Jerusalem Pride Parade

[MayaMys]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6110500996.html

 

The above article is about the Pride Parade in Jerusalem, Israel. Many religious, and even some secular Jews are against the parade, and with the Orthodox Jews, many went as far as burning trashcans in the streets and rioting. People have already been hurt, and the parade hasn't happened yet. Horrid, isn't it?

 

As to whether the pride will actually take place? Equal chances of it happening, and it not happening. The amount of officers needed to protect the marchers is huge (about half of all officers in Israel), and let's face it..the rest of the country needs the police, too.

 

I'm Israeli, though I live in Canada right now, and as a huge gay rights supporter I think that it'll be best if the march goes on, though I don't want people to get hurt (though I understand that it's probably inevitable that someone will get hurt). So yeah, that's an issue.

 

But there is another one: Isn't Jerusalem a holy city for three religions that so far have condemened homosexuality? (though I have to admit that the main religion I'm considering is Judaism). Wouldn't this be similar, in a way, to having a pride march in Vatican City, or Meccha? Something like that would be incridibly offensive to followers of those religions, and will, in a way, make those holy places unpure and dirty, by glorifying something that goes clearly against those religions. Do we, as the "gay community" have the right to impose like that, despite the fact that Jerusalem also has a large secular population?

 

So yeah, lets talk about both these problems. 1) Should the pride parade take place despite the risks? and 2) Should there be a pride parade in a holy city such as Jerusalem?

[jalaki]

Question number one is pretty straightforward to answer. If there are people willing to accept and take the risks involved in marching, then let them. This, of course, ignores the police issue, or rather assumes there are enough to cover what is needed. But I think most people marching in a pride parade anywhere are going to realize there are whackjobs out there no matter where you are, so *shrug*

 

As for the second one...that city is a holy place for the gay people in those religions, too, isn't it? Screw those that are going to discriminate against their fellow man. They show their hypocrisy every day. How did that one go? Luke 6:41, unless I mistake myself: "Remove the wooden beam from your eye first, then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye." Or to put it another way, "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone."

 

You're basically asking if they should be allowed to do it because it's "a sin" - well I guaran-damn-tee you that every single other person in that city, to a man, is a sinner too.

 

And personally, I would love to see pride parades held in Vatican City and Meccha too. People need to wake the heck up (or perhaps be woke the heck up) and get with the program, not be allowed to wallow in their ignorance and self-righteousness endlessly. The whole "it's a sin" thing is basically all BS anyway. From incorrect translations, purposefully changed translations, or *gasp* original writers writing what they want because hey guess what, it wasn't God holding the pen it's pretty much impossible to actually use the bible, the torah, the koran, or any other religious text as a justification for pretty much anything....except maybe as an example of why things shouldn't automatically be taken as proof for something else And even if there was some kernel of truth buried deep down in there - times change, and so do the natures of things. Things that were great sins ages ago are now considered perfectly clean and acceptable, and guess what? There's nothing inherent to homosexuality that says the perception of it must remain immuteable, despite what fundamentalists, zealouts, and other less-offensive religious followers might try to get you to believe.

 

So basically, to sum all that up: Question #2? Hell yeah they should.

[Xiao_Chun]

1) Should the pride parade take place despite the risks?

 

Yes. Canceling the parade would be the same as surrendering to the terror threat by the fundamentalists. I see this as part of the fight for freedom, and freedom. Unfortunately, we don't have a choice but to fight for freedom and the risk is worth taking.

 

2) Should there be a pride parade in a holy city such as Jerusalem?

 

The parade is not taking place next to the holy places of Jerusalem, but in a secular neighborhood. So the freedom of those who want to practice religion is not tempered in any way. In a modern society the civilian law should take presidency over the religious law. If we give away the civilian laws, then what we are left with is this:

 

If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:13)

 

Michael.

Edited November 6, 2006 by Xiao_Chun

[Xiao_Chun]

Latest news. They agreed to have a closed gay parade, in a stadium

 

I have mixed feelings about this. Due to the recent terror threats, maybe it is not a good idea to have any social gathering right now. The police can protect against the Jewish Orthodox demonstrators, but it is harder to stop a suicide bomber who is determined to end his life and lives of others. So many public events are probably being canceled right now due to terror threats. As long as the gay parade is treated just like other public gatherings that are canceled these days, I guess I can't complain too much about it. But this sucks.

 

Hugs,

Michael.

[DarkShadow]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6110500996.html

 

 

So yeah, lets talk about both these problems. 1) Should the pride parade take place despite the risks? and 2) Should there be a pride parade in a holy city such as Jerusalem?

 

#1

 

Everything comes with risk. Everything that is worth anything is usually fought for. I wish them the best of luck and applaud their bravery. I think a better question would be, 'Is it work the risk?' That's a question each person in that parade has to ask themselves. If, at the end they have answered ,yes, then I think all that is left, is to wish them well.

 

#2

 

So long as they don't damage any property, and it isn't a great hinderance to people's daily lives, I believe they should be able to have the parade any place they please, and be left unmolested.

 

A person's religious belief does not grant them the right to impose upon another individual. Here in the US you can worship any way, and any religion you please so long as you don't break the law. (no killing people, etc etc) You can choose to worship Allah, God, Goddess, Thor, Snoopy, Barbara Streisand, or the curly cue hair growing out your pimply butt if it suits you, so long as you don't infrige on another person's rights. Or, you can choose to worship nothing at all.

 

The are three mains goals to a pride parade in my opinion. One, to remind the public that 'yep' contrary to what you might have been told, we're still here. Two, to give a sense of community to sexually subversed indivuals and the knowledge that they are not alone in the world. Three, to push forward a political agenda and make a public cry against the inequities in current law.

 

I'm sure there are many other reasons for a pride parade of any sort, but these three things seem to ring the strongest in my mind.

 

While I believe it is proper and should be expected, that we respect others beliefs, I don't think it should stop anyone from being who they are. Difference in belief is not a handicap, or some border to keep people safe. It's a choice. It's as much of a choice for those that will march in that parade. It's a choice for others to be present and witness it, or, avert their eyes and make plans to be somewhere else that day.

 

I don't care if the Klu Klux Klan decided they wanted to parade through the middle of Mississippi. Their beliefs are not my own. I can take each day and fight my own personal battles as they are presented to me. I'm not so bored as to have to go find them.

 

So with that in mind, I think the second question is completely erroneous. If it was a parade of Methodists marching in front of a Jewish Temple, I suspect there wouldn't be such a big deal being made of this. That someone considers a place 'Holy' means nothing to me if I do not share that belief. I will respect the object or place, but I will not give the same reverence to it as those that believe differently. Would I go fart in a confessional..? No. Would I participate in a gay pride parade that marched right outside it's doors.

 

You're damn straight I would.

 

I wish them a safe parade and hope for the best.

 

Take care!

[glomph]

2) Should there be a pride parade in a holy city such as Jerusalem?

 

Or a Nazi parade in Skokie, IL?

[jalaki]

Hooray! Godwin's Law strikes again!

 

I shouldn't even answer this, because the supreme fallacy of the comparison makes it completely irrelevant. There's no comparison at all between the typical GLBT organization and the typical Nazi organization. So I'm hoping that was just sarcasm that I missed

 

But I'll touch on it lightly anyway. If a Nazi group wanted to have a Nazy pride parade in Skokie...ok, fine, let them. But they still have to abide by the laws - no violence, no destruction of property, etc. Other than that, if they want to walk down the street and spew their gibberish...ok. Go right ahead. Nazis are just as opposed to gays as they are to Jews or various other groups, but if I were there it wouldn't bother me none.

 

Besides, never said protestation was disallowed. People can stand at the sides of either of the above types of parade and voice their opinions too.

[NickolasJames8]

Hooray! Godwin's Law strikes again!

 

I shouldn't even answer this, because the supreme fallacy of the comparison makes it completely irrelevant. There's no comparison at all between the typical GLBT organization and the typical Nazi organization. So I'm hoping that was just sarcasm that I missed

But I'll touch on it lightly anyway. If a Nazi group wanted to have a Nazy pride parade in Skokie...ok, fine, let them. But they still have to abide by the laws - no violence, no destruction of property, etc. Other than that, if they want to walk down the street and spew their gibberish...ok. Go right ahead. Nazis are just as opposed to gays as they are to Jews or various other groups, but if I were there it wouldn't bother me none.

 

Besides, never said protestation was disallowed. People can stand at the sides of either of the above types of parade and voice their opinions too.

I agree with you. I think it's kinda sad that they decided to have it in a stadium. It's like saying, well, we make you feel uncomfortable, so we won't be so proud. I hope there's a protest parade where everyone can see it.....In the street, where it belongs

[Xiao_Chun]

I agree with you. I think it's kinda sad that they decided to have it in a stadium. It's like saying, well, we make you feel uncomfortable, so we won't be so proud. I hope there's a protest parade where everyone can see it.....In the street, where it belongs

Nick, there were 30 people who tried to make their own parade in the streets. They were arrested Police also detained five religious men caught with clubs, knives and a licensed pistol in their possession at the vicinity of the 30 marchers. That's one of the reasons that I am happy to be in San Francisco now, rather than in Israel.

Hugs,

Michael.

Edited November 11, 2006 by Xiao_Chun

[lustful_orcs]

>>Should the pride parade take place despite the risks?

 

Absolutely. We should not yield, not under any circumstance, to bigotry.

The most millitant of us should be flown in from all over the world to gracefully take the abuse Gandhi-style. We can't be the offenders, but those of us who can should be ready to make a personal sacrifice for the cause.

If we back down when they spit at us, they'll hurl bricks the next time.

Gay Power!

 

 

>>Should there be a pride parade in a holy city such as Jerusalem?

 

In the residential area, yes. On specific religiously significant places, no. We shouldn't trample the rights of the religious in the same way that they trample our rights. We should take the moral high road and not needlessly offend them. But the residential area belongs to the people, and that means gays too.

 

 

It's easy for me to get on the www soapbox, but bigotry is incredibly scary in real life..

[glomph]

There's no comparison at all between the typical GLBT organization and the typical Nazi organization. So I'm hoping that was just sarcasm that I missed

 

No sarcasm, but a reference to an historical event. It was before your time, so maybe I should have given more of a reference. There was a TV movie about it, but I didn't watch it.

 

Many of the same principles are involved, even if we are more likely to think of the religious right as the fascists and the gays as the victims.

[jalaki]

No sarcasm, but a reference to an historical event. It was before your time, so maybe I should have given more of a reference. There was a TV movie about it, but I didn't watch it.

 

Many of the same principles are involved, even if we are more likely to think of the religious right as the fascists and the gays as the victims.

 

Oh, I knew about the event. My comment about sarcasm was for the comparison between the two events, not toward one or the other's actual happening As I tried to intimate in my other reply, I agree it should have been allowed. If you want free speech, you're going to have to realize that it goes both ways. I have the right to say "Go gay!" just as muhc as the next guy does to say "No gay!" It's when it goes past words that it becomes a problem.

 

Anyway, back on the topic...yeah, what lustful_orca said sounds about right to me