Y'know, the thing that's missing here is regret. I really, really need to go back and emphasize that. Joe spends the day alternately moping and in pain, and very little of that pain comes from his shoulder. He was teased with everything he ever wanted but thought he could never have, and feels like it's been ripped away. He took a chance and made himself vulnerable in a way he'd never done with anyone else and he got (mostly inadvertently) sucker-punched.

Now, a sane, sensible, rational person with some experience in relationships would realize that this does sometimes happen even when we don't want it to, and would try to work through the hurt. Alas, neither of the guys is all that good at this, and Joe's had a really, really bad week.

The guys definitely are going to need some couples counselling once this is all through if they're going to survive to the sequel.

Sequel?? Cool...

Sharon

DITTO (Sharon always seems to say it best and earliest) :-)

Y'know, the thing that's missing here is regret. I really, really need to go back and emphasize that. Joe spends the day alternately moping and in pain, and very little of that pain comes from his shoulder. He was teased with everything he ever wanted but thought he could never have, and feels like it's been ripped away. He took a chance and made himself vulnerable in a way he'd never done with anyone else and he got (mostly inadvertently) sucker-punched.

 

Now, a sane, sensible, rational person with some experience in relationships would realize that this does sometimes happen even when we don't want it to, and would try to work through the hurt. Alas, neither of the guys is all that good at this, and Joe's had a really, really bad week.

 

The guys definitely are going to need some couples counselling once this is all through if they're going to survive to the sequel.

I think I noticed that regret is coming through -- he's expressing things badly to himself as well as to the rest of the world though.

I think all the couples counseling they need can be provided by Chris's friends, though. They're pretty smart folks.

Which just made me wonder -- what about Joe's friends? Are they all the people at the club he goes to? Has the (almost) well-adjusted out-the-closet guy been only making superficial friendships? It would make a kind of sense for it to go either way.

I've been wondering the same thing. Where are Joe's friends? We've only seen Chris'.

I've been wondering the same thing. Where are Joe's friends? We've only seen Chris'.

Actually, we've really only seen Steve's. Though I'm not sure they count, as they're in-laws.

Joe doesn't have much in the way of close friends. He socializes occasionally with the people from work (though given his position and the fact that he's single, not very often) but it's mostly acquaintances and guys he used to date and has sort of stayed in touch with. He's never been all that good at keeping close friends.

I'll admit, this is sort of after-the-fact rationalization, though it fits the character. Given the relatively tight timescale and the number of characters I had to juggle, I cut out Joe's social life basically for convenience reasons. (Plus he was, at the beginning of the story, still in the 'shiny new relationship' phase, so his friends would've gotten ignored a bit)

Is it worth fixing that in the rewrite? I'm making notes as to what should be done, and definitely soliciting opinions.

Is it worth fixing that in the rewrite? I'm making notes as to what should be done, and definitely soliciting opinions.

Not unless it grabs you and demands being mentioned. I think that some of us are doing the Fan thing and getting way involved in every nuance, which is fun, but not necessarily the way other people read these things.

To me Joe seems like a person who is capable of tremendous loyalty, and who probably craves someone to be loyal to -- not justn a lover but also friends -- but he has real reasons to be wary. Chronologically first, there's the fact that his brother and his brother's friends tormented hin: that his earliest relationships were ones he had to flee to save himself: then there's his being, honestly, haunted by his second sight: and then there's fallout from that -- for example, he participates in a social context where drinking is normal and he can't drink. I suspect that part of the reason he fell in love with Alex in the first place, besides the fact that Alex is a shadow of the man he's most drawn to, is that he wanted so much to -- not just for the romantic rush of being in love, but for the intimacy and connectedness of the long haul.

See, I got this without any more than what's already there, but if you wanted to underline all this, you could do it with a couple of well-placed phrases here and there.

Now, I take in all the evidence that Lucy just pointed out, and to me they justify an opposite set of character traits. The Joe I imagine has not had many, or any, close friends in his life, partly because of his experiences as a child, but also because he has to come off as bit odd to anyone that doesn't have or believe in psychic abilities. He can tell when someone is lying, and he doesn't exactly react quietly when set off. I bet that has trashed more than one childhood friendship, when he reacted inappropriately to some kid trying to pull a fast one. He doesn't drink, and sometimes can't tell the here and now from the was, might, and wished it were. I think he fell in love with Alex so hard and so fast was because Alex accepted him totally, and for once the second sight did not hinder a connection, instead being the direct cause of that connection.

So really, do what you want. I will point out that the ability to form friendships that don't stem from forced propinquity might be an interesting note of contrast between Joe, Chris, and Steve. Toby too, I suppose.

Now, I take in all the evidence that Lucy just pointed out, and to me they justify an opposite set of character traits. The Joe I imagine has not had many, or any, close friends in his life, partly because of his experiences as a child, but also because he has to come off as bit odd to anyone that doesn't have or believe in psychic abilities. He can tell when someone is lying, and he doesn't exactly react quietly when set off. I bet that has trashed more than one childhood friendship, when he reacted inappropriately to some kid trying to pull a fast one. He doesn't drink, and sometimes can't tell the here and now from the was, might, and wished it were. I think he fell in love with Alex so hard and so fast was because Alex accepted him totally, and for once the second sight did not hinder a connection, instead being the direct cause of that connection.

 

So really, do what you want. I will point out that the ability to form friendships that don't stem from forced propinquity might be an interesting note of contrast between Joe, Chris, and Steve. Toby too, I suppose.

I actually think you're right, except that I don't think these are mutually exclusive interpretations.

Joe's also been very driven. He grew up lower class and he wanted out in the worst way. That drive got him out (he's doing quite well -- I tried to make the contrast between Joe as he was now with his family when they showed up) but he paid a price for the drive. Probably worth it, given where he was coming from, but there is a certain lonliness. His temper helped get him out, but it didn't help him make any good long term relationships.

This is one of the places where he and Chris mesh well. Chris' background is similar to Joe's. Not the same, certainly, but they both share enough that I think it makes it more believable that they get on together. (Since there's got to be more than just enthusiastic sex to keep a couple together)

They are so going to end up fighting over money and do stupid guy jockeying for position, but that's for later.