Is it Just me...?

[Myr]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,146797,00.html

 

I've been reading about "sexual abuse" more and more lately. There has to be some balance to all this?

 

I remember being 13 and 14. If anyone... and I mean pretty much anyone offered to have sex with me, I would have jumped at the chance. At that age, you're hard pretty much all the time and even a knot in the fencepost looks good...

 

Is it any surpise then that boys are having sex? I don't believe in all this claptrap that a 13-yr old is too young to make a decision. Kids are growing up far faster than they used to and have access to an unbelievable amount information.

 

This is not to say that there isn't sexual abuse. There is. No means No whatever the age. But what about when they say yes and the government is saying "they aren't old enough to say yes". If you look at that age worldwide, it ranges anywhere from 12 to death penalty for gay sex. or 12 up for het stuff.

 

I can see where it is easy for a man to abuse a boy, as very little cooperation would be needed... but for a female to force a boy into sex... a certain amount of interest and cooperation is needed for that.

 

In a society where we want to charge a 12 yr old as an adult for murder and then turn around and charge a man with raping the the same boy because he's a child... (The King Brothers, Florida) It makes no sense. We're hellbent on saying the 12 yr old is an adult for everything and anything, except the ability to consent to sex.

 

Sorry for my rambling... what do you folks think?

[Umbathri]

"Kids are growing up far faster than they used to and have access to an unbelievable amount information."

 

 

Just because youve read the manuel on an AK-47 doesnt mean your ready to kill someone, take a few pot shots on a range somewhere by your self, sure. Life is just so full of unfair analogies isnt it?

 

 

"I remember being 13 and 14. If anyone... and I mean pretty much anyone offered to have sex with me, I would have jumped at the chance."

 

 

I agree completely. BUT there in lies the problem, most adults are very conscious of this fact, and could turn it to thier favor given the chance. This is where I see most of thier arguments coming from and its understandable.

 

For example, I KNEW I was gay at a very early age... I came to terms with it, and decieded to suppress it hardcore. I wrote a little story about it a long time ago, it was like a Light bulb going off. Im sure we all have similar epiphanies. But knowing didnt mean ready to engage, I certianly wasnt at the time.

 

But from the other angle the age of consent in some places is way too high.. 18 here in califa. I was ready befor that haha. I even tried to offer myself up to someone much older that I knew was gay. Either I was too subtle(hard to belive), or he just wasnt having it. So were not all... opps did I say we?

 

~Umbathri

[JotaJota31]

I believe this is wrong and that 13 years old is way to young to be making that kind of decision. Sure the boy may have wanted it, but I think the teacher should have had a lot more common sense and self control.

 

Kids may be more knowledgeable at a younger age now a days, but that does not make them any more mature or wise enough to make rational decisions about sexual relationships. They have their whole life to pursue these types of relationships, and by doing it so early, they have lost their innocent childhood (and there is no going back after you've stepped over that boundary).

 

This teacher can not honestly say she was doing this for the kids benefit, because if she really cared about him, she wouldn't have done it.

 

JJ

[Myr]

This teacher can not honestly say she was doing this for the kids benefit, because if she really cared about him, she wouldn't have done it. 

This is absolutely true.

There are two things to consider: back a few hundred years, a 13 yr old would have been married off and doing the kid-making thing. Biologically somewhere between 11 and 16 or so, nature primes the pump and turns on the juice for a boy.

 

Are most 13 yr olds capable of the decision? probably not. But some are. I know a rather large number of 18 yr olds that I think aren't mature enough to make that decision. I know a number of 20-somethings that aren't either. I also know a few youngers ones that I think are capable. The cookie cutter age thing is my problem.

 

What is so magic about being 16 years and 364 days old and not being able to legally consent to sex in NY, but the next day, you can. What happened overnight? Age laws need a more practical application. Perhaps this story was a bad example because of the authority thing, but there are others.

[Aleric]

I think most of these laws exist because the majority of the people

is straight and very badly informed. There is pressure from the

side of religion and media. The bad information means for example

that 90% of the people think with 'sex with a minor' about f**king

the child, where only the pleasure of the adult man counts (ie, rape).

They simply don't understand that 'sex' can be adjusted to the

experience of someone. Two boys of 13 that are experimenting

almost never have "sex", they just jack off mutually.

 

However, when a boy of 13 would have 'sex' at their own level (ie,

only jacking off) with an adult, then it is clear to me that this adult

can talk the kid into ANYTHING - including f**king. A kid of that age

is simply no match for an adult here. It wouldn't be rape, not at all,

but it is also not the case that I think a kid can say 'no' in a situation

like that. Remains the question if they are 'ready' for it or not.

After all, it's a pretty personal experience and I am inclined to think

that sex should indeed only happen when one is 100% concenting

and there is no pressure whatsoever. Some kids will be ready

(and willing) for whatever at that age, and others will not. But, which

adults can be trusted to not pressure their lover? That is a very

difficult problem. The straight (or rather, non-pedophile) majority

just thinks "what the f**K - just forbid it. THAT is at least not bad

for the kid". It's very easy to just forbid it, much and much easier

than judging each case separately in detail.

 

Anyway, it's not a simple problem. Relationships can be extremely

complex in a psychological way. Think about those islamitic women

that are beaten up and suppressed by their husband (have to think

of that cause its in the media a lot over here), some may not even

leave the house. Those wives are not children, they are mature adults.

Yet, they are "programmed" to accept all the abuse... The main problem

in a case of abuse is that often 'running away' is simply not an option

(too drastic - and when you'd fail in running away COMPLETELY and

instantly... the fear of failure for a successful 100% cut off of a relationship

can make it very hard).

 

I can think of a society in which children of 12 or

13 are allowed to do what they like sexually, but only when it would be

so normal and accepted that it would be easy to talk about any

type of stress in such a relationship: friends at school and parents should think

it is ok and normal and a relationship should only be with people from

which it is easy to run away from (ie, not with a school teacher).

This point of view would defend to start with (officially) allowing sex of

minors when the age diffference is not too large, say at most 2 years till

both are over 16.

 

Nevertheless, start with teaching the majority the difference between sex (games)

and rape - cause they don't even seem to understand that!

Edited February 10, 2005 by Aleric

[DomLuka]

While I think these laws are meant to protect children, and I can never agree with an adult having sex with a child, I do think that some of the laws regarding consensual sex are ridiculous.

 

Obviously, it is a lot harder for a child to say no to an adult, especially an authority figure, and whether it is consensual or not I

[Bill W]

I think the main point here is a uniformity in when a child is considered old enough to make decisions and be responsible. When I was growing up, you could drink at 18, be drafted into the service at 18, but couldn't vote until 21. Something was wrong. As Myr said, we want to hold children responsible and treat them as adults for certain crimes once they've reached 12, saying they have the cognitive development to understand what they were doing, but then turn around and claim those same children don't have the cognitive development to decide if they want to have sex and with whom.

 

The second issue is dealing with adults in authority positions (parents, care givers, cops, teachers, etc) and those with no direct influence over a child. Many states/countries have always noted that difference and adjusted the laws to differenciate between the two (such as the limit was 2years higher if they person was dealing with someone in a position of power/authority over them.)

 

Remember, until 40 or 50 years ago, children where getting married in their early teens and many remained happily married for many, many years. Were they more intelligent or more mature than today's youth? I don't think so, but society does treat them differently now. The problem is, society is trying to write hard, fast laws to regulate various issues, when we know there are difference within each age group. Some thirteen-year olds are more mature than others in their late teens or early twenties and some in their late teens or early twenties are more immature than a typical young teen. The problem lies in the fact that you can't select a number that will fit all cases, as can be seen in the various state/country laws were that age differnce varies. Even within the US, some states allow the age of consent to be as low as 14, while others have pushed it as high as they could, using 18.

 

Although we won't settle this issue here, there is much to be considered. The biggest problem lies in the fact that we keep playing to the lowest common denominator within age groups when deciding some problems, then turn around and use a different standard when involved with other topics. Such inconsistencies cause confusion, which leads to even more problems.

[wep363]

hmmmm, time for my two cents. I remember the movie, "The Summer of Forth Two." Anyone remember that one. Teenage boys having sex is not a new thing. As for if it's right or wrong it depends on where you live and if you get caught. Years ago it was swept under the carpet. Now a days it's posted for the world to see on CNN. Clearly adults can exploite teenage boys into having sex. They must be heald accountable. Just ask MJ.

[Myr]

There is an army of former boy-actors that attest to MJ being a great guy and having never attempted to fiddle with them...

[Umbathri]

Said boy actors are much less likely to take a million dollars and shut the hell up, so maybe hes just not a stupid as he looks.

 

~Umbathri

Edited February 15, 2005 by Umbathri

[Myr]

I don't know. It looks like a vendetta to me on the part of the DA. I'll wait until I hear some more evidence before I pass judgement on MJ.

[Crackerwriter]

To be honest, and trying to take a detatched view of the whole thing, the only people who will know the real truth are probably MJ and the boys concerned.

 

I think it's quite possible that MJ has never quite grown up mentally as far as loving other children goes. It's quite possible that whatever happened to HIM in his own childhood has left an indellible mark on him, and that he just wants to still be a young boy himself, and can't see that his actions and ideas are inappropriate at his current age.

 

From an outside view, it appears they've got his cross already built, and the trial is a mere front for what seems to be a determined effort on the part of the authorities to nail him to it.

 

I remember seeing the interview they filmed during 'The Making of Thriller' with the director, (was it Landis?) and how child-like MJ appeared then. It was as though he still wanted to be treated like a child then. Recent events are not a surprise to me when you look at it in that context. It's quite possible that he's being manipulated by his advisors who are getting as big a slice of the cake while they can, before the bubble bursts.

 

If there was irrefutable evidence, then I would say fair enough, he's guilty. I just wonder how much has been fabricated.

 

Incidentally, I am not particularly a MJ fan. I just don't feel without knowing the truth, I can condemn the man unfairly.

 

 

To return to the main point, I think that individual boys mature at all different ages into young men, and you can't truly define an age at which a young male is mature enough to take his own decisions on having sex.

The law has dictated an age, erring on the side of caution at which under normal circumstances, a young man ought to be able to make his own mind up. Unfortunately, some can and some can't. I think it's highly likely, though not a firm rule, that a male who is destined to be truly gay, knows what he wants to do at a far earlier age than someone say who might be slightly bisexual and still confused over his feelings.

I just don't think there is a hard and fast rule here, so the law errs on the side of caution.

[Umbathri]

My little comment wasnt meant as a condemning judgment, just refuting one aspect of the whole. While I cant dispute the mans genius in music and marketing (Im also far from a fan). I do belive most if not all the charges are possibly being blown out of proportion, yes the cross is already assembled. But every lie is based partly in fact. MJ may want to act as a child and sometimes treated as a child, but as an adult he should be aware of certian bounderies, not all of which I personally agree with but they are the law.

 

I have tried to distance myself from the whole affair but its hard to not form some opinion. Either the man feels he is outside the law (and rightfully so to a point), or hes not fully cognizant of how inappropriate some of his situations are. Either way he needs to take a big step back and reevaluate his life, or the state may force him to. We all have our demons, we all have our flaws, but having the freedom to indulge in our every whim can be dangerous, and will undoubtedly appear insane to some.

Thats just my opinion of course, not based on any facts, from one diseased mind to another.

 

~Umbathri

behind the gibbering mask

[zero78245d]

I have run accross this topic in other forums and generally the comments run in the same form. The "Age of Consent" topic is one that can push many buttons and start mini-wars.

 

That being said, IMHO, the biggest problem is how society views a juveniles actions and the repercussions visited upon him or her if the knowledge of sexual activity becomes known. I mentor sixth, seventh, and eighth grade (middle school) students and one of the questions that always seems to come up is when can I have sex. Of course, physically they are capable now. My answer to them usually involves a mini lecture on STDs and pregnancy prevention, then I try to provoke their own thoughts on the question of readiness. One item I bring up is: "Are you ready for your parents to know you are sexually active?" That usually brings them up short with 'no telling' stutters and such but I counter with at least two people will know the secret, and a secret is not a secret if more than one is in on it.

 

I was asked an interesting question the other day. A seventh grader was complaining all his friends were riding him because he asked a 12 YO girl (sixth grade) to a school dance. They accused him of robbing the cradle. As it turns out he had barely turned 13 himself, just missing the cut off for waiting a year to start school. This indicates to me that the societal stigmas of age vs sex are apparent even at the middle school level.

 

Just my two cents.

 

 

[reapersharvest]

Age differences are more apparent at an age where everyone is separated into grades. If an adult has sex with a minor, assuming it's consensual, then it's statutory rape (sp?), If two minors have sex, also consenual, then it's sexual misconduct, a far lesser charge. At least that's the way it is in NY, and it makes sense to me.

[Bill W]

Umbathri, not all lies are built on some truth... they are also built on greed, revenge, jealousy, etc.

[Umbathri]

Umbathri, not all lies are built on some truth... they are also built on greed, revenge, jealousy, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree, but its an old axiom I myself never fully agreed with but it fit my point =)

 

 

~Umbathri

[wep363]

:2hands: I know that Kids have sex as i was a sexual active Kid. Even before i can remember i was sexual active with other kids. Never with another adult. Parents must know that kids have sex with each other because they were once kids!

 

I think it's ok to make it legal for kids to have sex.