Androgyny

[Y_B]

I did not know androgyny was a lifestyle o_O

 

It's not, and it is.

 

I'm not referring to someone's innate androgynous identity, but for the sake of those pictures, androgynous fashion and androgynous modeling.

 

I don't mean to throw the term around lightly. It may be more accurate to say that when I say androgynous lifestyle, I mean learned femininity in men.

[Amelia]

So, is it just guys who choose to present themselves in an androgynous manner (hairstyle/makeup/clothing) that bothers the people who are choosing to label this "wrong", or does it also bother you when someone who is transgender (not something they have a choose in - just like homosexuality) dresses to match their inner self?

 

Can you tell the difference every time?

 

I am baffled by the negativity. I may not find it to my tastes, just like I don't particularly find mohawks, high and tights (my husband is a marine), skinny jeans (on girls or boys), or platform shoes attractive - it doesn't make me angry that someone has chosen that appearance...

[Y_B]

So, is it just guys who choose to present themselves in an androgynous manner (hairstyle/makeup/clothing) that bothers the people who are choosing to label this "wrong", or does it also bother you when someone who is transgender (not something they have a choose in - just like homosexuality) dresses to match their inner self?

 

Can you tell the difference every time?

 

That is a very good question, and of course the answer is no, there's no way to tell the difference.

 

However, either way doesn't make the end result appealing enough to me that giving my benefit of the doubt would make a difference.

 

Sorry

[Fishwings]

Without getting philosophical, I think you know what I'm talking about with what you put in bold.

 

My model for gender roles is, as I've laid out, my model. It's not superior or inferior to yours but my own. If I thought like you, I'd be you. We have different ideals and different tastes, we're not arguing a matter of fact.

 

Also, the difference between intolerance for homosexuality and my dislike for androgynous lifestyles is that one of these is out of our control, while the other isn't. The negativity towards gays stem from the misinformed idea that people who are gay choose to be gay. Those guys in this post had every choice in the world in how they wanna represent themselves visibly.

 

 

 

 

These "androgynous lifestyles" are negative because you choose to believe they are negative, just as how homophobic people choose to believe homosexuality is negative. It is not the fault of effeminacy in men which lead to all this hatred and segregation that has been present for so long in various communities across the world, but the fault of the people who are repulsed by their lifestyle and refuse to tolerate their freedom of expression. Thus, blaming members of the LGBT community for inciting hate in other members of society due to how they want themselves to look or how they act is unfair. How can they "force" anyone to hate them, if hatred is in the mind of the opposition? If you say that they are "asking for it" and that they should censor their lifestyle, then we might as well tell all gay men to censor their affection (and we would be rewinding the decades back...).

 

After all, what is "choice"? A homosexual man can choose not to act on his compelling desires. He would then not be representing himself as a member whom incites homophobia, no?

 

Anyways.

 

I'm not really attracted to androgynous men or women either. I too like my men manly and my women really girly -- but I would never blame androgynous men or women because they stand out from traditionally accepted societal norms and as a result "misrepresent" everyone else who is gay/bisexual/etc. I think being someone who has a different sexual orientation than most around me and shunted because of it has made me more open minded and accepting of everyone in all shapes and sizes. The simple idea of internalized prejudice within a minority which has been discriminated against for so long just astounds me.

[DragonMando]

With all the seriousness starting to happen in this thread, I'm almost tempted to put on a dress and start parading pictures myself...

 

...but I won't, because I prefer everyone's brains to not be dribbling out their ears from the horror. Of course, if I did side-by-sides of myself as me and myself all femmed up, the brains would be flat out going supernova XD Because I'm naturally androgynous enough to pass decently as either with very little effort.

Edited January 8, 2011 by DragonMando

[Y_B]

These "androgynous lifestyles" are negative because you choose to believe they are negative, just as how homophobic people choose to believe homosexuality is negative. It is not the fault of effeminacy in men which lead to all this hatred and segregation that has been present for so long in various communities across the world, but the fault of the people who are repulsed by their lifestyle and refuse to tolerate their freedom of expression. Thus, blaming members of the LGBT community for inciting hate in other members of society due to how they want themselves to look or how they act is unfair. How can they "force" anyone to hate them, if hatred is in the mind of the opposition? If you say that they are "asking for it" and that they should censor their lifestyle, then we might as well tell all gay men to censor their affection (and we would be rewinding the decades back...).

 

After all, what is "choice"? A homosexual man can choose not to act on his compelling desires. He would then not be representing himself as a member whom incites homophobia, no?

 

You make good points. But as far as your first sentence goes, who is to say that I or they are wrong? Of course, we being in the group that negativity centers in, it is easy to take a stand for ourselves and say "no, we aren't wrong, you are" but in the grand scheme of all things, is there really right and wrong? Since nobody can be let to decide, it seems we best try to "tolerate" as much diversity as possible to minimize offense, and that is the direction in which the world is moving towards but to tolerate does not come with the prerequisite of to enjoy, that's only a facade that people who find satisfaction in political correctness enjoy.

 

Sure, I admit that it is not unfair to impose a double standard but my prejudice works in a way that doesn't follow a linear logic and I know that. The juxtaposition of androgynous people dressing in an androgynous manner and gay men choosing to act of their affections are not entirely on the same level for the reason that affections are not for 3rd parties to witness while fashion is partly for that purpose. When you put on some clothes, do not some small part of your conscious or subconscious wonder if this looks good from an outside perspective? This can lead to another discussion on what fashion really is but that's not the focus here.

[Marzipan]

I love that playing the androgyny field challenges traditional concepts of maskulinity. It doesn't say anything about the beuatiful male models' or artists' sexual orientation if they are or are being represented androgyny or styled feminine. It's a challenge for those who need to protect their own genderidentity, not for gay men.

 

And hey, it's old news that masculinity is in a chrisis.

[Fishwings]

You make good points. But as far as your first sentence goes, who is to say that I or they are wrong? Of course, we being in the group that negativity centers in, it is easy to take a stand for ourselves and say "no, we aren't wrong, you are" but in the grand scheme of all things, is there really right and wrong? Since nobody can be let to decide, it seems we best try to "tolerate" as much diversity as possible to minimize offense, and that is the direction in which the world is moving towards but to tolerate does not come with the prerequisite of to enjoy, that's only a facade that people who find satisfaction in political correctness enjoy.

 

Sure, I admit that it is not unfair to impose a double standard but my prejudice works in a way that doesn't follow a linear logic and I know that. The juxtaposition of androgynous people dressing in an androgynous manner and gay men choosing to act of their affections are not entirely on the same level for the reason that affections are not for 3rd parties to witness while fashion is partly for that purpose. When you put on some clothes, do not some small part of your conscious or subconscious wonder if this looks good from an outside perspective? This can lead to another discussion on what fashion really is but that's not the focus here.

 

 

 

 

You say that "androgyny is for show" and "homosexual affections" are not, but you're once against saying that they choose to be effeminate. The way I see it, both homosexuality and androgyny comes down to freedom of expression. They do the things they do because that is how they feel inside -- it doesn't matter who the audience is. Why would a homosexual man choose to participate in something (androgyny) that earns them so much hate from both members of their "own community" and members of the heterosexual norm? It's the same as asking the question: why would a man choose to be homosexual, if it is rejected by society?

 

As for the purpose of androgyny -- I don't think it matters. What matters is whether or not they're doing it because they want to attract hate and are thus purposely/ignorantly affecting other gay men -- and again, why would they?

[Y_B]

You say that "androgyny is for show" and "homosexual affections" are not, but you're once against saying that they choose to be effeminate. The way I see it, both homosexuality and androgyny comes down to freedom of expression. They do the things they do because that is how they feel inside -- it doesn't matter who the audience is. Why would a homosexual man choose to participate in something (androgyny) that earns them so much hate from both members of their "own community" and members of the heterosexual norm? It's the same as asking the question: why would a man choose to be homosexual, if it is rejected by society?

 

As for the purpose of androgyny -- I don't think it matters. What matters is whether or not they're doing it because they want to attract hate and are thus purposely/ignorantly affecting other gay men -- and again, why would they?

 

 

I don't think anyone would choose to be disliked in general on purpose, but then again, many people just don't care. They do what they do because they feel that way inside like you said and want to act on it regardless of how well received it is. All that, of course, operates under the assumption that every single androgynous fashion model we can refer to identify innately as androgynous. The people you left out are the ones who don't but do what they do anyways. It's not far fetched to believe that there are sets of both people. It doesn't take a strictly androgynous man to dress feminine anymore than it takes strictly a gay man to f**k around with a guy, which all boils down to what Amelia pointed out and that it's difficult to discern who is what. If a straight guy (and for the sake of this post, let's say he's actually straight) insists on engaging in sexual activities with men just outta interest and freedom of expression, wouldn't that seem a bit....odd? Similarly if a man identifies masculinely but dresses androgynously just out of interest, doesn't that also seem odd?

 

In one of my previous posts, I said that either way the end results just don't appeal to me. Whether someone chose to live in an androgynous manner or are innately androgynous in identity, both roads ultimately led to the same place, and I'm sorry to say I just don't like that place. I understand the correlation you are making in how androgynous people can't choose how they feel anymore than a gay person can, but that doesn't salvage them from being disliked by me. But going back to what I said early, I do wanna make a little adjustment on what you've focused in on and it is that I've held a double standard when I tried to blame androgynous men on fanning the flame of negativity because I believed they choose to be that way. I wanna make clear that this applies strictly to those who do NOT identify androgynously but dress in that manner anyways. Those are the guys who fan the flames and those are the ones I mainly had the distaste for.

[Fishwings]

I don't think anyone would choose to be disliked in general on purpose, but then again, many people just don't care. They do what they do because they feel that way inside like you said and want to act on it regardless of how well received it is. All that, of course, operates under the assumption that every single androgynous fashion model we can refer to identify innately as androgynous. The people you left out are the ones who don't but do what they do anyways. It's not far fetched to believe that there are sets of both people. It doesn't take a strictly androgynous man to dress feminine anymore than it takes strictly a gay man to f**k around with a guy, which all boils down to what Amelia pointed out and that it's difficult to discern who is what. If a straight guy (and for the sake of this post, let's say he's actually straight) insists on engaging in sexual activities with men just outta interest and freedom of expression, wouldn't that seem a bit....odd? Similarly if a man identifies masculinely but dresses androgynously just out of interest, doesn't that also seem odd?

 

In one of my previous posts, I said that either way the end results just don't appeal to me. Whether someone chose to live in an androgynous manner or are innately androgynous in identity, both roads ultimately led to the same place, and I'm sorry to say I just don't like that place. I understand the correlation you are making in how androgynous people can't choose how they feel anymore than a gay person can, but that doesn't salvage them from being disliked by me. But going back to what I said early, I do wanna make a little adjustment on what you've focused in on and it is that I've held a double standard when I tried to blame androgynous men on fanning the flame of negativity because I believed they choose to be that way. I wanna make clear that this applies strictly to those who do NOT identify androgynously but dress in that manner anyways. Those are the guys who fan the flames and those are the ones I mainly had the distaste for.

 

 

 

You're right, it isn't particularly thoughtful to assume that all androgynous people are innately that way. Aaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnddddd I have nothing else to say on the matter since I do not know the statistics of who is and who isn't. Jizz everywhere.

 

asdkjasdkjh Sometimes, I like guys with eyeliner.

[Stargazer]

With all the seriousness starting to happen in this thread, I'm almost tempted to put on a dress and start parading pictures myself...

 

...but I won't, because I prefer everyone's brains to not be dribbling out their ears from the horror. Of course, if I did side-by-sides of myself as me and myself all femmed up, the brains would be flat out going supernova XD Because I'm naturally androgynous enough to pass decently as either with very little effort.

 

It would be interesting to see!

[Tipdin]

So, is it just guys who choose to present themselves in an androgynous manner (hairstyle/makeup/clothing) that bothers the people who are choosing to label this "wrong", or does it also bother you when someone who is transgender (not something they have a choose in - just like homosexuality) dresses to match their inner self?

 

Can you tell the difference every time?

 

I am baffled by the negativity. I may not find it to my tastes, just like I don't particularly find mohawks, high and tights (my husband is a marine), skinny jeans (on girls or boys), or platform shoes attractive - it doesn't make me angry that someone has chosen that appearance...

 

I do not define the look as wrong at all, just not very attractive; whether male or female. I prefer to be able to tell one from the other.

 

For decades women have been transforming themselves into men for some reason, and I miss the obviousness of the difference. Ellen DeGeneres has been wearing men's shirts, vests, and pants on her TV show for years, can you imagine what would happen if David Letterman wore ANY article of female clothing?

 

Why is it ok for women to cross dress in public but not men? I see Ellen the same way I would see David if he were to wear women's clothing, it's out of place; a sour note in an orchestral lullaby. What's wrong with a women looking like a women? It's sad that so many women have such a very poor self-image. I'm not saying that women should freak out about a spider or wear frilly dresses, but really, what's wrong with women being different than men?

 

Natural, physical androgyny is no big deal, I just don't understand why someone would deliberately go out of their way to blur the distinction between sexes. Are they ashamed of themselves?

Edited January 8, 2011 by Tipdin

[Amelia]

I do not define the look as wrong at all, just not very attractive; whether male or female. I prefer to be able to tell one from the other.

 

For decades women have been transforming themselves into men for some reason, and I miss the obviousness of the difference. Ellen DeGeneres has been wearing men's shirts, vests, and pants on her TV show for years, can you imagine what would happen if David Letterman wore ANY article of female clothing?

 

Why is it ok for women to cross dress in public but not men? I see Ellen the same way I would see David if he were to wear women's clothing, it's out of place; a sour note in an orchestral lullaby. What's wrong with a women looking like a women? It's sad that so many women have such a very poor self-image. I'm not saying that women should freak out about a spider or wear frilly dresses, but really, what's wrong with women being different than men?

 

Natural, physical androgyny is no big deal, I just don't understand why someone would deliberately go out of their way to blur the distinction between sexes. Are they ashamed of themselves?

 

I don't know Ellen, but I wouldn't think she has too much to be ashamed of. I believe she simply enjoys dressing as she does, and I don't think it makes her any less of a woman. If David Lettermen wants to dress as a woman, I am all for it, but I don't think he wants to. On the other hand, Eddie Izzard has made quite the name for himself, is definitely successful (loved, loved, loved "The Riches), and definitely enjoys cross dressing.

 

I fully embrace my femininity, but I don't wear skirts and dresses. I am not ashamed of myself. I even think women dressing as men can be quite sexy - as do many heterosexual males ( women in men's clothes is prevalent in advertising aimed towards macho men). I don't think a man dressing as a woman is particulary sexy, but I don't think its wrong or that they are ashamed of themselves. I wouldn't hesitate to use the word brave, or confident.

[Tipdin]

I fully embrace my femininity, but I don't wear skirts and dresses. I am not ashamed of myself. I even think women dressing as men can be quite sexy - as do many heterosexual males ( women in men's clothes is prevalent in advertising aimed towards macho men). I don't think a man dressing as a woman is particulary sexy, but I don't think its wrong or that they are ashamed of themselves. I wouldn't hesitate to use the word brave, or confident.

 

You're getting to my point. You don't think a man dressing as a woman is particularly sexy. However, women in men's clothes can be sexy, even useful in relating ads to macho men. Why is that? Really. Why do most people find a woman in men's clothes to be attractive but not the other way around?

 

A women in a man's shirt is - 'covered' or 'possessed' or 'fully under his control' ...? Is the clothing a metaphor for his own prowess? Or does she look like him and therefore he's attracted to his own reflection?

 

There have been fads over time where men were supposed to be more sensitive, and many men allowed themselves to be just that. I was happy about it, I thought too many men were too caught up in the masculine game. But as it turned out, more women became more masculine than men who became more sensitive.

 

Both of my sisters are as tough as any linebacker you could choose; nearly equal in physical size and ability too! They break out in a rash when they see ruffles, and wouldn't have a clue what to do with a purse if they owned one. They both claim that men's shirts and jeans are more comfortable but can't explain why. I suspect they are naturally just not very girly girls. Ok, I get it. Some men are not real masculine - my partner is rather effeminate. Ok, I get it.

 

While me partner is not very masculine, he doesn't wear female clothing, and doesn't want to be thought of as girlish. My sisters are both straight, with children, and I don't think either of them have ever had fingernail polish on - ever! But they don't want to be thought of as girlish either. They see femininity as weakness, as being less than...

 

The point is, we are all on the sliding scale of testosterone, some men and women have a lot, and some men and women have very little. Where we fall on that scale at any given time affects our choices. I just wonder why more and more women are becoming emasculated. Is androgyny becoming more common? Is there something causing it? Is it more often a female than a male who is blurring the line?

[Marzipan]

You're getting to my point. You don't think a man dressing as a woman is particularly sexy. However, women in men's clothes can be sexy, even useful in relating ads to macho men. Why is that? Really. Why do most people find a woman in men's clothes to be attractive but not the other way around?

 

A women in a man's shirt is - 'covered' or 'possessed' or 'fully under his control' ...? Is the clothing a metaphor for his own prowess? Or does she look like him and therefore he's attracted to his own reflection?

 

There have been fads over time where men were supposed to be more sensitive, and many men allowed themselves to be just that. I was happy about it, I thought too many men were too caught up in the masculine game. But as it turned out, more women became more masculine than men who became more sensitive.

 

Both of my sisters are as tough as any linebacker you could choose; nearly equal in physical size and ability too! They break out in a rash when they see ruffles, and wouldn't have a clue what to do with a purse if they owned one. They both claim that men's shirts and jeans are more comfortable but can't explain why. I suspect they are naturally just not very girly girls. Ok, I get it. Some men are not real masculine - my partner is rather effeminate. Ok, I get it.

 

While me partner is not very masculine, he doesn't wear female clothing, and doesn't want to be thought of as girlish. My sisters are both straight, with children, and I don't think either of them have ever had fingernail polish on - ever! But they don't want to be thought of as girlish either. They see femininity as weakness, as being less than...

 

The point is, we are all on the sliding scale of testosterone, some men and women have a lot, and some men and women have very little. Where we fall on that scale at any given time affects our choices. I just wonder why more and more women are becoming emasculated. Is androgyny becoming more common? Is there something causing it? Is it more often a female than a male who is blurring the line?

 

 

Gender identity and sexual identity and their represations are totally different matters and can be put together in all kinds of combinations. For me diversity is a richness of humanity, not something that should be judged.

 

Tipdin, you didn't judge it and the wonder that you had about this issue is very valid. I don't think any of us can put ourselves in other peoples shoes (or heels) to fully understand what goes in their minds and reasons behind their actions and choises. And lol, your sisters soun cool!

 

I really enjoy looking happy people wearing what ever they want and just simply being who they are. Many people explore different sides of their gender and maybe even try to expand the hetero normativity by choosing to go almost drag. I wear mens shirt, and trousers and even a tie sometimes quite happily and see nothing wrong with it. Dressing up in a skirt and heals etc. the whole femine package makes me feel fake and almost being in drag.

 

I can find a man in dress totally sexy, not freaky at all. But every brain works differently, my brain is totally twisted and I don't mind at all

[Y_B]

You're getting to my point. You don't think a man dressing as a woman is particularly sexy. However, women in men's clothes can be sexy, even useful in relating ads to macho men. Why is that? Really. Why do most people find a woman in men's clothes to be attractive but not the other way around?

 

A women in a man's shirt is - 'covered' or 'possessed' or 'fully under his control' ...? Is the clothing a metaphor for his own prowess? Or does she look like him and therefore he's attracted to his own reflection?

 

There have been fads over time where men were supposed to be more sensitive, and many men allowed themselves to be just that. I was happy about it, I thought too many men were too caught up in the masculine game. But as it turned out, more women became more masculine than men who became more sensitive.

 

Both of my sisters are as tough as any linebacker you could choose; nearly equal in physical size and ability too! They break out in a rash when they see ruffles, and wouldn't have a clue what to do with a purse if they owned one. They both claim that men's shirts and jeans are more comfortable but can't explain why. I suspect they are naturally just not very girly girls. Ok, I get it. Some men are not real masculine - my partner is rather effeminate. Ok, I get it.

 

While me partner is not very masculine, he doesn't wear female clothing, and doesn't want to be thought of as girlish. My sisters are both straight, with children, and I don't think either of them have ever had fingernail polish on - ever! But they don't want to be thought of as girlish either. They see femininity as weakness, as being less than...

 

The point is, we are all on the sliding scale of testosterone, some men and women have a lot, and some men and women have very little. Where we fall on that scale at any given time affects our choices. I just wonder why more and more women are becoming emasculated. Is androgyny becoming more common? Is there something causing it? Is it more often a female than a male who is blurring the line?

 

 

Thanks, you said that much better than I woulda.

Very Freudian

[Tiger]

One thing I've seen in this thread I find troubling. People are who they are. How someone appears is affected by a multitude of factors. There are effeminate gay men and even effeminate straight men as well as effeminate and masculine lesbians and straight women. Why are some people being so judgmental? It's almost like an irrational fear of people who are different. That's sad indeed considering that most people on this site are LGBT people.

[Nephylim]

I just have a real thing for men who look like women. I don't have any interest in women who look like men. Maybe I'm gayer than I thought.

[DragonMando]

Women who wear men's clothing are logical women. Men's clothing is generally cheaper, made of a higher quality material so it lasts longer, has far less slutty comments on the graphic tees, and are more comfortable. Even if they don't do it for those reasons intentionally, it's still a smart move.

 

Natural, physical androgyny is no big deal, I just don't understand why someone would deliberately go out of their way to blur the distinction between sexes. Are they ashamed of themselves?

In my case...quite the contrary. I bend the lines because I can, because it's fun, and because I'm self-confident enough in my own appearance to know I can do it. Besides, it's fun to make the girls jealous when I can walking higher heels than they can and not die.

Edited January 8, 2011 by DragonMando

[Tipdin]

One thing I've seen in this thread I find troubling. People are who they are. How someone appears is affected by a multitude of factors. There are effeminate gay men and even effeminate straight men as well as effeminate and masculine lesbians and straight women. Why are some people being so judgmental? It's almost like an irrational fear of people who are different. That's sad indeed considering that most people on this site are LGBT people.

 

Please Tiger, don't misunderstand. Well, don't misunderstand me, at least. I am not saying I don't like men and women that do not behave in the stereotypical way. My pondering has little or nothing to do with behavior. I believe that regardless of everything, the way one should behave does not change. In fact, the motto on my coat of arms reads: Treat self, others and the Earth with the kind of gentle care that ensures good health, and nothing else matters.

 

I'm more curious about why something is attractive. What variables have to fall in line for us to be compelled by something?

 

I have seen my mom, sisters, and nieces wearing manly outfits and looking like a million bucks. I have female friends that dress in mens clothes often and they're just plain smoken' hot. My queries are more about what makes that look ok, while men in female clothes are very rare on the street, (and I suspect would cause a great deal of commotion). Is androgyny ok when females are masculine but not ok when men are more effeminate? And why? As a culture do we see femininity as inferior? Thus a man that looks and acts androgynously is also seen as inferior?

 

I think it's clear, (to me anyway) that sexuality and attractiveness is highly subjective. It's all on a sliding scale and changeable. I do not fault anyone for the way they look or behave. I'm interested in understanding why a given look or behavior is attractive and under what circumstances.

 

My own look as a young man blurred the lines. Most of my life my hair was so long that I had to be careful not to sit on it. I had a pierced ear long before it was fashioned. I also had a short-lived modeling career because I was quite thin and androgynous looking. (In my mid-twenties some genetic switch was flipped and I became a hairy little monster.) I was an athlete and a dancer with a lean, almost feminine sleekness but then I also had a jet black beard and a monobrow so my "look" was gone. My five o'clock shadow showed up at noon. My androgynous look was WAY gone - as an adult, I was the guy with hobbit feet and hairy knuckles, with more back-hair than most men had on their chest. Talk about out of fashion! I've gone all the way to the other end of the scale!

[TetRefine]

One of the main reasons I find these guys completely physically and emotionally unattractive is their effeminacy. I find nothing appealing about a guy who doesn't act like a guy. And yes, for all you culturally sensitive, politically correct people, I consider people who act like a traditional man a real man. Effeminacy was never considered a favorable trait among men. If they wanna act like women and do all this stuff, then fine, they have every right to do so. But we as gay people should not expect to be welcomed with open arms into mainstream society if we embrace and publicize this kind of stuff.

 

*sits back and waits for WWIII to start*

[Amelia]

You would think that adversity would help people mature and open their minds. Its reminds my why humanity is failing when I see that it does not. This is not directed at any one person, just the idea that people can judge so freely, even when they themselves are judged so harshly. So, that poses the question to you folks. Why are we so stubborn? Why don't we learn from our mistakes, as we try to teach our children too? Why does history continually repeat itself?

[Marzipan]

You would think that adversity would help people mature and open their minds. Its reminds my why humanity is failing when I see that it does not. This is not directed at any one person, just the idea that people can judge so freely, even when they themselves are judged so harshly. So, that poses the question to you folks. Why are we so stubborn? Why don't we learn from our mistakes, as we try to teach our children too? Why does history continually repeat itself?

 

 

When I asked about if ANDROGYNY is attractive, it was really about personal preference. But this led to much wider discussion about cultural and social limits of accepting differency.

 

That's totally fine. I'm glad that this discussion has deepened from it's original, light hearted purpose.

 

Coming back to the attractivity issue. To me the single most appealing thing in a person is his/her open mindedness. And kindness to other peoples feelings. And sensitivity. Those things have nothing to do with gender, sexuality or even masculinity or femininity.

 

( Amelia, I find you really attractive )

[Tipdin]

Well TetRefine, I will step into the line of fire as well.

 

In regard to behavior: Generally speaking, I think men who are masculine are more attractive than men who are effeminate. Further, I think women who are feminine are more attractive than women who are masculine.

 

 

What trumps the masculine-feminine issue is attitude. If someone behaves in an honorable fashion, it doesn't matter whether they are masculine or feminine.

 

In regard to looks: I have fairly clear lines for that as well. Men who look manly are attractive to me and women who look womanly are attractive. Someone who blurs the line may be beautiful to behold, but I would have no attraction to them physically. (They may end up my best friend, but sex would never enter into the situation.)

 

Simply put, effeminate men, masculine women, and androgynous looks are all turn offs when it comes to considering someone as a sexual or life partner. However, all that has very little to do with my friendships.

[Amelia]

Well TetRefine, I will step into the line of fire as well.

 

In regard to behavior: Generally speaking, I think men who are masculine are more attractive than men who are effeminate. Further, I think women who are feminine are more attractive than women who are masculine.

 

 

What trumps the masculine-feminine issue is attitude. If someone behaves in an honorable fashion, it doesn't matter whether they are masculine or feminine.

 

In regard to looks: I have fairly clear lines for that as well. Men who look manly are attractive to me and women who look womanly are attractive. Someone who blurs the line may be beautiful to behold, but I would have no attraction to them physically. (They may end up my best friend, but sex would never enter into the situation.)

 

Simply put, effeminate men, masculine women, and androgynous looks are all turn offs when it comes to considering someone as a sexual or life partner. However, all that has very little to do with my friendships.

 

I am not sure why you thought this would put you in the line of fire. It seems to me that you are saying that while you are attracted to specific types, what someone looks like or how "feminine" or "masculine" they are, despite gender, has no bearing on your friendship with them - its seems you can respect them either way.

 

That is not the impression being given by others - and that what can be seen as under "attack" in this thread.