Forgiveness

[AFriendlyFace]

Hi all,

 

KJames brought up a very interesting point in the Irrational Fears thread and it got me thinking about forgiveness in general. I thought it might be nice to have a thread for the topic. Here's what was said and my opinions on it.

 

4. Either being rejected or unforgiven after apologizing (this bothers me more than rejection) by others.

Well, I'm a big fan of forgiveness, and I definitely try to let go of any anger or resentment and move on. However, I don't think forgiveness is something someone can willfully give. I think it's a process and an emotion. You can "accept" someone's apology, but that doesn't necessarily mean you've forgiven them. To me what "accepting" an apology is about is saying "I acknowledge that you're taking responsibility for your part in what happened, and I'm going to consciously make an effort to move on." I don't think someone can turn it into "I'm no longer hurt or angry about what happened." I just don't think people can control their emotions that way.

 

That said, I definitely can't stand for people I like and care about to be hurt or angry because of my actions either so I can certainly see where you're coming from, I just don't think it's necessarily something I can say is their responsibility to overcome instantly at the time of my apology.

 

At the same time though, I think the person does have some control over the process of forgiveness. I don't think they can force it, but I think they can definitely prevent it by dwelling or being negative and bitter. That part is largely their responsibility. I also think that it's possible to actively work toward forgiving someone, and if they aren't doing that then I can see your point as well.

 

I do think the apology itself is very important in the forgiveness process. If it's a relatively mild offense then I think very often just the act of acknowledging responsibility for it and expressing remorse is enough to evoke the emotions of forgiveness. With more major things though it's going to take some time and some effort on both people's part, in my opinion.

 

 

So what does everyone else thing about this?

 

 

-Kevin

Edited March 28, 2009 by AFriendlyFace

[Krista]

Well I agree with you Kevvers. Forgiving someone is a process and an apology is an important part of that.

[kitten]

It depends on what exactly you mean by forgiveness and the relative seriousness of the offence..

 

If you mean losing your anger and/or any desire for vengeance then it is a process. It can't be controlled (ie switched on or off) but it can be influenced by various things such as how genuine the apology is, your relationship with the offender and your own abaility to achieve and maintain emotional equanimity. Losing one's anger and/or desire for vengeance is a good thing because those emotions have bad effects on oneself as well as others.

 

If, however, by forgiveness you mean returning to the state the relationship was before the offence then I don't think it is either possible or desirable, especially when you have been seriously hurt. Even when you are no longer angry at the offender, the fact remains that he/she has hurt you and may do so again. Therefore you need to treat that person with more caution in future and things can never go back exactly to the way they were. If you are burned by fire, you don't feel anger toward the fire and have no desire for vengeance, but in future you would be wise to treat fire with more caution.

 

For myself, in most cases I find it relatively easy to forgive (as in setting aside anger and revenge) but almost impossible to forget that I've been injured, and so my attitude to the offender will never be the same as it was before the offence.

 

Kit

[Sir Galahad]

I tend to agree with most of what's been posted so far.

I think forgiveness depends on what exactly you have to forgive. if you know somebody didn't do something on purpose, then it comes a lot easier, well, that's a given.

However, if it was deliberate, then I would have a hard time forgiving anyone, depending on the situation. Kit was right in so far that your relationship could never be the same, you would always be on guard against any further breach of trust. Talking from experience, I may have forgiven certain people, but I have never trusted them again the way I would like to.

It's only ever happened once, a long time ago I might add, but if a partner cheats on you, then I think it's a lot harder to forgive what I consider to be the ultimate betrayal. And no, some 7 years later I still haven't done it, we talk etc, but in my heart I know I just can't forgive him for doing what he did.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Sir_Galahad

[SRevol]

i think letting go the anger is a process, when you finish it then you are ready to do the act of forgiveness so it

[JamesSavik]

forgiveness- It's what you do when you can't get revenge. That and drink a lot.

[AFriendlyFace]

It depends on what exactly you mean by forgiveness and the relative seriousness of the offence..

 

If you mean losing your anger and/or any desire for vengeance then it is a process. It can't be controlled (ie switched on or off) but it can be influenced by various things such as how genuine the apology is, your relationship with the offender and your own abaility to achieve and maintain emotional equanimity. Losing one's anger and/or desire for vengeance is a good thing because those emotions have bad effects on oneself as well as others.

Yes, I completely agree and that pretty much sums up my beliefs and attitudes as well.

 

If, however, by forgiveness you mean returning to the state the relationship was before the offence then I don't think it is either possible or desirable, especially when you have been seriously hurt. Even when you are no longer angry at the offender, the fact remains that he/she has hurt you and may do so again. Therefore you need to treat that person with more caution in future and things can never go back exactly to the way they were. If you are burned by fire, you don't feel anger toward the fire and have no desire for vengeance, but in future you would be wise to treat fire with more caution.

 

For myself, in most cases I find it relatively easy to forgive (as in setting aside anger and revenge) but almost impossible to forget that I've been injured, and so my attitude to the offender will never be the same as it was before the offence.

Somewhat regrettably (regrettable to me personally that is) so does this.

 

I agree that it is more or less impossible, for me at least, to forgive and forget. I can't help but to bear in mind the past to some extent, and yes I think it can be very useful to do so. However, depending on the offense, I think it would often be useful to literally forget about it.

 

When I think it's honestly better to forget versus just to forgive is dependent on the circumstances. If the incident was only perceived as offensive due to my own emotional reaction, then I think it's good to try to move beyond it entirely. For example, I may have unknown (unknown to the other person that is, but perhaps even unknown to me), internal biases, feelings, and prejudices that make me overly sensitive to certain things.

 

An easy, non-serious example is that I can't stand to be asked my age. I'm annoyed and slightly offended when it happens. However, rationally I know that the person didn't mean any offense and that they probably thought it was a safe question. I also realize that it has more to with my issues than anyone else's. Thus, I think the best way to deal with that is by telling the other person about my feelings on this score and then trying to "forget" that they had made me uncomfortable and offended me. There's no reason to let this particular offense color my future interactions with the person because it was unreasonable and is somewhat unlikely to occur again.

 

My example is fairly trivial and unlikely to be relevant to many other people. However, I think the general aspects of it do carry over a great deal. We all have "touchy subjects" and "unreasonable expectations." I think these sensitivities and unreasonable expectations are a major cause of the interpersonal disputes we all experience. Once we clarify how we feel, if the other person makes an effort to respect our feelings on these points then I think it's ideal to try to dismiss the incident entirely.

 

On the other hand, if someone offends us, even unknowingly, in a way that should have obviously been offensive, then I think that's worth keeping in mind. For example someone might say something very rude, mean, or offensive, that almost anyone would consider rude, mean, or offensive without meaning to offend. However, while I think it's good to "forgive" that person, I think bearing in mind that incident of insensitivity is worthwhile because that might be indicative of a general tendency toward being insensitive and rude, and that's worth being cautious of. By the same token, if I explain my feelings to someone about being asked my age or being questioned on that topic and they purposely do it again or completely disregard my feelings, then even though I acknowledge that my feelings themselves are somewhat irrational that doesn't change the fact that other person is willfully and knowingly being insensitive and I think that would also be something worth remembering.

 

In general though, if there's no great likelihood that the person will re-offend in the same way, and that generally the offense seems like an isolated thing, then I think forgiving and forgetting are the ideal course of action. Of course it can be difficult to completely forget and move past an offense. I still think it's worth trying in those sorts of instances though.

 

 

Just my thoughts though,

Kevin

Edited March 29, 2009 by AFriendlyFace

[KJames]

i think letting go the anger is a process, when you finish it then you are ready to do the act of forgiveness so it

[AFriendlyFace]

My whole point in writing the rejection v. unforgiven response in the fears thread was based on the fact that I can handle rejection just fine, having had a rough Junior High School and High School life...the other students would tease me about my name being a girl's name, or insinuate that I was gay (which I didn't actually square away until my 17th summer)...so growing up not knowing for sure was an emotional rollercoaster for me--I got used to rejection because of my name. What brought in the "unforgiven" part, was a recent "reconnection" with someone from my school days. This person had asked me, while in school, to loan him something which was well within my ability to do, but the second day this occurred I had to refuse for reasons which I then believed were out of my control (which I should not have).

 

Out of the few fights I got into in Junior High and High School (only 1, there, lucky for me) and this incident, I never regretted the fights--there was the odd time that I came out in the better--only not loaning this guy what he had asked for. It's the only choice of action I've ever regretted. Regret is a much more powerful emotion than sorrow, and it's what drove me to write him a 6 page letter of apology (well, 1 1/2 was to remind him of an event that ocurred, so the apology was 4 1/2) I guess it was because when he approached me the first time and asked me for his favor, he didn't show any disrespect to me because of my name--which I wasn't sure how to handle--and although he could have followed the leads of others in choosing his attitude toward me, remained polite, respectful and civil. It was a new experience for me at 16, both real and emotional, and I found that I liked it--being treated with respect and common courtesy was a rush.

 

Well...this person wrote back that he had pretty much written off all the stuff that happened to him in HS as "childhood experiences"...so not only do I still not know if he accepted my apology whether or not he forgave me for it. I don't know if he ever forgave me for being so, what I consider, foolish at the time, if he did forgive me.

 

That is what hurts--I don't care if it was accepted--he never directly answered the apology.

 

What an interesting and moving experience. I'm sorry for your difficulties.

 

However, not to marginalize your feelings and experience at all, may I offer my initial impression of his response to your letter as you've related it?

 

It seems to me that his response is his way of accepting your apology. He may not have meant to leave any ambiguity at all and simply failed to realize that he was doing so. If someone I'd lost touch with apologized to me about something that had happened years before I may indeed have responded with something along the lines of "What is in the past is in the past." Which would be my way of saying, "Don't worry about it; I'm over it." Which in turn would be my way of indicating that I was actually accepting the apology. I can imagine saying "What's in the past is in the past; don't worry about it," and fully meaning it as a gracious acceptance of the apology without ever realizing that I was leaving any ambiguity there at all.

 

Of course, I can definitely see how you would be frustrated if you had gone to a great deal of trouble to apologize and really poured a lot of effort and emotion into it, only to receive a fairly casual response. I hope then that had it been me I would have recognized the effort, and courage and character that it took, and been more eloquent and explicit in my own response. However, if I somehow missed that, or else was overwhelmed and didn't know how to properly respond, I can theoretically imagine responding casually and not realizing that my response was leaving you in doubt.

 

Really though, I obviously don't know what was said or how he actually responded, so I'm quite possibly completely misreading the situation.

 

Regardless, I commend you for taking such a large, proactive step to settle a matter from your past

 

That definitely merits respect and praise and regardless of how he felt about it, I would say that if it possible you should feel good about the situation and your actions

 

 

Just my thoughts though, and I'm probably full of nonsense

 

Take care and have a great day,

Kevin

[Dolores Esteban]

I also find it hard to forgive AND forget. But we always should try to at least forgive and not embitter, I think. It's hard, very hard sometimes. I always try to find the good in whatever happened. However, it takes years, sometimes.

[W_L]

You never know what others may think; the only way to achieve partial forgiveness is through accepting the facts within for yourself.

 

An apology is not just between people; it's a very hard process that involves a lot of things. Certain things that you can forgive may not be forgiven in that other person's mind. At times, you may want to forgive yourself and that person has forgiven you, but you just can't due to some type of emotional attachment that you placed on it.

 

Complete forgiveness is very difficulty to achieve, if you believe in the Christian idea of Forgiveness, you basically are preached it without being taught how to reach it to its fullness. One reason why theologians would claim that only God can forgive and not human beings.

 

"To err is human, but to forgive is divine"- Alexander Pope

 

I don't believe it needs to come from God that you are forgiven. You must take the approach on your own person first. Forgiveness must begin with you; you must be able to forgive as both the victim and victimizer of the offense no matter how big or small.

 

I can't do it though, so I am very human in that regard.

Edited March 30, 2009 by W.L.

[KJames]

I sent him a followup e-mail a couple weeks later...I know it was delivered, but don't know if he bothered to read it...just explaining that I had been depressed and wanted to let him know what had happened from my side--I could tell that he was extremely hurt that I hadn't followed through back then from the expressions that his face went through, those were emotions I was very familiar with and could read very easily in others--and that I had really wanted a chance to get it off my chest before he faded back into the woodwork.

 

I'm pretty much "over it" but I'd still like to hear from him again--he was the only person in all of my schooling who was ever nice to me, and as I said in my previous post, I found that I liked it. I wanted more interaction like that, but it never came to pass. Life's been good since...actually, it was still rough until about 18 years ago... But, out of all the kids in my graduating class (485), 50% of the guys ended up as dream fodder, and the rest didn't amount to much. I don't find myself wanting to reconnect with any of the others from my own class--only this one person (who was 2 years behind me), who never made it into the "dream fodder" category (and that's in a good way).

[Dolores Esteban]

I sent him a followup e-mail a couple weeks later...I know it was delivered, but don't know if he bothered to read it...just explaining that I had been depressed and wanted to let him know what had happened from my side--I could tell that he was extremely hurt that I hadn't followed through back then from the expressions that his face went through, those were emotions I was very familiar with and could read very easily in others--and that I had really wanted a chance to get it off my chest before he faded back into the woodwork.

 

I'm pretty much "over it" but I'd still like to hear from him again--he was the only person in all of my schooling who was ever nice to me, and as I said in my previous post, I found that I liked it. I wanted more interaction like that, but it never came to pass. Life's been good since...actually, it was still rough until about 18 years ago... But, out of all the kids in my graduating class (485), 50% of the guys ended up as dream fodder, and the rest didn't amount to much. I don't find myself wanting to reconnect with any of the others from my own class--only this one person (who was 2 years behind me), who never made it into the "dream fodder" category (and that's in a good way).

 

 

 

I was badly hurt by a person some twenty years ago. I was able to forgive, yet I did not forget for a very long time. If this person sent me a letter, I most likely would not reply. I'd accept the apology, I think. But I would not want to get in touch with this person again. My life moved on.

 

You received a reply. This person took the time and effort to reply. Thus he shows he accepted the apology, I could imagine. But his life moved on. Consider this. Perhaps he does not want to get in touch with you again. Just give him some time to settle his thoughts.

 

Just my thoughts. I can be mistaken.

[Procyon]

Well, I'm a big fan of forgiveness, and I definitely try to let go of any anger or resentment and move on. However, I don't think forgiveness is something someone can willfully give. I think it's a process and an emotion. You can "accept" someone's apology, but that doesn't necessarily mean you've forgiven them. To me what "accepting" an apology is about is saying "I acknowledge that you're taking responsibility for your part in what happened, and I'm going to consciously make an effort to move on." I don't think someone can turn it into "I'm no longer hurt or angry about what happened." I just don't think people can control their emotions that way.

 

That said, I definitely can't stand for people I like and care about to be hurt or angry because of my actions either so I can certainly see where you're coming from, I just don't think it's necessarily something I can say is their responsibility to overcome instantly at the time of my apology.

 

At the same time though, I think the person does have some control over the process of forgiveness. I don't think they can force it, but I think they can definitely prevent it by dwelling or being negative and bitter. That part is largely their responsibility. I also think that it's possible to actively work toward forgiving someone, and if they aren't doing that then I can see your point as well.

 

I do think the apology itself is very important in the forgiveness process. If it's a relatively mild offense then I think very often just the act of acknowledging responsibility for it and expressing remorse is enough to evoke the emotions of forgiveness. With more major things though it's going to take some time and some effort on both people's part, in my opinion.

 

I agree with very much of this. You can't force forgiveness, but you can help it along, and that's just as important for your own sake as for the sake of the, uh, forgivee? Harhar. It's no use dwelling on things, it'll only make you feel bad. Having said that, it can be horribly hard not to.

 

Hurting someone and getting hurt is often a very complex process where it's not only one party's fault that things happened the way they did, though it may seem like it to each person. Of course, sometimes it can be purely one-sided, but I think that most often it's not, at least if the people involved know each other well. And often the cause can be simple -- maybe stupid -- misunderstandings or misconceptions. If it's a misconception it's important to sort it out, or else it can be hard to move on (="forget"). And I do think it's important to "forget", i.e. let things go back to normal. Of course you don't actually forget things if they're big enough, but I do think you can go back to viewing the person the way you viewed him or her before -- roughly, that is, because things like that change all the time anyway in a relationship (both friends and romantic). But I think that if you want to, you can "forget" in the sense that you trust the person again. The main thing that's needed for that to happen is that you understand why the other person did what they did, on an emotional level if nothing else.

 

Patience and understanding -- haha, I wish I had more of it.

[KJames]

The main thing that's needed for that to happen is that you understand why the other person did what they did, on an emotional level if nothing else.

 

And that's just what I did with this person--the possibility of salvaging a friendship with him was my motivation--he was, interestingly enough, the only person from High School I found that I sincerely wanted a friendship with--even after all these years.

[James_Freestone]

A process. A long strenuous process. One that not many people like to give a try.

 

Oh what a perfect world we'd have if people just learned to let it go.

[kitten]

There is one thing that I don't think has yet been specifically stated, though it has been alluded to in regard to the situation depending on the seriousness of the offence: some things are just totally, absolutely unforgivable. This is not just because I would have an inability to forgive but also because I don't believe that some things should ever be forgiven.

 

Forgiving someone who accidentally steps on my toe is so effortless that it happens without thought. Forgiving someone who murdered a person I love would be impossible for me, and I'd never even consider wanting to forgive them.

 

Between those two extreme examples are things that may or may not be unforgivable, depending on circumstances. For example, if someone told a deliberate lie about me then the whether or not I could forgive them, and whether or not I felt they deserved forgiveness, would depend on the particular lie and the consequences it had. Another example in this 'depends' area would be breach of trust by a friend; it would depend on the seriousness of the breach and the consequences it had.

 

Also between the two extreme examples, there are offences that I could only consider forgiving after the offender has been severely and adequately punished and then shown genuine regret.

 

Thankfully, in my life the serious unforgivable offences have been perpetrated against me only very rarely.

 

Kit

[W_L]

A process. A long strenuous process. One that not many people like to give a try.

 

Oh what a perfect world we'd have if people just learned to let it go.

 

Ever heard of the nickelback song:

 

If Everybody Cared, by Nickelback

 

From underneath the trees, we watch the sky

Confusing stars with satellites

I never dreamed that you'd be mine

But here we are, we're here tonight

 

Singing A-Amen, I, I'm alive (I'm alive)

Singing A-Amen, I, I'm alive

 

[Chorus:]

If everyone cared and nobody cried

If everyone loved and nobody lied

If everyone shared and swallowed their pride

Then we'd see the day, when nobody died

 

And I'm singing

A, Amen I, Amen I, I'm alive

Amen I, Amen I, Amen I, I'm alive

 

And in the air the fireflies

Our only light in paradise

Would show the world they were wrong

And teach them all to sing along

 

Singing A-Amen, I, I'm alive (I'm alive)

Singing A-Amen, I, I'm alive

 

[Chorus x2]

If everyone cared and nobody cried

If everyone loved and nobody lied

If everyone shared and swallowed their pride

Then we'd see the day, when nobody died

 

If everyone cared and nobody cried

If everyone loved and nobody lied

If everyone shared and swallowed their pride

Then we'd see the day, when nobody die ahha ahha ahhh ahd...

 

When nobody die ahha ahha ahhh ahd...

 

And as we lie beneath the stars

We realize how small we are

If they could love like you and me

Imagine what the world could be

 

[Chorus x2]

If everyone cared and nobody cried

If everyone loved and nobody lied

If everyone shared and swallowed their pride

Then we'd see the day, when nobody died

 

If everyone cared and nobody cried

If everyone loved and nobody lied

If everyone shared and swallowed their pride

Then we'd see the day, when nobody die ahha ahha ahhh ahd...

 

We'd see the day, we'd see the day

When nobody die ahha ahha ahhhh ahd...

We'd see the day, we'd see the day,

When nobody die ahha ahha ahhhh ahd...

We'd see the day (died) when nobody died

 

Sorry for breaking into song, but it's a good one for the idea of forgiveness. There's alot of things people can do, but in the end it is very difficult.

[JamesSavik]

Some years ago I was robbed at gunpoint by a crack head. Not just any crackhead- it was one that I knew.

 

I knew him before he was crazy for the crack. Nice guy. I met him at a party and we even slept together a few times.

 

Several years later I'm handing over my cash to him while staring down the barrel of a stolen gun.

 

He gets twenty bucks or so and heads off.

 

Years later he comes up to me and says- I'm clean and part of my 8th step I'm supposed to make amends. Yakkety, yakkity. Tries to manipulate me, play me.

 

I'm in the program too so I know all about that. I take my amends and he wants to be friends again.

 

I told him that the program says that you have to make amends. It doesn't say that I have to forgive & forget. The last time I saw you I was looking down the barrel of a gun. If I never see you again, it'll be too f-ing soon.

 

Least you think that I'm a heartless bastard, if he had made one wrong move that night, one of us would have ended up dead. I won't willing allow someone that done that anywhere near me.

[Sir Galahad]

Wow. I can't say I blame you. A lot of bleeding hearts will tell you to forgive him, but that's gotta be near on impossible to do.

Your a very lucky guy getting out of that in one piece.

[James_Freestone]

Wow. I can't say I blame you. A lot of bleeding hearts will tell you to forgive him, but that's gotta be near on impossible to do.

Your a very lucky guy getting out of that in one piece.

 

A lot of bleeding hearts need to learn to live their own lives. I don't understand the need people have to constantly push their opinions on other people. We all have our own lives. Unless someone asks you, then you shouldn't press yours on them.

 

Rant Over.

[KJames]

Some years ago I was robbed at gunpoint by a crack head. Not just any crackhead- it was one that I knew.

 

I knew him before he was crazy for the crack. Nice guy. I met him at a party and we even slept together a few times.

 

Several years later I'm handing over my cash to him while staring down the barrel of a stolen gun.

 

He gets twenty bucks or so and heads off.

 

Years later he comes up to me and says- I'm clean and part of my 8th step I'm supposed to make amends. Yakkety, yakkity. Tries to manipulate me, play me.

 

I'm in the program too so I know all about that. I take my amends and he wants to be friends again.

 

I told him that the program says that you have to make amends. It doesn't say that I have to forgive & forget. The last time I saw you I was looking down the barrel of a gun. If I never see you again, it'll be too f-ing soon.

 

Least you think that I'm a heartless bastard, if he had made one wrong move that night, one of us would have ended up dead. I won't willing allow someone that done that anywhere near me.

 

That should also be a lesson to the crackheads--as if they'd listen--that if you're going to rob someone to keep up your habit, you better damn sure rob someone you DON'T know--because the one's you DO know will never forgive you for putting your habit over their life, friend or not.

[Dion]

I don't forgive. I may forget but I don't forgive.

 

On the other hand, I don't dwell on it either. I simply move on.

 

I have a relative who single-handedly gave me three of my worst phobias. (This same person posts on an Internet forum about how they will 'rid the world' of my 'useless flesh' the next time they lay eyes on me. In detail.) My more immediate family cast me out when they discovered my 'orientation'.

 

From time to time I cross paths with the people that physically abused me during my school years (all 12 of them). Occasionally I get emails telling me I should do the world a favor and remove myself from it.

 

I may back away for a while but eventually I move on. The only lasting effect is selective deafness whenever someone tells me "I'm sorry."

Edited April 1, 2009 by Dion

[Sir Galahad]

A lot of bleeding hearts need to learn to live their own lives. I don't understand the need people have to constantly push their opinions on other people. We all have our own lives. Unless someone asks you, then you shouldn't press yours on them.

 

Rant Over.

Indeed, but sometimes people can't help themselves. It's when they start coming out with; "God would want you to forgive them", then my blood starts to boil! I have an Aunt that does exactly that, & really have to bite my tongue to stop my mouth from sounding off. She is over 90 & quite frail after all, but anyone else is fair game for the icy stare & the occasional rant! lol

Besides, being an atheist, the whole god thing is kinda lost on me!

But yeah, I agree with you, people should keep those kind of opinions to themselves useless asked.

[AFriendlyFace]

And that's just what I did with this person--the possibility of salvaging a friendship with him was my motivation--he was, interestingly enough, the only person from High School I found that I sincerely wanted a friendship with--even after all these years.

Did you mention that to him? I bet it would have made him feel good

 

Ever heard of the nickelback song:

Cool song, I really like Nickelback, especially that one

 

 

There is one thing that I don't think has yet been specifically stated, though it has been alluded to in regard to the situation depending on the seriousness of the offence: some things are just totally, absolutely unforgivable. This is not just because I would have an inability to forgive but also because I don't believe that some things should ever be forgiven.

 

Forgiving someone who accidentally steps on my toe is so effortless that it happens without thought. Forgiving someone who murdered a person I love would be impossible for me, and I'd never even consider wanting to forgive them.

I can definitely see where you're coming from, Kit. Forgiveness is a value I hold in much higher esteem for my own life than most other values one can think of. I've often asked myself that sort of question. I'm against the death penalty, and I can confidently say that I still don't think that would change if someone did kill someone I loved. Having thought it over carefully, I can also say that I would want to forgive them. I'm not sure it would be possible, and of course I can't really know how I'd feel unless I was placed in that situation (and hopefully I won't be!), but I do think I'd want to forgive them. That isn't to say I'd want them in my life at all, that would probably be far too painful, but I'd certainly want to let go of the anger and resentment. Again, I don't know that it would be possible, but I would want to try.

 

Also between the two extreme examples, there are offences that I could only consider forgiving after the offender has been severely and adequately punished and then shown genuine regret.

Again, this is just my personal take on the matter:

 

Emotionally I can very much see the appeal in vengeance. I think that's a very natural, normal human reaction. You hurt me, I want you to get hurt too. However, intellectually and morally I don't see much value in vengeance or punishment. I think the only morally defensible purpose for punishment (again this is just my thoughts and feelings on the matter) should be strictly rehabilitative. If the punishment is truly going to make the person change their ways, or if it would act as a deterrent, then I'm okay with punishment. However, very often this isn't the actual result of punishment. Very often it doesn't help, if anything it makes the person more angry and hurt and more likely to re-offend in some way, or in the case of the prison system very often it puts them into contact with other criminals and turns low-level offenders into high-level offenders. Intellectually I don't think this is beneficial. Morally, I'm also against hurting someone in anyway simply for the sake of it. I guess it simply goes back to the "two rights don't make a wrong thing."

 

So for rehabilitation I'm fine with punishment, for the concept of "justice" or "fairness" I am not. I'm only behind punishment for those rehabilitative or preventative qualities it might have. If it clearly doesn't have those qualities, or not to a very effective degree, then I'm against it. The only exception is a scenario in which someone is an inveterate danger and cannot change. I still don't think punishment should be done for "justice" per se, but I think the person should be locked away permanently simply to remove them from others and the possibility to do more damage.

 

Anyway, I am not trying to impose my moral beliefs on anyone else, nor am I saying they are "the way to go" in these matters. I'm just expressing my feelings and thoughts on the matter.

 

 

 

Some years ago I was robbed at gunpoint by a crack head. Not just any crackhead- it was one that I knew.

 

I knew him before he was crazy for the crack. Nice guy. I met him at a party and we even slept together a few times.

 

Several years later I'm handing over my cash to him while staring down the barrel of a stolen gun.

 

He gets twenty bucks or so and heads off.

 

Years later he comes up to me and says- I'm clean and part of my 8th step I'm supposed to make amends. Yakkety, yakkity. Tries to manipulate me, play me.

 

I'm in the program too so I know all about that. I take my amends and he wants to be friends again.

 

I told him that the program says that you have to make amends. It doesn't say that I have to forgive & forget. The last time I saw you I was looking down the barrel of a gun. If I never see you again, it'll be too f-ing soon.

 

Least you think that I'm a heartless bastard, if he had made one wrong move that night, one of us would have ended up dead. I won't willing allow someone that done that anywhere near me.

Oh James, how terrible! I'm so sorry

 

I think I would probably have made a similar choice. I would have accepted the person's amends and wished them well in their road to recovery, but unless I felt quite strongly that the person had changed, I wouldn't have wanted them to occupy any position in my life either.

 

I don't forgive. I may forget but I don't forgive.

 

On the other hand, I don't dwell on it either. I simply move on.

 

I have a relative who single-handedly gave me three of my worst phobias. (This same person posts on an Internet forum about how they will 'rid the world' of my 'useless flesh' the next time they lay eyes on me. In detail.) My more immediate family cast me out when they discovered my 'orientation'.

 

From time to time I cross paths with the people that physically abused me during my school years (all 12 of them). Occasionally I get emails telling me I should do the world a favor and remove myself from it.

 

I may back away for a while but eventually I move on. The only lasting effect is selective deafness whenever someone tells me "I'm sorry."

 

Oh Dion! That's so terrible too You poor thing

 

I hope you're able to find a way to deal with those people that is effective and reduces the pain and discomfort they've caused

 

I think moving on is a good solution

 

 

A lot of bleeding hearts need to learn to live their own lives. I don't understand the need people have to constantly push their opinions on other people. We all have our own lives. Unless someone asks you, then you shouldn't press yours on them.

 

Rant Over.

 

I do hope I've properly expressed that I'm not trying to impose my way of thinking on anyone else. I do feel like this is a suitable time to mention my feelings, thoughts, and values on this issue since we're discussing them, but I certainly do try to avoid imposing my beliefs on other people in everyday life, especially when they're going through a painful time.

 

 

 

Anyway take care all and have a great day

-Kevin