Relationships

[GaryKelly]

As foolish as it is, or may sound to some people, I love the fact that making a vow to love another human being for eternity. I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

I'm not sure I understand this commitment thing. To me, commitment sounds like something you'd rather not be doing and every time I've loved anyone it's been as easy as falling off a log. BTW, these days I don't need a log.

[Razor]

Earning trust? I think the idea of "earned" trust is a big problem.

 

When I meet a person, unless I have obvious reason, I immediately place a good level of trust with that person. I agree to give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong. I've always been that way, so I give people a chance instead of being closed off.

 

Earning trust makes it sound like you have to do some gigantic thing to get someone to not brush you off to the side... I prefer the idea of trusting until found untrustworthy. At least I can always say I tried to be their friend.

[eliotmoore]

Relationships, as we define them here, are a mythical state of being that exist between two people. I say mythical because every society creates and defines its own myths and reinforces them with its art, literature and music. In some ways everyone tries to model their relationships and their expectations for them on cultural archetypes that may or may not fit for either partner...

 

As gay people, there are no societal archetypes for our relationships... What art that does depict gay love/relationships is carefully hidden away in the adult wing of most galleries like a copy of Hustler in a convenience store.

 

We don't do ourselves any favors by trying to adopt hetero archetypes. Society does its best to slam the door on any attempt to do so. Gay Marriage faces a possible constutional ban-- an unprecidented political strategy in the history of civil rights. Gay Adoption faces similar difficulties: outright bans in some states or laws that make gay adption so legally constrictive and difficult that only the very rich need even try.

 

Nor do we do ourselves justice when we go to the other extreme of one night stands, sex as a sport, score early and often.

 

The difficulty that we face is that we are on a dark, moonless highway and can see only as far as our headlights. There are no signs or maps and we have to be careful of curves. We face the unknown, even the unknowable, with alien expectations from a world that we have no part or say in. We must navigate this road without getting lost in the dark, side-tracked or detoured. We must find this way with character and courage and not shrink from difficulty or pain.

 

If this sounds hard, that's because it is. Most people get lost along the way or give up. When a path is smooth, flat and well worn, anyone can follow it. It is the untried path that tests and challenges the very limits of our courage, passion and resolve.

 

I so agree with this (sorry for the slight editing!). Two things perhaps; gay relationships are human and they are as old as any in human history. The path may not be that dark. I think they share many of the same archetypes as hetero relationships. The literary expression of the gay relationship has been locked away but before the Moral Right shuts down our access to the internet we may have a chance to change that a little.

 

Oh, the second point... we can marry in Canada! yah na na na na!

[GaryKelly]

When a path is smooth, flat and well worn, anyone can follow it. It is the untried path that tests and challenges the very limits of our courage, passion and resolve.

 

Too true. I drink way too much (my excuse is my Irish heritage) so my path always seems untried even if it's well worn. Seriously, James, you're one smart cookie.

[eliotmoore]

Too true. I drink way too much (my excuse is my Irish heritage) so my path always seems untried even if it's well worn. Seriously, James, you're one smart cookie.

 

 

Perhaps I should drive to work across the fields instead of following the tried path of the road! I will courageously leave my car on top of a rock or cow. No really, it is all a nice blend of drawing upon past wisdom and experience and risk-taking creativity... In all things a balance, da?

[GaryKelly]

In all things a balance, da?

 

Balance? Wot dat?

[Graeme]

Graeme, I don't know what I can add to this but since I suspect your motivation in posting this thread, I feel compelled to say something.

My motivation was because I had involvement with two completely separate relationship issues occur on the same day. Yes, yours was one and it made me reflect on all the lessons I learn back in 2004 when I went through the same thing as you. By itself, I probably wouldn't have started this thread, but the other one made me realise that there are a lot of people out there that still have trouble with relationships and what they mean. I was hoping to get a range of opinions and comments, and I've been very pleased with what's been said. Most of it has had me nodding my head as I recognise the truth in what's been said.

 

Earning trust? I think the idea of "earned" trust is a big problem.

 

When I meet a person, unless I have obvious reason, I immediately place a good level of trust with that person. I agree to give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong. I've always been that way, so I give people a chance instead of being closed off.

 

Earning trust makes it sound like you have to do some gigantic thing to get someone to not brush you off to the side... I prefer the idea of trusting until found untrustworthy. At least I can always say I tried to be their friend.

To clarify, my interpretation is that we are talking about degrees of trust. Using an example, I trust most people I meet to be honest, fair and reasonable. If I learn otherwise, I try to remember that. However, there are not many people I meet in real life that I would trust with the information that I'm gay. Most of them don't need to know it, so that isn't a problem, but there is an extra level of trust required for me to give out that information. Similarly, there are only a few people that I would trust with access to my bank accounts. The common factor is that in both cases a betrayal of that trust hurts a lot more, and hence a higher level of trust is required. This is what needs to be "earned".

[TheUnwanted]

Some recent events have made me think about what a relationship means, and how they can be made to work.

 

For simplicity, I'm going to stick with just partnership relationships and leave parent/child and friend relationships alone.

 

To me, a relationship forms when you start to care more about the well being of the other person than yourself. A strong relationship is one where that is mutual.

 

To make a relationship work involves compromise. Sometimes that compromise is as easy as not cooking certain meals because the other person doesn't care for them. Other times those compromises are hard. I'm gay, but I'm staying faithful to my wife because that's the compromise I needed to make to keep our marriage together. Most of the time that isn't a problem, but sometimes it is very difficult and I need her help.

 

The danger in a relationship is that the compromises can end up being lopsided. When one person starts to compromise themselves out of existance, then that is an unhealthy relationship.

 

What do other people think about relationships?

 

I just got me a question like cuz like I were told that no one more important than me no matter how much I love them or nothing but Greame he say that what love is

[Morganx]

I had a long talk with my boyfriend just to get everything out in the open and I

[Ieshwar]

Thanks for the compliment, GaryKelly.

 

But I got another question. Imagine a case, hmmm, take me for example. I HATE alcoholism. I can't live with someone who drinks. Then, one day I fall in love with a guy. It's mutual. He's charming, intelligent, mature and he's really ... my dream prince until I discover that he drinks. So what should I do? Compromise? (That would make my life a living hell!) Or separate? (Just for one 'flaw'? We LOVE each other. It would nearly kill me.)

 

And another question, btw, if someone isn't able to compromise, does this mean his love is weak? Love is supposed to 'overcome all obstacles'. At least, that's what I heard but I don't agree.

 

Eager once more to hear your responses.

Ieshwar

[Graeme]

I just got me a question like cuz like I were told that no one more important than me no matter how much I love them or nothing but Greame he say that what love is

 

Actually, being "told" is not what love is. Words are easy -- too easy. If the actions match the words, then that's love (at least I think it is). The words are good, but it is the actions that are important.

 

I had a long talk with my boyfriend just to get everything out in the open and I

[Ieshwar]

So what if someone can

[Graeme]

So what if someone can

[Ieshwar]

Graeme, thanks for answering my constant questions. Hope it was not annoying.

 

Take care,

Ieshwar

 

Sorry. It should have been another thread.

Edited June 10, 2007 by AFriendlyFace

[James Albert]

When you enter into a relationship, lots of doors close on you, but at the same time many open. I think that sometimes, we all feel like we're giving more than we get, but your partner may be feeling exactly the same. We can't rely simply on compromise to make a relationship work, although its very important, no relationship could be successful without understanding, and this can only be achieved through communication.

 

I think its extremely important that, should you feel difficulties in a relationship, you should discuss it with your partner, thats what they're there for after all.

 

I also find that personally, being in what i hope is a very long-term relationship as a teenager, one of the most essential things, is to be able to look forward to a future with your partner, where you can see yourself being happy, even if your future looks a lot different to what you'd ideally like it to be, but this again leads to compromise.

[GaryKelly]

Thanks for the compliment, GaryKelly.

 

But I got another question. Imagine a case, hmmm, take me for example. I HATE alcoholism.

 

And another question, btw, if someone isn't able to compromise, does this mean his love is weak? Love is supposed to 'overcome all obstacles'. At least, that's what I heard but I don't agree.

 

Eager once more to hear your responses.

Ieshwar

 

Sorry for the late response, Ieshwar. Alcoholism? Very nasty... I care for two alcoholics and now they rarely touch a drop. I can't stand drunks. As to me and my imbibing, I'm a sipper...and I'm of Irish descent. I loathe being drunk, but I don't mind being a little merry. There's a big diff.

 

Second question: If someone isn't able to compromise it's a matter of degree...like if you love me you'll live in Alaska in an igloo. That's an impossible question to answer without knowing all the facts. And no, depending on those facts, it doesn't necessarily mean a love is weak. But there are limits to compromise and that is something that only two peeps in a relationship can sort out. For me, it's pretty black and white...you like? Cool. You don't like? Byeeeeeeeee.

 

And here's something to keep in mind...harsh but true: Love is the gross exaggeration of one person over everybody else. George Bernard Shaw

[BeaStKid]

Alcoholism? Very nasty... I care for two alcoholics and now they rarely touch a drop. I can't stand drunks. As to me and my imbibing, I'm a sipper...and I'm of Irish descent. I loathe being drunk, but I don't mind being a little merry. There's a big diff.

 

I totally agree with you Gary...I've seen alcoholism at its worst in my family. Trust me it has totally devastated the very essence of what we base a family upon.. Light drinking is welcome, but when it gets out of hand is a big NO..

 

So to all the youngsters (like me) I learnt the lesson by seeing someone ruin his life(n ours too)...I hope you learn it without these ordeals..(I'm getting too preachy here...Sorry, the topic is quite close to my heart. )

[Graeme]

Graeme, thanks for answering my constant questions. Hope it was not annoying.

No, it hasn't been annoying. Sometimes discussing hypotheticals helps clarify things in the mind of both the asker and answerer.

[GaryKelly]

When you enter into a relationship, lots of doors close on you, but at the same time many open.

 

Good thing you don't live here in Oz...there's a law against 15 y/os being as smart as you.

[Luc]

First of all, the irony of ME attempting to say anything intelligent or useful on the subject of relationships is NOT lost on me. But you can learn as much from doing the wrong things as you can from doing the right things.

 

Whenever two people merge their lives some compromise is necessary. It is in the little things, though, like bathroom schedules, meal preferences, entertainment preferences. If anything much larger is needed, then the question becomes whether you are truly compatible.

 

As Graeme said;

 

The danger in a relationship is that the compromises can end up being lopsided. When one person starts to compromise themselves out of existance, then that is an unhealthy relationship.

 

There are always reasons why people choose to remain in relationships that are unhealthy or where they have significant incompatibility issues. You don

[James Albert]

I think this forum would provide a lot of help to everybody. I myself have found it helpful in changing my own outlook on the relationship i'm in. I'd like to thank everyone who has posted, its been very interesting to be able to see all of the different perspectives. However i do have one question, which again relates to the topic of alcoholism.

 

My boyfriend drinks alcohol, not a lot, and he's not been drunk since i've known him. However, i keep pestering him about his drinking, it worries me that he might one day become addicted and ruin both of our lives (although this is very far fetched.) He has done nothing to change his habits except reassure me that our future is safe and he will never allow it to get out of hand. So then i suppose my question is, should one person give up a luxury that they are used to for the sake of another persons paranoia?

[GaryKelly]

So then i suppose my question is, should one person give up a luxury that they are used to for the sake of another persons paranoia?

 

No. Paranoia and reason don't mix. I drink in moderation...which is what I renamed my office.

[Graeme]

My boyfriend drinks alcohol, not a lot, and he's not been drunk since i've known him. However, i keep pestering him about his drinking, it worries me that he might one day become addicted and ruin both of our lives (although this is very far fetched.) He has done nothing to change his habits except reassure me that our future is safe and he will never allow it to get out of hand. So then i suppose my question is, should one person give up a luxury that they are used to for the sake of another persons paranoia?

You have a compromise in place. You've told him you're worried about it becoming an addiction, and he's said he won't let it get out of hand. The next step is really for you to work out at what point you really start to worry -- such as if he gets drunk twice in a month (is that the start of a trend?) -- and then discuss that with him. If he says that its not going to get out of hand, then he'll probably be amenable to working out now under what circumstances you need to take action. As a suggestion, if he gets drunk twice in a month without agreeing to it before hand (eg. you can probably exclude special occasions like a birthday from that count, because you had agreed ahead of time that he was allowed to get drunk), then that's a sign that things are getting out of control. Oh, and I would also suggest that if he's controlling things now, then you shouldn't start the above until he's eighteen -- he should be trying not to get drunk until then.

 

These are only suggestions for you to consider. It is a compromise that allows him to enjoy himself in moderation while catering for your concerns. Discuss your concerns with him and work out between yourselves what's acceptable. DON'T tell him that this is what you want to do -- that's dictating, not discussing. You can propose something like the above, but let him consider it and make his own suggestions.

 

Good luck!

[AFriendlyFace]

OK, I have some new comments and thoughts:

Earning trust? I think the idea of "earned" trust is a big problem.

 

When I meet a person, unless I have obvious reason, I immediately place a good level of trust with that person. I agree to give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong. I've always been that way, so I give people a chance instead of being closed off.

 

Earning trust makes it sound like you have to do some gigantic thing to get someone to not brush you off to the side... I prefer the idea of trusting until found untrustworthy. At least I can always say I tried to be their friend.

Great method, Jamie! I try to do this too.

 

Thanks for the compliment, GaryKelly.

 

But I got another question. Imagine a case, hmmm, take me for example. I HATE alcoholism. I can't live with someone who drinks. Then, one day I fall in love with a guy. It's mutual. He's charming, intelligent, mature and he's really ... my dream prince until I discover that he drinks. So what should I do? Compromise? (That would make my life a living hell!) Or separate? (Just for one 'flaw'? We LOVE each other. It would nearly kill me.)

Ieshwar

I agree with what Graeme said; there's definately a difference between "I drink sometimes" and "I'm an alcoholic". I always try to avoid using black and white thinking. Also, I agree with Graeme about this situation probably not arising very often in the first place. I mean if you met a guy and started getting close with him you'd probably realize right away that he drank from time to time. After you know this it's really up to you what you do with that knowledge. You probably won't already be in love with him at this early stage (infatuatated maybe, but not "love"). So decide then and there if you're going to be okay with him drinking sometimes. If you know it's not something you can get past, then I'd suggest cutting things off sooner rather than later. I mean you should communicate with him, and give him the option of saying "well I'll just quit then." But personally at such an early stage in the relationship while I think he should have the option, I don't necessarily think it's fair for you to demand that or for him to make that sacrifice (but again that would obviously depend on unforseeable circumstances).

 

If you decided that it was okay, and that you were going to be able to get past it, then that's what you need to do. Just accept it and leave it alone unless it becomes a problem. And as always communication is key.

And another question, btw, if someone isn't able to compromise, does this mean his love is weak? Love is supposed to 'overcome all obstacles'. At least, that's what I heard but I don't agree.

 

Eager once more to hear your responses.

Hmm, I kinda think this is a "loaded" question. Yes, ideally love can overcome great obsticales, but as Luc said one must never compromise one's self out of existence. If at the time in your lives you're not ready to have a bf who drinks and he's not ready to completely give the stuff up, then that does sound rather non-negotiable. Personally, (and this is just my personal biases speaking) I couldn't imagine this being a "non-negotiable" relationship breaker for me. If I were the non-drinking partner I'd probably just be like "well okay, you can drink from time to time, just becareful and don't let it get out of hand". If I were the drinking partner I'd probably just say "well okay, if it's means that much to you I'll stop". But then for me personally, I do drink, I enjoy it, and I happily get drunk in safe environments from time to time. But I'm a fun, positive drunk. I only ever get silly and playful when I'm drunk, not sad or abusive, and while I enjoy it it's just one more thing I enjoy. I've often gone months without drinking at all, and I can pretty much take it or leave it. So if I really cared about a guy and it was important to him that I not drink I just wouldn't drink, it's not a big priority for me. Similarly, I have pretty relaxed attitudes about the whole thing and my main moral code is "as long as no one (including the person themself) gets hurt, go for it". So I'd probably just sorta be like "Yeah okay, drink if you want, just be careful".

 

Anyway, the other important thing to remember is that we can all sit here and speculate about how things should be, but the fact remains that when the situation comes up only the individual people involved are going to know what's best for them, and they're still just going to have to make up their own rules as they go just like everyone else.

 

 

I think this forum would provide a lot of help to everybody. I myself have found it helpful in changing my own outlook on the relationship i'm in. I'd like to thank everyone who has posted, its been very interesting to be able to see all of the different perspectives. However i do have one question, which again relates to the topic of alcoholism.

 

My boyfriend drinks alcohol, not a lot, and he's not been drunk since i've known him. However, i keep pestering him about his drinking, it worries me that he might one day become addicted and ruin both of our lives (although this is very far fetched.) He has done nothing to change his habits except reassure me that our future is safe and he will never allow it to get out of hand. So then i suppose my question is, should one person give up a luxury that they are used to for the sake of another persons paranoia?

My opinion is trust your boyfriend until you have a reason not to, but always be open with communicating your thoughts and feelings, and try to encourage him to as well.

 

No. Paranoia and reason don't mix. I drink in moderation...which is what I renamed my office.

 

Yep, I've got the same method; I only eat chocolate on Sundays...that's why I order so many sundaes

 

Have a great day all!

Kevin

[Morganx]

I think the scariest part of dating, is making yourself vulnerable to being hurt. If you just put up a wall you won't get anywhere, intimacy-wise, but if you just dive in headlong, you're setting yourself up to get badly hurt unless you're extraordinarily lucky. So you have to find that balance, and it's tricky. I feel I have found that balance and I