A home grown readership or international?

[Luca E]

Any author seeking a wider readership could give a little thought to their story synopsis. Example: your story is about a boy who is a freshman. If you intend to capture a US American audience (and a few Asian countries), saying - Joe Smith was entering freshman year at James Western High School... is fine. If you want a wider, international audience, it's not a great description. Why? Because a freshman is not universally known. Maybe a UK reader might think "fresher," but it's not a commonly used term for a first year university student and has nothing to do with a freshman. The former is 17 or 18, the latter 14 or 15.

To be clear: I am only talking about the story synopsis. Add a couple of words - Joe Smith was fifteen and entering freshman year at James Western High School, and the whole world knows who the protagonist is. Look up Freshman in Wiki and you will get an idea of just how different every country's school systems are and it's confusing. There is nothing to change in the rest of the story, because with a couple of words in the synopsis we all know what a freshman is!

[ReaderPaul]

That is good reasoning, @Luca E.  While I was not thinking about that with regard to a synopsis, I have noticed the differences in common usage can vary a lot from country to country.  I have seen some writers from Australia and New Zealand include glossaries on some of their stories, and it can be very helpful.

Thank you for pointing this consideration out to us.

[Darryl62]

I am writing from Australia and I am very concious of USA bias in stories that I read, like TV shows that  overwhelming appear more than local content.  I aim to have universal language and if not then appropriate explanation as a part of the conversation.

[drown]

2 hours ago, Darryl62 said:

I am writing from Australia and I am very concious of USA bias in stories that I read, like TV shows that  overwhelming appear more than local content.  I aim to have universal language and if not then appropriate explanation as a part of the conversation.

I myself have a USA bias in my story (and stories). It's deeply ingrained in me as I grew up in the '80s and '90s, and I hold a fascination to this day. To this day, the focus on the United States is so vast in all of the Western world's media and entertainment that it's easier to garner an audience this way.

And also, I wouldn't want to write about werewolves and magic running through the forests of ... Brandenburg, Germany.

[Aditus]

8 hours ago, drown said:

I wouldn't want to write about werewolves and magic running through the forests of ... Brandenburg, Germany.

Why not? A large part of one of my earlier stories took place in Sicily. I'm having vampires and wolves running all about Venice, Italy in another story. Oh, yes, and in Cologne.

I love to read about places and people from all over the world. And space. 

Edited January 29 by Aditus

[Ron]

7 hours ago, Darryl62 said:

I am writing from Australia and I am very concious of USA bias in stories that I read, like TV shows that  overwhelming appear more than local content.  I aim to have universal language and if not then appropriate explanation as a part of the conversation.

Many writers work explanations into their work without seeming to be explaining things. It's perfectly acceptable to be different if that's what you're worried about. @Palantir includes in his writing many examples of Australian life, and this American has enthusiastically enjoyed what I've read. 

[drown]

2 hours ago, Aditus said:

Why not? A large part of one of my earlier stories took place in Sicily. I'm having vampires and wolves running all about Venice, Italy. Oh, yes, and in Cologne.

I love to read about places and people from all over the world. And space. 

Putting that in my backlog! I'd like to see how you work Cologne into something picturesque and interesting.
Sicily I do understand.

Having grown up in Germany, I just can't see it. 😂

[ReaderPaul]

I have seen several writers work terms into their stories seamlessly to explain the differences between countries.  At times, this in itself will be a fascinating part of the story.  

I am aware of one site which is owned from the UK, administered from the UK and Germany, and yet features more than half of the stories there featuring American writers.  It can be an enriching experience to read stories set in various countries.

[Bill W]

I think the old adage for writers is to write about what you know, and most American don't know that much about the rest of the world.  I'll admit that I have included trips overseas in one on my stories (to the UK, Australia, and Japan) but I had to do one hell of a lot of research to pull it off.  I had spent time in the UK when I was young, but things have changed there and my memory isn't as good as it once was, therefore I had to do a considerable amount of research in order to pull it off, but as I did I tried to explain as much as possible so every reader could enjoy it as well.  

Since this situation was brought to my attention, I've tried to make allowances for this.  When using feet, yards, and miles, or ounces and pounds in my stories, I try to include the metric equivalences.  When I'm talking about high school or college, when I use the term freshmen, I put (1st year) behind it, and sophomore (2nd year), Junior (3rd year), and senior (4th year), but now I see it might be more useful if I included the character's age.  I try to make my stories as interesting as I can for anyone to read, no matter where they're from, but I'm learning there is more I can do to accomplish this.  Thank you for sharing pointers, aswell as your viewpoints on the situation. 

[E K Stokes]

On 1/29/2024 at 8:48 PM, ReaderPaul said:

It can be an enriching experience to read stories set in various countries.

I hope so. I'm working on a story set in a college in the South of France and I never really considered whether anyone would be put off or attracted to any particular location or country, but would be drawn to the theme and story plot, with an insight to somewhere different or unknown being a bonus!

One point I did come up against was language even given the story is in English it seems to me there are some foreign words that have their place and ought to be included. For example, in the opening chapter there is a confrontation over respect and using derogatory language which is caused by name calling. A student calls another student out on his appearance, colourful clothes, and coloured hair: "Another fricking pédé!" that same guy announced to his groupies, but a little too loud. Pédé is French for queer and whilst I can see not too many readers would know this insult I still thought it appropriate and intended to put a brief explanation (translation) into the chapter notes. What do you think about including the odd foreign word in a story? Is it enlightening or annoying, enriching or a distraction?

[ReaderPaul]

1 hour ago, E K Stokes said:

I hope so. I'm working on a story set in a college in the South of France and I never really considered whether anyone would be put off or attracted to any particular location or country, but would be drawn to the theme and story plot, with an insight to somewhere different or unknown being a bonus!

One point I did come up against was language even given the story is in English it seems to me there are some foreign words that have their place and ought to be included. For example, in the opening chapter there is a confrontation over respect and using derogatory language which is caused by name calling. A student calls another student out on his appearance, colourful clothes, and coloured hair: "Another fricking pédé!" that same guy announced to his groupies, but a little too loud. Pédé is French for queer and whilst I can see not too many readers would know this insult I still thought it appropriate and intended to put a brief explanation (translation) into the chapter notes. What do you think about including the odd foreign word in a story? Is it enlightening or annoying, enriching or a distraction?

That is fine if the word or phrase is explained.  Mark Twain once complained that, in his time, too many persons thought that most persons should be able to read three or four foreign languages.  But he felt that the words should be explained, because most Americans CANNOT read multiple languages.  Even from culture to culture within the same languages, there are phrases and/or terminology which might need enlightenment for many persons.

Edited February 6 by ReaderPaul

[Ron]

9 hours ago, E K Stokes said:

Pédé is French for queer and whilst I can see not too many readers would know this insult I still thought it appropriate and intended to put a brief explanation (translation) into the chapter notes. What do you think about including the odd foreign word in a story? Is it enlightening or annoying, enriching or a distraction?

Yes, putting the odd, needed explanation in the chapter notes is best -- like a glossary of terms. Someone will always either be this way or that way regardless of what you do, depending on how you do it with your writing style. Constancy of style is key within the same story. Write the story you want to tell with the best of your ability.

[Aditus]

11 hours ago, E K Stokes said:

What do you think about including the odd foreign word in a story?

It's definitely okay if you explain it. You can do it in the chapter notes, as you said, or some kind of glossary. Or you find a more creative way and let one of your characters translate the word to the others and your readers, for example.

[LJCC]

15 hours ago, E K Stokes said:

I hope so. I'm working on a story set in a college in the South of France and I never really considered whether anyone would be put off or attracted to any particular location or country, but would be drawn to the theme and story plot, with an insight to somewhere different or unknown being a bonus!

One point I did come up against was language even given the story is in English it seems to me there are some foreign words that have their place and ought to be included. For example, in the opening chapter there is a confrontation over respect and using derogatory language which is caused by name calling. A student calls another student out on his appearance, colourful clothes, and coloured hair: "Another fricking pédé!" that same guy announced to his groupies, but a little too loud. Pédé is French for queer and whilst I can see not too many readers would know this insult I still thought it appropriate and intended to put a brief explanation (translation) into the chapter notes. What do you think about including the odd foreign word in a story? Is it enlightening or annoying, enriching or a distraction?

You don't have to italicize, translate, or provide a glossary. There's no need to make the language and world of the characters seem foreign or unfamiliar, catering solely to the white Western reader.

The request for a glossary reveals the entitlement of someone who's used to always being the intended audience. They're unaccustomed to looking things up themselves, inferring from context, or embracing the discomfort of not fully understanding something, like the rest of us do. Growing up in the UK, I spent my childhood immersed in American novels featuring characters named "Yanks or Yankie"—a concept that seemed totally foreign to me, yet I grasped its meaning well enough within the narrative's context. Decades later, when I finally discovered what "Yankie" truly meant, it was disappointing. A derogatory word could never capture the enchanting melody of that term.

I find inspiration in writers throughout history who have resisted glossing in all its forms. Salman Rushdie, in the introduction to the 40th anniversary edition of Midnight's Children, explores his quest to write in an English that isn't controlled by the English themselves. He reflects on how the flexibility of the English language has allowed it to become naturalized in various countries, with Indian English, Irish English, West Indian English, Australian English, and the many variations of American English all carving out their own unique identities.

In my second-to-last novel, I decided to translate a few Filipino terms. My thinking was that the book wasn't primarily meant for Filipino readers; it's a Western-style romance set in the Philippines, so the italicized words were there to provide context. But if my target audience were Filipinos and the story was written in English with a sprinkle of Filipino English tailored to the locals, then honestly, I wouldn't give a damn about translating the text.

[Ron]

16 hours ago, E K Stokes said:

"Another fricking pédé!" that same guy announced to his groupies, but a little too loud. Pédé is French for queer

It is helpful to include some sort of idea of what a word may mean, regardless of if some entitled individuals think they know best for everyone else. Point in fact I had considered the word pédé to mean pedophile until you said differently. Was I going to look it up? Not likely but I might have understood the meaning of the word in the context of your story. I think it best to assume correctly that your audience may not be as educated as some others and write accordingly. Readers for GA authors are a worldwide audience, and an author should keep that in mind when trying to reach them with their writing, although I believe the U.S. creates the largest number of visitors to GA if memory serves me well. Does that require information in the notes? or in a glossary? The answer to those questions is not definitive but should be dictated by the needs of the story and the author's desire for clarity.

[LJCC]

I feel attacked! 🤣

[Ron]

1 hour ago, LJCC said:

I feel attacked!

Party of two! I wasn't the first one to lob entitled around. 

[LJCC]

19 minutes ago, Ron said:

Party of two! I wasn't the first one to lob entitled around. 

You were affected when I said, "The request for a glossary reveals the entitlement of someone who's used to always being the intended audience--?"'

Sorry darling, I'll be more generic than that generic term or phrase I typed, literally unintended for no one. I'll make it extremely vague and obtuse; no, I'll turn it into a decagon in case you feel hurt by circles.

I pwamis.

Now, let me kiss that booboo. There. All better?

Now put that dick away. That's not what I meant.

[Ron]

Imperfection is a worldwide calamity.

[ReaderPaul]

As a reader, I DON'T HAVE TIME to continually look up unfamiliar terminology and/or words.  I will do it a few times, and then find a story where I don't have to do that.  If explained in the context of the story, great!  If not, I will look for a different story.

Some of the best UK and Australian and New Zealand authors I have read either include a "definition of words and phrases which may be unfamiliar to readers of another country."  They want their audience to be able to understand the story.  Most of us may have wide vocabularies, and be somewhat familiar with a bit of terminology or slang not of our language or culture.  But so far, I have met no one who knows it all.

It is NOT an insult to be aware that not everyone knows what you know.

[Bill W]

8 hours ago, LJCC said:

You don't have to italicize, translate, or provide a glossary. There's no need to make the language and world of the characters seem foreign or unfamiliar, catering solely to the white Western reader.

The request for a glossary reveals the entitlement of someone who's used to always being the intended audience. They're unaccustomed to looking things up themselves, inferring from context, or embracing the discomfort of not fully understanding something, like the rest of us do. Growing up in the UK, I spent my childhood immersed in American novels featuring characters named "Yanks or Yankie"—a concept that seemed totally foreign to me, yet I grasped its meaning well enough within the narrative's context. Decades later, when I finally discovered what "Yankie" truly meant, it was disappointing. A derogatory word could never capture the enchanting melody of that term.

I find inspiration in writers throughout history who have resisted glossing in all its forms. Salman Rushdie, in the introduction to the 40th anniversary edition of Midnight's Children, explores his quest to write in an English that isn't controlled by the English themselves. He reflects on how the flexibility of the English language has allowed it to become naturalized in various countries, with Indian English, Irish English, West Indian English, Australian English, and the many variations of American English all carving out their own unique identities.

In my second-to-last novel, I decided to translate a few Filipino terms. My thinking was that the book wasn't primarily meant for Filipino readers; it's a Western-style romance set in the Philippines, so the italicized words were there to provide context. But if my target audience were Filipinos and the story was written in English with a sprinkle of Filipino English tailored to the locals, then honestly, I wouldn't give a damn about translating the text.

What get so complicated?  If you use a foreign phrase in your story you can just use parentheses following the foreign phrase with the English translation in it, such as the following.  

"Oh mon dieu!" (Oh my god) she cried.  

[E K Stokes]

@LJCC @Ron @ReaderPaul @Bill W Thank you, you all make valid points.

I don't think I could leave the word pédé in the story without explanation. The reason being not that readers might not be bothered to look it up, they might assume the meaning, and even If they looked it up, misinterpret it.

I'll explain: the origin of the the word (in French) derives from pédéraste meaning an adult who is attracted to a young boy, usually an adolescent. The derivation has come to be applied as an insult to male homosexuals, best translated as queer, but you would be hard pressed to find that explanation even if you searched in French.

Exactly the same as you would not understand if I said, "He scrawled PD in large black letters on the college wall." PD meaning Pédé meaning queer. French lesson over, but I hope that explains the need to explain or translate the word.

Its inclusion (with explanation, translation) I think adds to the setting and foreign flavour of the story and you might remember it and have a little insight into another culture. So if you watch a football (UK, Europe) or soccer (USA) match and the rival team is French and the supporters chant, Pédé! Pédé! you will know it's a terrible insult because they are chanting, Queer boy!

Just for good measure (purely culturally educative) if they also chant enculés! (Phonetically: on q lay) they are chanting arse fucker! All this is a by the way and we are working to stop homophobic insults in sport so that you never here these slurs.

I got a bit off topic, but thanks again for all your thoughts.

Edited February 7 by E K Stokes

[LJCC]

1 hour ago, Bill W said:

What get so complicated?  If you use a foreign phrase in your story you can just use parentheses following the foreign phrase with the English translation in it, such as the following.  

"Oh mon dieu!" (Oh my god) she cried.  

• First, it's word count. But then again, this isn't a publishing house, so everyone can do what they please. But those translations add to the word count.
• Secondly, unless your demographic is young adults ages 21 and below and you're using foreign words to express sentiments, places, or actions, then you could offer a glossary to educate the youngins.
• Thirdly, translations break momentum. 
  • "Ti odio, cazzo! You promised me we'd be together. You liar! You lied to me. Bugiardo! Mi hai mentito. Why did you lie to me?"
  • Compared to: "Ti odio, cazzo! (I fucking hate you!) You promised me we'd be together. You liar! You lied to me. Bugiardo! Mi hai mentito (You liar! You lied to me). Why did you lie to me?"
  • I'd be more pissed off if someone wrote a very dramatic moment that way because you're putting words into your character's mouth. If you're Italian, Ti odio, cazzo! has more meaning and weight. And if you're a western reader who googled what Ti odio, cazzo! means, you'd be able to understand the subtext that the character is implied to be hurting—as intended in the scene.
• An example from ROBERT LUDLUM's BOURNE IDENTITY--intended for mature readers.
  • Or at the expense of his life, and there were moments last night when that was a distinct consideration.
    “Tu es fatigué, hein, mon frère?” his brother shouted, grinning at him. “Va te coucher maintenant. Laissemoi faire.”
    “D’accord,” the brother answered, throwing his cigarette over the side and sliding down to the deck on top of a net.  “A little sleep won’t hurt.”
  • There were no translations, no glossary of words (since the setting is in Europe and uses a lot of foreign terms), just the entire dialogue itself as italicised.
  • The point of this paragraph is to elicit confusion about a man who had wandered to the sea, as the boaters were confused if this man was still alive. It's a brilliant SUBTEXT to apply in the story because, as you're reading the French conversation (if you're not French), you're confused and muddled about the protagonist's fate, whether he's dead or alive. That's why it wasn't translated to English, because it feels authentic, it feels real, and it literally fits the setting—at which the start of the story indicates Mr. Bourne stranded in France, without memory.

The thing about translating foreign text is that you're assuming your readers are idiots, when in reality, they're smart and educated and could answer 1 + 1. If you want to give them a crutch, go ahead... It's YOUR STORY. I won't force you to blow me if you wrote translations or provided a glossary of terms in YOUR OWN story.

What I'm saying is, IF IT DOESN'T make sense...

Why put it?

If it doesn't fit...

Why force it?

Which is where foreign text mostly applies, depending on your story's demographic and intended purpose, YOU, as a WRITER, wrote it that way for a reason. And that reason is FOR your characters, NOT for your readers.

So, I'll shut up now. I don't want to get stabbed here. Haha.

Suck me before stabbing me, please... whoever you are. 🤣 

Send me off with a smile. Tnx.

 

[Bill W]

51 minutes ago, LJCC said:

• First, it's word count. But then again, this isn't a publishing house, so everyone can do what they please. But those translations add to the word count.
• Secondly, unless your demographic is young adults ages 21 and below and you're using foreign words to express sentiments, places, or actions, then you could offer a glossary to educate the youngins.
• Thirdly, translations break momentum. 
  • "Ti odio, cazzo! You promised me we'd be together. You liar! You lied to me. Bugiardo! Mi hai mentito. Why did you lie to me?"
  • Compared to: "Ti odio, cazzo! (I fucking hate you!) You promised me we'd be together. You liar! You lied to me. Bugiardo! Mi hai mentito (You liar! You lied to me). Why did you lie to me?"
  • I'd be more pissed off if someone wrote a very dramatic moment that way because you're putting words into your character's mouth. If you're Italian, Ti odio, cazzo! has more meaning and weight. And if you're a western reader who googled what Ti odio, cazzo! means, you'd be able to understand the subtext that the character is implied to be hurting—as intended in the scene.
• An example from ROBERT LUDLUM's BOURNE IDENTITY--intended for mature readers.
  • Or at the expense of his life, and there were moments last night when that was a distinct consideration.
    “Tu es fatigué, hein, mon frère?” his brother shouted, grinning at him. “Va te coucher maintenant. Laissemoi faire.”
    “D’accord,” the brother answered, throwing his cigarette over the side and sliding down to the deck on top of a net.  “A little sleep won’t hurt.”
  • There were no translations, no glossary of words (since the setting is in Europe and uses a lot of foreign terms), just the entire dialogue itself as italicised.
  • The point of this paragraph is to elicit confusion about a man who had wandered to the sea, as the boaters were confused if this man was still alive. It's a brilliant SUBTEXT to apply in the story because, as you're reading the French conversation (if you're not French), you're confused and muddled about the protagonist's fate, whether he's dead or alive. That's why it wasn't translated to English, because it feels authentic, it feels real, and it literally fits the setting—at which the start of the story indicates Mr. Bourne stranded in France, without memory.

The thing about translating foreign text is that you're assuming your readers are idiots, when in reality, they're smart and educated and could answer 1 + 1. If you want to give them a crutch, go ahead... It's YOUR STORY. I won't force you to blow me if you wrote translations or provided a glossary of terms in YOUR OWN story.

What I'm saying is, IF IT DOESN'T make sense...

Why put it?

If it doesn't fit...

Why force it?

Which is where foreign text mostly applies, depending on your story's demographic and intended purpose, YOU, as a WRITER, wrote it that way for a reason. And that reason is FOR your characters, NOT for your readers.

So, I'll shut up now. I don't want to get stabbed here. Haha.

Suck me before stabbing me, please... whoever you are. 🤣 

Send me off with a smile. Tnx.

 

First of all, I thought my suggestion of using the parentheses was easiest for the reader, since they wouldn't have to look for a note or go to a glossary.  And we're not implying that the readers are idiots, but we're just making it easier for those that don't speak the second language you are using, so they can understand.  I know, I for one, and I'll admit it, lose interest in a story and stop reading when too much of it is written in a language that I 'm not familiarity with. because I feel I'm missing too much of the story - possibly something important.  If that makes me an idiot, so be it. 

[LJCC]

6 hours ago, Bill W said:

 I know, I for one, and I'll admit it, lose interest in a story and stop reading when too much of it is written in a language that I 'm not familiarity with. because I feel I'm missing too much of the story - possibly something important.  If that makes me an idiot, so be it. 

Like Lord of The Rings? Tolkien literally created a new Elvish language in his novel. But then again, it is a NEW language, so he had to give insights to his readers as to wtf he was writing about; otherwise, people would just assume he was writing gibberish. I think he published a large glossary of terms and explanation at the end of his novel.

6 hours ago, Bill W said:

I know, I for one, and I'll admit it, lose interest in a story and stop reading when too much of it is written in a language that I 'm not familiarity with. because I feel I'm missing too much of the story - possibly something important.  If that makes me an idiot, so be it. 

I guess no writer would write a novel if half of it was written in another language. It's like if I wrote a novel in Italian with 80k words, and 40k of those are in Italian, then I'm assuming (AS a Reader) it's an Italian book with English context made for Italians that just happens to have English written on it.

However, if I am writing an 80k novel with roughly 500+ words written in Italian, I don't think that constitutes a story losing context in its entirety due to language barriers. 

For example, in the current story I'm writing, I provided a parenthesis explanation for the text because my characters are literally speaking Italian in dramatic phrases. Why did I translate it? These two characters in particular are multilingual. They can easily switch from Italian to English with ease.

Quote

A matronly woman heard noises coming from outside. She came out of the lavish apartment beside where Marta was standing and said, "Smettila, figliolo; andrai in prigione se continui a farlo! (Stop it, child; you'll go to jail if you keep doing that!)"

"Ma questa famiglia sta ferendo mio figlio. Tutto quello che ha sempre fatto è stato amare il loro figlio e loro lo trattano come spazzatura. Non ne posso più, signora. (But this family is hurting my child. All he's ever done was love their son, and they're treating him like trash. I can't take it anymore ma'am.)"

So my logic is that they weren't speaking Italian because they don't speak English, or they have a hard time speaking English. They speak Italian because it's another part of their language. Reading the translated text written in English is reading it as though they themselves have said it in English.

But in this sample, from the same novel:

Quote

After hearing everything for the first time, Martha, dressed in her nurse's scrubs, hurriedly picked up her shoulder bag and a plastic bag containing the Tupperware for her lunch and said, shrieking at the top of her lungs, "They can't do that to my son! I will not allow them to ruin his life! Como se atrevem a machucar meu filho daquele jeito? Só porque são ricos acham que podem fazer tudo!"

Gabriel and Lucas held their mom by the arm while Paolo blocked her exit. "Mama! Calm down, please," said Gabriel.

I didn't translate the Brazilian (Portuguese) text because Martha's speaks Portugeuse-Brazilian (the language she was born in), Italian (her father's native language), Swedish (her mother's native tongue), and English, the language she'd learned at school and eventually mastered when she migrated to the US with her husband. And I even explained it in my story:

Quote

So she headed down to grab a huge rock the size of a fist and threw it at their window; it missed. But before grabbing another rock bigger than the last one, she first started shouting in Brazilian, the language she grew up in, followed by Swedish, her mother's language. Then she began shouting in Italian, her father's native tongue, and said, "Venite fuori, figli di puttana! Non mi fermerò finché non avrò rotto tutte le tue finestre! (Come out, you motherfuckers! I won't stop until I've broken all your windows!)" She saw someone flipping the blinds on the 2nd floor, and out of anger, she threw the rock and smashed the first floor window.

I wanted the readers to read it in a language they don't understand because I wanted them to feel Martha's passion and that she's a Latin mother filled with spunk.

This is the translation: 

Como se atrevem a machucar meu filho daquele jeito? Só porque são ricos acham que podem fazer tudo!

How dare you hurt my son like that? Just because they're rich they think they can do everything!

Did it add context if I translated it? No. Because earlier paragraphs already explained that they were rich. 

The point is, GA has the freedom to post all your translated text because there's no limitation from a publisher that you only get to write a certain amount of text. It's a fact at this point that any author writing on this site can freely do so.

But it'll depend on you, AS a WRITER, to gauge if said translations are harmful to your story or worthwhile.