Jump to content

Star Trek: To Canon or not to Canon?


W_L

Canon  

4 members have voted

  1. 1. Is Canon important to Sci-Fi stories and universes?

    • Yes
      4
    • No
      0
    • Depends, please explain
      0
  2. 2. As Canon is usually a religious concept, should stories hold that level of devotion?

    • Yes
      2
    • No
      0
    • Depends, please explain
      2


Recommended Posts

Star Trek fans have been known for alot of things: being big tech dreaming nerds (kind of true, but hey we invented MP3 players/smartphopnes/PC/3D printers), overly territorial over Sci-Fi (also kind of true, the first internet discussion boards like GA we're flame boards between Star Trek and Star Wars fans), and above all else overly zealous devout Star Trek Canon followers (That is an interesting point)

 

Star Trek's TV show is mostly secular and at times anti-religious; though, Deep Space Nine was very religiously tolerant and multifaceted, other series before and after were far less.  The fandom though has a very strong opinion to established stories and timelines of the series, which like any religion has become Canon, or official history/"right way of viewing things".

 

However, new series like Star Trek Discovery has been departing from that mold of Canon and CBS, the real world copyright owners, have been pushing to eliminate the constraints that Canon has forced onto their product by fans of older material. As I was viewing Youtube, I caught this interesting brief on the history of Star Trek and its issues in current installments

 

 

 

Personally, I am not a fan of the new material, but I can understand why they want to leave Canon of the older material.

 

As a Sci-Fi writer, Canon is not something I've had to deal with yet as my stories are still quite young and relatively speaking not widely popular. However, I do intend to maintain Canon if possible in future stories I create in my single universe, if there's differences, I'd most likely made them intentionally to demonstrate different perspectives, "one man's villain is another man's hero".

 

That's not the case with Star Trek, but is that wrong?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
  • Site Administrator

Canon is important in science fiction and fantasy stories.  It is the rules of the world and the history of the world.

For example, if the rule of my world is that when Winter Comes, the dead will walk and that was the rule for 5 books ( or 5 seasons) and then Winter Comes and it's actually a pizza party because there are new authors writing book 6/season 6 and they want to change things because the new fans hate walking dead things but love pizza. it royally hacks off fans of books 1-5.

 

In the case of Star Trek, you had an Original Season 50 years ago.  It created a world with its best guess on the future.  It stayed alive long enough for Science Fiction to come into its own and it popped out 5 movies before starting the next generation.  So it added 7 more seasons in this joint world while making an active effort to explain the predictive glitches from the original series.  Then Deep Space 9, Voyager and Enterprise and Movies 6-10.  All adding to this shared world and all making an effort to make sure everything fit.  This is the world of Star Trek.  They rebooted the movies and I guess you can say took a lot of the Star Trek out of Star Trek, but at least give an explanation as to why.   The Star Trek, Star Trek Are You *bleep* Kidding Me?,  and Star Trek Beyond are more action movies that simultaneously hit the right notes with the relationships between Kirk/Bones/Spock, while pissing on the canon.   They were good movies, but not really Star Trek.

 

Now, I own on DVD/Blu-ray/ or 4K disk every season of every show and every movie in Star Trek...  but I have point blank refused to watch Star Trek Discovery.  I didn't want to subscribe to CBS all access so I could watch it.   I've already got cable, Netflix, Hulu and Amazon Prime.  Why do I need another service?  Okay, it's Star Trek, I can do that so I can watch Star Trek... and then the actors went all in on pushing their obnoxious politics.  I'm sick of that personally.  So, I'm pushing back in the one way I can... I'm not buying their stuff.

 

And that was before watching the video.   I'm glad I gave it a skip.  I've still not watched Star Wars Last Jedi either.  I was really meh on Star Wars 7: Mary Sue and Darth Millenial Kill Han Solo.  Oh, and for killing Star Trek Enterprise when it FINALLY stopped being meh, Les Monves can burn in hell.

 

Canon is like the recipe at your favorite diner.  You go because you love the taste.  When the new cook comes in and doesn't use that recipe it pisses off the people that loved the recipe but doesn't attract enough people to replace the ones you lost.  I come for the recipe, but I try new things when I'm there... but if you take away the thing that brought me there, or worse ruin it (Hello Star Wars and Ghostbusters!), then you lose the thing that would make me try your new recipe.  Then what you are doing is making New Coke.  Nobody wants the crap you are peddling and calling it Coke doesn't make it Coke unless you use the original recipe.

  • Like 3
Link to comment

@Myr I agree with everything you said about the Star Trek franchise. I did watch the first half season 1 of Discovery. (When someone downloaded it, and showed it for us.) All I can say about it, was it had nice eye candy, but is chocked-full-of-political-bias. I haven't watched another episode since. (I did like the Head Engineer, and the main Doctor being an out Gay couple.)

  • Like 1
Link to comment

@Myr To me new recipe doesn't need to get rid of what you like to be good:

 

My favorite diner does a really good Meaty omlette, some of the old timers who've been there since 1980's say western omlette was better. You see both omlettes are in practice using the same foundations of an omlette, just different ingredients to give people different interpretations. Recently, they've tried experimenting and offering Frittatas. People aren't going there for Frittatas, we like omlettes even though the ingredients might be similar, the style of cooking and placement of fillings is different.

 

Same goes with Star Trek, I was more a fan of DS9 than TNG or TOS before it or Voyager and Enterprise after it. DS9 was a western frontier fort with a gateway to unexplored lands set in space, versus TNG/TOS being straight up westerns travelling from planet to planet finding adventures. Also DS9 had the 1st black Captain, but didn't push it on fans, he was just there and his heritage mattered, but it was not what made him the character we enjoyed. DS9 also had the 1st transgender/bisexual character in Jadzia Dax, she was LGBT breakout character, unafraid to be male/female/gay/straight without having to represent us all for mainstream. She could also kick ass when the time was needed. That's the show Discovery is trying to be, but it is too in your face to become. Canon to me is what binds all universes of a story together, it's fundamental glue of reality, but not perspective.

 

Even in fantasy, I could write a story set from the vantage point of Sauron in LOTR instead of Hobbits, viewing the wizards and mankind as evil, greedy, selfish, and prideful, while seeing orcs and my black riders as the good guys with absolute devotion and faith in their cause, who just had the bad luck of losing the war. Would that be accepted by majority? Probably not, but as long as I am not pushing that perspective on majority as some have begun to do with their own views (making themselves as elitist as those they claim to fight in the process).

 

Canon is absolute rational facts, perspective on those facts may not be absolute based on your side of an argument.

 

As a fan of Turtledove's Alternate History novels, I am a realist to ideology with my own set of opinions as to right and wrong defined by neither majority or minority opinion. Science fiction must rise to the challenge of truth and facts in our era of falsehoods and double standards on both sides of an elite spectrum of SJW vs. Alt-Right truthers. Otherwise, Sci-Fi and fantasy along with many other forms of popular media are no better than an alternate religion of fictions.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...

Update:

 

@Myr and @BHopper2


Les Moonves is now out at CBS, wohoo!

 

Star Trek might finally be able to be run properly, I wish Manny Coto could come back and helm the Picard Series or become the general Star Trek Executive director like Rick Berman was. He did a great job in Star trek Enterprise's final season, reshaping things to where Star Trek should be heading based on the prequel format.

Edited by W_L
  • Like 1
Link to comment
2 minutes ago, W_L said:

Update:

 

@Myr and @BHopper2


Les Moonves is now out at CBS, wohoo!

 

Star Trek might finally be able to be run properly, I wish Manny Coto could come back and helm the Picard Series or become the general Star Trek Executive director like Rick Berman was. He did a great job in Star trek Enterprise's final season, reshaping things to where Star Trek should be heading based on the prequel format.

My main issue with Enterprise was the final episode. All its other issues are secondary to that.

 

Speaking of Prequels, Star Trek Online is bringing Discovery in as a new starting point for the game. It will like the Romulan, Klingon, 23rd Century Starfleet, and the Jem'hadar, starting points with a special storyline and private areas that only DISCO toons can be in, and then merge with the 26th century Starfleet.

Link to comment
20 hours ago, BHopper2 said:

My main issue with Enterprise was the final episode. All its other issues are secondary to that.

 

Speaking of Prequels, Star Trek Online is bringing Discovery in as a new starting point for the game. It will like the Romulan, Klingon, 23rd Century Starfleet, and the Jem'hadar, starting points with a special storyline and private areas that only DISCO toons can be in, and then merge with the 26th century Starfleet.

 

They tried that with Kelvin timeline, aka JJ-verse, didn't pan out either for Star Trek Online.

 

Star Trek has a rich history, explore the final frontier, first before branching out to the flavor of month. One reason why I have given up on MMO's, including Eve Online, the developers need to give players some time to breath. Too many new features, too many new aspects, it just makes game daunting to play if even possible to play.

 

Les Moonves cancelled Star Trek Enterprise after Manny Coto turned it around in the 4th season, the final episode was actually done by Moonves' lackey Rick Berman. He called it a "farewell valentines" to fans of Star Trek, most fans knew it was the middle finger by putting TNG's cast on Enterprise just to screw with continuity, character development, and say to fans "Thanks for giving us millions for 20 years, suckers".

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment

Us writers have another name for Canon. We call it continuity,

 

Continuity errors in novels are death and we work like hell to, if not eliminate them, keep them to a barest minimum.

 

When a prequel like Shiterprise... err I mean Enterprise is done on the cheap with a bum of the month cast, LOT's of the fans will simply ignore it.

 

Don't even ask me what I think of the God awful abomination Discovery is. You don't even want to know what TOS and NextGen fans think of that reeking caldron of excretia.

Edited by jamessavik
  • Like 1
  • Love 1
Link to comment
56 minutes ago, jamessavik said:

Us writers have another name for Canon. We call it continuity,

 

Continuity errors in novels are death and we work like hell to, if not eliminate them, keep them to a barest minimum.

 

When a prequel like Shiterprise... err I mean Enterprise is done on the cheap with a bum of the month cast, LOT's of the fans will simply ignore it.

 

Don't even ask me what I think of the God awful abomination Discovery is. You don't even want to know what TOS and NextGen fans think of that reeking caldron of excretia.

 

You know James, I've never heard you talk about Deep Space Nine.

 

We're both fans of Babylon 5, but we rarely ever touched upon the black sheep of Star Trek. (And no I am not race bating you with that comment, it's just a common fact most Star Trek fans think of DS9 as too dark and gritty with episodes like "in the Pale Moonlight" polarizing people's opinions)

 

TOS and TNG were fine for their times, but I grew up at the end of TNG and start of DS9. To me, DS9 was a decade ahead of its time, dealing with issues like terrorism, homeland security, secret surveillance, ethnic issues, and covert ops that would be normal for shows like the Wire years later.

 

Neither Voyager, nor Enterprise ever recaptured that impressive look into our current world. As for Discovery, it can't emulate what it doens't understand from its predecessor.

 

To me, Star Trek can't just be about traveling around the universe every week anymore after DS9, after that series, Star Trek has a real story and a real universe to explore from various powers gaming each other to get an upper hand to spies and warriors fighting for causes way above their heads.

 

I understand why old fans want adventures of the week, but ask yourselves this question, don't you get bored of that stuff with the heroes winning every time or other "normal" plots that reset characters and want to know what happens afterwards to that alien of the week or the wider universe. DS9 answered that in spades.

 

Even though I hate Discovery, I also have grown tired of the Orville as well, it's a cheap comedic ride, but there's no real exploration of what I care about in the universe itself based on the plots that have already occurred.

 

Another thing about Canon/Continuity, there needs to be logical progression to a story, stagnation leads nowhere.

Edited by W_L
  • Like 2
Link to comment
12 hours ago, W_L said:

 

You know James, I've never heard you talk about Deep Space Nine.

 

 

Because Douche Space 9 was a cheap and cheesy rip off of Babylon 5. 

 

Paramount passed on B5 but decided to make Derp Space 9 when Warner Brothers purchased and produced B5.

 

There are too many points of comparison to make it anything but a rip off:
 

  1. Both series are named after a space station name with a single-digit number
  2. Both series premiered in 1993, and were set aboard space stations that were hubs of interstellar trade and politics.
  3. Both stations were located beside portals to distant places. (B5 is near a hyperspace "jumpgate"; DS9 guarded the mouth of a wormhole.)
  4. Both series originally featured a shapeshifter character; however, Babylon 5 dropped that element before filming, replacing it with occasional characters using various illusory and camouflage mechanisms.
  5. Both started off with unmarried commanders haunted by a recent conflict.
  6. Commanders of each station had lost their wives before the series started. (Sisko and Sheridan)
  7. Both men's wives reappeared during the series under the control of a more powerful race. (Sheridan's wife returns in person under the control of the Shadows, while the Prophets speak through Sisko's wife in visions.)
  8. Both commanders remarried during the shows run.
  9. Both commanders had a girlfriend who was a freighter captain, Carolyn Sykes for Commander Sinclair and Kasidy Yates for Captain Sisko.
  10. The commander of each station eventually became a religious figure who fulfilled a prophecy, advised by enigmatic aliens who were regarded as spiritual beings.
  11. Both commanders (Sisko and Sheridan) "ascended" to become noncorporeal lifeforms in the series finale.
  12. In both series the spiritual beings (the Vorlons, the Prophets) had an enemy (the Shadows, the Pah Wraiths) generally viewed as evil spirits by other races, with whom they had been at war for millennia.
  13. Both series build up to a war between Humans and a militarily powerful, hard-to-detect enemy (the invisible Shadows, the shapeshifting Founders).
  14. Both series had a sarcastic, cynical but dedicated head of security who started out as perceptive and extremely competent, but later succumbed to insecurity and compulsion (Garibaldi's drinking, Odo's link with the female Shapeshifter)
  15. Both series had an idealistic young doctor with a hidden secret (Bashir's genetic enhancement, Franklin's involvement with the Underground). Both doctors also had strained relationships with their fathers.
  16. Both series involved the use of genetically engineered diseases, designed to work against a specific group (Changelings, Markab, Human and Narn Telepaths, others) as a means of control or genocide.
  17. The second-in-command of each station was a woman with a hot temper who had lost a family member in a war.
  18. Central to each series were two alien races, one of which had until recently occupied and oppressed the home planet of the other. Furthermore:
    • The oppressed race was a deeply religious one.
    • The oppressors in both series were later manipulated by a powerful alien race to achieve its goals.
    • This manipulation occurred via a regular character in the series belonging to the oppressor race, who vacillated between 'good' and 'evil' through the course of the series, ultimately being taken over completely by powerful evil forces, which eventually led to their untimely deaths.
    • The plot of each series eventually centered around a war against the oppressors and those who manipulated them.
    • These wars resulted in the devastations of the former-oppressors' homeworlds.
  19. Both series involved an alien race who had once been humanity's main enemies, but were now strong (but often troublesome) allies (Klingons, Minbari)
  20. Both series involve a character who must deal with the conflict between their alien heritage, and their adopted human qualities (Worf, Delenn)
  21. Each series added a small, tough starship, each the first of its kind, during the third season: DS9's Defiant and B5's White Star.
  22. Each series includes a sinister organization working within the humans' government: DS9's Section 31 and B5's Bureau 13, not to mention Psi Corps and Nightwatch as well.
  23. Each series had a male character named "Dukat" (though B5's is spelled "Dukhat") and each series had a female character named "Lyta" (although DS9's is spelled "Leeta").
  24. Each Station was administered by an Earth based government (Earth Alliance in B5, the Federation in DS9) but was not in that government's territory.
  25. While each stations was administered by Earth, that administration depended upon the sufferance of a second, deeply spiritual, race. (Minbari in B5, Bajorans in DS9)
  26. In the first season finales of both series, the character frequently regarded as the "everyman" (Miles O'Brien on DS9, Michael Garibaldi on B5) is betrayed by his assistant in an assassination attempt.
  27. Both series have a character who is the sidekick from an egocentric culture (Vir the Centauri and Rom the Ferengi). They both have values that are more "human" than those of their culture and are therefore seen as poor excuses for members of their race. Despite all this, they both end up as the leaders of their race by the end of the series.
  28. Both series featured a six-episode story arc at the beginning of their penultimate seasons that chronicled a major turning point in their respective wars (the defeat of the Shadows and Vorlons in B5, and the retaking of the station from the Dominion in DS9).
  • Like 1
Link to comment
12 hours ago, jamessavik said:

 

Because Douche Space 9 was a cheap and cheesy rip off of Babylon 5. 

 

Paramount passed on B5 but decided to make Derp Space 9 when Warner Brothers purchased and produced B5.

 

There are too many points of comparison to make it anything but a rip off:
 

  1. Both series are named after a space station name with a single-digit number
  2. Both series premiered in 1993, and were set aboard space stations that were hubs of interstellar trade and politics.
  3. Both stations were located beside portals to distant places. (B5 is near a hyperspace "jumpgate"; DS9 guarded the mouth of a wormhole.)
  4. Both series originally featured a shapeshifter character; however, Babylon 5 dropped that element before filming, replacing it with occasional characters using various illusory and camouflage mechanisms.
  5. Both started off with unmarried commanders haunted by a recent conflict.
  6. Commanders of each station had lost their wives before the series started. (Sisko and Sheridan)
  7. Both men's wives reappeared during the series under the control of a more powerful race. (Sheridan's wife returns in person under the control of the Shadows, while the Prophets speak through Sisko's wife in visions.)
  8. Both commanders remarried during the shows run.
  9. Both commanders had a girlfriend who was a freighter captain, Carolyn Sykes for Commander Sinclair and Kasidy Yates for Captain Sisko.
  10. The commander of each station eventually became a religious figure who fulfilled a prophecy, advised by enigmatic aliens who were regarded as spiritual beings.
  11. Both commanders (Sisko and Sheridan) "ascended" to become noncorporeal lifeforms in the series finale.
  12. In both series the spiritual beings (the Vorlons, the Prophets) had an enemy (the Shadows, the Pah Wraiths) generally viewed as evil spirits by other races, with whom they had been at war for millennia.
  13. Both series build up to a war between Humans and a militarily powerful, hard-to-detect enemy (the invisible Shadows, the shapeshifting Founders).
  14. Both series had a sarcastic, cynical but dedicated head of security who started out as perceptive and extremely competent, but later succumbed to insecurity and compulsion (Garibaldi's drinking, Odo's link with the female Shapeshifter)
  15. Both series had an idealistic young doctor with a hidden secret (Bashir's genetic enhancement, Franklin's involvement with the Underground). Both doctors also had strained relationships with their fathers.
  16. Both series involved the use of genetically engineered diseases, designed to work against a specific group (Changelings, Markab, Human and Narn Telepaths, others) as a means of control or genocide.
  17. The second-in-command of each station was a woman with a hot temper who had lost a family member in a war.
  18. Central to each series were two alien races, one of which had until recently occupied and oppressed the home planet of the other. Furthermore:
    • The oppressed race was a deeply religious one.
    • The oppressors in both series were later manipulated by a powerful alien race to achieve its goals.
    • This manipulation occurred via a regular character in the series belonging to the oppressor race, who vacillated between 'good' and 'evil' through the course of the series, ultimately being taken over completely by powerful evil forces, which eventually led to their untimely deaths.
    • The plot of each series eventually centered around a war against the oppressors and those who manipulated them.
    • These wars resulted in the devastations of the former-oppressors' homeworlds.
  19. Both series involved an alien race who had once been humanity's main enemies, but were now strong (but often troublesome) allies (Klingons, Minbari)
  20. Both series involve a character who must deal with the conflict between their alien heritage, and their adopted human qualities (Worf, Delenn)
  21. Each series added a small, tough starship, each the first of its kind, during the third season: DS9's Defiant and B5's White Star.
  22. Each series includes a sinister organization working within the humans' government: DS9's Section 31 and B5's Bureau 13, not to mention Psi Corps and Nightwatch as well.
  23. Each series had a male character named "Dukat" (though B5's is spelled "Dukhat") and each series had a female character named "Lyta" (although DS9's is spelled "Leeta").
  24. Each Station was administered by an Earth based government (Earth Alliance in B5, the Federation in DS9) but was not in that government's territory.
  25. While each stations was administered by Earth, that administration depended upon the sufferance of a second, deeply spiritual, race. (Minbari in B5, Bajorans in DS9)
  26. In the first season finales of both series, the character frequently regarded as the "everyman" (Miles O'Brien on DS9, Michael Garibaldi on B5) is betrayed by his assistant in an assassination attempt.
  27. Both series have a character who is the sidekick from an egocentric culture (Vir the Centauri and Rom the Ferengi). They both have values that are more "human" than those of their culture and are therefore seen as poor excuses for members of their race. Despite all this, they both end up as the leaders of their race by the end of the series.
  28. Both series featured a six-episode story arc at the beginning of their penultimate seasons that chronicled a major turning point in their respective wars (the defeat of the Shadows and Vorlons in B5, and the retaking of the station from the Dominion in DS9).

 

Still, even as a rip off, it had its merits.

 

While I preferred Babylon 5, Star trek Deep Space Nine had its moments: For one thing, it was more balanced on religious ideas than Babylon 5. Both atheists and believers in religious ideas were portrayed well in season 1 finale "In the Hands of the Prophets".

 

Also, when dealing with post-Holocaust  issues, DS9 did a better job than Babylon 5 in addressing the old wounds from the Earth Dilgar war. DS9's "Duet" and "Cardassians" were miles better than Babylon 5's "Deathwalker", which dealt with war criminals, and Babylon 5's "Parliament of Dreams", which dealt with the rights of children and abusive parental oversight with religion.

 

Later seasons of Babylon 5 were better in terms of discussing issues like the Death Penalty and the costs of war, Babylon 5 episode "GROPOS" remain my favorite epsiode of Sci-Fi on this subject even now.  However, DS9 had its own standouts with episodes like "Past Tense", dealing with social problems and an underfunded mental health care system and poverty in America, and "Homefront" foretold the reality of our war on terror being an all consuming affair, years before 9/11.

 

Lastly, even though I am not going to make this a political discussion, "Far Beyond the Stars" was probably the most ambitious Science Fiction idea of Star Trek going not only for overt social commentary, but something so fundamentally groundbreaking. It dealt with issues that aren't limited to 1950's and let's be honest resonate in 2018 as much as 1950's Harlem. Beyond the the obvious for SJW's and progressive, I actually loved the meta-reality on Science Fiction that the writers basically drop on the audience. Science Fiction is the medium of ambitious dreamers far ahead of their time's limited understanding and views, some Sci-Fi writers hide their social commentary with sci-fi gimmicks like robots with Asimov or aliens like Heinlein. Still there are others with even more fantastic willing to dream bigger and write far beyond the realities of the day.

 

DS9's "Far Beyond the Stars" ranks among my favorite sci-fi episodes for all series, not just because it talks about racism, but because it explores the truths behind our medium as Sci-Fi writers. There are those who hide humanity's truth behind plot devices and technobabble, then there's those who show the naked truth of human existence with warts and all. Good Sci-Fi isn't just an adventure in an exotic land.

 

Of Course, overall Babylon 5 handled its war arcs and story far better and more consistent than Star Trek DS9 did, beyond standout episodes, like most Star Trek, it was too inconsistent at times. Still, even DS9 had redeeming values and good ideas.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
  • Site Administrator
17 hours ago, W_L said:

Of Course, overall Babylon 5 handled its war arcs and story far better and more consistent than Star Trek DS9 did, beyond standout episodes, like most Star Trek, it was too inconsistent at times. Still, even DS9 had redeeming values and good ideas.

 

Deep Space Nine copied the story arc after seeing how successful Babylon 5 was.  In fact, most shows with a story arc these days built off that success.  Most shows prior to Babylon 5's success were episodic. with little to no connection from episode to episode.

 

I have DVDs of all of both shows.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
8 hours ago, Myr said:

 

Deep Space Nine copied the story arc after seeing how successful Babylon 5 was.  In fact, most shows with a story arc these days built off that success.  Most shows prior to Babylon 5's success were episodic. with little to no connection from episode to episode.

 

I have DVDs of all of both shows.

 

Well if we consider storytelling using "arcs" as copying, then JMS borrowed his ideas from Soap Operas like "Dallas" and "Dynasty" from the 1980's, which in turn borrowed ideas from earlier dramas like "As the World turns" and "Days of our Lives". For some people, like @Drew Espinosa :D , Tele-Novellas were staples of dramatic fiction growing up.

 

What JMS did better in Babylon 5 was direction based on a centralized story in a science fiction setting, he wanted to do . He wrote a Story "Bible" detailing how he wanted the show to begin and end with key events thought through years in advance. That's the gold nugget he created, which Netflix and other streaming services have been able to adopt into actual TV shows using novels and comic books as their basis for storytelling.

 

It's a double edged sword though,  @Myr.  Like Walking Dead was originally based off the successful comic book and drew millions of fans, including myself, into following a live action journey across a zombie wasteland of former America. However, they began shifting storylines, altering plots, and today they are nothing like the source material they're based off. (Killing Carl was just the last straw, it's fine to be edgy, but if you are based on a source material, at least keep the spirit of the story. Carl Grimes was the future of the current comic books and has major roles, which the TV execs killed  for hock value at the expense of plot development)

 

If I ever get a chance to do a TV show based off my own source material, I'll explicitly ask for and have in exact writing "creative control and final approval".

 

JMS had that in his pocket for Babylon 5 as well,

  • Like 1
Link to comment
  • Site Administrator
5 hours ago, W_L said:

 

JMS had that in his pocket for Babylon 5 as well,

Yes he did.  Which is why Crusade was only 13 episodes.  TNT wouldn't let him tell his story and kept asking for more T&A, so he said F and U and the series ended.

 

Soap operas.  Seriously? 😛

  • Like 1
Link to comment
6 hours ago, Myr said:

Yes he did.  Which is why Crusade was only 13 episodes.  TNT wouldn't let him tell his story and kept asking for more T&A, so he said F and U and the series ended.

 

Soap operas.  Seriously? 😛

 

I am just being real, most people contribute the idea of Babylon 5 success to Arc-story formula, which has already existed for years on Soap Operas.

 

Star Trek DS9 bought that idea, but just glossed over the real reason, planned storytelling.

 

That's why several newer series have succeeded based on original source material, you tell a complete story from end to end without the limitations of the episode of the week issue or various writer's interpretation. A Singular destiny is easier to accept than "many Worlds" interpretation :D

 

Personally, I'd love if someone would do Turtledove series, maybe the "invasion-Homeward Bound" story series involving aliens invading earth during World War II. In that story series, the aliens possess 21st century technology and thought they could overwhelm humanity, who they had sent probes to investigate back during the dark ages. In that series mid-20th century technology stalemated modern 21st century tech to the point where a nuclear cold war ensured between the alien invaders conquered territories and an odd alliance of US, Soviet, Nazi Germany, and British Empire, who among themselves are also antagonistic to one another.

 

Turtledove is controversial as a sci-fi writer, but he is not afraid to write about mankind and our ideologies openly and without a false pretense of superiority. Even JMS had bias in Babylon 5 and Star Trek was and still is bias towards certain views.

Edited by W_L
  • Like 1
Link to comment
  • Site Administrator
1 hour ago, W_L said:

Even JMS had bias in Babylon 5 and Star Trek was and still is bias towards certain views.

Well duh.  All humans have bias of one sort or another. lol.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
1 hour ago, W_L said:

Even JMS had bias in Babylon 5 and Star Trek was and still is bias towards certain views.

One of the themes that were leaked about STD (an apt abbreviation), was that the Federation's Utopia Society Fails, and breaks down because Socialism never works. They screwed the pooch and took it out to appease the SJWs. I think that would have been a saving grace for the show if they kept it in.

Link to comment
10 minutes ago, Myr said:

Well duh.  All humans have bias of one sort or another. lol.

 

True, but if you aren't willing to show the other side of the coin, you're no better than them. JMS was bias on his views of distortions using news media by dictatorial governments from episodes like "And Now for a Word" and "illusion of truth", but in the same light, he had his main protagonist in Season 4 episode "Bargains, Rumors, and Lies" do the exact same thing in order to secure military support. He showed two sides of the same coin, both are ethically wrong, but realistically one is worse than the other.

 

That's where the problem lies with Star Trek, in most cases it tries to take a moral and ethical high ground that really does not exist without context of the other side. DS9 at least drew the line on this and tried to do better with "In the Pale Moonlight" and "inter Arma Enim Silent Leges", but Star Trek fans of the day were unwilling to accept the "quid pro quo" reality of moral relativity or the "greater good" argument.

 

This didn't even start with Star Trek Discovery or SJW modern viewer, Star Trek III invalidated this years before with Spock's sacrifice being redundant, "needs of the one greater than needs of many" inversion was a crappy philosophy to appease fans from Star Trek II.

 

It's also true for a lot of TV shows that deal with sensitive and sensational subjects: for instance, there's often at least an obligatory "evil Nazi" episode. We've all seen it done to death, but there's so little understanding of what the Nazi/neo-nazis believe that make them repugnant. There's little critical thought to issues and SJW's scream bloody murder, when these "villains" aren't made cartoonish evil.  Good villains, even of the week, should be seductive, attractive, and ultimately destructive, because at the end of it all, hatred will fan reprisals and resistance that ushers conflict on greater scales.

 

Many Star Trek fans have been clamoring for years now that Federation should be entering a Civil War sooner rather than later post-Nemesis era, a socialist society with a military that is split between pacifists and militants with ambitious designs cannot exist indefinitely. If Kirk didn't stop the Presidential Assassination in Star Trek VI, a military coup would have succeeded.

 

Like I said, I am Turtledove fan and would love his novels to be made into a TV series, because he deals with issue in a good way, a real way that with some modern reflection could bridge many gaps in our society.

  • Like 1
Link to comment

Still to @Myr, @jamessavik, and @BHopper2, Deep Space Nine was the best Star Trek series for its time, better than Voyager, better than Enterprise, and something that Discovery tries to emulate but fails so badly

 

A youtube Trekker gave this assessment for DS9, we all know there was overlap with Babylon 5, but at least DS9 did a great story with its own voice

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
  • Site Administrator

Well, yes. like I said, I have ALL the Star Trek shows to date except Discovery.  I liked DS9 plenty.

It's just that I liked the tighter Babylon 5 story and science more. :)

 

  • Like 1
  • Love 1
Link to comment

Aside from the Abrams Star Trek and the Kelvin Timeline (Chris Pine is a much better James Kirk than William Shitnar ever was), TNG and DS9 were my two favorites. Voyager had promise, but it was basically a ripoff of several other stories, including a couple of Mangas. Enterprise and STD shouldn't even be called Star Trek.

Link to comment

From a writers perspective, B5 always struck me as writing with a plan.

 

DS9 seemed to make it up as they went along.

 

There are several big franchises that did that. Lost come to mind. Seasons 4 & 5 of BSG(2003).

 

Some series get away with it. 

  • Love 1
Link to comment
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Our Privacy Policy can be found here: Privacy Policy. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue..