Online Posting vs. Publishing

[Andrew Q Gordon]

I'm was going topost this on my forum but figured I'd get a few more eyeballs here.

 

Background: orginally I wrote Second Shot, hoping to publish it. I even had thoughts of taking it down and sprucing it up based on the comments I'd gotten along the way. Then I had a dose of reality - published stories generally are only about 100-120K long, and certainly that is the rule of thumb for new authors. So that got me thinking, especially as I see more and more details of some kinda story involving the characters and 'universe' of Second Shot.

 

One thought that stuck out was that online forums such as this allow for pretty much whatever - short story? Post it. Long long story? that's fine too, if it's good - i.e. Circumnavigation - peole will keep reading. If it's 'normal, publication regulation' size? Post that too. Another thougth is style. Many many authors 'head hop' something of a big no no in the publishing world. Sure established authors can do pretty much what they want, as can someone who's first story just wow's folks - but for the vast vast majority of us, we have to follow the rules. Here again, on line posting - who cares about the rules? It's about doing what you like and hoping others will read and/or comment. but if not, who cares if you're doing it because you enjoy it?

 

So what's the point here?

 

Traditional writing requires lost of things, but among then a plot and a resolution. But what if there wasn't a real 'single' plot. What if someone came up with the 'Star Trek' of writing so to speak? You know to boldly go where others haven't gone before and whose continuing story will be told until ratings flail. Sort of like here are series of events in the characters lives, but there is no central issue, no overriding plot - like come out and not lost family? meet new family and decide to stay or not? [ala Desert Dropping] What if it were a series of small plots that follow the lives of the characters, add some along the way, removing others? Something akin to a sit com or drama we see on TV. Every 'episode' has a plot and a resolution, but there is no definitive, once we achieve this goal the story ends kinda thing. An on line soap opera of sorts.

 

How do folks feel about that? Would you read about the lives of characters you 'fell in love with' during a story? Or would it just be boring in the end and a waste of time for the author?

 

I'll post this on my forum as well, but link it back here and have comments posted here to keep em all in one place.

 

Andy

[Jwolf]

Traditional writing requires lost of things, but among then a plot and a resolution. But what if there wasn't a real 'single' plot. What if someone came up with the 'Star Trek' of writing so to speak? You know to boldly go where others haven't gone before and whose continuing story will be told until ratings flail. Sort of like here are series of events in the characters lives, but there is no central issue, no overriding plot - like come out and not lost family? meet new family and decide to stay or not? [ala Desert Dropping] What if it were a series of small plots that follow the lives of the characters, add some along the way, removing others? Something akin to a sit com or drama we see on TV. Every 'episode' has a plot and a resolution, but there is no definitive, once we achieve this goal the story ends kinda thing. An on line soap opera of sorts.

 

Andy

 

I can tell you, I write serially, and it's the main reason why I like the flexibility of online posting rather than publishing. With the exception of one story I've posted here, most of my work reads a lot more like a television show than a traditional novel. Characters are created and then thrown into a series of situations. I like to pull the plug before 'ratings' dip, so to speak (I admire writers who can successfully keep a series going. I have much too much ADD for that). For that reason, I think my work is geared more towards the online-posting arena. It's also a reflection of the stories I love to read. One of my biggest influences of all time was a web soap called The Men From The Boys (haven't been able to find it in years... if anyone knows where it's hiding out, ping me). It read very much like a gay Sex and the City (another one of my big influences) and it showed me that writing doesn't have to be framed cover to cover to be successful. That's my humble take on the topic

[Cia]

Obviously, it can be done. Gone From Daylight has myriad fans who love updates, I'm sure. For myself... I don't think I could get into a story of that type. I need an introduction, a conflict, and a resolution. No resolution just irritates me, especially in a book that I purchase. I think you can do sequels that involve the same characters but each story MUST be complete. There can be an overarching plot throughout the books but each one should focus on a set issue with the characters and it should be resolved before the HEA occurs. Yes, because I'm a sap, all my stories need a happily ever after I'll read those that don't but I don't get the warm fuzzies from them and will rarely buy more books or read further in the series.

[Dolores Esteban]

How do folks feel about that? Would you read about the lives of characters you 'fell in love with' during a story? Or would it just be boring in the end and a waste of time for the author?

 

 

I would, if I really liked the characters. I would not read for many years probably, but definitely for a certain period of time.

[Nephylim]

I think if it's good writing, interesting characters and plenty of plot then of course it's going to be read; whether it's the first time you've read about the characters or whether you have been following them through their journey for a while. I think that people love to hear more about their favourite characters and will follow them from page to page, story to story as long as there is something to lead them.

 

As far a publishing v posting is concerned I think that the issue is simple for me... if I post people get to read it; if I try to publish then it ends up in the bin

 

So yeah

[Dannsar]

I agree with what Cia and Nephy said.

 

As I have said before, there is a world of difference in writing for posting and writing for publishing in general terms (though I don't see why that should be).

 

I think if you wanted to use GA, for example, as a sort of superbeta, then that might work, especially if it could be restricted to readers and other writers you respect. But the difficulty with that scenario is, if you don't restrict it, then no publisher is likely to want to take it on, as it will have been read by an unknown number of people already (perhaps a million, perhaps none), and the risk is not worth it for them.

 

Taking your Star Trek example, if you basically think of each episode of Star Trek as a novella, and publish it in chunks of four to a book, then you might be able to take the thing and run with it in that way. Clearly inventiveness is necessary, as is a concentration on a pretty discrete plot platform. The benefit there, though, is that you can feature a single character in each novella, in much the same way as a tv series does.

 

The danger is that you run out of convincing ideas before you get to the end of the second collection. If you look at Agatha Christie, she had three main character sets based around Poirot, Miss Marple, and Tommy and Tuppence. This allowed her the freedom to look at similar events from quite different perspectives and social milieu, which broadened her market and gave longevity to her product. I can hear cogs whirring just now thinking, oh yeas, alternating pov stories are common in gay fiction ... But that's crap in my opinion!

 

I have recently begun to think about epublishing, and I've been hearing quite a lot about it on UK Radio Four. There is a substantial market arising, apparently, for shorts at a cost of £1 or $1. These take around 40 mins to read, which is significant, because that is not an uncommon commute time on train or bus. So it may be a particular market, but it is also apparently quite lucrative. After all, even if you only get 50% of the purchase price as royalty, if you sell 100,000, which is not unthinkable if the stories have some quality, then you are 50k up, with very little outlay. Now, it clearly isn't just as simple as that, but you get the point.

 

This may look like an obvious write : post market, but I'd advise against that. Although, I'd happily admit that that is based on my prejudice against write : post as we see it on many gay fiction portals. I think you'd need to have the entire story done and polished with a very good plot trajectory already worked out to ensure that you got the readers to come back for each subsequent chapter. Remember, they have the very great option of deciding whether to download or not. And episodic stories need completely different structures in terms of cliffhangers, threads, work through sub-plots etc. Thus it would need to be done and dusted before you made the first chapter / episode available for downloading. The benefit here would be that if you had a twenty chapter story, you could sell it at £1 / chapter and get far more for it than if you were to sell it as a whole piece. On the other hand ...

 

Lastly, there is a style issue involved. Writing style on sites such as GA / Nifty / etc etc is not the same as you find in a 'normal' book. It is very much more feelgood. There's nothing wrong with that (he lied to himself ), but a format such as epublishing would quite probably need to move to a style somewhere between the harder edged paper based stuff, and the warmer and fuzzier minority group stuff.

 

I guess my simple advice would be to see if you can cut SS1 down to 30,000 - 40,000 words, and write The Trial at a similar length along with two other companion pieces .. or take Bettor to Lose and develop three other companion pieces with that, and then epublish those. (I'd suggest the SS1 option over Bettor as the latter seems to me to have had a lovely feel with a real sense of closure). Think to yourself, even if you were to publish SS1 as it is as an establishing piece ... would you then have another three stories available along with The Trial to constitute a collection?

 

One final thing ... how do you go about publicising it? Virality is not easy to achieve, although social media is clearly a major consideration in this.

[Dark]

These sorts of books do exist! From as recent as Harry Potter, there are tons of 'collections' out there. I think they're more prevalent in the children's and young adult genre, but they are there.

 

If you've ever read any of the vast numbers of Star Trek or Star Wars books, you can get an idea, or even Dan's example of Agatha Christie is a good one. So are the adventures of Sherlock Holmes. I remember reading novellas about the original Battlestar Galactica, where each book was the novel version of one of the episodes.

 

You also find shorts of this nature in magazines, though magazines are sort of out of favor these days.

 

If you are careful and do your research right, you can write to fill this niche. I think that those who read online like the niche writing they've found and I wouldn't be surprised to start hearing "online" become a new genre. Like the movie, "if you write it, they will come" provided you can meet the demand and put the writing out there where those interested in periodicals will find it.

[Andrew Q Gordon]

Dann, Dark - one thing that I wasn't too clear on was length. I guess what I was envisioning is something like a long ass story - that just doesn't have a central 'problem' to resolve. Sort of introduce the characters, have then deal with a conflict, then move on to another time in their lives etc etc etc. Follow them along the road, something like a Soap Opera. Agatha Christie or HP is different. Those were novel length stories. A series yes, but that is what they were - a series. Each book while connected, was complete.

 

My thought - and this is not so much an idea for something I want to do as just a thinking out loud to hear what other people think - is almost like a tv show. Each week a new episode - or in this case a new chapter. Some will be complete, other will take a few to complete. Some themes on a show go a few episodes, others are over in one. It more or less that type of thing I was talking about.

 

Nephy, you're too modest. Might I suggest - that since you have so many stories floating around, you consider peeling one off, and trying your hand at it? Dann's suggestion is a good one, you might be able to ditch your law job as the thing that pays the bills so 'you do what you were put on this earth to do' [see I read other things on here too ]

 

Anyway, I think was JW, Delores and Cia said touches on what I was thinking about. I suspect the answer is something like an amalgamation of things. Yes people would read, but not forever, the author needs to be like Seinfeld and get out on top and move on, but there are going to be people who won't read it because they prefer a story with a plot, conflict and resolution at the end. Oh well, who knows. Thanks for the answers all, very helpful.

 

Andy

[Zeoanne]

What I want to know is.... What's keeping you from serializing your long story? You could do a bit of rewrite on each scenario and give them a solution at the end then continue with book 2, etc. I buy a lot of ebooks and some are very long and also serialized. e.g. Ariel Tachna's Breaking Limits (413,155 words) Another long one is Top Secret -The archer by Abigail Roux ( 978 pages, 246,000 words) (which I purchased but have not started reading yet) Go to websites like AllRomanceeBooks.com and do a search on gay books then click on 'Word Count' and see how many are out there that are very long.

So, you see? Everything is doable. All you have to do is give it a try.

[Katica Locke]

I have a bit of experience with this, actually. A while ago, I wrote a piece of online fiction that followed the daily life of a slave who worked for a mage in a magic shop. Each day brought new problems, but there was no real central plot with a main conflict, climax, and resolution. I wrote about 500,000 words of this ongoing story before I decided to turn it into a series of novels. It took some rewriting, and I'll be the first to admit that it wasn't a perfect conversion, but I did manage to divide it into five books, each with a more publishable format.

 

Personally, if I fall in love with a character or characters, I want to read about them forever, as long as the plot and writing is of at least moderate quality. I'm a lot more forgiving of weak plot and mediocre writing if I like the characters.

[Kavrik]

Andy, I just wanted to say that what you are wanting to write is already an entire genre of very successful stuff. The genre is called "Literary Fiction."

 

These are stories of the likes of John Irving and Michael Chabon. Think "The Cider House Rules" and "The Wonder Boys" if you've never read these books.

 

Literary Fiction is by definition plotless. It is simply about a character's life. I love John Irving's stories.

 

I'm not trying to harp on anything, but from looking at this thread I can tell that a lot of the writers don't seem to read as much as they write (people should at least be familiar with an entire genre of writing that is already out there). Reading what is out there, what is published, will make you a better writer. These are not my words, they come from Stephen King. And they are absolutely true.

 

But yes, there is a market for exactly what you want to write...a HUGE market with hungry readers. Tell your stories of the characters and go to town man.

[Andrew Q Gordon]

Thanks Mike,

 

Clearly I fall into that category of reading less than writing, - sigh, yes Anyta, I can feel you smiling and heard you say, 'I told you so' - but for me at least it is more I read a lot of the same stuff - i.e. fantasy and sci-fi not that I don't read. I'll have to take a look at the literary fiction thingy and see if I likes or not.

 

Nice to 'see' you, you've been absent for a bit, guessing all the books signings make it hard to remember us little folk.

[Dark]

Andy, I just wanted to say that what you are wanting to write is already an entire genre of very successful stuff. The genre is called "Literary Fiction."

 

These are stories of the likes of John Irving and Michael Chabon. Think "The Cider House Rules" and "The Wonder Boys" if you've never read these books.

 

Literary Fiction is by definition plotless. It is simply about a character's life. I love John Irving's stories.

 

I remember the Hardy Boys and another series with a teenage detective. My sister read the Babysitter's Club (I think that's what it's called). There were seemingly hundreds of those.

[JohnN53]

As far a publishing v posting is concerned I think that the issue is simple for me... if I post people get to read it; if I try to publish then it ends up in the bin

So correct.

 

I would only add that it ends up for sale on the discounted books table only if you can even get it published.

 

Remember the days you'd go into an adult book store - and that's what they were called, adult BOOK stores, and see rows of paperback books on racks? Not any more. You're lucky to find a small waterfall display of books in the corner of the store. Instead the store is now filled with videos, dildos, plastic breasts, gag gifts, and in the case of the best one in my town, marijuana pipes.

 

The adult book market is in the toilet. It's very unlikely you'd get a paperback book published today. To get a hard copy of your work published, you better be able to plot like Tom Clancy, write about people like John Updike and be as smutty as Fanny Hill.

 

There is hope and that's the e-books market. With an e-book, the cost of self publishing isn't the barrier anymore. I've thought often about taking my story, Messing Around With Mike, which is the length of a novella as it is, and expand it three or four-fold. I'd make it less of a dry narrative and instead tell the story of growing up in Southern California. My sexual growth with Mike would be the major theme but other aspects of young teenage life would come in. The story would slow down, have much more dialog and the pre-requisite bittersweet ending for a teenage coming-of-age story.

 

That I could publish as an e-book and might even make some money on it.

 

And through the simple expedient of changing the title, the fact that the core sex scenes would already be up on the Internet for free reading wouldn't make a difference. As long as I wait a few years, Messing Around With Mike will have disappeared into the aether.

 

I can post it online now and publish it in the future.

[John Doe]

I feel like I have to say something.... even though I had my months long hiatus. Kavrik nailed the genre of "pointless" "plotless" stories as literary fiction. It is a very hard niche to get into because that genre is filled with hotsy totsy kinds of folks. But generally, they "don't have a plot" or rather most people consider them not having a plot, but they do. It's minor nothing big like saving the world, but more unsuspecting... like the life one had live moments before a bullet flys through the narrators head. Or why the narrator had the life the narrator has now because her father molested her when she was young. These stories goes about it spilling information about these characters that has nothing to do with these obvious moments (the bullet through the head or molestation) but the minor moments. They are stories about the characters and how they act within a given frame. They don't state the obvious. It's what draws apart from other genres...where the focus is the obvious plot builder: i.e. save the cheerleader, save the world.

 

My question is this... or rather point of curiosity. How would you be writing these stories? (I would recommend the O'Henry Prize short stories collection for literary fiction). Like soap operas? Fan Fiction? If its in this fashion then it wouldn't be considered literary and publication by representation of agent to publishing house will not happen. Yeah the publishing world is tough, but at the same time I appreciate that toughness. They filter out the bad writings from the good. Some do fall through the cracks but even still those that do are much better than those you see floating around the internet. Or even those floating around on ebooks for sale. I couldn't buy ebooks anymore unless its backed by a publisher. The writings are horrible. Too much I'm not willing to waste my time or money. Not worth the money I paid for. Now places like this where we view stories for free is another story.

 

Agents and publisher nowadays are looking for a writer that is already good at writing. They don't want to spend too much time raising a writer. And again I can see this point. As a writer you should always work to better yourself and not lean on others to do that. It's a crutch. You want to get published? Work hard at it. Writing is not an easy road to get "easy" money. Most writings on the net are mediocre at best. Few are well written. That's not to say that online writers can't write but rather online writers have yet to find that bar to set themselves at. They see no purpose to better themselves as it's only gonna be online so it goes through a few revisions. But really the revision that are done are minor revisions. Yeah so you changed a whole chapter... well then that "revision" becomes moot. That "new" chapter should be revised again with focus on voice, grammer, diction, and style. When you take a chunk out or when you add a chunk in... it should be consider a new part or piece of writing not a revision and it should go through revision.

 

Onto the question of length. Agents/publishers will not accept a novel from a new writer that is over 140k words. This is semi false. When comes down to it, really, it can be considered completely false. Most new writers have filler scenes. Scenes that seem important to them to have in the story when in reality the book can do without it. Take that whole scene out and the book still makes sense or a character still seems believable then that scene is not needed. I'll even use my finish novel (which is on here btw) as an example. I could polish Get There and make it better.... right now its about 140k and I know I could make probably take it below the 100 k mark and have a better and more poigant book. One day it's a goal of mine to do that. If I sent the book to an agent now I'll get a flat rejection letter. I know it. You get the first 3 pages to impress and if it's not impressive but they can work with it the next consideration of taking on a new writer/project comes down to length of manuscript. Over 100k... into the slush/trash bin. That's just too much work for them. I don't blame them... a literary office recieves hundreds of queries everyday. Most are mediocre stories. So hence thats where that "rule" came from. BUT... if its over 140 k and its written well and every scene, every word is significant to the story agents and publisher will take you on regardless. Though here comes another: BUT - most stories from new writer at that length aren't well written. It's not to say they suck. They currently aren't good enough. Maybe in the future yes but not that manuscript at that time. I think it's a very fair process.

 

I want to be a published writer. It's something I take very seriously and I think if it is something you take seriously the publishing world's method make sense. Even though its disheartening at times. If it's something you want to do for fun then by all means do it for fun. No one is here to stop you. Take the reigns and grab your pens and paper (or typewritter or computer) and write away. Enjoy yourself. But doing something for fun and being serious - or even passionate about something - aren't the same. If every writer was more serious about their work and passionate about it everyone will be published. You have to ask yourself with honesty, am I writing this with every effort that I can? By reading the stories on here and including myself I will say no, for the most part. There are those who come close... whose almost worthy of being published but their manuscripts could use a bit more editing and "seriousness." But that's the luxury of this site. We're here for fun, for the community of enjoying others without the stress and heavy watch of what we type or write.

 

I just had to say that. Many people put down the publishing world without really understanding what is going on. Many folks believe that they are worthy of being published when in reality they think too highly of themselves. To be a good writer you have to realize the reality of things and speak honestly with yourself. Know and recognize weak points in your stories. Don't love a certain part enough? Remove it. Don't be like "oh well the next part is good enough to mask that [the crappy] part." Remove and revise. Take your ego down a notch or two or three or however it takes for you to stop thinking that you are entitled to be printed because those other authors have been printed. Worry about yourself and your own works.

 

Now to your question of would I read it? Depends. Is it written well?

[LJH]

My take on this is that if the characters are popular, like JR Ewing in Dallas, then I don't see the why not. Popular characters live a long time after the story. They become real. I would follow if this were the case. However, as a general rule, I don't like serialising. I agree that the story must have a beginning, middle and an end. Whether that end is in five books time, each book must end. Each book therafter, in my view, must be a story on its own and not just random stream of consciousness thoughts. SOC's are a great way to write if you have a time limit, and then it has to be edited. God forbid I should ever be asked to clean up a writer's SOC.

 

The same rules that apply for that initial story, must apply for each serialization thereafter.

 

Many authors on GA employ a style where they believe that GOOD writing comes from the way we speak. No bloody way! We speak differently to the way we write. I can understand if a first time writer has written a debut and posts it for review, but then he/she must also be able to withstand the criticism from writers / editor's who know and understand the way of the writer. Debut writers must learn. I did. Andy you did too. We are still learning. With each serialization, or sequel, I want to see how and where the writer has advanced. If the writer is a hard boiled egg and not flexible to outstanding writing, I wiull discontinue my reviews and advice and move on to a writer who listens, and practices whatever a learned writer or editor has to say. The publishing world rejects writers who are unable to tune into words, no matter how good the writer perceives his/her stuff to be. We write for ourselves, or for the masses. Writing for ourselves, is not the same as writing for the public. The public want brilliant, thought provoking stuff, not the inactive, passive soup that many dish out and regard their work as outstanding.

 

I write because I want to be published. I want my characters to live on in the minds of readers long after the book is read. If there is a call for spinoffs, then so be it, do it. If there is no call, if the characters do not inspire, then that particular line of thought must end.

 

Shoot me....lol

[LJH]

Oh and I completely agree with John Doe here.