Sammy Blue

Thank you! Mostly he was too busy to think about that, I think, at least during the shower. He already fancies Ethan, though, so while he might find Cody good-looking, he would always remain a second choice, at least for now. With Cody being openly gay, the dynamic changes, though.

Yes, definitely. It is one of two main options I can think of.

Cody might complicate things, now that Josh seems to make friends with him. :3

Thank you!

Aw, c'mon Mark... no comment about 69? Not even 69 sex? I thought better of you... Anyway, I liked that they did something that normal people would do. They should do that more often. They are rich and all, but I really like it when they do something 'normal'.

Josh This was definitely not the right moment to think about whether I was getting any kinds of signals from Ethan. I forced my legs to move and caught up with him. By then, the changing room was pretty much empty. Almost everyone was in the showers or already heading back out. Other than us, there was only one other guy left on this side of the room. When Ethan and I passed him, he joined us on our way to the shower room. It almost seemed like he had been waiting for us. I took a quick look a

Thanks for your review! Ian seems like he has noticed something, but the question really is: What exactly has Ian noticed? I really enjoyed writing this chapter, and also the start of the next one, particularly because of the way Ethan and Josh deal with this situation and how they act towards one another. Everyone assumes Ethan is gay and that kind of makes sense if you assume that Josh will end up with someone. There aren't all that many options. We still don't know for sure, though, like you said. This chapter gave some more hints, but we will see how it ends.

I always liked this misquotation: "If a man lies with another man, he should be stoned." Will is certainly sticking to it...

Thanks! I guess most teens don't like it all that much when their parents hug them (especially not in front of others ) but in Josh's case a simple hug can mean a lot to him. There are families that are more distanced and some that are more close, and well then there are the extremely distanced ones... I actually never thought about it beforehand, it just came up while I was writing the scene... :3

LOL don't give Mark ideas, or we will after the next chapter.

We will know soon. The mere fear of being caught looking or something like that happening can ruin the mood you need to get it up very quickly, though. Then again, Ethan does look pretty hot.

Well, usually you're doing well. And if you lack it, one more reason for me to help you train it!

It is securely locked away from curious eyes. Until I manage to finish and edit it. I know I'm mean.

We all have our own ideas of how to define what a family is, but if we do this we should be more clear about it. I think this topic developed from "about the CAP family" to "our own ideas". That is interesting to discuss, of course, but we should be clear on what is what. Are we talking about how the CAP family deals with it? Or what are general values in our respective societies? Or is it about our own opinion? I was referring to the way the CAP family thinks. If we discuss what status Wade and Matt have in the family, and what relationships Will has with them, then we have to apply the way the CAP family, particularly JP, sees things, and how the persons who are included in a conflict (Wade, Matt, Will, etc:) see things. Anything else is nice to talk about but won't help us much for the issue. It IS a fact that a member of the CAP family has been disowned before, so that means that it IS a real, possible option of what JP could do in another case, too. (though when we talk of Matt that is besides the point, ofc. I'm just explaining what I meant there.). However, we can still discuss those values and compare them with our own. I think I see where you are coming from, I don't really agree with the way the CAP family sees it, either (I like reading it, though). There is probably no other demographic group that knows this topic as well as we do. "No son if mine is gay." In fact, there is a lot of people who believe they can choose their family and that might make this an even more sensitive issue. I think we all can agree that you cannot choose your biological family (well, honor killings aside). We probably all agree on the fact that you can fully include members into your family that are not biologically related. If anyone has doubts, then they are probably not a good choice when it comes to adoption. As you said, the issue is with excluding family members. The question is: What does it mean to exclude a member of your family? Let's take Brian (that was his name, right?) as an example. He was pretty malicious. He can forfeit his place in the family, physically. Everyone might stop having contact to him. It is understandable, too. There is a certain point where I think everyone would cut the ties. However, does that really mean that he is not a family member anymore? I personally do not think so. As long as he lives, he is a part of the family. Even if he is persona non grata, he is still part of the family, and his existence will still have an impact on other family members. His actions will be linked to the family, if they are known. A person will still be thought of as father, brother, mother, etc. Technically he is still a member of the family. Many stories on here and elsewhere deal with teens that are kicked out of their homes because they are gay. It is often a topic that they 'choose' their new family, say that their family is dead to them. Is that really true, though? I don't think so. In a way, you are stuck with your family. The memories remain and sometimes they might haunt you. That is what I think family might mean, emotionally. But that does not mean that you might not cut all ties to a family member. Is it right? Perhaps, if the circumstances are accordingly. So in that case a person would be part of the family, but in a way they would be not. I doubt that this is that simple that you can say "it is this way, and no other". Maybe it would make sense to see things in several levels, just like you could do a family tree for the cap family, showing who is biologically related, and then one to show who considers whom to be what, who is in what relationships, etc. They would differ a lot. And so would different definitions of family differ about what the CAP family looks like (or any family for that matter). I wonder though: Do you mean it is wrong to exclude a member of the family? Or do you mean it is not possible to do so, emotionally, or whatever the right word is... well, what I elaborated above. In that case we might even agree, in the end. Ps: Those are just some thoughts. It's what I have thought through for maybe an hour, but not my life philosophy. So if you can change my mind or explain how you see things, I'd be glad to hear anyone's opinion. ^^ Oh and I don't judge, either. :3

As well as you can choose to exclude those who are biologically related, as happened with Brian. I am not sure if we're talking about the same definition of family here. I didn't understand B1ue's post either.

Well, are you saying that Will should prefer Matt because they are related? And you cannot pick your family, but your family can make it clear that they have no interested in being your family. Actually, a while back we were discussing about the Danfields become a core-part of the CAP family... Matt is related to Robbie and Frank. Technically, he is Will's stepbrother. Wade has a son with Tiffany. Tiffany is the ex-partner of Jeanine, which should in a way make her the same to Will as Robbie was. The age difference makes thinking like this problematic, though, as well as the fact that Tiffany never had a 'mother' role. So Wade is the father of... Will's kind of stepbrother Riley? In a way? (though Will would probably consider Riley more of a nephew...) I might confuse myself here. The point is though, Wade is a part of the family, or is he not? Will is related to neither of them by blood and when it comes to marriages and arrangements there is not much difference either. The only difference you could see is that Will considered Robbie as his father and that should make Matt his brother. Matt however never really considered Will a brother and Will reacted accordingly. Will statement here was not really that he preferred Wade, his statement was that for the sake of Wade he is cutting Matt some slack. I mean, what exactly makes you part of the family and what does not. As far as I remember Wade is considered part of the family by everyone. I think there was one point when JP made it clear to him that even if he splits up with Matt, he still belongs to the family. Hence they should be 'equally' related... edit: so yeah, my earlier statement in the last post about the blood relationship was kinda nonsense then... I just figured that while I was writing this... damn someone make a family tree pwetty please? :S

I agree with you, I had hoped that Will would be more mature. I thought he could handle it better, but he proved me wrong. He sounded pretty definite. The only reason to be that direct here is for Matt to wake up. Maybe it was even good he reacted that way. But I really doubt that he had that in mind when he told Matt to, technically, go fuck himself. I didn't expect Will to be as passive as you suggested, but what he did was just one step from the feared explosion. It was pretty much "I will not blow up just this once because someone else asked me to." I have to disagree on something, though. While family is important to Will, I don't remember him ever seeing family as a blood thing. It would be kind of stupid, considering that he is barely related to anyone in blood himself. Wade was the big brother to Will that Matt failed to be. Matt was never all that friendly to Will, he was not understanding in times where Will needed it and so on. Wade was always there for him and always in his corner. He was understanding and when Will was wrong he wasn't snarky but explained things calmly. It makes a lot of sense to me and I believe that pretty much everyone would see it the same way. Will trusts Wade almost (or exactly) as much as he trusts JP. I would see the whole lawyer thing during emancipation as one of many examples for that. Wade is as much part of the family as Matt is, probably even more so. He is certainly closer to most family members.

Josh Soft snoring… Why is there someone snoring in my room? And whatever I am lying on, it is definitely not my own comfortable bed. It is way too hard for that. I opened my eyes and it took me a second to realize that I was still at Jacob’s place. A glance over to the nightstand told me it was a little past 5am. I usually didn’t wake up this early, but then again, I usually didn’t go to bed as early as I had last night. I felt a yawn coming, and made to stretch myself. The only sound that ca

I would like to add one (more specific) thing to what Mark annumerated there: Wade is also a father. While the whole arrangement is not the typical one and he certainly doesn't have as much of a burden with his son as a regular guy his age would have, he does have him. He sees Riley growing up, he is his father and he feels as such. I think he wants to provide him with a good future, with two loving dads. Matt does not fit into that equation, though. Even if Matt does not have the responsibility to Riley like it would be in other cases, even if he might not even have much with him to do, it must pain Wade. It must hurt him that he wanted to create a baby, a new life, together with Matt and now that there is this new life, Matt is busy partying and fucking around. I don't remember the original arrangements, but Jeany and Tiffany have broken up long ago and Jeanine is dead. That leaves Riley with Tiffany and Wade. I don't remember Matt's general attitude towards Riley during 9.11, at least not right now. Is it because I simply forgot it or is it because there is nothing? I just realized that when I read your post and thinking about it, I feel really sorry for Wade. I don't remember much that showed the connection between Wade and his son, which I either must have missed or if i didn't I think it's missing in the story. However, I can well imagine that this is another thing on Wade's mind, even if only in the background. Love Sammy

@B1ue: In fact, I do not only have 3 siblings, but also a brother who, just like me, is bi (he is leaning female though), and has a similar taste in man as I have, who attends the same gay youth group that I attend and who has the some of the same friends that I have. So actually, this situation is not all that unreal to me. @PrivateTim: I had the impression that you were justifying Matt's actions, which apparently you did not. I must've gotten that wrong. However, I think even if Will did exactly the same to someone else in the family, which I don't see he did, then I would still judge Matt and Will differently. Will makes mistakes, yes, but I do have the impression that he tries to learn and to improve as a person in generell. Even if he does something like with Zach's car, you have to leave him that he did it because he thought it was the right thing to do. Matt, right now, seems only malicious, careless and he does not even try to apologize or change. That is at least the impression I have. I think that is also the reason why people cut Will a lot of slack, but condemn Matt. I'm not sure if age, in numbers, is a real excuse here. I don't know if I excused Will with that before, but I'm thinking about it now... Will wants to be treated like an adult, like Matt and Wade and all the other young adults are treated, so thinking about it, he should at least try to act like one, too. If he does not he will lose that respect at some point. (simply by the way he acts). Currently I don't see much problems there, though. We argued a lot about the other things and it's probably an agree to disagree thing there, but the thing with Ethans friend? I never saw a problem there (other than with other things where I see the controversy, more or less). If you hadn't pointed it out, I wouldn't have thought of it. I don't see why it really is a problem. So it is wrong that if a guest to the CAP family brings a guest of his to the house (more or less, technically both are Wade's guests) and someone fucks them, that's wrong? Half the family should be guilty of that, no? I mean, there was no relationship or anything, it didn't interfere with the time Ethan and his friend had. Ethan didn't even know about it, did he? I don't remember it all that well, to be honest, but probably that is because I skimmed it as "just another sex scene with a random no name". I mean, explain it to me. I simply don't see any harm there.^^

Thank you Mark! I wanted to reply and point these things out (I completely agree with you and had the same things on my mind), but kind of backed out because this is making me too emotional and posting emotional is never good when you're back from partying, and drunk. ^^ It's kind of funny how we're taking sides and arguing this whole thing. I cannot understand Tim's reasoning at all, and sometimes it even gets me really annoyed. Not only in this case but also previously (not Tim in particular, I just mean the general discussion). However, I now realize that this kind of makes us all a little part of the CAP family (or the CAP family a part of us). We don't always see reason and we have different opinons about things, just like Will and Matt and Brad and so on do. It seems that certain people do have certain favorites. I at least know that rjo and me are almost always on Will's side, and I have a feeling that Tim really doesn't like him at all. It might get to me sometimes, but that's okay. Even good, I think. No hard feelings, Tim, and others I disagree with sometimes! I'm as fond of you as Will of the bitchy JJ. I might be annoyed that you see things completely different from how I do, but at the end of the day we are still all on the same page: We are CAP readers and we love this story! And just like in CAP, we're not in the agreement corner here. Without some different opinions, this thread would be boring. Bitching about Zach's car is half the fun. (ok, I'm going to pass out now and I hope when I wake up tomorrow that I don't think this is complete BS ) Night!

I am actually not so sure about this one. I think a while back I would've said that JJ might well do it. We have seen a lot of changes in JJ, though. Often, when I think of JJ and Will I remember the scene when JJ took off his ring and marched out together with Will, or the scene in the bus between the two of them, after Robbie died. I doubt that JJ would deliberately hurt Will. It is hard to really read him, though, and there might be many factors playing in. Maybe one could say it is very unlikely, but never say never? (You never know what kind of drama lies ahead, lol) Also, it seems kind of hypothetic to me. JJ is not exactly the guy to fuck around at all, and even less with someone who fucks around with his brother. I think the last intimate scenes of him have shown that very clearly. --- Haha Mark was faster... well, what he said

I can't really agree here. Will did run away when he was desperate and after that military nanny guy, I probably would have done the same. Yes, Matt has been rejected by his parents, but you can hardly comepare that to his situation. His parents are okay with him being gay now, and they have been for quite some time. Robbie didn't know about him existing, and once he learned about it, he did his best to make up for that. Also, at no point in time, Matt felt the despair of being totally at his parent's will. Even when they cut him off, it was not nice, true, but he simply went to JP and got some money to cover tuition and stuff. Will didn't even get that, when I remember back to Norway, even Stef fucked up there. Yes, Matt had some stuff in his past, too, but as far as I remember all of those things are completely fixed and forgotten. Also, I completely understood Matt and his ways back then, when all that stuff happened. I even cut him some slack after that, but there is some point in time when that's over. Just like I expect Will to fully grow up at some point. There hasn't been much time since all that emancipation stuff happened, other than with Matt. There, it's years ago. Now, Matt sure has reasons to be the way he is, but I don't see any of the things you mentioned having anyhing to do with it. Robbie's death? Sure. The whole clinging to his student life thing Mark mentioned? Yeah, might be. I also don't see what you mean with the contrary evidance. Sure, Will is loved, and always was, but that doesn't change that people who love someone can also make mistakes. Brad did handle the whole situation very badly. If you think that he should have just beat up Will so Will becomes a nice little boy and does everything he is told, then I think we have to agree to disagree.^^ I suppose we can agree on one thing: Neither of those two is perfect and they both do hot-headed and immature decisions. The trend is for Will to grow up and for Matt to go backwards, though. At least that is my impression. One more thing to add: I don't see how Will buying Zach a car (or something like that) compares to what Matt did. I think that Will is right where you mentioned him in the paragraph before. He is very forgiving of people when he feels that they actually feel sorry for what they did and that they have changed. I can't remember him bearing any grudges. I was actually pissed off at him for a few times when he simply let things go. However, you are also right. I hope that Will doesn't totally blow up on this one. Without Wade's intervention he probably would have, and that might have caused a lot of trouble. I think he would've let himself go down to Matt's level and that shows that he probably still is immature sometimes. That being said, I also doubt that Matt will see what he did wrong, at least not all that easily. Even though Tony is kind of already out of the picture for Will, it doesn't change what Matt did. What would you say if your brother fucked your lover (or whatever) behind your back even though you made it clear that it was off limits? Because that is technically the situation. I'm sure that neither of us would say "Oh my, you just lost your father (who was my father, too, remember?) and then I can really understand what you did, even if you give a fuck about me and don't even see what you did wrong..." Or would anyone here react like that? Will is forgiving, as I said, but not if people don't want to be forgiven (i.e. don't see what they should be forgiven for in the first place). Actually, I'm sure if Matt would go to Will and say like: "You know what? I was being stupid. I did it to piss you off and now I see how wrong that was. I'm really sorry I fucked him and broke the trust you had. I will not do it again and I'm really sorry. Forgive me pwetty pwetty please with a cherry on top?" -> if he would do that, and mean it, then I think Will would actually get over it quickly. He might still burn down Matt's car but I think that a couple days later it will be all forgotten. Now if Matt is all like "you know what, fuck you, I do what I want and I'll fuck Zach next", then it would get really ugly. No matter what Matt's situation, I doubt Will would forgive him that. Not because he is immature but because it means much more than that. It means that Matt can't be trusted and that he is willing to harm the relationships his brother(s and other family members) have, just because he can. And I don't think Will would be immature for making an issue out of it. I would probably do the same thing (if not with such a big blowup like Will would).

Lol, it might actually work. ;D No seriously, Will isn't that easy (actually, he is, but only if it seems real enough to him, and Matt wouldn't be able to convince him of that)... also, I doubt he would fuck Matt. There is this brother thing and then there is Wade. And it seems that whole issue with Zach's car isn't going to be forgotten any soon. Gave me a good laugh, though.

I'm sorry I haven't been reading and posting here much, lately. Anyway, I thought I just had to comment here after reading the latest chapter... I think it has been mentioned quite some in the reviews but... I'm kind of glad that Tony is history now (or is he? LOL never underestimate a Mark Arbour... it seems too easy of an end for all that drama....) Also, rjo said in his review that this is not just about grief, but about Matt being like this for 4 years, and I kind of have to agree with him. It made me wonder whether Matt really should remember of Robbie... or maybe rather of Jeff? Only, he isn't doing heroine, he's doing dicks. Some people said they hope that this is the end of Matt and Wade and I don't know. Those two started out being really great and then Matt became an asshole. I really liked him in the beginning but ever since he's been a captain of that team I've kind of started losing my respect for him. He really became a dick after that first book. Still, it's hard to see this relationship go down the tubes... (or go down the creek, as we say in German ) I would honestly wish for Matt to change, but I doubt that will happen. He might change some, might see some of his mistakes, but I'm not convinced he will change completely... I just hope I don't have to go through all the emotional pain with Wade like we used to with Brad, because I like Wade a lot more than I like Brad.... ^-^ There is one interesting question though... if Matt doesn't end up being the right guy for Wade... who then? Anyway, that was my two cents (and a gallon of beer ) A good night to everyone! Sammy