I've made a very similar rant to this before. Unfortunately, when the guilty parties read this, instead of considering they might be wrong, they double up and become worse. They sling insults at the writer, or "HEY I JUS LIKE WUT I LIKE" becomes a defense that somehow accounts for their having insulted entire sectors of the gay population. Like what you like, fine, but don't denigrate people who are already struggling enough as it is.

I have a million points I want to make, but I'll stick to one of the more infuriating ones: what they mean by masculine is almost always a surface descriptor. By "masc," they don't want someone who sticks to his guns and isn't afraid to stand out from the crowd, because everyone with 2 IQ points could obviously realize that so-called fems do that everyday; no, they want someone who passes for straight, regardless of whether or not he can change his oil or file his own taxes.

RAAAAGGE.

"Masc" also seems to get mistaken for "muscle" I've noticed. At what point did going to the gym become a mark of virility?

This is one of the most prevalent problems within the gay dating community that hasn't gone away. Quite frankly, I don't think it will.

When I first began to notice this phenomena, it was baffling to me because I could never understand why, homosexuals as a minority, would ever exercise such internalized homophobia in such a way (in addition to a whole slew of other racial, gender norm, etc. discriminations). Initially, I attributed it to a select few kids who thought that effeminate gays were giving lgbt members a "bad name" overall.

But over the past year I realized that's just a small portion of the bigger picture, because similar discrimination happens in every other sub population.

There is a social standard, an "ideal," that everyone is expected to uphold, and any deviations from it will call for critique and discrimination. Straight mannerisms are deemed desirable because that's just what we were taught since forever. Seeking masculinity has just become a norm, and most of the dudes that I know who actively seek this never think twice about it.

So going back to "fear."

I think we were taught to fear effeminate characteristics, and as a result there is a fear for guys to appear feminine. I'm not too sure if it has a lot to do with realizing sexuality. That's a little bit different.

oh yeah. The most "masculine" kids that I know never fucken talk about their masculinity LOL

"Masc" also seems to get mistaken for "muscle" I've noticed. At what point did going to the gym become a mark of virility?

THE DAWN OF TIME

Great blog entry, Meticulously.

You are right on about the anonymity of the internet making it easy for people to be rude.  It's unfortunate members of the gay community use it to diss other members of the gay community.  But, I'm surprised at gays calling each other "queer".  A straight guy can't call a gay that.  It's like blacks using the N word when referring to each other.  Whites can't do that.  Prejudice and political correctness are two extremes of the same problem.

I look forward to your next blog entry.

So going back to "fear."

 

I think we were taught to fear effeminate characteristics, and as a result there is a fear for guys to appear feminine. I'm not too sure if it has a lot to do with realizing sexuality. That's a little bit different.

 I think we're on the same side of the coin on this one. When I said fear, I probably could have gone more in depth but felt I was already drawing out the blog. (I actually cut a good 300 words out lol).

I will stick by my fully-realized comment however because I believe someone completely aware of their sexuality and its place in the world is not going to have a problem with a whole subset of the homosexual population. I think they're less likely to have a blanket hatred of effeminate men and more likely to realize that, for years, fem guys were the poster children used to scare society at large. I remember being 9 or 10 and seeing random anti-gay news articles; there were all the prerequisite shots of drag queens with their big scary 'boas of debauchery' and fem guys with dangerously hypnotizing lisps. It scared the shit out of me because I knew I had something in common with those guys and here I am hearing people talk about how disgusting these people are. There was quite a lot of propaganda back then with very little opposition and propaganda can be extremely effective. 

Thank you very much, Mike, for the kind words. I hope you stick around and enjoy your stay:)

This is not exclusive of homosexual men. Masculinity has been the desirable trait of all men since the beginning (until recently in some places but that's another story), And its not all behavoral. Physical "masculine" qualities would be like tall, strong, broad shoudered etc, and those qualities and heavily weighed in on too when people evaluate one another. The difference is that physical traits are more odten than not pre-determined while behavoral traits are seen as adapted thus less forgiving. Men who lack masculine qualities are viewed as weaker, overall less desirable by women and less influential by other men. Many gay guys seem to value these characteristics in the type of men they are attracted to on an amplified level because of the whole gay thing...and in return the hostility towards the lack of masculinity or femininity in men is also amplified.

I don't think this will change. The best we can do is at least try to be polite about it instead of being outright discriminatory but the prejudice will not fade. We're still animals with certain pre-wired instincts after all.

This is an important discussion that throws light on the dark rotten core of so much gay "culture". The key points have already been clearly set out, so all I can add is that it's shameful that under the rules of this site such an important discussion has to be banished to the blogs as an "inconvenient truth" that would be closed down in order not to frighten the children - or should that be sponsors ...
On a personal note I have to confess my own past behaviour. I'm probably what's called "straight acting" and in the past I've felt uncomfortable, even embarrassed, in the presence of overtly fem guys and effectively "cold shouldered" them - maybe to avoid "guilt by association" but also, if I'm honest, because of denial and self hate before I fully accepted myself as gay.

Oh, and Y_B, it is absolutely not true that "Masculinity has been the desirable trait of all men since the beginning". Many other cultures have accepted and, in some case, revered overtly feminine characteristics in men. It is "Western culture" that has a lot to answer for, having obliterated desirable values in so many other world cultures with its superficially attractive yet empty, materialistic norms and media driven "values" like sexuality, body image and "success" which preoccupy most our lives so we forget - or just don't have room for - what's really important: connecting with people, accepting and welcoming difference, so we can find those we can love as friends or as a partner.

As for Mike's surprise about some gays calling each other queer, well, it's not really surprising. It's because it's a term of abuse that gays reclaiming it neutralises its negativity. Words are powerful - they can be very hateful and hurtful. So it's empowering to seize words from the abusers and by adopting them yourself you take away your enemies' most hurtful words thus disempowering their verbal weapons so they can't hurt you anymore. Same with the hateful term "nigger". Same with only Jews telling Jewish jokes, or only a paraplegic telling paraplegic jokes.
 

Thank you very much, Mike, for the kind words. I hope you stick around and enjoy your stay:)

Well, I've been around a while and am not planning on checking out anytime soon.

Oh, and Y_B, it is absolutely not true that "Masculinity has been the desirable trait of all men since the beginning". Many other cultures have accepted and, in some case, revered overtly feminine characteristics in men. It is "Western culture" that has a lot to answer for, having obliterated desirable values in so many other world cultures with its superficially attractive yet empty, materialistic norms and media driven "values" like sexuality, body image and "success" which preoccupy most our lives so we forget - or just don't have room for - what's really important: connecting with people, accepting and welcoming difference, so we can find those we can love as friends or as a partner.

 

Historically masculinity has always been desirable in countless cultures. Masculinity has always been synonymous with power, virility, influence, etc. It's the basis for gender inequalities which have been prevalent for a long time now -- definitely not only in the Western world.

Umm Zombie...wake up and smell the pheromone......There's a reason Mufasa was James Earl Jones and not Richard Simmons.

Historically masculinity has always been desirable in countless cultures. Masculinity has always been synonymous with power, virility, influence, etc. It's the basis for gender inequalities which have been prevalent for a long time now -- definitely not only in the Western world.

Y_B said "all men" and "since the beginning". This is just not true. This is a construct that is so deeply ingrained in our psyche that it's assumed to be universal. It isn't. Some cultures have accepted and valued non-masculine male behaviours such as traditional Native American culture

"Although in the Western tradition, as described below, effeminacy has often been considered a vice, indicative of other negative character traits and often involving a pejorative insinuation of homosexual tendencies, in other societies, feminine males may be considered a distinct human gender (third gender), and may have a special social function, as is the case of Two-Spirits in some Native American groups."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effeminacy

I also posted a recent thread on this

http://www.gayauthors.org/forums/topic/36987-gender-and-sexuality-how-do-different-cultures-respond/

Well, I've been around a while and am not planning on checking out anytime soon.

 Oh, no, no. I meant I hope you stick around my blog lol:D

i consider myself masculine, manly, whatever. sometimes i don't shave, maybe i wear a flannel and listen to Atreyu, maybe i drink beer i prefer whiskey but that's a secret. i like to exercise, so im naturally attracted to that type of guy, muscles everywhere. i don't have muscles everywhere but if he does all the better. but those situations have never really like led to anything of substance. i don't mind though, going to the gym is kinda like watching porn. eventually you get into a rhythm of when you go, i always go when the hotties go <o_o> and going to the gym is manly. you're lifting heavy weights, training your muscles, making your body tight to be healthy, assume strength. girls go to the gym but thats a different dynamic sprinkled with woman logic (which is not real logic). but for a dude, gym = manly/"hey he works out" "he's probably gay" its all good. gay guys go to the gym to look good for other dudes, straight guys go to the gym to look good for the ladies. 

i find myself attracted though to guys lesser than manly. usually smaller, "feminine" types. they always seem to find me or seem attracted to me. i've had occasions were i've been blatantly told he was with me cause i was so manly and he felt safe lol, he was young poor thing. but, i find myself attracted to somewhat-feminine gay guys. bro-ish homo's are just friends i dunno, its weird. i think its because i hung around with so many of them i can't create a little facet of emotion to cultivate. 

i think the reason is that that type of gay guy is a good for my personality. usually smarter in the emotional department, can check me if im being a douche. usually good fashion taste. good music taste, knows what to do on a sunday. has a shit ton of chick friends, which i have but not in quantity. that also makes me an asset to my stupid straight friends. some feminine gay men are incredibly stupid and annoying and literally have vaginas and honestly give us gays a bad name to the more ignorant straight people on the cusp of attempting to accept. but there are some who have this insane balance and its incredibly attractive and i totally dig it. all the ones i can think of that could of been were like that. such a shame.

i think its good there are contrasting types, isn't it needed for relationship? ive done it all, since high school ive tried to be more open minded, its worked out so far. interesting blog post!

I think I just vomited a little.

I think I'm going to have to side with Zombie on this one. I took a twirl around the internet before writing this blog and there is actually a quite a lot of information to back up the fact that the masculinity that we Westerners crave is a relatively new thing.(by history's terms, anyway). Everyone knows that homosexuality itself has been around forever and that, by many accounts, it used to be more openly accepted than it has been in the last few hundred years. I read once that Alexander the Great was an effeminate man. Greek myths hold stories of beautiful boys like Ganymede and Hyacinth. The stories about the Sacred Band of Thebes are also fascinating to read.

I don't agree that it can't change. I am living proof that even if it takes a while, change can happen; for example, I can now drink out of any water fountain I want:D

I think I just vomited a little.

did it taste like protein?

did it taste like protein?

tasted like creatine