Sayreville teen dies after opening up bus roof hatch, striking head

[hh5]

you forgot that in humanity the one becomes so important than the many

Yes, Titanic, one life lost is as tragic as 1200 ...

the 1200 is still be one even thou 700 were saved

but what results of evolution of the industry is millions of people saved

thats the many

that translate to reoccurring revenue that builds up the cruising industry by transforming it

 

We all known the exit hatch or sunroof has been the serious issue for 40 years

Now with social media ... perhaps this is a chance for this industry to answer for this long awaited issue

it sad to say that minor may have become the martar for this unresolved issue

If he becomes the one ... then those in NYC will make his legacy live on

transforming the status quo of the limo industry

I can't tell you how many lives would be saved but it does matter

 

You forgot humanity won't improve without a death and a battle ... some thing to answer for the call of change

 

Our industrialization is not pro-active ,,, parts of it is ...

But this one company might become active in the public eye that could represent a coming of industry change

Its all up to the parents, the students, the community ... how they want to remember this minor

 

It sounds like you don't understand the fabric of humanity

 

you made nice dramatic argumentative reactions ... purely entertainment

but you are placing blame ... you are blaming me or this thread

you wish to always argue with someone, I've noticed it in other threads

 

rather than sticking to facts ...

sharing something constructive of your own making of your thoughts of the issue

rather than being reactive

 

whatever happens in NYC we will see it unfold if it get publish

 

whatever u say or I say ... doesn't matter ...

we will witness humanity in making

 

if they want to rule it no ones fault and do nothing to improve the limo\party-bus industry

 

the issue will be answered on a future date with another victim

so be it

 

We may agree or disagree the results of how this events unfolds

 

we're just observers ... specters of their lives .. they won't know or care what we think ... they don't read our threads

 

its not really our crusade ... everything is in their hands of NYC\NJ

 

This is the most laughable argument I ever heard. You are comparing different situations. The Titantic claim would make sense if those kids were placed in seat beat and some one crashes into them and the kids weren't allowed to take off the seat beat and then the bus explodes killing them all... would be comparable.

 

Jesus was preaching a religion unlike this boy who stuck his head out the window. It would be comparable say this kids was preaching to the other kids and the security guard didn't like and shoved him up through the hatch so the kid could get killed.

 

Joan of Arc was serving in a war. She was the casualty of war. Your arguement would make sense if the kid was leading and charging it's bus load of people to demonstrate and protest or fight a cause and the folks from the other side or even police came and pushed him through the hatch and thus had him killed.

 

Of course, with visions as diluted as yours you can always blame others. Because every circumstance is the same for you.

 

I guess someone just wants to world to be dumber longer, to teach our children to be idiots, and have no accountability, for they are "kids" and have no repercussions because it isn't their fault. So that more folks can die because they can blame other folks. People what you did wrong isn't your fault, it's someone else's fault. And when you are deemed "mature" enough you magically become smart, knowing, and retain common sense... it's not through personal experience and the experience of others... it's magic. So the next time you ride an airplane go open that emergency hatch and stick your head out into the sky because you derserve that curiosity. Enjoy it. Because if something happened, it's not your fault. It's the airline's fault. Go play with that locked up gun in your house. If you kill someone it's not your fault, it's the gun maker and sellers fault. When you fail your classes, it's not your fault, it's your teacher's and professor's fault. Because you are young and have no responsibility. Because you obviously can't make a choice.

 

Sorry. But I'm done here. This discussion is getting ridiculous and someone has this make believe sense that lacks all common sense to see the world as is. Always blaming others for your mistake just shows that Darwin should take you out of this world. I guess people should be sueing car makers and alcohol makers for drunk driving accidents. Or car makers for accidents period. Because they are capitalizing off of people, because you know they are forcing us to buy vehicles. Or scientists for engineering such possible feat because people weren't told that driving at a certain speed and crashing would equate to death. Because when people decide to drink and drive it's not their fault.Those people who get into wrecks its not their fault because the means were provided for them. They should be required to think and say," If I do this I can hurt other people."

 

So all those teen killers and rapist. Go tell their vicitims that it's not the fault of the murderer and rapist. The murderer and rapist weren't taught correctly. That they are young and don't know any better because you know as a human being we don't know at all that raping and killing is not wrong.

 

You're arguments may make sense to a person who lacks any self accountability. Who thinks whatever they do is right and never their fault. Your arguments are perfect for the people who start wars, racism, and homophobia because why should these people know any better. It's not their fault if they hate on gay peoples. They just were taught better so when they beat and tie a person to a fence post, they have no accountability. Someone else is at fault.

 

Edited September 3, 2012 by hh5

[hh5]

>> 1. Was the bus company breaking any laws?

>> 2. Did the bus company make any misrepresentations to the parents or the children themselves?

 

Currently we can assume that both the driver and SG are suspended from duty until an investigation is completed.

The company will have to gather all kinds of evidence to file with the port authority and city bureaus

The accident left a load of paper work for all those involved.

It will take some time before the bus is release from being impounded and pay a fine.

What the company will do with all this extra expense and lost sales is another issue.

Because we don't know if a lawsuit will happen.

 

I not sure what it will mean when the bus company makes an apology and charges a lot more than the package price of the booking.

That's a private matter there.

 

If the parents pursue a court case they would review the evidence with their lawyer

* Get a copy of the Bus video recordings, if any.

* A timeline of what happen

* All the Testimonies taken by the various witness which includes the driver and SG, minors

* Background checks of the driver and SG

* Results of the investigations of the various bureaus

Then the lawyer will see what case they have or not

 

The other things like emotional damages etc that's a very sticky issue. It might breakup the friendship of the families.

 

The questions asked is part of the evidence of the parents who booked and inquired may have been recorded by the CSR.

So transcripts of that would have be requested by the lawyer.

 

There is doubt that we would hear about what happen after the funeral, if they are pursing a case or not.

 

>> Did they say there would be 3 chaperones when only 1 was present?

 

A rep said No Chaperones were present.

The booking requirements are not posted on their website.

I not pursuing investigation or trying to be a reporter with the bus company

This is their matter to take up with a lawyer.

 

It doesn't make sense to have one SG do all the work with handling 65 teens

The question one hopes to be answered if the parents were sold by the CSR on the idea of no chaperons required.

We don't know if any of the parents wanted to look after the minors.

 

I am not sure how many dance parities were ever held at the strict catholic school they go to.

So we don't know that case if the parents ever thought about chaperoning.

No idea what discussion were held in this topic.

 

>> Did they tell them (if even asked) that escape hatches cannot be opened on a moving vehicle?

 

 

That's a court question

LOL, the company is there to sell a service rather than spell out safety issues than would scare the client from considering their service.

If asked specifically they would restate gov law and perhaps someone would get arrested and charged and fined.

But still subject to what happen. The company could pursue to sue the client.

 

Its a grey area for them to talk about past history of abuse of opening hatches by clients.

The CSR will simply state they don't know about that and may refer them to another department.

 

We could presume they made preparations for the booking by talking with their minors. Going over safety.

We presume that the company have some sort of transportation video about safety required by gov.

We don't know if the minors were involved with the booking or talking with the CSR.

We don't know the families.

 

You do miss the point. The minors sort of treat this like a prom party.

Planning what kind of fun they are going to have on the bus.

Smuggling booze, daring some minor to pop his head out of the hatch, some pranks

 

They all come from a strict catholic school.

We don't know how micro-manged the minors are in their life.

This party is their chance to unwind and have their kind of fun because of the opportunity of no parents.

Depending upon what they considered to do, did they figure the responsibility of opening the hatch.

We don't know the social structure of the 65 teens.

 

We may have elements of the perfect storm created by human events.

 

As I said its up to the court to decide a lot of the issues in the accident on the disposition of whoever is involved.

 

Your skipped the SG who may be employed by the company or contracted out to this company

* The question is if he has experience in handling minors

* The SG said he was frustrated in handling the minor

A line of questioning and video would answer a lot of questions.

* By cross examination by a lawyer they would ask if he consider the following

* Upon the third warning

Could you have wip your cell phone and have the minor call his parent

Talk to the parents and the parent would talk to the minor to clear up matter,

* Did you ever consider explaining to the minor that he be arrested and explained that he would get hurt by stinking his body out while the bus is moving.

 

 

The lawyer can go over the actual event and question

* Did you convince the minor to promise to not open the hatch?

* Did it look like you would have give a 5th warning?

* Why didn't do something at the third warning?

Were you too lenient on the minor?

Did you realized the minor was fixated in doing something that will put him into danger?

Did you know that the first three miles or so has low bridges?

* Did you realize in the events that happen that you distracted the driver while the minor still had the intention of opening the hatch.

etc etc

 

I am not determining anything or what the actual outcomes of a possible trial.

I am saying there is potential for various outcomes with respect to various parties involved.

 

Someone said the company and the various gov org may sue or counter sue the parents.

So its a stalemate.

 

From here on we watch what happens and we might not get to know what a judge has determined.

A lawsuit is to bring disagreeing parties to legal outcome.

 

I am not blaming anyone. I am just spelling out the evidence of the matter its not a blame.

 

What can be learned from it? What can be changed about the 40 yr industry issue about the hatch?

Get the judge to understand that warning are not effective with minors seeking a thrill and that the route between NY Wash Bridge to NJ is a potential hazard with double Decker party buses when minors open the hatch. This would be some sort of petition that the industry has to change and they will have to figure out how to discourage minors from have thrills with the hatch.

 

Lastly, we won't know how the bureaus and the bus company will interact in this matter, there might be changes or other issue we won't be able to discuss. It could be bushiness as usual file the paper, pay fines, and return to business.

 

We don't know if the bureaus will send fines to the minors parents.

[John Doe]

It sounds like you don't understand the fabric of humanity

 

Right. As if you have a complete understanding also. I'm sorry humanity is not something anyone can understand completely because it is filled with a vast array of people with different personalities and beliefs. To suggest even the inkling of an idea that someone can understand humanity is a joke. We can only understand humanity in the vaguest sense.

 

you wish to always argue with someone, I've noticed it in other threads

 

God forbid I disagree with someone and express my opinion. I don't wish to argue for the sake of argument. I just thought I'd sahred my thoughts as you have. People can like what I said or dislike it. But if you dislike, don't box me as someone who looking and "wishing" (aka wanting) to argue. We're people with different experiences and we won't always see eye to eye on things. I wasn't going to comment on this thread anymore, but I couldn't ignore this comment. There has been a handful of times I have argued with people. Most of them in the soapbox and a few outside, but I don't go out looking for them. I don't troll the site. Most times, I state my opinion and there's an equally passionate response back. I tend to get a bit sarcastic when I present my thoughts, it's who I am. I'm that way with my friends and such. In fact, I'm relatively silent compared to some other posters. What's the point of a discussio without being able to state your opinion. A one sided view on things is not a discussion.

 

I did address your comparisons that you brought up. It may be "dramatic" and "entertainment" but they were valid arguements as they suggested that the circumstances were completely different. But of course, to you they must have not been because someone has to be blamed and it can't be the kid.

 

but you are placing blame ... you are blaming me or this thread

 

 

Nope, I said it before and I will say it again. I am blaming the kid. His actions are his own responsibility.

 

Yes, as a group (humanity) we need to be accountible for our own actions. As such, as individiduals, we also need to be responsible for our actions. The cases you presented are different in scope than to the bus case. Jesus was a religious leader persecuted because of this fact. Joan of Arc was a military leader caught and killed by her enemies. The issues with Titantic was the lower class was locked against their will in under the decks of the ship - they didn't have the freedom to move around and make their own choice. The boy in the bus did. So find a better comparison and bring it up so I can take the discussion more seriously. Those that you mentioned are different in circumstances. Yes, I believe the events that unfold on the Titantic were not the victims fault as they were restricted in what they could do. Their very freedom for the duration of that voyage was restricted. So those in charge of Titantic had to take responsibility. The lack of life boat was at the fault of the ship folks too, so again those who created the Titantic was again at fault. The boy had the choice to stick his head out in the hatch or not. Emergency hatches are for emergency use. That's why they are called "emergency" hatches. The bus was not in an emergency situation unlike the Titantic. Your Titantic argument will work had the bus was in an emergency situation. If someone fails to ignore the labeling and dies it's their fault, much like if someone fails to read directions or read the warning labels. Heck, garbage disposals don't come with a warning label and yet people know not to stick their hands in the disposals while it's on or flick it on when their hand is down the drain and yet from time to time there are accidents with the disposal and yet no one is sueing the garbage disposal companys for better "product" or "warning."

 

I do see your points. You want it to be safter so future people won't get hurt. I'm not ignoring that fact. But regardless of how many warnings or how many public service announcements you make people will still get hurt. There are still drunk drivers. There are still killers. There are still kids who will still stick their heads out of an emergency hatch on the second deck of a two story bus .

 

And I'm going to be a bit sarcastic here. You can't put common sense into people who ignore their own good judgment and or laws or regulations. Hence, the fault would be theirs alone. I saw a few memes the other day and though seemingly harsh they target the issue of people lacking common sense and wanting to blame other people or things.

 

"Everything happens for a reason, but sometimes the reason is that you're stupid and make bad decisions."

 

Again, the boy chose to stick his head out the emergency hatch in a non emergency situation even after being told by an authority figure multiple times. If you revoke his choice in the matter to not count then you have to revoke the choices other people make to not count. You cannot make exceptions. Emergency hatches are manual capable becuase they need to be in emergnecy cases. If the bus flips and damage is done to the electrical component of the bus and say there's an gas/oil leak and a fire starts and the emergency hatch is solely sensored controled (thus electrically control) what will you do then when the electrical emergency hatch is broken and won't open? Boom. Everyone trapted in the bus who weren't close to a door or couldn't climb out of an opening in time dies.

 

With all this said and done, I'm not jumping for joy that the boy died. Neither do I think he deserved to die. Just for clarification in case, someone out there wants to assume otherwise. Like I said before, the circumstances are sad though the choice lacked common sense and thought.

 

If you fail to see (or refuse to read and understand what I'm saying that's you're perogative.

 

Because there was a comment made in regards to me, specifically, I felt like I had to response (which I have no issues with. I am willing to clarify my thoughts). But this thread is no longer just a informative thread and rather a debate and unless it's moved to the soapbox I won't make any more comments in this thread.

[hh5]

Thank you for your response, John.

 

Yes, I have to agree the minor does share the blame. I may have forgot to agree with that fact.

But his death was preventable in this case if the SG was trained in handling minors.

We don't know the planning of intentions by the group of minors had with the hatch.

How this minor was selected and dared to do it.

We don't know if he acted totally on his own choice.

We don't have any evidence except he got himself killed.

 

I disagree with the public outcry to disrespect the minor.

This was the same treatment with Clementi case.

They blame him personally and his action.

They blame him with all their hate they can find when he only did one stupid action.

They make it everything and that hurts the mother and the family.

 

Perhaps the minor is lucky that he didn't cause the death of others through his actions.

 

I point out there's room for improvements for the SG and the operating procedure.

Learning better skills to handle the situation for he didn't handle well.

 

Thank you for going over the possible impossible improvements to the hatch.

I still leave the design issue to the engineers.

But perhaps they could put a crash detection device on the bus that will release the lock on the hatch.

The lock can be made to be normally unlock when is looses power.

The back of the bus can have two hidden back doors.

The sun roofs can also be modified.

The windows designed so the passengers could break the glass to exit the bus.

Again the engineers and designers can work out all the details

The industry has the historic information about the use of the hatch and other exit contingencies.

 

The hatch can be hidden behind a drop ceiling ...

so the passengers won't directly look for it during party time.

The industry can continue to warn the passengers against illegal use of exits for enjoyment.

Enforce it when they can.

 

Has any one heard of any stories regarding school n metro-buses

where minors opened back doors and hatches? I'm sure there are cases.

I bet the hatches have been played with but I'm not sure about the door.

I bet there was a someone that got hurt just like this minor but it was long ago.

 

But they can always put alarms on the hatches as well as a flashing red lights on the dash board.

They can also give verbal warnings that sound off once the first seal or step has been tampered with.

 

There's so many ideas that can be considered on improving the hatches.

Single Decker Buses and limos may not need these improvements.

If the SDB needs it then it can be added optionally.

Some Limos tend to make their hatch a sun roof only

while other kept it as a moon roof and put up with the problem.

 

For Titanic, I defer to the senate and British hearing cases

The White Star Line defend it as an accident and she sank in one whole peace

Nobody ever knew of the tragedy was due to negligence of WSL

The Senate ruled it the right way but have no power to enforce or jail WSL officers

but suggest changes to the Olympic class ships

The Brits ruled it as an accident ... a lost

The the british commission was very lenient.

WSL just complied with the changes and made their own design modifications.

Paid the lowest settlements possible of 664,000USD rather than millions.

I never head that any officer of the WSL was ever put in jail for the sinking.

For 85 yrs the White Star Line did everything they could to improve these ships.

But still these ships sunk no matter how they tried to make it as safe as possible.

However the passengers where able to abandon ship during their sinking.

WSL merged with a Germany company and made the Queen Mary Type ships.

They didn't have any incidents of sinking with these class ships.

 

In theory WSL was never at fault.

Its only 85years plus the last 20 years we've found the evidence WSL was the bad guy.

But they covered it all up and burned all the evidence.

We're out of luck we can't put them in jail.

We're lucky we didn't carry the blame to the decendents.

 

The Jesus reference is for his helping of others. Some of us has followed his example.

This is just an example; other religions have theirs because we're all human.

Joan of Arc reference was her fighting of her country (where women were not allowed to fight)

Discounting she was killed by her enemy. She was doing what she can do to help her country.

 

The idea is that we do what we can to help improve things.

From a far we can help the mother of the dead minor move on, if it helps.

Its disrespectful to send hate mail to her family or leave bad comments on the internet for her and the family to find.

Those messages can hurt them as well but can't hurt an already dead minor.

 

Part of the healing is what can be done thru our system of justice and national\local gov't.

 

We only change because something tragic happen.

Titanic has been used as the universal example of the Perfect Storm.

We think of Titanic when trageties happen.

 

We're not proactive and there are many examples of why.

 

The lost of minors aboard Titanic they were the third class while most of the minors of first class were saved. This is part of the class warfare mentality carried out by the WSL who profited on the backs of the third class and the workers about Titanic. You do know the foreign workers were prevented from going to the life boats as well.

 

This is a historic hate message because it is the example of the survival of the fittest.

The first class is the flower of Darwism.

 

The hate message people left about the minor was in reference to Darwisim to say he was unfit.

They imply he wasn't useful to humanity. He is a disgrace.

 

The people don't realize the minor is minority. The third class was also a minority.

 

We're sending hate messages of all forms for years

That's why I listed Class Warfare, Racism, Anti-Gay, Nazism, etc.

Some of us instinctively go to this place inside of us and we don't realize it.

 

They become part of the problem and they don't wish to help improve things by change.

 

Yes good point it will still happen ...

but we do what we can to save those we can ... by education, design, and how we do things.

 

The argument for "it still can happen" is because the gov't pick the lowest cost solution.

The lobbyest and business do not want to pay the extra cost to save lives.

 

As I said its bad business, it better we save lives because the more people we can put to work the more money gov't and business can get as revenue. It reoccuring income. We can solve our ecomonic issues like healthcare, Taxes, etc. We can reform the employment model.

 

When we argue about downgrading adulthood to age16. It not wise because they are not adults that has reach their full potential by accepted education level in the USA. After college is when most can support themselves. We argue the downgrade because the young has decide to grow up to fast. Proving personal responsiblity arguement. The reality is thats because a young couple made an error in having children. (Yes your right they still do it and we still try to educate). We've expanded the poverty level and create social programs to help them. But our economy is shutting down these programs. We have to acknowlege the downgrade can not carry out personal responsible things without help. Thus we reinforce they are minors.

 

Back to the Jesus reference. Minors we help them no matter what age they are. We protect them as best as we can from their own mistakes even though they will do it again and again until they reach adulthood. Thats why the SG needs to learn to handle minors. Yeah its a little extra work but its worth it rather than all the paperwork and suspension and litigation.

 

Look there are a type of people who grow up into adults by age but we have to look out for their best interest until the day they die. Yes, they could make similiar mistakes like the minors because they will never mature in their mind. Some of us make bad remarks about them. But its fortuante that some will never understand the meaning. But some do understand and the damage could be permanent and caretakers that care for them are hurt because they are seen as innocent and helpless.

 

Our country helps the underdog because its "in god we trust"

 

Oh this thread will update when there is new factual information ... if anyone is still interested

The wheels of progress takes time.

 

 

-- Funny thing to press on about the hatch ... on Titanic the crew didn't practice responsibly when they left the starboard side cargo hatch open ... they failed to close it when the boats refused to come around to the hatch during two incidents in regards to adding more passengers to maximized the number of saved ... the crew members on the boats acted on their own fears rather than following the commands of their officers aboard Titanic ... Titanic flooded sooner when the water came in on their Broadway deck ... who knows how much more time it could have been bought if someone practice responsibility by closing the hatch after use.

 

During urgency there can be accidents where personal responsibility is not entirely followed. On Titanic it was the flooding (and more) and on the party bus it was the extreme heat of a malfunctioning AC and still partying teens. People act differently under certain types of stress. If the press uncovers more about why the accident occurred then we all be understanding of what humanly went wrong.

 

Right. As if you have a complete understanding also. I'm sorry humanity is not something anyone can understand completely because it is filled with a vast array of people with different personalities and beliefs. To suggest even the inkling of an idea that someone can understand humanity is a joke. We can only understand humanity in the vaguest sense.

 

 

 

God forbid I disagree with someone and express my opinion. I don't wish to argue for the sake of argument. I just thought I'd sahred my thoughts as you have. People can like what I said or dislike it. But if you dislike, don't box me as someone who looking and "wishing" (aka wanting) to argue. We're people with different experiences and we won't always see eye to eye on things. I wasn't going to comment on this thread anymore, but I couldn't ignore this comment. There has been a handful of times I have argued with people. Most of them in the soapbox and a few outside, but I don't go out looking for them. I don't troll the site. Most times, I state my opinion and there's an equally passionate response back. I tend to get a bit sarcastic when I present my thoughts, it's who I am. I'm that way with my friends and such. In fact, I'm relatively silent compared to some other posters. What's the point of a discussio without being able to state your opinion. A one sided view on things is not a discussion.

 

I did address your comparisons that you brought up. It may be "dramatic" and "entertainment" but they were valid arguements as they suggested that the circumstances were completely different. But of course, to you they must have not been because someone has to be blamed and it can't be the kid.

 

 

 

Nope, I said it before and I will say it again. I am blaming the kid. His actions are his own responsibility.

 

Yes, as a group (humanity) we need to be accountible for our own actions. As such, as individiduals, we also need to be responsible for our actions. The cases you presented are different in scope than to the bus case. Jesus was a religious leader persecuted because of this fact. Joan of Arc was a military leader caught and killed by her enemies. The issues with Titantic was the lower class was locked against their will in under the decks of the ship - they didn't have the freedom to move around and make their own choice. The boy in the bus did. So find a better comparison and bring it up so I can take the discussion more seriously. Those that you mentioned are different in circumstances. Yes, I believe the events that unfold on the Titantic were not the victims fault as they were restricted in what they could do. Their very freedom for the duration of that voyage was restricted. So those in charge of Titantic had to take responsibility. The lack of life boat was at the fault of the ship folks too, so again those who created the Titantic was again at fault. The boy had the choice to stick his head out in the hatch or not. Emergency hatches are for emergency use. That's why they are called "emergency" hatches. The bus was not in an emergency situation unlike the Titantic. Your Titantic argument will work had the bus was in an emergency situation. If someone fails to ignore the labeling and dies it's their fault, much like if someone fails to read directions or read the warning labels. Heck, garbage disposals don't come with a warning label and yet people know not to stick their hands in the disposals while it's on or flick it on when their hand is down the drain and yet from time to time there are accidents with the disposal and yet no one is sueing the garbage disposal companys for better "product" or "warning."

 

I do see your points. You want it to be safter so future people won't get hurt. I'm not ignoring that fact. But regardless of how many warnings or how many public service announcements you make people will still get hurt. There are still drunk drivers. There are still killers. There are still kids who will still stick their heads out of an emergency hatch on the second deck of a two story bus .

 

And I'm going to be a bit sarcastic here. You can't put common sense into people who ignore their own good judgment and or laws or regulations. Hence, the fault would be theirs alone. I saw a few memes the other day and though seemingly harsh they target the issue of people lacking common sense and wanting to blame other people or things.

 

"Everything happens for a reason, but sometimes the reason is that you're stupid and make bad decisions."

 

Again, the boy chose to stick his head out the emergency hatch in a non emergency situation even after being told by an authority figure multiple times. If you revoke his choice in the matter to not count then you have to revoke the choices other people make to not count. You cannot make exceptions. Emergency hatches are manual capable becuase they need to be in emergnecy cases. If the bus flips and damage is done to the electrical component of the bus and say there's an gas/oil leak and a fire starts and the emergency hatch is solely sensored controled (thus electrically control) what will you do then when the electrical emergency hatch is broken and won't open? Boom. Everyone trapted in the bus who weren't close to a door or couldn't climb out of an opening in time dies.

 

With all this said and done, I'm not jumping for joy that the boy died. Neither do I think he deserved to die. Just for clarification in case, someone out there wants to assume otherwise. Like I said before, the circumstances are sad though the choice lacked common sense and thought.

 

If you fail to see (or refuse to read and understand what I'm saying that's you're perogative.

 

Because there was a comment made in regards to me, specifically, I felt like I had to response (which I have no issues with. I am willing to clarify my thoughts). But this thread is no longer just a informative thread and rather a debate and unless it's moved to the soapbox I won't make any more comments in this thread.

 

Edited September 16, 2012 by hh5

[hh5]

http://gothamist.com...ty_bus_acci.php

 

news really doesn't get the facts straight until you hit another article ... there is diff between a Guard and a bus monitor ... its service ... they don't stick around in one place, they have different duties as needed ranging from picking up trash, serving drinks, warn the hatch, instruct the teens when dancing is over, change the venue of music, try to keep order, work with the bus driver in case of an altercation or emergency

 

this seems to coincide with the comparison of other bus services, there is no authority to enforce if they are attendants. Its still strange that monitor gave an interview. I bet his actions will be scrutinized and the bus company might come down on him like this interview.

 

 

You can wonder about the bus company when they where planning to put double decker buses into service. Did they ever think about the possibility that they are on the edge of violating safety? Sure the bus fulfilling gov safety standards but those standards are not rated for teen mischief. Did they review the possible mischief issues with a taller bus?

 

Now they have actual experience to add to their 30 years of service that they learn something new from expanding their operations thinking they can profit a lot since not many other bus companies are doing double Decker bus charters.

 

Gosh, they should have had chaperons since they really didn't have a security guard. The bus company may change their policy and instruct chaperons to keep alert against teen mischief. I bet the officer of the company is going to get internally chewed for overlooking teen mischief ... even though they served within gov law just barely when it comes to teens.

 

I wonder if the teens ever raided the bar for booze when the monitor wasn't there. There is evidence they had plans.

 

The over pass is 14ft and the bus is 13ft .. the minor would have to climb over one foot to get his head hit ... perhaps he was trying to look pass the hatch cover ... when his head was struck ... perhaps he could have been trying to take some pictures with his smart phone.

 

the funeral was close casket, 500 people came to the funeral, the grandma was feeling upset and fainted, its mourning mode so its really hard to tell if the parents are going to sue, their using the news as warning to all

 

Because of social media and news, it seems likely the lawyer from "Sweet Hereafter" will come knocking at their door or even come to the funeral, introducing himself, and leaving his calling card. Perhaps requesting to visit them since this is not an outskirt town. I bet local channel five, nine, and eleven news has already barrage the bus company and parents for interviews.

 

The minor is describe as low key, makes me wonder if the parents are the same. This could support the idea of not wanting to pursue a lawsuit unless convince by the lawyer from hell that it wasn't an accident. Proof can come from movies that influence the passion to try mischief. Like in the movie BIG, Tom Hanks popping his head out of the limo roof, other movies doing the same like on Prom night, party night, date night. It gives an idea that this is a city tradition even thought its against the law. But the movies doesn't make that distinction. It influence mischievous behavior to cross lines with a double Decker bus. Personal responsibility is put aside when fun and party mode is the overriding factor with the added flavor of looking for fun to do. Have you not notice at various parties how many people cross the PR line?

 

A news person said Bergen county launch an investigation and charges may be filed.

 

To whom and what charges?

If they rule it an accident will no charges will be file?

 

Lots of bureau n org love to launch so many investigations that over lap each other to protect themselves from a lawsuit even if this may be seen as an accident.

 

Teen Killed In Freak Party Bus Accident "Wasn't A Stupid Kid"

 

His friends told NBC New York, "We went from dancing and singing to, like, 'Oh, my God, what just happened?'" and "He knew right from wrong, and I just really don't know what possessed him to do that... [He] wasn't a stupid kid."

 

the teens were discussing getting "sauced" and Fernandez even Tweeted asking friends if "they [were] checking on the bus?" A monitor for the bus said previously that he repeatedly warned the teens not to open the hatch

 

One of his St. Francis Prep teachers told the AP, "He was an adorable, low-key kid, with a sweet smile. Kids loved him; he had lots of friends and was popular with the girls," adding, "Sometimes kids don't recognize their own mortality."

 

Edited September 5, 2012 by hh5

[hh5]

Double Decker buses resurface in the USA in 2006

 

For NYC, they started a pilot program in 2008. Before that it was in the 1978.

These buses used to go up and down Fifth Ave for decades prior to the 1953.

 

The reasons in the 78 that they stop using the buses was that they required a lot of maintenance.

In the 50s they were discontinued because of the lack of manufacturer and competition.

 

The issue in 2008 with the buses was with the Senior citizens and the disabled. The seats for them are at the back of the bus.

That proves to be an extreme inconvenience, I rather say its also a safety issue to expose them to dangerous movements aboard a bus just so they could find the their guarantee seat. I would also think its hard for the driver to see to that a Senior or Disabled would get a seat on-board this kind of bus.

 

NYC saw these buses as a cost saving measure. A DDB from Belgium cost 650K and 900K from a regular bus I believe the article I read is saying.

 

I can't say what happen to the one month trial program since I left NYC in 2006,

 

It is a popular with the tour bus industry and I have not found when they got started in NYC. I do remember the Red double Decker tour buses - I presume that was something like Big Apple Bus tours.

 

I do wonder how much of NYC can withstand the weight of DDB fully loaded with passengers. I wonder if the Belgium made bus was able to handle the extreme conditions in NYC. I suppose it can handle the winter because of the weight.

 

Has any one had a ride in these buses? it must be loads of fun!! I like that seen with Wil Smith dropping in on an open deck DDB in MIB one.

[hh5]

Actually your parents intention was to keep your head in the car ... they succeeded ... even if u got stung by a bee ... she'll say "see what I mean"

 

Many years ago like in the 20s-50s, nothing would be done by the gov't or business, news sometimes didn't travel very far ... sometimes the article is buried in the paper or the news piece is put out on tv where most ppl aren't watching. The victims could not afford to sue.

Zero Accountability .. Zero Change

 

In the 20s-50s nothing will be done, even if the bus company was at fault

 

Today something will be done, Accountability is being argued ... everyone trying to figure out ... what changes comes next

Right now its in the hands of parents across the country .. the ball is now in the other parties head (pun)

 

Accountability is not always visible and its a case by case basis

The bus company will handled it and we would never know how they handled it with the bus driver or monitor

Your parents handled accountability with you and we didn't know about it until this thread

 

Yes the minor has his share of accountability but it was override by party mode and mischievousness

It was blatantly obvious and if the monitor had the right training he could have prevented it

The monitor didn't see it nor had the instinct or ignored his instinct ... perhaps its not his fault ... but he has his lesson

but for the company image ... they may improve their service

 

If it happens next time to him, he now knows he has a choice in the matter

I guess those that don't have to be told or taught but saves lives ... we call them unsung Heroes

 

If no one knew meaning no one had reason to warn then yes that was a tragic accident

If your parent didn't know your finger hit a bee ever .. its tragic but you still got your head n u got your personal lesson

if your parents saw you stick your hand out the window, didn't do anything about it, and your hand got severed ...

its not just you who will feel accountability but she would too but you still have your head intact

perhaps the monitor sort of feels that way too but the minor isn't his kid ... its less personal

 

We don't know what else this monitor feels about the situation ... until next time he'll lets us know

The driver ... we don't know ...

 

There is one case

What if you had a child and never had to spank nor discipline because he never got into trouble

one day ... he got his head knocked off

but everyone blames him more than feels sorry

where as you got a child that always tests people to the limits and gets into mischief and everyone yells at him

one day ... he got his head knocked off

what is people reaction?

 

One could argue that the bus company could have reasonably foreseen this might happen and didn't do enough to protect the passengers. But let's look at this a little differently, by taking some of the drama out of it: My parents told me never to stick my hand out of a moving car. They drilled it into me every chance they got. I'm sure most parents still tell their kids the exact the same thing, even in these days that back windows can be locked from the front. That's because we all know that bad things could happen. So now I'm 16 years old, my parents have long allowed me to control the back window like I want, the temperature in the car is fine, but I'm wearing a nice jacket and I don't want to sweat in it, so I open the window. And then, I unthinkingly stick my hand out, maybe to feel the cool breeze, or to do that airplane wing game, and I get stung by a bee. Is there any way my parents could possibly be held accountable?

 

Edited September 5, 2012 by hh5

[hh5]

well more news

 

He wasn't decapitated, just got his smashed in. From what I can tell it was a forward lifting hatch, so when the hatch hit the underpass it hit his head and his head hit the top of the bus.

---------------------------------

The unsupervised teens, in an effort to release heat from the upper cabin of the bus, opened a roof access emergency hatch, and that is when the victim popped his head out, striking the overpass.

A security guard hired to protect the teens said he warned this kids about the hatch, ”I told them not to open the hatch, like three or four times, but kids, they don’t understand,” he said.

The guard left the mischievous kids to complain to the driver about the heat - and that proved a fatal mistake. The teens took his absence as their cue to crack open the safety hatch.

“It was very hot. Everybody was dancing. Two, five minutes I was downstairs,” the guard said. “Then I heard two guys screaming, ‘Oh, my God, oh, my God.’”

-----------------------------------

I feel bad for the security guard. You know he's going to end up on the losing end of a lawsuit even though he scolded them several times and then tried to do them a favor by going to speak to the driver about the heat.

 

 

The accident is systemic .. one thing lead to another

* We really don't know the kind of chat the monitor had with the Teens about the heat ...

* We don't know if the teens complaint directly to the driver

* They been on the road for 0:45 to 1:45

* some time during the ride and the dancing the AC started to not work ...

* what was the monitor and driver doing before the hatch argument?

* There are digital temperature gauges .. the driver would have also felt the heat as well .. he would be uncomfortable because it was the whole bus was hot

 

I am sure the investigation will look at the events ..

 

if the AC worked then the minor would not take his own initiative to open the hatch ... take charge of the situation in his own way .. mischievous may have not been the motive ... impatience .. dissatisfaction of the service

 

perhaps its kinda of an argument between the teens n the monitor about opening the hatch to vent the heat ... you have to open the hatch all the way ... it won't stay open by releasing the latch ... it means your arm and part of your head is expose .. but at the same time the hatch was under the overpass ... so the accident occurred ... the minor assume it was clear .. it was not just curiosity .. it was to solve the AC heat issue ..

 

we didn't hear from the drivers POV about the AC n heat.

 

We don't know if the monitor said to the minor like "leave the hatch alone and I will talk to the driver to solve the problem. do you hear me?"

 

People react to heat exhaustion differently and people react to complaints differently

People act rashly and don't listen ... people can be argumentative

 

the monitor was in the middle of an ugly situation

 

We don't know what the driver decided to do about the heat and when it started to get noticeable ..

 

I bet he didn't want to pull over the bus in peak traffic but he should have ... and perhaps the situation it would have not lead to the accident.

 

The ppl are only reacting to the action of the minor but not realize the AC and heat exhaustion was the key player ...

 

I've been on a regular bus\train before ... they pull over at the nearest stop ... unload us ... and call in another bus\train to pick us up ... and then the driver would put the bus\train out of service

 

that would look bad for a luxury charter in peak traffic to wait for bus maintenance to come n fix the AC

 

no announcement made prior to all these symptomatic events

 

On a regular bus .. the driver made announcements ...

 

things could have happen differently and this would be part of the investigation where diff experts will evaluate the accident ... make diff recommendations

 

Here is a similar party bus issue

AC Breakdown on a prom party bus\July 16, 2012

http://abclocal.go.c...side&id=8738200

 

NEW YORK (WABC) -- On the hottest day of the year, Vinny Aloi and 44 friends found themselves in a bus with no air conditioning to take them to the Baldwin High School Prom and after-prom.

 

I bet this company didn't want to risk ruining the kids party and wind up with a refund situation.

 

So I bet the investigation will review the bus to see if it was breaking down.

 

This is not the only incident ... others articles say their bus broke down several times before they got to their destination

 

Example General Terms n Conditions - Terms vary from one bus company to another

- The client assumes full financial liability for any damage to the limousine caused during the duration of the rental by them or any members of their party.

- Drug use is prohibited by law. Any fines will be paid for by the customer.

- The driver has the right to terminate run without refund (if there is blatant indiscretion on the part of the client(s)).

- It is Illegal to stand through the sunroof. Smoking is not permitted in our limousines buses & party buses.

- If at any moment during the service you are not fully satisfied with our service, please contact our dispatch at xxxxx immediately.

- Actual total amount due will be calculated upon completion of the trip.

 

- X Party Bus is not liable in the event of mechanical breakdown befor or while on charter and will only be responsible for making up lost time at a mutually agreed date.

 

- X Party Bus does not accept responsibility for delayed travel time due to unforeseen weather, traffic, road conditions (for example, unsafe road conditions in winter (ie. not salted, accidents, etc.)), or delays beyond our control.

 

- X Party Bus is not responsible for articles left in limousines buses and party buses.

 

- Balances to be paid to the driver on the run date before the beginning of the run unless paid with a previously authorized credit card.

 

- Vehicles cannot be loaded beyond seating capacity.

 

- Deposits are non-refundable.

 

- A 50% holiday surcharge based on the fare, stop and waiting time will be charged to all trips occurring on the following holidays: New Years Eve, New Years Day, Memorial Day, Forth of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, and Christmas.

 

In that other article above their company would only refund 2000 out of 5200 and it took a news channel to get them to refund a total of 3500.

 

This gives an idea about what was up for this party bus trip ... but ... the risk was higher ... rather than the driver taking the right actions during the failing AC, a potential breakdown, an unhealthy hot bus

Edited September 5, 2012 by hh5

[hh5]

It makes you wonder who got paid off to issue a special permit.

The bus size is illegal in NY\NJ

But having DOT certs it makes it legal for interstate travel, confusing

 

New details in deadly party bus accident

 

 

* "It exceeded New Jersey size limitations, so it should not have been on the road in New Jersey,"

* It was three inches higher than the maximum height of 13 feet 6 inches ... violated the maximum 45 foot length by three feet.

[] Overpass is 14FT high

* Those same height and length regulations exist in New York

* NYDOT granted Designer Limo a "special hauling permit"

* "it is very unusual for any government body to waive a safety regulation, especially for an operator that is serving ... very often children,"

 

* More disturbing perhaps was the use of only one safety attendant

* "The bus was understaffed, almost obviously and that's probably the primary reason why the incident occurred is because the guy left where he was supposed to be. Maybe he was needed down below, but that points to the reason why there requires one on each floor,"

* "It's actually three people. There's a driver and two staff. We put two people in back of bus because the driver has no access to it. One on the first floor and one on the second floor," said a Designer Limo Salesman.

 

 

* ... bus safety experts say the bus should have never been on the road.

* "Quite simply, they advertise they have the biggest and you can't do that if you're meeting all the rules,"

 

 

Edited September 6, 2012 by hh5

[stephendelmar]

some stupid kid put his head through a hatch and got it knocked off. How is it anyone's fault but his own? How do you not know that is dangerous and stupid? You can't protect people from stupid.

[hh5]

doing stupid things => heat exhaustion and hypoxia after rigorous activity (for example)

to exacerbate => Add various Stimulants to impair judgement

 

All you need is the the conditions to make it happen and anyone can be affected given the right conditions

Minors, the Elderly, and the Disabled are extremely susceptible which is why proper Supervision is important

 

For the moment Providers and Consumers of the service will have to rethink of how to prevent these conditions

 

Yes, it would happen again when we allow it to happen again or when we don't have sufficient safeguards in place or when we didn't follow procedures or when we didn't use instinct or when we didn't think for others

 

There are many examples in history that are subject to a lot of debates ... which is why we develop safe guards to prevent it ... but those who overlook those safe guards are subject to its many blessings ... even that is subject to debate

 

The nature of accidents is always subject to debate ... preventable and unpreventable

 

LOL, now that this event has caught your attention ... time to go insure your love ones ... insurers love to make money on risks that people think will happen ... they don't want to insure risks that will happen ... no way to make money

Edited September 6, 2012 by hh5

[hh5]

more news ...

The company that operates a party bus in which a 16-year-old was killed didn't have proper permitting in New Jersey.

New Jersey officials say Designer Limousines of Port Washington, N.Y., did not apply for a state permit ...

 

New York officials say the company had permits to operate three 48-foot buses on New York highways, but its over-height permits expired at 11:59 p.m. Friday.

 

[hh5]

There's quite an argument on whether the bus is street legal in NJ

The bus has two dance floors that is operated by one attendant

 

Now officials are investigating whether the bus should have been traveling a New Jersey road in the first place.

“NJDOT does issue overweight oversize vehicle permits,” NJDOT spokesman ... said, according to NorthJersey.com. “We have no record of a permit request from this bus company. Truck and bus companies do need to obtain a permit when a vehicle they wish to operate on New Jersey roadways exceeds 13 feet, 6 inches in height or 80,000 pounds in gross vehicle weight.”

 

And the New Jersey Motor Vehicle Commission says double-decker buses, like the one on which the accident occurred, are not allowed to be registered in the state.

 

According to nj.gotpermits.com, a permit for an oversized vehicle is not valid on New Year's Day, Memorial Day and the Friday before Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day and the Friday before Labor Day, which was the day this deadly accident occurred.

 

One things clear we don't know what the parents thought about what staffing\chaperoning they were going to get their teens.

I wondered if they understood its wise to have at least two ppl to watch over 70 teens.

 

The bus company is starting to defend its position

 

Party bus operator defends staffing after N.Y. teen's death

 

There is no law or regulation requiring certain staffing levels aboard such a bus. But Kyle Kotary, ... Designer Limousines ... said it is "voluntary company policy to have at least one attendant on board. In this case, there was no parental supervision."

 

... a transportation safety attorney, said passenger bus regulations provide only minimum standards and companies are largely self-regulating.

 

"We know there's an issue of supervision when there are 40 to 50 kids on the top floor and more below," he said. "In areas where there's no regulation, you have to have common sense and common sense says 65 teenagers need supervision on a party bus with a second-tier dance floor."

 

The bus... takes up to 70 passengers, has downstairs and upstairs bars, and an upstairs dance floor. The company has said it has a zero-tolerance policy on underage drinking and "routinely conducts bag checks upon boarding."

 

They spoke their thoughts about permitting ... gosh ... we have to wait for the results of NJ investigation and what charges they will file.

It looks like that bus height controller was in the up position. Not that it matters with the accident but it matters with state height regulations.

If it were down then the bus would have been height compliant.

 

NJ will probably lean towards that the bus was not permitted. kotary didn't mention that their NY permit were expiring at midnight like Snow Whites carriage. I bet he expected that the bus be back at their company before it would be caught in violation.

 

The Port Authority police, who are leading the investigation, said last week the bus is three inches over the New Jersey and New York legal maximum height of 13 feet, 6 inches.

 

But Kotary said -- and NYSDOT records indicate -- the double-decker is at legal height. Because the buses travel low to the ground, Kotary said, a hydraulic system can temporarily raise the bus to 13 feet, 9 inches if needed, such as to pass over a speed bump. A placard placed near the vehicle operator's seat warns the driver that its height is then 13-foot-9.

 

"What we're trying to find out . . . is whether at the time of the accident the hydraulic system was engaged," Kotary said, adding the company has not had access to the bus. Either way, he said, the bus had clearance to pass under the 14-foot-10 span.

 

The bus and the two other double-deckers the firm operates were issued special permits enabling the 48-foot carriers to run on the New York State highway system only, NYSDOT ... said. The maximum legal limit without the permit is 45 feet. The permit did not make exceptions for height, he said.

 

... New Jersey department... said the state also requires special permits if a vehicle is overweight or oversize. "We have no record of a permit request of that nature from this bus company,"

 

Kotary said the company was "advised and under the impression" that, because they had a U.S. Department of Transportation carrier number and complied with all New York State permitting and licensing, the long vehicles were allowed in New Jersey.

 

Records show 24 of the firm's vehicles were inspected by the New York DOT in the past six months and three failed. ... inspected twice a year. The New York permits providing the length waiver for the double-deckers were issued in May, Kotary said.

...

 

The Port Authority is conducting an investigation into the accident, speaking with people who were near and around the victim at the time of the crash and assessing other factors such as the bus’s height and equipment ...

 

... investigations take four to six weeks and the Bergen County, N.J., prosecutor will make a decision as to whether any charges should be filed.

...

It's unclear whether the vehicle had an indicator light on the dashboard to signal that hatches were being opened.

 

Edited September 15, 2012 by hh5

[hh5]

Well another teen death. It seems the emergency red latch must have gave way. Now its a matter of an investigation of how it gave way, was it pulled or was it faulty. Gosh I remember long ago city buses having problems with these latches as well as not fixing them. Mainly it because people pull on them and the city doesn't maintain them after awhile. Party buses should be different in terms of the wear and tear abuse. The way its placed near the window its quite possible it can be pulled by accident.

 

 

 

Oregon girl, 11, dies after falling out of party bus window

 

Angie Hernandez had posed for a photo inside the bus when the driver made a turn and she fell out. Some two dozen family and friends, many of them children, aboard were headed to a quinceanera party in downtown Portland.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/girl-11-dies-falling-party-bus-window-article-1.1171876#ixzz28gJhjzph