Mac

Not incest. Not in this case. Rich Crampton and the Hayes wife are not related to each other, not at all. Instead, this phenomenon is adultery. Making cuckoo babies in nest(s). Rich has his wife, and still he made a daughter with the Hayes wife. The Hayes wife has husband of her own, the jailbird guy Hayes. Still she, at the time of husband's incarceration, made a daughter with Rich Crampton. Me. I am of the cruel opinion that the SURNAME of all cuckoo babies should be their biological mother's maiden surname, in order not to create false impressions about the origin of the baby. We need draconian legislation on product origin of human individuals. Stop the sluts' fatal influences to information reliability. This thing, pushing stepchildren to the name (and heritage) of the official husband, has been going on too long now. Too long, at least as many centuries as there has existed surnames i.e hereditary family names.

If You decide to take the idea I proposed, then You are in need of seeing what sorts of 'typical' descent lines You will face. Here is link to an example. This is a well-researched family, because they were so well-known through 1700s-1800s, being the 'premier title' in their home country's peerage, and daughters marrying only to other well-followed families (and therefore their descendants are also pretty exhaustively known and listed). This a an example of demography of (highly noble) families, a narrow case. Moreover I chose this because this actually is a somewhat narrow lineage: a couple of times the male-line lineage verged on brink of the extinction, and ultimately the narrow male line went extinct in the 1930s. Quite a many other examples produce a much wider list of descendants. This is narrow, chosen for Your needs... Chronologically, this is of same extent in time as is the Fürst von Schulenberg, = from a founder ancestor adult already by year 1700, up to the 1950s. https://www.genealogics.org/descendtext.php?personID=I00186880&tree=LEO&display=block&generations=8 (I do not know a direct email to you. Possibly this would have been even nicer help if sent by email... But, now this is here, for several people to look at.)

just to mention some history: 1) when the lineage from King Christoffer II of Denmark to King Christoffer III of Sweden, Norway and Denmark, 6 generations. died out totally in January 1448, this occurrence caused all sorts of havoc in Scandinavian kingdoms. Firstly, the ongoing dearth of heirs was observed often, during those centuries. This dearth of heirs weakened the Kalmar union of these countries. An enterprising Swedish gentleman, the country's High Marshal and an important castellan, Karl Knutson, gathered his several hundreds of warriors and in spring of 1448 travelled to the Meetingplace of Mora where in the election of new King, his troops were sufficiently feared and almost unanimously those electors present, elected Karl as new King. But his story then is relatively sad. No real royal blood in his veins, his enemies and those who envied, had joys of spurning his rule. Karl produced fabricated genealogies and false propaganda trying to claim remote royal roots (everybody knew that he had no recent royal root.) It seems to be inadvisable to take over Kingship if one is not sufficiently royal (and entitled) by known, recent roots. Karl was twice exiled, and only in his third time of holding royal power, he died as King. Karl however also invaded Norway, where half of tht ciuntry made him King, in opposition to Danish candidate. This turned out to be untenable for Karl, so he retreated and dozens of his Norwegian noble supporters had to leave their properties and flee to Sweden (quite many Swedish noble families strted to have Norwegian-background brides strting from 1450). None of Karl's ever rose to the Swedish throne, until in 1974 the current King ascended, on basis of totally other dynastical right, but being son of his mother HRH princess Sibylla of Albany, is directly descended from King Karl Knutson whose aristocratic descendants (such as, countess Anna Oxenstierna in the 1600s) had meanwhile married into some suitable western European sovereign-princely families whose daughters then married into some other royalty than Sweden itself. Only when Karl Knutson's descendant was a royal, was such a person permitted to marry into Swedish RF. (In my opinion, this is because the Swedish RF, the Bernadotte, are originally such upstarts that their dynasty felt over 150 years that they cannot marry any other than royals. To marry from lower titles, would damage their effort to look like proper royals.) Denmark did the 1448 thing in a more dignified and sustainable and stable way: they offered the throne to a Duke (Adolphus of Slesvig) who descended directly from Regitze, a sister of King Christoffer II (over 150 years earlier) and, on request made by the said Duke (a childless guy), elected the sister's son of the Duke, a young Count [afterwards known as King Christiern I] who also, of course, descended directly from Regitze the said sister of King Christoffer II. Afterwards, all the monarchs of Denmark are direct descendants of the King Christiern I (who also won the power in Norway, since 1449/1450). I would say that the extinction of a long family lineage is a phenomenon that tends to cause havoc. 2) in the Toron case, 1100s to 1350s, actually preservation of the medieval sources is a bit hazy and somewhat fragile. Therefore, there could have been also other heirs, sidelines. Or not. do not know for absolute. In the (late? 1200s), they lost their Lordship on the mainland, and the last generations of Thoron lineage lived in Cyprus island (they purchased some property there, to live on). Last member of the family, a daughter, married a young king of Cyprus, but did not procreate. Husband the king married anew. Still, such war-afflicted longtime situations, crusader kingdom, is a plausible environment of the lineage being forced to be narrow. Because sons of the lineage tended to meet untimely, violent deaths, in hands of their beloved neighbors, the muslims (Arabs) . The Paestine oif those centuries was somewhat unruly. And there existed certain deep polarization. Brings to mind that a survival of today Israeli family lineages is not fully a safe or certain phenomenon. Could assess that the locational choice of their life is so-calledly challenging... But, that's their choice. I would never personally want to travel to Israel....

clarification: only a couple cases out of THOUSANDS of lineages die totally out at a spot when there has already been 5 or 6 generations.

If the lineage is very narrow, it may die out totally. Three or four generations of a narrow lineage may die out, although usually nit dies not die out. Lincoln's lineage is obviously a narrow one. Only one CHILD to be adult and procreate. I hazard a guess that the last survivor of Lincoln lineage is his great-grandchild, or even as short lineage as a grandchild. Yes, a narrow lineage of one great-grandchild or one grandchild may die out. But 300 years is a different matter. There is bound to be 7-11 generations. Such does not die out. destructive cataclysms do not happen - because they are generally in different places, etc differences. If a lineage that started 300 years ago, is going to die out totally, then in all likelihood it had died out already 200 years ago, or so. This is stochastics and experiential knowledge. I have researched, using well-known materials, well-known families, for the point of finding long lineages to finally die totally out. Ang guess what happens in the research: only a couple of THOUSANDS of lineages die totally out at a spot when there has already been 5 or 6 generations. The major pequisite is that such a lineage is narrow: not any siblings both to have children, only one of siblings has. And in most generations, only one person lives to adulthood. Examples of these extinct lineages from my research: 1) lineage from King Christoffer II of Denmark to King Christoffer III of Sweden, Norway and Denmark. 6 generations. died out - except a few bastards born to them,, do have descendats to today. In other words: legitimate lineage extinguished in its 6th generation. 2) in the very war-afflicted crusader kingdom of Jerusalem, the lineage of lords of Thoron, from mid-1100s to mid-1300s. Sons of the lineage tended to meet untimely, violent deaths. Usually, this lineage survived through their sisters. These examples are total extinction, including all known females. These are very rare. Generally, if a lineage does not die out in a few generations of narrow lineage, rather it then widens - soon we see a proliferation grandchildren.... And, to those who do not understand that descent is able to continue through females, please do not say anything. Your efforts, on that ground, will not be accepted - you merely waste breath/effort. I do not mean here the much-easier dying out of unbroken male lines, i.e from father to son in all generations.

"no heirs", if it means no direct descendants of the earliest Fürst, is an impossibility now. Sorry to say this. But it is so. Human beings procreate. A family that has survived this many centuries (300 years) is bound to have descendants. I must underline that in three hundred years, there is not enough of plagues, other diseases, and constant wars, to kill every daughter and her every descendant, before someones of them have procreated progeny where someones survive. More likely, a family who were alive in the year 1700, has now something like 10 000 or at least 1000 direct descendants today. (a proof, qed: The succession-eligible descendants, i.e heirs of the 'body' of Electress Sophia of Hanover, currently number at least 5000 living persons, see the documentation on who are today eligible to succeed to the throne of the United Kingdom, under the provisions of the Act of Settlement of 1701). You might mean that there is NO male-line males surviving in the Schulenberg family's (agnatic) lineage. The current Edition of the Genealogische Handbuch des deutschen Adels might well say that Kris and Klaus are the only living male members of this noble lineage. (And, that all other male-lines have, long ago, ceased to procreate male children). It is certain that often, male branches of a family (or other) have been so-calledly "daughtering out". But this "no male-line males" is a totally different thing than "no heirs". See the wording "daughters out" in the previous paragraph. At least some of those daughters have left descendants. Adoption (or other device) can make an accepted heir, turning such from a descendant that descends through a daughter of the Schulenberg lineage. I believe Kris is (outwardly) in position to do the adoption. This is a Holy Roman title. There exists such a construct, called "semi-salic" succession, as to Holy Roman titles. And, there are precedents. The fürstliche lineage of the Princes of Putbus (it was located on the Rügen island) has been continued, now for several times, in a way that a daughter of the Putbus lineage succeeds as Princess of Putbus, and her son(s) then are permitted to succeed her in the title "Fürst zu Putbus", their son(s) etc succeeding in turn. The most recent of these took place in mid-1900s (there was no Monarch reigning to authorize the arrangement) and simply the Deutscher Adelsrechtsausschuss (Nobility Commission of Germany) decided to accept the arrangement. Thus, for example the Genealogische Handbuch des deutschen Adels (GHdA), a publication series of the best-recognized nobility's association (more or less corresponding to the old "Almanach de Gotha"), publishes such families as 'legitimate' nobility in the family genealogies there. The Putbus case and some others, offer precedents how it is done.

About Kris' legacy for the future: my vision is that Kris would do efforts to restore the princely Schulenberg lineage. To be again consisting of true heirs of its ancient blood. RESTORE. The old Schulenberg lineage is fully certain to have direct descendants, yet. Of course. It is sheer impossibility to destroy ALL descendants of princes who lived in around 1700. There are always heirs of blood of such persons. Possibly not of unbroken male line (though, even such could yet exist). However, descendants through daughters of the princely lineage are sure to survive. Possbly there are no descendants of those family members who were in 1930s the immediate family of the then Prince. But that does not kill the more distant descendants. I foresee a good rapport with one or a few nice genealogists for Kris to gather help from. This would be nice to see in the story's future chapters Kris, as gay, is easy to refrain from begetting children of his own. So, Kris could utilize the tool of doing adoption, to effectuate the restoration.

Jays is doubly a direct descendant of the Crampton. So, Jays does not need to point out his bio father! Jays is son of Beatrice, herself daughter of Billy, whose mother is Tonto née Crampton whose father is the late and lamented Alexander Crampton of blessed memory*. And this is openly known and public and documented. Lineage. Jays has a Crampton as a great-grandparent and a male Crampton as great-great-grandfather. So, what happens with Jays' surname? (* I have understood that "of blessed memory" is used about persons that many survivors are actually happier that the persons are no longer alive. The really loved dead ones are called "loved", a term which is somehow opposite to "of blessed memory")

weellll, in the 1962 story Tonto mentioned her daughter-in-law as slut. (Admittedly, it was in situation when Tonto had heard that Billy is not the biological father of Janice's younger son)

Yes. My picture of white trash is that they cannot keep their pants on. That they waste their money, sometimes faster than it comes in. That they procreate relatively young. Children are usually merely some 20 years younger than their parents, IN AVERAGE. That their matrimonies crumble often. That their children grow up in households of their stepfathers. That they do not acquire education. Or, if they start education, sooner or later they drop out, without degree.

you have made Billy to procreate very young. Resembling white trash. Billy is of same age (same birthyear) as JP, which is 1936. Billy's son Nick was born in 1956 or 1957. Billy was 19 or 20 years old. (Unlikely to have turned 21 yet). Billy fucked Janice to be pregnant when Billy was 18 or 19. (Quite likely, pregnancy started and only after the conception, they had wedding.) Therefore is inevitable that Janice was max one year younger than Billy.

Somewhat implausible. Janice was not from Claremont, nor known to Tonto the mother-in-law before young Billy's acquaintance (possibly the wedding...). Janice was a young woman (18 yo) somewhere at the spot when young Billy, high school graduate (18 or 19 yo) starts his rookie navy service at some camp or naval station. Likely Janice was not a local bartender or bar slut. Instead Janice plausibly was naval station's high school senior, or something like that. No full orphan girl would be permitted to live in the naval station housing. (Is Janice's mother a slut or a faithful wife?) The plausible explanation is the one where Janice lives with her parents, father (or stepfather) is a navy man, and thus Janice is in the year 1955 accessible to the rookie Billy. The housing could be on basis of Janice's stepfather if Janice's mother is a slut like Janice is and Bitty is and Will is. A stepfather whom Janice's mother had snatched after some years of dissolute life... On the other hand, if Janice's mother is not a slut, then she might still in 1955 live in marriage with Janice's father, who in this case is a naval officer. (Janice's mother may well be not a slut, because of her descendants, Nick and Brad and JJ are not that much slutlike.)

JJ could actually easily change legally his surname to Crampton. Although the law does not support JJ's taking the surname of his secret father, JJ has actually two Crampton roots and one of them is above reproach. This is the reason why JJ is entitled to the Crampton surname. JJ's mother Bitty's father Billy is son of Gail (Tonto) Schluter née Crampton, herself daughter of Alexander Crampton. JJ has full right to the surname of his grandfather's grandfather's surname.

This kind of family circle, with its so many cuckoo babies. reminds me that the mother's birth surname actually should be the norm. The traditional presumption of father's surname to children of marriage, is not tenable, really. The patriarchal tradition of surnames is displaying its deep unsuitability! Patriarchs should actually be upset, and earthquaking in their graves, with all these outcomes. Patriarchs should have forbidden the use of THEIR surnames, altogether.

and: Billy himself said about Janice: “She's really terrific. She just had a momentary lapse in judgment. It's not easy being a Navy wife. But I think this has been like a purging experience for...” JP said to Billy about the cuckoo baby Bradley, his newly-designated godson: “Your son is adorable. Lucky him. At least he won't be ugly like you” (JP joked).

Such an heir is not what I planned here My idea is to make the 2006 birth of Barron Trump and the existence of his both parents and their ridiculous marriage (continuing even today) to be what it deserves to be regarded as.

"Janice, .. she didn’t do as well with the rest of our family. She was kind of flighty, and sometimes not the most stable and reliable person in the world."

Ha. The saga's early intro tells "The Schluters were the epitome of ‘old money’ in Claremont. Barry Schluter was a descendant of one of the city founders, served as the local judge, and owned a shitload of land in and around the city. The Schluters had a long history of serving in the military and in local government." Possibly inevitable that sons of such a family do lapse into uselessness, or whatnot. Aristocracy might be hereditary, but real talent are not that much inevitable to inherit. This makes me to have a useful idea: It is now the duty of Stefan to sire a son to continue this really aristocratic lineage. Stefan, the old homo, now that in 2004 he is about 60 years old, needs to contract a trophy beauty to produce him a son. The son needs to be born in 2005. They must baptize the boy as "Barron Schluter". Stef does not really need to touch the contracted trophy at all, because the seminal operation is to be made by a spoonlike instrument, the semen there chosen to produce a boy. Of course Stef marries the pregnant trophy of his, and soon after the birth, they divorce. This very cute story, of course, is intended to make the Melania - Donald operation a laughingstock. And to caricature the serial Trumpist divorces and trophies.

the damnable Alexandra Carmichael was no mother of Brad nor grandmother of Will. How on the earth Alexandra ever got rich? Now that I think more about this family I arrive at conclusion that Janice was a daughter (or stepdaughter) of a middling officer with family living in the naval station where Billy started. The 18-yo Janice obviously was one of those girls who do not keep their clothes on when a young man of 19 years is eager to get into her pants. In this Janice resembles her grandson Will a lot. Also Will is sexually prematuredly willing and likes young men eager to get into his pants. The difference between grandson Will and grandmother Janice is that Will does not get pregnant. Whereas Janice, in her mid-1950s environment, had to marry when pregnant (with Nick) and was not able (or willing) to abort.

Okay, it is this why Billy had to been of same age as JP. And Billy deceased at age of 26. Leaving a widow (Janice, née WHAT) and two biological children and one young stepson. Still, a rank-and-file submariner who started family at 19, tastes to me like a white trash. Although Billy was not a badly-dressing salesman... (whose life would have been likely spared to old age). How could Tonto ever have permitted such? How could the good motivator, JP, have allowed his foster cousin Billy to do that kind of lowly life, when there would have been available: college & career as military officer & life as small-town Claremont magnate & activities as public official and community organizer & various chairmanships... Billy's life seems a somewhat analogy of a Trumpian dumb who hates school... and ends up as a deplorable. Will, an avid student, is certainly not any sort of descendant of Billy Schluter. Brings me to assess whether Tonto's husband actually was a poor choice: not any good genes to continue. Both sons just were soldiers. And died young. Did not create careers nor passed any higher education. Schluter were not rich, but merely parasite of Tonto's wealth ? Was Barry a mere drone, sort of white trash in reality? Fortunately, JJ is a direct descendant of the late Tonto. Biologically. By the way, biologically Billy and JP are not related. They were merely fostered as social cousins. JP was not a biological nephew of Tonto Schluter née Crampton. For the simple reason of Marie Mrs Crampton bringing JP as Hendrickson cuckoo into her husband's Crampton nest.

Because Billy Schluter was born in 1936, biologically he could be yet fully alive. Mere 67 years old. Has Billy Schluter already died? When? Where? Or, is he alive and kicking. Possibly at Claremont? I think the chronology would ease somewhat if Billy Schluter was born in the early years of 1930s. (And had gone through college, before siring children -Nick- and before marrying Janice.) However, it might now be impossible to revise the birth year... Why did Billy sire his first child already at 19 ? and why did he marry at 19 or 20 ? Such gives an impression of being white trash. Not suitable social class context for Billy. If the family behaved like white trash, then no wonder that Bitty became an addict. Just like JD Vance's mother. --- One of the happy outcomes in this Crampton-Schluter family circle is: because of unfaithful conceptions of several children in all generations, they actually are not that much doing incest. The official family tree may give a display of plenty of incestuous sex. But, these persons usually are not biologically related, being usually only related by fostering. JP is not at all biologically related with Stefan. Will is not at all biologically related with his cousin John, nor with his cousine Marie the starfish.

surely, Will's paternal grandmother was the late Janice. Who was once an affaire of Mr Carmichael. The official Mrs Carmichael was the one who suffered in that situation - and surely was not Brad's mother. I have tried to find out what was Janice's background, for example her maiden name and where Janice grew up. (How Billy S found Janice to marry her?) I have not found any information about such matters. Probably Janice was a middle-class Yankee girl from a somewhat prosperous middle-class American family and born in late 1930s. Mother a housewife and father a badly-dressed salesman resembling Al Bundy. In the 1950s USA was a boring (Eisenhowerian) country, building up a vast network of 'modern' highways so Ford automobiles of middle-class American salesmen had infrastructure to drive from one motel to another. That was the young Janice's world. Possibly Janice's father was one of those roving salesmen, and Billy Schluter the bridegroom of Janice, was in process of being a young salesman driving A CAR, too.

Two male biological cousins who have lived as brothers all their young lives. They just better to reconcile themselves to the reality. They are not the first ever cousins in the world history who have lived in brother-like circumstances.

children tend to be totally internalizing the spoken context they live in, and children tend to be a bit dumb (= ignorant). For example, teenagers (who are no longer fully childish) then see things very black and white, until getting adults they see variety of greys. An uncle who is a family friend since the stone ages (having known even the grandparents and possibly some great-grandparent, too), do have a fuller picture of path-dependent things... And occasionally, happen to blurb some fact to a child who then starts to get curious about the real family history and about his (her) true parentage.

Seeing that Bitty was Jim Crampton's first cousin's daughter, and not really his niece, it is not called incest.