Sidd

Well, I guess the pot's been stirred a bit since I started this post. I hope the discussion doesn't descend to US Congress level of nastiness. I'm sure GA members are better than that. Well, I thought that my comment was in the spirit of ribbing between friends since most of the replies thus far were expressed in the spirit of good humor.. My sincere apologies for giving offense. Contrary to your assumptions, however, I have read a good number of stories on this site with the caveat that they have been stories and authors with the highest number of reputation points (there are too many stories here not to go by some criteria, and that seems to be the best one to me), and that is what I based my comments on as far as GA goes. Most of these authors have expressed that they are able and willing to take negative though constructive criticism of their work. My thanks to clumber for his replies. I don't know if his purpose was to defend me specifically, but like him I also felt that I was more or less being invited to go somewhere else. I also take offense to being called a troll. I offer my critiques in the spirit of improving the site and encouraging authors to write better, and that is all. I am also confident that even the least experience writers on the site are not babies, and taking into account that most writers are very sensitive, there is no need for coddling. And just for the record, the highest praise I have given to any story on the site has been for a first effort writer (see A New Life by Acedias). As for the purpose of creating the post, I will say again it is not the specific cliches I outlined that really bug me, but the fact that I seem to read story after story which amounts to being a repetition of the last in one way or another. And I don't limit this observation to GA but to all of online gay fiction as a whole.

Not familiar with Sequoyah Pendor or Cole Parker - I'm sure they're good - but it's funny you should mention Mike Arram's series, since it was out of total frustration with him that I started this post in the first place. If you go back to the first post I specifically mentioned the first story in his Peacher series Towards the Decent Inn. To me he's guilty of all the cliches that I've been railing against: glorifying wealthy white males (not to mention a rather snobbish view of royalty), constant teen sex which is never anything less than mind blowing, impossibly beautiful characters (personified in the person of Matt White), and a host other cliches. And of course, a lot of elements are not cliches: not all his characters are wealthy, beautiful, ect. but it's clear where his loyalties lie. But the thing is, I'm riveted by the series - the stories disgust me on moral and aesthetic grounds but at the same time I can't stop obsessing over them. Right now I'm in the middle of the Henry Atwood trilogy, reading and muttering under my breath "Dammit Arram, I wish I could quit you." Another author that has a similar effect on me is Dom Luka. He's definitely one of the best writers on GA, but still guilty of a lot of the cliches I've mentioned, especially the teen sex thing. I'm going to catch flak from Domaholics out there, but haven't you noticed that his characters over the various stories go through an almost identical progression of sex scenes: first there's the intitiation into sex through mutual masterbation, then there's the first oral experience, then tentative steps towards anal sex, and finally the character's first experience of full blown anal sex, which after some initial pain, is the ultimate religious experience in both the characters' life and the story - in the afterglow the characters are lying there making google eyes at each other, murmuring "now I am complete." Well, dear me. This describes not only Dom Luka's stories, but maybe half of the gay teen stories online. Hence my frustration with cliches. But I will say this for Dom Luka, he has the skill to transcend the cliches. His best story IMHO is In the Fishbowl. It's definitely his most mature work, and note he is able to not include one explicit sex scene through the whole story, though there are plenty of opportunities for him to do so.

Thank you! Finally someone who has done what I started this topic for in the first place! Actually, I was about to give up on GA altogether and just dismiss it as place where semi-illiterate teens come to get cheap thrills. Just kidding. Or not. Ouch! I guess I'm just finding that out about this site. I originally had it in mind that GA catered to the full spectrum of gay writing, but I should have caught on sooner judging by what seems to be the most popular on the site. Still, I stand by my assertion in my second post that even genre fiction doesn't need to be mindlessly escapist and mediocre. It's not for nothing that The Lord of the Rings has been cited by many critics as one of the greatest books written in the 20th century. So given the nature of this site, maybe in addition to story suggestions I should request other gay author site suggestions as well. We can dispense with the many porn/erotic gay fiction sites out there, since they are definitely legion. What I'd like to hear about are gay author sites that cater to more literary, or so-called serious fiction works. I can start it off: I just found a site that host an online magazine called "Blithe House Quarterly". The magazine is no longer active, but there is a nice archive with plenty of stories that fall into the category of more sophisticated fiction. (God, does that sound condescending or what?).

Surpised you've never heard of Genet. Jean Genet is considered by many to be to gay authors what Shakespeare is to dramatic literature. Everyone interested in gay writing should read him not because he'd be their cup of tea (very likely he won't be) but because it's already a given that this is what truly great writing is. And yes, there's a lot of explicit gay sex in his books, but they're written skillfully without a lot of hyperbole, so that it's closer to art than it is to common pornography. And I agree with you about Proust; personally he bores me to tears, but still, considering he's another gay author, his place in world literature can't be disputed. Thank you. I totally forgot about those cliches, and it's absolutely true. Well, I guess I have my own personal prejudices against this type of story, for one thing it always implies a sort of self-loathing common amongst gays that straight guys are so much desirable and better than gays, for another it is in total denial that such as thing as bisexuality or the closet exists. Anyone going to Narnia? Peeps seem to misunderstand about my points on sex in stories. It's not that I object to explicit descriptions of sex (see my comment about Genet above) if I did I can just choose stories tagged with "no sex". It's the way sex is treated I object to - in a lot of stories sex is something to be hyped, pitched and sold. It's almost like the stories are a commercial for sex. Likewise, I don't object to depictions of wealthy people in and of itself, it's the way it's handled in the stories - as if the only people whose stories are worth telling are those with a lot of money (the 1% as opposed to the 99%, as it were). There can be stories where wealth is the setting, but it's handled in a very probing and thought provoking way. Alan Hollinghurst's The Line of Beauty is the best example I can cite of that. Speaking of examples, the best one I could give of a very good gay author would be Michael Nava, author of a series mystery novels whose protagonist, gay lawyer Henry Rios, escapes every cliche out there. In some cases he deals with wealthy and powerful people, in other cases he deals with poor and disenfranchsed, but Rios himself falls into neither category. It's a very well written series of books, and Nava is recognized to be in the top tier of gay mystery writers (I would say gay writers, period). I understand the preponderance of fantasy stories on this site and others. A lot of people read to escape real life, or putting it more kindly, to enhance their life experiences, hence you have not only outright fantasy but wealthy settings, absurdly beautiful people and mind-blowingly great sex. Nothing wrong with that. But it's a shame that mediocrity gets so much encouragement, where the alternative is that you can have not only highly entertaining stories, but also stories that actually make people think. So again, getting back to the point of this topic, any more suggestions?

Okay, I know this might sound whiny, but frankly I'm starting to get tired of the overabundance of online gay fiction that seems to have the same themes, characters and settings that get repeated ad infinitum. throughout various authors and websites. I'm interested in story suggestions that are unique in defying the well worn conventions that seem to plague most gay fiction. Some of these hackneyed conventions include: Characters who are white, male and fabulously wealthy. What's up with the obsession on material wealth, anyways? Are writers of gay fiction so lacking in imagination that they can only maintain interest by making one or more of their main characters ridiculously wealthy? Does that mean middle class, poor people and people of color are too boring to tell stories about? Another common chestnut: a meteoric rise to wealth that would make the Horatio Algiers stories look like they were written by Upton Sinclair. One example I can give is Towards the Decent Inn by Mike Arram. The first part of the book I loved, it's characters were solidly British middle class and sympathetic. But then in the second half it's revealed that one of the main character's father is the twelfth richest man in the world, and it was downhill from there, as the improbabilities started to mount up. Lots and lots and lots of teen sex. I'll probably get in trouble for this one, since teen stories are so popular amongst readers. I don't care. The implication here is that anyone over the age of twenty don't have sex lives worth talking about. (Old people having sex? Eeeewwww!!!) Am I the only person who thinks that it's just a little creepy that you most likely have a lot of middle-aged male authors who are obsessed with under-aged sex? Sex scenes where the sex is never anything less than fabulous, until the next time when it's even better. I'm starting to sound like a prude, I know. But I do happen to know that we lived in a over-sexualized culture, where in the end sex has become a commodity. And in order to sell a commodity, you hype your product. I'm looking for stories where the sex is dealt with realistically, as an outgrowth of character and story development, and not as something to sell the reader on. There can be mature fiction where the sex is sometimes bad or ho hum. The BF is straight, he's only gay for the main character. I guess I'm just not into fantasy, and this particular fantasy lies deep in a closet that goes far beyond Narnia. So now that I've had my English teacher bitch attack, I would just say that I do appreciate creative effort, and understand that a lot of online authors are inexperienced. Of course I don't come online expecting to find stories on the level of Proust or Genet. But what a shame when there's little indication that any authors have even read Proust or Genet, or for that matter, have even heard of them. I would love to be proved wrong on this matter. Any suggestions?

Thanks for all the responses. Actually I hadn't even considered PMing since I don't do it that much myself, but that seems to be the best solution as far as giving feedback goes. The last thing I would want to do is publicly embarrass a fledgling writer or discourage someone who doesn't have much experience in putting their work out there. I did say, however, that my main interest is in giving feedback on authors with the highest reputation points. I think these authors would have enough positive validation (often rightly so) that they should be able to take constructive feedback with some aplomb, provided that it was consensual. Also, considering that many of the highly reputed writers may be on the verge of being professionally published (if they haven't been already), it is only right that they should be held to a higher standard. Certainly professional reviewers are not going to display the level of kindness and tact that GA members are apt to show. As Quonus 10 has said (all of whose points are well taken and highly appreciated), most GA members are likely not professional editors. However I think that many would be well-read, some have probably studied literature, and would be highly qualified to express a responsible opinion on an author's work. I don't know if there is a section in the site to review completed works specifically of stories and novels featured on the GA site, but I think if there are authors who seeks to be held to higher scrutiny than they would normally get in the stories forum and chapter reviews, it might be something worth looking into. And of course it would be only authors who have asked to be treated without kid gloves.

Strapped: A movie that came out a couple of years ago, got lots of raves and hardly gets any attention at all. Very intellectual, very artful, very enigmatic. It has a sort of Twilight Zone plot: a hustler gets trapped in the building of a trick and has encounters with just about every gay personality type out there while trying to find a way out. Despite the title, no hard S/M elements.

The reason I ask is because in all the feedback channels on the GA site I never come across anything negative in the way of feedback. By negative of course I mean respectful constructive criticism, not rude insults, outright disses or anything like that. But I've seen very little in the way of constructive feedback. It's almost like there's an unspoken rule of "if you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all." Which is why I've limited commenting on stories I truly like, giving raves and encouragement the same as everyone else. The only thing is, there have been quite a few stories and authors (who will go unnamed here) usually with very high reputation points, where frankly I've been flabbergasted to see the kind of gushing that they get. It also left me dying to give feedback on ways the authors can improve their stories, but since no one else is doing it, I've felt too intimidated, fearing it might be considered bad form. I realizes that the majority of what you read here is free, and people tend to be more forgiving of an author because of that. I doubt you'd ever get the kind of dissing you see in reader reviews that you'd get on Amazon.com. On the other hand, I truly feel that readers aren't doing an author (or other readers) any favors by giving nothing but raves and unconditional encouragement. Of course I haven't read all the feedback on the site and I could be very mistaken about this. If anyone can give me examples of constructive feedback, mainly over works and authors that have earned the highest reputation points, I'd be more than happy to read those examples.

I appreciate those who have responded to my comments. I'm new to the site, so it's gratifying to know that I'm not being ignored. I won't argue with your responses, but i would just like to point out how this media representation of gays effects me personally. A lot of people have pointed out that I'm being over sensitive to this issue, and I can concede that to a point. I do believe that this over sensitivity has an understandable cause, and also that I'm not the only one who feels this way. Basically, under the current status quo in Hollywood, we are to believe that if you are talented, charismatic, beautiful and uber-famous then by default that makes you heterosexual. This is pushed on us in many different ways, but lately it especially applies to actors playing gay roles. Hollywood likes to think of itself as liberal by giving us more gay characters in television and film. Perhaps it is on the creative level. However on the political and marketing level it's as conservative as any fundamentalist Christian church. And so we have the all these glamorous beautiful gay characters being played "straight" actors, and you can be sure that they're not going to stop reminding us that they are straight. Again, in regards to talent and suitability for a role, people must know that they are not the only factors that go into casting a role. From what I know of the business (and it must be stressed that the movie industry is more of a business than an art) politics, marketing and publicity weigh in just as much, if not more heavily, in casting decisions than talent and suitability. And so it could very well be that a gay actor who loses out on a role because (s)he's not as famous, or more pertinently, is openly gay, would be far more artistically accomplished in the role than the big star who got casted instead. If we were just considering the the films and TV shows by themselves, then yes, I would agree with my responders, it doesn't matter what the sexual orientation of the actor is. But realistically, you must know that we live in a celebrity obsessed culture, and it's never enough just to watch a movie or TV show, we're going to hear about the actors playing the role whether we want to or not. That being the case, it's really painful to me that I'm constantly being reminded that real gay people are basically second class citizens as far as image goes. It's not like I'm asking to know what the sexual orientation of these actors are, so I'm tired of having that information rammed down my throat by the industry. Also I would concede that there are exceptions in the movie industry. Unfortunately they still seem to prove the rule. A good example would be a moderately successful movie called "Save Me" about the "ex-gay" movement that came out a few years ago. The film stars two openly gay actors, Chad Allen and Robert Gant as the romantic leads, but more importantly neither one fits the stereotype of the gay man common in Hollywood, and both are very attractive as well. Besides being an intelligent and balanced film, I would recommend this to people simply because this is an example of what needs to become more common in the film industry.

Well of course you're taking it on face value that these "straight" actors are really straight. Hollywood is notorious for being homophobic as far as actors being openly gay is concerned, the profusion of gay characters in film and TV notwithstanding. Haven't you noticed that majority of actors and actresses that are out of the closet are the ones that have been kicked out? And of course none are A-listed - those actors are well protected from outings by the publicity machine. I think the well worn notion that who plays a gay role, straight or gay, doesn't matter as long as the part is played well, is really besides the point. Someone said a Roman Catholic character doesn't need to be played by a Roman Catholic, but I think a more apt example would be an African American character being played by an African American. Imagine the outrage if you had a white actor in black face playing an African. Given the social climate, you can argue the same about gay roles. It's not a question about how well the role is played, it's a question of representation and what kind of image gays are being given in the media. What bugs me most is the fact that whenever you have a hot, non-stereotypical gay role, usually in the lead, then you'll hear a lot of noise about how the actor is straight in real life, whereas if the role is that of the stereotypical, effeminate gay man (or butch lesbian) in a secondary role, then it's okay to say that the actor is openly gay in real life.