Andrew Q Gordon

#1 is easy - I know I do that a lot. If you knew how many times I pull up the on line dictionary to be sure I am using the right one - it's embarrassing. When I self edit, I am on the look out for that one but a guess they slip through anyway #2 is not really an inconsistency - at least not in my mind - Of course Peter didn't want to drive separate but he offered it to help out. Basically it was one of those - we can drive seperate if you really want to but I really hope you don't - kind of offers. I forgot to put that explanation in in when I got to the second part. [There is a personal joke behind that which of course doesn't translate.] I can fix it with a line or two when i get a chance to revise. Thanks for catching that. Chapter 5 is going to have to wait a bit, work looks ugly this week. Andy

Chapter 4 is up for those interested. It is a tad long but as I probably won't be able to post chapter 5 til the weekend I thought this was a good stopping place.

OK question, and if this is too soon just tell me keep reading and I won't do the follow up: I love the magic/science duality - I have notes from 25 years on a similar concept that not quite the same. But do you explain WHY this happens? And do you flesh out what can and can't negate one or the other? I have some comments on the topic - twenty odd years old/in the making but rather than make them now when you address them later, I will hold off for the moment. If you want them now, before I have progressed passed chapter three, say so, if not, just say read on Andy

Just started reading - thanks to this thread - so only up to chapter three. Very good job. I love the use of humor spiced throughout - it adds to the story. Hope to finish soon but will comment along the way if I have anything worth saying. Andy

..... Was this story classified as a romance? Just curious, because there is a difference between a romance and a love story. A romance by definition (in the writing world at least) MUST have a happy ending. If something tragic will happen, this may be a love story. I just mention this, because the way I read "event" above. (I'm super curious to read it now. I just noticed you have another chapter up, too, so I'm going to read that very soon). ... Forgot to mention that I didn't realize the technical definition of a romance means it ends happily. So don't read anything into my selection then it contains some romance - it wasn't meant to signify a happy ending. Not saying there won't be but I wasn't say there would be either by choosing that category. Andy

Agreed, I don't plan to cut for the sake of cutting. When the time comes maybe I will post it as written and see what people think and use that as a guide for future places I think could be kept or cut.

Wow, thanks for that much info. Right now I am not at the point of cutting stuff - well maybe if I were going to seek to get published I would cut a bit here or there, but none of the scenes so far really scream - "cut me! cut me!" Maybe the part in the apartment when the parents come but even there, you get to meet the parents learn how his mom is - central to the later stuff, etc. There are parts coming up that might get cut, not sure. I get the 'just the facts ma'am' approach. And I wrote the Jason/Grandfather part as a semi stand alone scene - meaning I didn't refer to it in subsequent chapters until I am sure it is staying. I can always refer back if I keep it. I am leaning toward cutting it but I like the your suggestion of working it in as part of something else. It is only marginally essential - but it does show the grandfather which is sort of important later. Yes I ramble even when I type, imagine that. Thanks so much. I am going to try to read more of these forums, Thinking about concepts keeps them foremost in mind when I write. Of course that didn't stop me from spending part of the day writing about antique cars and auctions

Chapter length I am good with. Since I don't post the entire story at once, I am going with btw 6-7K maybe a bit more if I am not going to post for a bit maybe less if I have two chapters ready. Overall story is at about 195K and probably another 40-50K to go to complete. I am sure I can cut some fluff out, chapters that do not add significantly to the plot but give greater depth to the characters, a couple scene come to mind. The problem for me is that those are in my mind, some of the better more creative scenes. Most of them were parts that came naturally and were so easy to write i couldn't get the thoughts down fast enough. But on balance most of those don't have a meaningful impact on the story - For example - without saying much an outing for Jason with his grandfather to look at antique cars, It is certainly not central but it was some of the more fun writing - I love antique cars and dream about buying something like an 1960's Astin Martin or 1940's Bentley. So while I can probably find a way to cut them, I don't really want too LOL. Feel free to send as many electronic smacks as you like at this point. Andy

Judging by the stories posted on the eFiction section, I fear this story is going to be too long. Any comments on how long something should be to maintain people's interest?

Okay, after a long day of buying food, making food and watching baseball - go Nats - I found time to reading chapter ten - I am woefully behind on all that I want to read. It is hard to say this doesn't work when I don't know where it is going - nor do i want to since that would spoil the suspense. Trey's action make me scratch my head but I think that is the idea. More to the point we all have met people whose behavior doesn't fit neatly into a bottle. I didn't 'get' the party theme, but I am terribly old in gay years so forgive my ignorance. I got that Trey wanted Shane to be his partner in crime if you will and kinda became clearer why after they went through the rooms. If I have any suggestion it would be Shane's lack of use of the two truth rooms. Trey knew what was coming and he took Shane there as an out - i.e. he could say he HAD to be truthful. Shane knows his deal, and frankly only someone how is so dense they need a two by four across the skull to pick up on stuff could miss Trey's interest - the movies, the lying on the bed together - the scene in Shane's house. Once the gay genie is out of the bottle - June telling Shane - he had to go back, revisit what Trey was doing and figure it out. NOW, given the opportunity, he doesn't make use of. Not sure why he would ask about the hockey wedgie if what he really wanted was to know if he had a chance to score with him. Anyway, of course there is a lot I DON"T know so it might be that this be central to something so I probably have no idea what I am talking about. I have no pearls of wisdom to bestow upon you, as you gave me. No wise way to use punctuation. {I would be the antithesis of a comma queen, in that if I were Emperor of the world I would ban the use of commas for all eternity. Maddeningly frustrating little buggers if you ask me. } You have that rare but sought after combination of vision - the story & technique - how well you write. The story is engaging, I want to know what is coming next. And your writing is not hard to read. There is enough there that I have a picture in my mind of where they are - it might not be your picture but you are not foisting that on me - without slogging me down with too many details. I can truly say I have an image of both your main characters, their dorm, etc AND I think I understand their character. What more is there to suggest other than keep it up, I enjoy it.

Okay, that makes sense. Who knew that is what it was called? This new learning amazes me. Which then begs the question, why are you toiling away here and not being published somewhere? [somewhere in that sentence was supposed to be a compliment about your skills.] Right now I have a barbell problem with this story. I have a big bit of the beginning done, and bigger chunk of the end [two separate conflicts that require resolution] but am thin in the middle. My goal is to bridge the two ends before I run out of the first part. On the advise of a friend who read the second part, I went back and wrote a beginning rather than do it in flash back. His suggestion - which I appreciated but didn't fully understand how much work it entailed lo these 6 months later - was to make the reader invested in the characters before the conflict that occurs in the second part. So since then, I have been writing my way toward that event. Getting closer, not there yet but the idea is there. All that is left is to get it onto the page - yes oh so simple right? Thanks again for the comments, you are great.

Anyta That is not nit picky it is something my writing teachers have been trying to drill into me forever! I also screw up the stuff like: He turned to Jason saying, "don't go there." When it should be "Don't go there." So you reinforcing a lesson I am still working on What does "Beats between dialogue" mean? Are you talking about how it flows? Or to paraphrase a beer commercial 'readability?" [i think the beer com. called it drinkability.] Sorry not fishing for a compliment, just never heard that expression before. Andy

I am always looking for feed back, good bad or in between. I am particularly interested in comments on what to work on. There is a LOT more to come, maybe too much but we will see. Story Link: Second Chances For those with an interest, I did play soccer for a LONG time, but was never that good. Steady maybe, but never great. I started to referee when my knees were shot. I played in the Gay Games in New York and helped referee several finals of the Gay Soccer Championships before my career took too much of my time. Gay Soccer I am taking Martial Arts classes - though my discipline [Krav Maga] is nothing like what I am having Peter study. For those interested, Krav Maga is the Israeli defense training. It is at its core a self-defense training that is intense, difficult and leaves me bruised and achy when class is over. I highly recommend it to anyone who is interested. Here is a link for anyone interested. Just go knowing that on day one they are going to have you punching and kicking. Krav Maga Otherwise the rest of the story is pretty much based on thoughts in my head. The characters truly don't remind me of anyone I know. They are not based on anyone I knew, wanted to know or hated. Thanks for reading and feel free to email me if you don't want to tell me I stink in a public forum. PS, not sure if the links work but if you right click you should be able to open them. Update - turns out Second Chances was used by another Author on GA so with apologies to that author and to avoid a breach of etiquette, I changes the the title [after making sure this was not used already] I don't think it will be too confusing [ok yes it will a bit confusing but it is still necessary ]

Anyta, I don't think it would be a problem, isn't life like that? One day sucks the next you do something that makes you forget about yesterday? I am looking forward to reading it either way. Andy

Am new to GA so I hope my comments are not out of line but here goes: This is a great story - it is a fun read and you really did a nice job with 'back filling' things - i.e. David, the rift between Case and Luca, Case's relation with his mom etc - that is all first rate story telling. You also do a very good job of keeping your character's in character. Some things didn't work for me at first - the posing contest in Luca's room but reading more and finding out Luca is/was in love with Case it all makes sense. Case is very full of himself and wouldn't bat an eye at showing off, Luca just wanted to get him naked or semi naked. So that is really impressive. Same with how you develop the Case/Chobey dynamic, at first you scratch your head at what is going on but then you see this is perfectly in keeping with how Case would be given his personality. Your handling of Case after Luca tells Case he is in love with him - was really well done. You start with Case 'feeling' content [my word not yours] with being around Luca etc, especially in the tent, and you develop how he opens up emotionally to someone about David for the first time. So you lay a great foundation for him to receptive to the idea he likes Luca 'like that.' Then you avoid the stereotypical but unrealistic, 'let me prove how str8 I am' cliche which invariably leads to him having to come back begging to be taken back - as for example the Movie Shelter. So this is really great stuff. Ok so not the not so positive comments: Who is speaking? Often when you get into a back and forth with your characters it is hard to tell who is speaking. There should be a lot more identification of the speaker. Also use these interchanges to tell us what they are doing. How often do you have a back and forth with someone and you do nothing but talk? Give us details about their expressions, their movements and the area they are moving about, some of their feelings etc? Dialogue is a perfect venue for adding depth and detail to your story in a way that keeps the readers attention because they are trying to "hear' and "see" the conversation and it helps keep things more natural if you will. Last some things seemed a tad too pat if you will. The shower scene together doesn't ring true - sexy, erotic, gratuitous, yes but if you are going for believability it is a bit far. Even with his 'damn the torpedo's' attitude, it is hard to imagine a str8 guy - and at this point in the book, Casey still believes he is str8 - would hop in the shower with someone he has NO inkling is gay or has the same attitude just to get to the post office. There were too many other options, like the lack, more deodorant, a wash cloth and water in the sink while Lucas showered, a dunk in the river. More so, I think it takes away from what is a REALLY good "reason" to "need" to be up close and personal - the rickety bed breaking. That was a great scene. On balance this is great, you should look for an editor to work with on getting published. You have the talent for entertaining the reader. Andy

Nicely done so far! Normally not a fan of the first person narrative - perhaps because I can't do it? - but this really works. You are a very good story teller, had me clicking to the next chapter. As for sad endings, you are damned if you do damned if you don't. Let everything work out perfect in the end and people think it was too pat or not realistic because life never works out quite that well. Make it sad and some feel less than satisfied with how it ends because they are invested in the character and want to see him happy. Maybe an in between - resolve the conflict - i.e. the hurt Joey left him with at 14 and his inability to find a new love but don't have him end blissfully happy in the arms of his true love. Maybe he is excited about a date with his new like interest or is excited to be beginning to date or something like that. One other comment for whatever it is worth from one who is not so talented as you - not everyone is going to be drop dead gorgeous. True the beautiful always gravitate to each other but still, there have to be less than perfect characters no? Someone a tad to fat, too short, too big a nose or ears, someone who has some obvious insecurity. Liam being shy is a start but shy is not a flaw so much as a barrier. Still very entertaining. Thanks for sharing.