Homophobia as Emotional Jealousy?

[AFriendlyFace]

So I was just reading an anthology of essays about homophobia when I came across a very interesting argument that had been quoted from James B. Nelson:

"The gay male is resented because he symbolizes the intimacy of men with men, which all men desire but few seem to have. So I punish in others both what I desire and what I also fear in myself. Thus, homophobia strikes most men because we feel in the depth of our own beings our desire for closeness to other men, emotionally and physically even if not genitally. So the resentment against gay males builds. And it builds in all of us regardless of our sexual orientation, for gays inevitably internalize homophobia in a homophobic society, and it becomes self-rejection."

 

Ignore the bit about internalized homophobia. I'm so sick of hearing about it, and I find it to be utter nonsense for me and many other contemporary gay males. I think it's a largely out-dated concept.

 

However, the rest of that paragraph seems very striking and resonating to me. The essay continued by arguing that not only are straight males jealous of gay males emotional intimacy with other males, but they're also jealous of their emotional intimacy with females. This too seemed to resonate with me.

 

For me at least, one of the reasons I'm primarily interested in relationships (not specifically romantic/sexual but any type of relationship) with gay males or females is precisely because of emotional intimacy. I don't have much interest in forming friendships with people whom I won't be able to be emotionally intimate and by and large most straight males are unwilling or unable to be truly emotionally intimate with other males (some can't even do it with females. Some can do it with males but only family members or very long-term friends).

 

I've had many satisfying friendships with straight males in the past, and I knew that they cared about me, but even then it always felt like something was missing. Like we just couldn't take our emotional intimacy to the next level, at least not consistently and not without special circumstances.

 

Then lo and behold, as I grow up I start forming more and more friendships with gay males and find that most of them are just as good as females at being emotionally intimate and physically, but non-sexually, affectionate. I can hug my gay male friends, touch them affectionately, talk about my feelings, listen to theirs, it's great; it's what a friendship should be IMO.

 

Looking back, I realize that all my close friendships with straight males were with guys that were more emotionally open or who that for whatever reason were able to be more open with me at least.

 

Anyway, obviously I'm not saying that all straight males are incapable of being emotionally intimate or that all gay males and females are capable, but I think that's a fairly accurate generalization. Really, I pity you poor straight females, I'd hate to have to try to consistently figure out a way to be intimate with a straight guy!

 

 

Anyway, thoughts on this?

 

-Kevin

[Richard Lyon]

I think it's unfortunate that the term homophobia has become used as though it is synonymous with all forms of anti-gay prejudice. The original notion for the term was something that was psychologically rooted and likely convoluted.

 

Anti-gay prejudice can arise from economic and political factors, religious bigotry, etc. Much of that is abating in western industrial society along with and closely linked to the changes in gender roles. That change will leave us with the question as to how much of the weird and exotic behavior of straight men might be peculiar to their very nature.

 

I do believe that we can make cultural changes in some of the nastier forms of prejudice, but human sexuality will remain. It gives rise to strong and ofter troubling feelings. Achieving comfortable intimacy seems to run at cross purposes with sexual arousal or the fear of it.

[Tiger]

I think another part of it may be the fact that most people are not 100% gay or straight. I have admitted that, while I am hesitant, there is a morbid curiosity. I think that's all to common with straight men as well. However, to say that the little tinge of curiosity makes me bi and makes straight men bi is utter nonsense. As far as emotional intimacy with other humans, that is certainly a good thing. I happen to seek that with men and women alike. Hugs are wonderful. Why so many straight men deprive themselves of it is beyond me. It's nothing but machismo bull crap.

[rknapp]

So I was just reading an anthology of essays about homophobia when I came across a very interesting argument that had been quoted from James B. Nelson:

 

[...]

 

-Kevin

Now that you mention, I've noticed this as well. With my straight friends, physical contact is limited to hand shakes. Some have very physical hand shakes, involving a sort of "half-hug". Not once have I been able to "connect" with them emotional. My gay friends are different. Most of them encourage some kind of deep emotional connection, and insist on holding the other when he's down, including stroking his shoulder or back. It's not sexual at all, yet straight men seem to fear it.

 

[...]

 

It's nothing but machismo bull crap.

Bingo. Much of our society still views being gay as a bad thing, so most straight guys avoid anything "touchy-feely" because it isn't "manly". I spent so many years not knowing any gay men that when one consoled me in the not-so-distant past, it was strange when he put his arm around me and let the ends of his fingers stroke me softly... then he tickled me, but that's beside the point. The point is it felt strange and it shouldn't have. Again, it wasn't sexual at all.

[Yagami_Light]

It's because they're afraid of the gay banditos

[JamesSavik]

I don't really buy the "emotional jealousy" angle. In today's EMO world, guys can cry (and if I had to listen to that muzak, I'd cry too- ack tun it off!)

 

We were discussing this in a thread a week or so ago when I read a new definition that read a fear and loathing of homosexuals; a fear of becoming homosexual.

 

Others have discussed a "sexual continuum"- a concept that has been around for some time in which purely heterosexual and purely homosexual people are somewhat rare (~8-12%) and occupy the extremes of the sexual continuum and most people fit in the middle somewhere (70-80%).

 

I believe that the really ugly side of homophobia is a combination of a person with bisexual inclinations and a intense fear of becoming a full fledged flaming, chaps wearing, feather boa waving homosexual. No one said the fear had to be rational and when people think about groups, they tend to think in terms of stereotypes.

 

When you add together concept of the sexual continuum and the bizarre experiences that we all have with supposedly str8 males, we know better than anyone how thin that line really is and how many srt8 people step over it on any given Friday night (plus or minus a few [dozen too many] drinks).

[Drewbie]

I think another part of it may be the fact that most people are not 100% gay or straight. I have admitted that, while I am hesitant, there is a morbid curiosity. I think that's all to common with straight men as well. However, to say that the little tinge of curiosity makes me bi and makes straight men bi is utter nonsense. As far as emotional intimacy with other humans, that is certainly a good thing. I happen to seek that with men and women alike. Hugs are wonderful. Why so many straight men deprive themselves of it is beyond me. It's nothing but machismo bull crap.

 

I agree with that statement, Like kevin said, I know some a few straight guys that can be affectionate, I Like being affectionate, I'm not afraid to cry I don't care if guys are supposed to. I love getting hugs and receiving them

[corvus]

Ignore the bit about internalized homophobia. I'm so sick of hearing about it, and I find it to be utter nonsense for me and many other contemporary gay males. I think it's a largely out-dated concept.

 

Not that I know exactly what "internalized homophobia" entails, but I rather disagree with you, Kevin -- as long as homosexuals can loath themselves, internalization of homophobia is still pretty relevant. In fact, since I agree with James's assessment that the most dangerous homophobia stems from people with "homosexual potential" (i.e. bi-tendencies), I think internalized homophobia -- if not hits the nail on the head -- then at least gives it a good thud.

 

Then lo and behold, as I grow up I start forming more and more friendships with gay males and find that most of them are just as good as females at being emotionally intimate and physically, but non-sexually, affectionate. I can hug my gay male friends, touch them affectionately, talk about my feelings, listen to theirs, it's great; it's what a friendship should be IMO.

 

Looking back, I realize that all my close friendships with straight males were with guys that were more emotionally open or who that for whatever reason were able to be more open with me at least.

 

Anyway, obviously I'm not saying that all straight males are incapable of being emotionally intimate or that all gay males and females are capable, but I think that's a fairly accurate generalization. Really, I pity you poor straight females, I'd hate to have to try to consistently figure out a way to be intimate with a straight guy!

 

I can't disagree with you more, Kevin. We know you tend to establish the most meaningful personal connections with other gays, but I think that's because you're gay. It's akin to my being able to form more immediate connections with other Chinese-Americans -- it's because we've more shared experiences, more things to put *into* the bond/friendship. Parallels in our nurture provide insight and understanding. I strongly doubt it's because Chinese-Americans are just that much more empathetic.

 

Before you say straight males are less emotionally open, I think you should consider that not everyone shares your paradigm of friendship. Straight men may have a "language" with each other that doesn't include frank discussion of feelings, affectionate touches, blabla -- but which may be just as, or more, profound. It may also be that some of them just have fewer feelings to need to vent!

 

Anyway, I think this whole thing about "straight" and "gay" is ... characterized by a very bad bright line (i.e. ill-defined). Let's say I ask my male friend if he'd like to have sex with another male -- say, me. Let's say his response is: "Sure, but you just don't turn me on." Let's assume he has that response to every single man I file past his eyes. Is he therefore straight? What about my male friend whose response is: "No!" (even though he's secretly turned out by the thought)? Who's "more" straight?

 

 

Anti-gay prejudice can arise from economic and political factors, religious bigotry, etc. Much of that is abating in western industrial society along with and closely linked to the changes in gender roles. That change will leave us with the question as to how much of the weird and exotic behavior of straight men might be peculiar to their very nature.

 

I do believe that we can make cultural changes in some of the nastier forms of prejudice, but human sexuality will remain. It gives rise to strong and ofter troubling feelings. Achieving comfortable intimacy seems to run at cross purposes with sexual arousal or the fear of it.

 

I need to make a statement about "anti-gay prejudices" in China -- which, considering that China has as many people as US + Europe, I think is relevant. All prejudices in "ancient times" (before the end of the dynastic era) can be traced back to Confucianism, according to which, the most important thing was to be filial to one's parents and produce children. This was a social responsibility. As such, monogamous relationships between men was frowned on, because: guy + guy =/= natural progeny. Extramarital affairs with other men was as tolerated as extramarital affairs with other women -- i.e. a nasty vice, but people (usually the rich) did it anyway. "Anti-gay prejudices" was a Western introduction. Anyway, who knows how straight those Chinese guys were, way back -- the most famous Chinese novel, "Romance of the Three Kingdoms," describes the three principle characters (sworn brothers) as being very intimate and sleeping in the same bed.

 

 

I believe that the really ugly side of homophobia is a combination of a person with bisexual inclinations and a intense fear of becoming a full fledged flaming, chaps wearing, feather boa waving homosexual. No one said the fear had to be rational and when people think about groups, they tend to think in terms of stereotypes.

 

When you add together concept of the sexual continuum and the bizarre experiences that we all have with supposedly str8 males, we know better than anyone how thin that line really is and how many srt8 people step over it on any given Friday night (plus or minus a few [dozen too many] drinks).

 

I quite agree with this.

[Richard Lyon]

Before you say straight males are less emotionally open, I think you should consider that not everyone shares your paradigm of friendship. Straight men may have a "language" with each other that doesn't include frank discussion of feelings, affectionate touches, blabla -- but which may be just as, or more, profound. It may also be that some of them just have fewer feelings to need to vent!

 

That's a good point. People from different cultural backgrounds vary greatly in the way that they express anger. A well mannered WASP may feel that saying, "I was quite upset by your remark" is a clear and unequivocal expression of anger. However, if he's talking to an Italian, it may pass as a casual remark.

[Procyon]

"The gay male is resented because he symbolizes the intimacy of men with men, which all men desire but few seem to have. So I punish in others both what I desire and what I also fear in myself. Thus, homophobia strikes most men because we feel in the depth of our own beings our desire for closeness to other men, emotionally and physically even if not genitally. So the resentment against gay males builds. And it builds in all of us regardless of our sexual orientation, for gays inevitably internalize homophobia in a homophobic society, and it becomes self-rejection."

 

Ignore the bit about internalized homophobia. I'm so sick of hearing about it, and I find it to be utter nonsense for me and many other contemporary gay males. I think it's a largely out-dated concept.

 

Why do you think there are so many non-outed gays out there, is it only because there's homophobia around them? Sadly I don't think that's true. If you learn from your surroundings that women can't be engineers, you're going to think that's true even if you're a woman and you want to be an engineer. If you hear that being gay is a bad thing you're going to think so even if you're gay -- it's not likely that gays in a homophobic environment will think that homosexuality is something great, initially. And I think that is something you cant simply ignore.

 

 

However, the rest of that paragraph seems very striking and resonating to me. The essay continued by arguing that not only are straight males jealous of gay males emotional intimacy with other males, but they're also jealous of their emotional intimacy with females. This too seemed to resonate with me.

 

For me at least, one of the reasons I'm primarily interested in relationships (not specifically romantic/sexual but any type of relationship) with gay males or females is precisely because of emotional intimacy. I don't have much interest in forming friendships with people whom I won't be able to be emotionally intimate and by and large most straight males are unwilling or unable to be truly emotionally intimate with other males (some can't even do it with females. Some can do it with males but only family members or very long-term friends).

 

I think that intimacy is largely, if not completely, cultural. For instance, I also think that Americans (in some circles) are more prone to indiscriminate hugging than people of many other nationalities. Thus I don't really think that straight men feel that they're missing out on closeness, etc. I don't really feel that I am, for instance, even though I don't go round hugging people all the time (although if a nice person comes along and gives me a hug, I'll be pleased, of course. )

 

So no, I don't really think there's any emotional jealousy -- I do agree, though, that there is homophobia for the reasons we were talking about last week in James's thread about homophobia as "a fear and loathing of homosexuals; a fear of becoming homosexual."

 

 

Anyway, obviously I'm not saying that all straight males are incapable of being emotionally intimate or that all gay males and females are capable, but I think that's a fairly accurate generalization. Really, I pity you poor straight females, I'd hate to have to try to consistently figure out a way to be intimate with a straight guy!

 

Um, I happen to like most of the straight guys I know, actually, and if I've had problems with them it wasn't usually because they weren't good at being intimate...

 

 

 

I agree with that statement, Like kevin said, I know some a few straight guys that can be affectionate, I Like being affectionate, I'm not afraid to cry I don't care if guys are supposed to. I love getting hugs and receiving them

 

I agree, I think most guys aren't so apprehensive about that kind of thing anymore, gay or straight. And I do see guys hugging, too, especially in the place I used to work before. They were hugging each other much more often than the women were... (and no, they weren't all gay. ;P )

 

 

I can't disagree with you more, Kevin. We know you tend to establish the most meaningful personal connections with other gays, but I think that's because you're gay. It's akin to my being able to form more immediate connections with other Chinese-Americans -- it's because we've more shared experiences, more things to put *into* the bond/friendship. Parallels in our nurture provide insight and understanding. I strongly doubt it's because Chinese-Americans are just that much more empathetic.

 

I agree completely.

[AFriendlyFace]

I don't really buy the "emotional jealousy" angle. In today's EMO world, guys can cry (and if I had to listen to that muzak, I'd cry too- ack tun it off!)

LOL, and it's my experience that 'emo' straight guys don't tend to be homophobic. LOL, it's the ones that do cry, or express other emotions readily and freely, that - in my experience at least - tend to be the most accepting straight guys. They also happen to be the ones I do enjoy befriending the most.

 

We were discussing this in a thread a week or so ago when I read a new definition that read a fear and loathing of homosexuals; a fear of becoming homosexual.

 

Others have discussed a "sexual continuum"- a concept that has been around for some time in which purely heterosexual and purely homosexual people are somewhat rare (~8-12%) and occupy the extremes of the sexual continuum and most people fit in the middle somewhere (70-80%).

 

I believe that the really ugly side of homophobia is a combination of a person with bisexual inclinations and a intense fear of becoming a full fledged flaming, chaps wearing, feather boa waving homosexual. No one said the fear had to be rational and when people think about groups, they tend to think in terms of stereotypes.

I think this is definitely a good point and definitely a big part of homphobia. I didn't mean to imply that homophobia as emotional jealousy was the primary reason, or even one of the top few reasons, why someone might be homophobic. However, I do think there's something in this theory, and I think it represents an aspect of homophobia.

 

When you add together concept of the sexual continuum and the bizarre experiences that we all have with supposedly str8 males, we know better than anyone how thin that line really is and how many srt8 people step over it on any given Friday night (plus or minus a few [dozen too many] drinks).

That's true, but I'm interested in your take on the reverse. How many 'gay' people do you know who get a few drinks in them and climb into bed with someone of the opposite sex? Shouldn't it be fairly prevalent as well?

 

I think it probably is. I *might* 'experiment' with a pretty girl if I were drunk, single, and fairly horny and she came on to me. I think that probably is the case for a lot of 'gay' and 'lesbian' people as well, but there's that same general fear or reticence in the gay and lesbian community to admit it. What I think it really speaks of is the human need to stay within the lines and have everyone fit into neat little boxes. That definitely adds to homophobia IMO.

 

 

Not that I know exactly what "internalized homophobia" entails, but I rather disagree with you, Kevin -- as long as homosexuals can loath themselves, internalization of homophobia is still pretty relevant. In fact, since I agree with James's assessment that the most dangerous homophobia stems from people with "homosexual potential" (i.e. bi-tendencies), I think internalized homophobia -- if not hits the nail on the head -- then at least gives it a good thud.

 

I have two comments about this:

 

First, I specifically meant 'internalized homophobia' as it relates to openly gay people (sorry I didn't say that). I would assume and readily admit that the incidence of internalized homophobia is probably quite high among closeted homosexuals. Indeed I think that having internalized homophobia is probably one of the main obstacles to coming out.

 

I also think that internalized homophobia and the closet go hand in hand. I think that having internalized homophobia makes one more like to not come out, and I think not coming out makes one more likely to have internalized homophobia. Once a person 'takes the leap' and decides to come out I think that very often they have already dealt with much of their internalized homophobia or at least gotten to a place at which they're ready to start dealing with it. I also think that coming out itself is generally an affirming experience in that you're more likely to associate with other openly gay people (or strongly supportive straight allies) and are thus able to get support and sort of feed off each other's more positive, affirming attitudes. I also think that being out makes it easier to deal with internalized homophobia - even without the impact of other GLBT people - because you can then openly defend yourself and by so doing re-affirm to yourself your positive, healthy beliefs about homosexuality.

 

So I definitely think internalized homophobia is often an issue for closeted people, people who have recently come out, and even a smaller percentage of more long-term out people. However, I really don't think it's anywhere near as prevalent and problematic for openly gay people. Nowadays we're seeing more and more people coming out as soon as they figure out that they're gay or lesbian. I think this results in less time to develop issues with it (after all even if you start out fine with it just having to keep something a 'dirty little secret' for too long makes it feel like a dirty little secret). I also think that an earlier age of coming out is itself indicative of less internalized homophobia.

 

Thus, what I really meant by my statement was that it wasn't that much of a 'big deal' for the average out gay person, especially if he or she is fairly young. It's 'out dated' in that it was more of an issue when the majority of the GLBT population was in the closet (which as I said IMO often indicates, causes, and reinforces internalized homophobia). Homosexuality is much more 'out there' nowadays between the internet, television, movies, and other forms of exposure and it's just less of a taboo issue. As such, I think the people that are able to accept it and be open about it are also less likely to feel badly about it.

 

The second point, was simply that I didn't want to discuss internalized homophobia in this thread (which I've obviously failed egregiously at doing) and instead wanted to keep the focus on a discussion of homophobia as emotional jealousy.

 

 

Before you say straight males are less emotionally open, I think you should consider that not everyone shares your paradigm of friendship. Straight men may have a "language" with each other that doesn't include frank discussion of feelings, affectionate touches, blabla -- but which may be just as, or more, profound.

OK, that's a good and valid point. However, it doesn't really change the general implications of my statement. I am defining 'emotional intimacy' as a comfort and willingness to, as you put it, engage in frank discussions of feelings, have affectionate touches, etc. It's fine if you don't think that necessarily equates to emotional intimacy. In fact I would have to agree with you and I readily acknowledge that my previous statement was based on my own paradigm of emotional intimacy. As a relativist I naturally accept and acknowledge that there's more than one way to be 'emotionally intimate'.

 

However, just as James said about emo guys being emotionally expressive, and my observation that they tend to be less homophobic, I would say that those straight guys who aren't emotionally expressive and affectionate (whether or not they still have another paradigm of emotional intimacy) are still more likely to be homophobic than the straight guys who are emotionally expressive and affectionate (like the ones James mentioned).

 

Basically, all I'm saying is that being emotionally open and expressive and being comfortable with non-sexual affection (which is my paradigm of 'emotional intimacy') makes straight guys less likely to be homophobic and that conversely straight guys who aren't comfortable with this are more likely to feel threatened when they see gay males doing these things with other males or with females.

 

That's a good point. People from different cultural backgrounds vary greatly in the way that they express anger. A well mannered WASP may feel that saying, "I was quite upset by your remark" is a clear and unequivocal expression of anger. However, if he's talking to an Italian, it may pass as a casual remark.

That is an excellent point

 

I for example am unlikely to go around screaming and shouting or breaking things if I'm angry, but if I simply calmly say to someone, "I'm very upset," I feel like I am being emotionally expressive because I'm telling the person how I feel. Granted, I may not be demonstrating.

 

By the same token if someone tells me that they're upset I'm comfortable and able to try to talk things out with them and work on the issue. However, if they start shouting or something I'm more likely to be shocked, uncomfortable, or generally to just shut down and have difficulty attending to their emotions or even openly conveying my own.

 

That's definitely a personal, and yes probably cultural, bias. I imagine that in some cultures and environments a remark about being upset won't get you very far and if you want to discuss it and handle it you do need to be highly demonstrative.

 

Why do you think there are so many non-outed gays out there, is it only because there's homophobia around them? Sadly I don't think that's true. If you learn from your surroundings that women can't be engineers, you're going to think that's true even if you're a woman and you want to be an engineer. If you hear that being gay is a bad thing you're going to think so even if you're gay -- it's not likely that gays in a homophobic environment will think that homosexuality is something great, initially. And I think that is something you cant simply ignore.

This goes back to my clarification above about internalized homophobia.

 

 

Um, I happen to like most of the straight guys I know, actually, and if I've had problems with them it wasn't usually because they weren't good at being intimate...

Well, I was mostly joking before

 

 

I agree, I think most guys aren't so apprehensive about that kind of thing anymore, gay or straight. And I do see guys hugging, too, especially in the place I used to work before. They were hugging each other much more often than the women were... (and no, they weren't all gay. ;P )

Well that's lovely and encouraging As I said, these are the sorts of straight guys I wouldn't expect to be homophobic. If they are homophobic then I would definitely attribute it to a different cause other than jealousy of emotional intimacy (as I said, I by no means meant to imply that that was the main cause of homophobia, only that it probably is one of the causes and that it's worth considering).

 

 

Take care all and have a good day

Kevin

Edited August 5, 2008 by AFriendlyFace

[Richard Lyon]

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulb3tZU8vsk

 

I just watched this clip on YouTube. It is the perfect sendup of straight guys and their "intimacy".

[Procyon]

That's true, but I'm interested in your take on the reverse. How many 'gay' people do you know who get a few drinks in them and climb into bed with someone of the opposite sex? Shouldn't it be fairly prevalent as well?

 

I think it probably is. I *might* 'experiment' with a pretty girl if I were drunk, single, and fairly horny and she came on to me. I think that probably is the case for a lot of 'gay' and 'lesbian' people as well, but there's that same general fear or reticence in the gay and lesbian community to admit it. What I think it really speaks of is the human need to stay within the lines and have everyone fit into neat little boxes. That definitely adds to homophobia IMO.

 

That does definitely add to homophobia, and this raises an interesting issue -- all those bisexuals out there, I think they have a hard time sorting themselves into a slot (well some of them, obviously, not all) since they're neither gay nor straight. So some may either stay in the closet (internalised homophobia) and be continually scared of falling in love with a guy, wihch has been mentioned a few times here.

 

Others may have had a homosexual experience, thought they were gay, and then become scared because they realise, maybe a good while later, that they also fancy girls -- which would make them (in their view) have to leave the box they sorted themselves into (i.e. gay) and become something else, less well-defined.

 

Also, Ive seen (in literature, so I don't know how true this is) an attitude among gays that you should be "loyal" to your homosexuality and not soil it by having sex with the opposite sex. If you have that view of things, or if it's prevalent among those you associate with, you may become scared of suddenly finding yourself fancying a girl.

 

 

The second point, was simply that I didn't want to discuss internalized homophobia in this thread (which I've obviously failed egregiously at doing) and instead wanted to keep the focus on a discussion of homophobia as emotional jealousy.

 

lol well we can stop now.

 

OK, that's a good and valid point. However, it doesn't really change the general implications of my statement. I am defining 'emotional intimacy' as a comfort and willingness to, as you put it, engage in frank discussions of feelings, have affectionate touches, etc. It's fine if you don't think that necessarily equates to emotional intimacy. In fact I would have to agree with you and I readily acknowledge that my previous statement was based on my own paradigm of emotional intimacy. As a relativist I naturally accept and acknowledge that there's more than one way to be 'emotionally intimate'.

 

However, just as James said about emo guys being emotionally expressive, and my observation that they tend to be less homophobic, I would say that those straight guys who aren't emotionally expressive and affectionate (whether or not they still have another paradigm of emotional intimacy) are still more likely to be homophobic than the straight guys who are emotionally expressive and affectionate (like the ones James mentioned).

 

Basically, all I'm saying is that being emotionally open and expressive and being comfortable with non-sexual affection (which is my paradigm of 'emotional intimacy') makes straight guys less likely to be homophobic and that conversely straight guys who aren't comfortable with this are more likely to feel threatened when they see gay males doing these things with other males or with females.

 

I don't know, in many cases I think not displaying emotional intimacy is something you've chosen and are happy with. Of course there's always some people who still secretly want what they haven't got, probably subconsciously, but... really I think it's much more about wanting someone to bully. And traditionally the weak are bullied, and displaying emotions, of course, equals being weak. Luckily that is beginning to change.

 

 

Well, I was mostly joking before

 

Lol, I knowww. But it felt a bit like you were kicking someone who was already down. Okay that's not true I know, but in the context of this thread and this forum it felt like it.

 

Well that's lovely and encouraging As I said, these are the sorts of straight guys I wouldn't expect to be homophobic. If they are homophobic then I would definitely attribute it to a different cause other than jealousy of emotional intimacy (as I said, I by no means meant to imply that that was the main cause of homophobia, only that it probably is one of the causes and that it's worth considering).

 

Yeah! It really was lovely, there were at least three of them who kept doing that. I was getting quite jealous, almost. Emotional jealousy, as it were. Luckily they also included me in their hugging every now and then.

[AFriendlyFace]

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulb3tZU8vsk

 

I just watched this clip on YouTube. It is the perfect sendup of straight guys and their "intimacy".

Oh my gosh! That was just hilarious! That blond guy on the left was cute too

 

 

That does definitely add to homophobia, and this raises an interesting issue -- all those bisexuals out there, I think they have a hard time sorting themselves into a slot (well some of them, obviously, not all) since they're neither gay nor straight. So some may either stay in the closet (internalised homophobia) and be continually scared of falling in love with a guy, wihch has been mentioned a few times here.

 

Others may have had a homosexual experience, thought they were gay, and then become scared because they realise, maybe a good while later, that they also fancy girls -- which would make them (in their view) have to leave the box they sorted themselves into (i.e. gay) and become something else, less well-defined.

 

Also, Ive seen (in literature, so I don't know how true this is) an attitude among gays that you should be "loyal" to your homosexuality and not soil it by having sex with the opposite sex. If you have that view of things, or if it's prevalent among those you associate with, you may become scared of suddenly finding yourself fancying a girl.

Yes, I think you're definitely right!

 

 

 

I don't know, in many cases I think not displaying emotional intimacy is something you've chosen and are happy with. Of course there's always some people who still secretly want what they haven't got, probably subconsciously, but...

Hmmm, personally I just can't understand that....but maybe that's the point.

 

 

really I think it's much more about wanting someone to bully. And traditionally the weak are bullied, and displaying emotions, of course, equals being weak. Luckily that is beginning to change.

Well, I think you're right, but personally I'm still inclined to think that a major motivating factor in the bullying of those who express emotional intimacy is jealousy itself.

 

I guess I could see it from a different angle if I could understand how someone might consciously choose to be emotionally distant as a means of finding happiness and then acquire some measure of success in this.

 

 

Lol, I knowww. But it felt a bit like you were kicking someone who was already down. Okay that's not true I know, but in the context of this thread and this forum it felt like it.

Oh, sorry about that. I really didn't mean to pick on the straight guys.

 

 

Yeah! It really was lovely, there were at least three of them who kept doing that. I was getting quite jealous, almost. Emotional jealousy, as it were. Luckily they also included me in their hugging every now and then.