B1ue

In reverse order, he's not actually a bitch to everyone around him. His immediate family, yes, and Michael, but to everyone else he's still charming and sanguine. And because he isn't willing to cut the members of his family any slack, they are treating him exactly as he's treating them. So, I'd say he is in fact suffering consequences. Brad used to be his best friend, Darius his role model, Robbie and JJ his buds. None now would spit on him if he was on fire. Edit: Matt he never really had a warm relationship, so there's no big loss there, but it does cut down on his potential allies. The drugs, sex, alcohol, and even the fake ID, of course he does not suffer consequences for partaking in these things. According to the morality he has grown up with, none of these things are big deals. Or any kind of deal whatsoever. In particular the sex, Will grew up with Stef and Cody in his life. Of course he doesn't care about being promiscuous, and nor does anyone else, except JJ. He was grounded for the destruction of property, and drugging Robbie, wasn't he? That's a mild punishment by anyone's standards, but it's the one his parents decided on, so, meh. He talks to his parents like he doesn't trust them and thinks they are actively trying to hurt him (emotionally at the very least), but he isn't afraid to be honest with them. It's odd, yes, but I've met people that shared a similar dichotomy. It's one way that he is acting like a typical 14 year old, really. Not that I'd recommend it as a course of action, but I've met fourteen-year-olds that raised kids. My maternal grandmother, and several of my great-aunts, in fact. It wasn't common even then, but not exactly unheard of for the time. The concept of teenage years was not as widespread as it is now, before the first half of the twentieth century. My parent's generation doesn't have parents quite that young, but a couple of my aunts had kids, and marriages, at 16. As do a couple of my cousins, but naturally the circumstances were quite different, and there were no resultant marriages. Heck, my grandfather was in the Navy during World War 2. He was 15 in 1942, the year he enlisted.

Not really, no. Despite my arguments that he can handle it, which I think he can, I also think he's not making the correct choice here. Simply moving out to Claire's or JP's would accomplish nearly all of his goals, and not have the emotional bodyslam that emancipation would entail. There's never going to be coming back from Will telling Brad he does not trust him. Nor from him putting actions to those words. They'll probably reconcile eventually, in a couple years when Will is a proper, tradiitonal adult, but this will always be between them. And between Darius, JJ, and Will. In essence, I support Will's logic, but not his conclusions.

Oh, fuck THAT. I, apparently, have quite a bit more experience here than you do, The state will try, but it cannot enforce that kind of situation without some measure of consent on the part of a child. I actually have listened to CPS workers that have tried to enforce that. I've literally seen them try, in my own family. So what if the state tells me I have to live with my parents. They have to find me first. If I cut myself, bleed myself enough times, bash my head against the wall enough times, they'll stop, because stopping me is costing more than letting me go. Yes there are legal, real consequences attached to my actions. What you seem to not be considering is that sometimes, I wouldn't care. That I'd knowlingly, WILLFULLY, take those consequences rather than return to a situation I cannot live with. So what if I get thrown in juvie, or rehab, or foster care? Sometimes that's not worse, and yes, I do know exactly what all three places are like. I also know what the alternatives sometimes are.

That is correct. However, it is correct only to the point that a child is willing to let their parent have that power, as it is with any other relationship. Will is not willing, and IS willing to do something about it. The law might be against him, usually. But if you're willing to take the consequences attached to the actions, the law becomes mighty flexible. As Will, and Brad, are discovering. Look, this is what it boils down to. In every way except legally, Will is no longer a child. He doesn't act like one, doens't look like one, doesn't see himself as one. He may not make the best decisions all the time, but I've never met anyone that did. He may have more growing up to do, but I haven't met anyone that didn't. He has proven capable of handling situations that would crumple many adults, and he's still resiliant enough to decide, on his own, what is and is not right. Treating him like he's a child is worse than useless, because it's forcing Will to prove in tangible ways that he is not a child.

None of these were actually bad decisions, of course. Or, rather, I don't see good ones that were available to Brad. Though, since you mention it, I'm curious why Pat being accused of having sex with a previous client "forces" Brad to complete the shitcanning his career, but Mike gets to walk away when he knows the...person was taking nude photos of his sons. Perhaps it was the public aspect of it, that is, Pat was accused in a public manner that Brad was forced to take official notice of, but Mike was sly enough to not be caught by anyone outside the family? And while a later chapter disproved my question if JJ knew what Mike was doing (or proved JJ is a slicker actor than we've all been giving him credit for), how did Jeanine know to go to him for the pictures? Plausably, Mike may have just reported the entangment and offered the photographs as proof, and Jeanine didn't think through the implications, but was that it? Anyways, for my mileage, Brad's bad decision has been that he hasn't included anyone else in his decision making when they involved other people. Sidelining Stef, Claire, and JP is playing with fire, since they're all willing and able to interfere directly with his life, Stef especially, should he piss them off. But not involving Will, lying to WIll after Will had already run away from home once was just stupid. People have argued that Brad, as his father, has the right to make decisions that affect Will's life. The problem is that, like with any child, that only works as long as the child in question is willing to let the parent get away with it. Will already proved he wasn't so willing. And while I do think Will is making a mistake with this step, I do see why he is making it. Though instead of a "mountain" of bad decisions, I just see one: forcing Will to interact with Jeanine as her son. That one is enough. While you probably have a point, a good one, regarding Matt's latent attraction to Brad tilting him towards favoring their side, I think it's more that Matt has little invested in Will, and instinctively respects parental authority to a degree that none of the other characters do.

Generalities don't matter. They don't matter in real life, as you can't base how you interact with someone based on a statistical analysis (though I understand the state has to try, and don't mind it there), and they really don't matter in literature where every detail of the entire universe is what ever the author pleases it to be. It's especially true for literature that case-by-case judgements have to be created. Does anyone honestly think that WIll, as written, is going to feel exploited in a couple years? It's possible, that autthorial whim might sway that way, but I rather don't think it's going to be the case. And even if it does, it was Will's call to make that mistake that caused him to feel exploited. Recognizing those pitfalls are a part of growing up, and at no point have I argued that he's done growing up. Mature for his age, yes. In my opinion, he now has the mental and emotional maturity to go along with his body, though I wouldn't say he's much past where I, for instance, was at 17.

To answer this point, I was not as mature my freshman year of high school as my senior. I certainly was as mature, and did not really change as a person, from the time where I was about 17 to about 26, and that's kind of a stretch to say I really changed at about that point. Partly because what you mention as what you needed to be completely self-reliant about, assignments, getting to class, etc, I can't remember a time I wasn't taking care of arrangements for all of that on my own. Kindergarten I assume I wasn't, 1st and 2nd grade I was in an afterschool program, but by 3rd I was a latchkey kid that knew better than to ask my parents for extra stuff like sports or to review my homework. Living away from my parents and family frankly did not bother me in the slightest, it just was not the big deal that it was for some of my peers. In that regard, and with a couple experiences where I was able to gauge my relative emotional reaction compared to other teenagers my age and older, I was able to handle that aspect better at 14 than some did at 18. I can think of several people that were as mature as freshmen in highschool that they were by the time they graduated, and not always to their discredit do I say that. As you said, they were outliers, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. And since the sample size of people I can honestly say I knew well enough during over the course of that time span to make that kind of evaluation is quite small, I can only assume 99.9% is a bit pessimistic. They are also mostly female, so I would guess the relatively earlier puberty has much to do with it. I was a late bloomer myself, and was blissfully ignorant of my sexuality at 14. That also might be part of what's driving Will, he's dealing with his sexuality at an age when many guys are barely figuring out masturbation. He's not always dealing well, you brought up the pole dancing incident for example, but he seems to learn from his mistakes when he realizes they were mistakes. And, now that I think of that specific instance, I'm having a difficult time classifying it as all that bad. What, exactly, was the downside to doing this? So he proved he was sexy, to himself and others. Nothing wrong with that. Stef got an eyefull. Not intended, but not really a big deal. It didn't leak back to his school back home, no one is labeling him a slut because of that. Aside from the damage to his relationship with Brad, when quite honestly Brad shouldn't get the final say on what Will does with his body at any age (and if you want to argue with that, try telling someone like Wade that a father always knows best), no real harm was done. It could have been, yes, but any action Will takes that indulges in his own sexuality carries that burden. He's sexy, and like being sexy. People, including his parents, are going to have problems with that. It's one of the themes of the whole story, really. There are limits to how much paternal/parental authority being a parent automaticly grants you. Brad, Robbie, Jeanine, the Danfeilds, Stef and JP are all learning this. JP and Brad I find especially interesting, because Brad is taking the same control over his own life and family from his father that he's trying to stop Will from grabbing. And just like I find myself siding with Will, to a certain extent I also side with Brad. JP, Stef, and Claire might not like it, but Brad and Robbie (with, ideally Jeanine, WIll, and JJ getting a say) get to make those calls, not them.

Centex, I find myself agreeing with basicaly everything you said, although Will is one of my favorite charcters, right up there with Claire. I do wonder why the question of maturity keeps coming up. Is it that we're defining it differently? Because, to me, Will has already demonstrated and continues to demonstrate the maturity of at least the average eighteen-year-old. He is willing, not out of anger or spite but out of cold, and correct, calculation to stand up to his parents, say "I'm sorry you feel that way," and walk away. Don't you all remember how hard that is? To be able to set aside the willingness to follow your parent's directives and do what you know is right for yourself? Brad and Robbie seem to give Will the perfect life, but one of the themes of all of CAP is that the perfect life has some damn long strings attached, and WIll is not willing to play that part any more. I don't think he's handling this well, I don't think he's making the correct choices, but I can't help but admire his reasoning. He's not defying his parents over, say, a lover, or an unfair curfew, or overbearing pressure. Therre is a real threat to his safety and well-being, and he can no longer trust Brad or Robbie to take care of it for him. So he's doing it himself. Not only that, but he's going about it logically, learning from his previous experience, and seeing to it that not just Jeanine but Brad, Robbie, and EVERYONE ELSE will have no further hold over him.

Distracted on this point. You do know Poseidon was also the god of earthquakes and horses? More on point, there's one thing I wonder about. Is if there's something more going on in JJ's mind than what we know about? That he wants to cover it up and make it all go away is an easy enough explanation, but, I don't know. I wonder if he knew Michael was photographing him, and didn't really care. I know Jeremy and others have asserted that figure skaters repress their own sexualities, at least outwardly, and that seems to be true, but JJ knows the hypocrisy of that. Is it possible he actually encouraged Michael's interest, perhaps at first out of surprise that someone noticed him when Darius and Will were about, but then later out of his own vanity? If JJ or Pat had taken pictures of Will, and Will had been aware of it, I think Will would have thought it a turn on rather than offensive. Brad and Josh, when Brad was younger than either of them, would probably have had similar opinions.

Claire has kids of her own though. Such an arrangement would make more sense if JJ was moving into Claire's, rather than his brother. Which might work, actually. As badly as Will needs to get out his big boys pants and learn to suck up having an imperfect life, JJ needs to get the hell out of Will, Brad, and Robbie's shadow. Will is actually a positive influence in his life, but we haven't seen either one act more than distantly fond of him in quite some time. Trading Will for John might not work out so hot, as John would be much less likely to put up with his shit, he didn't put up with Will's shit when actual sex was on the line, but trading his dads in for Jack, Claire, and Matt, not to mention Tiffany, might just. And Marie needs a minion; you know she'll be the type. Actually, John might see some benefits to the situation as well. If they became friends, Will would never believe they weren't having sex, and winding him up on that topic would probably provide both boys with entertainment for years. Edit: The more I think about this, the more I like it. If nothing else, a JJ viewpoint involving a move to Claire's would introduce the other NorCal cousins through the view of someone that would see them as equals. Will would work equally well, of course, but I don't think his character would expand as well under those circumstances. Whereas JJ would suddenly go from Will and Darius's less attractive little brother to an accomplished, competitive athlete who has seen the world and will be constantly popping off to see more of it.

I've lived in both. It's different, but so is everywhere. I find it has more to do with the person's willingness to adapt to new circumstances rather than any instrinsic difference on the part of the localities. Like, if they can't handle the Bay Area after LA, then would Hawaii (which for the most part is pretty rural at the same time it is touristy), Houston (so...so hot), or Clairemont be much better?

Well, that's one mystery (JJ's sexuality, not a huge surprise after this book) cleared up; though I'm curious if there was a reason besides traveling that they were all so bitchy on the way back.

I imagine she does, actually. After Bitty's death, the logical thing for Brad and Jeanine, and possibly Robbie, to do would be to get shared court-ordered guardianship over Darius and JJ. This would be simply so they could sign school and medical forms, and ease the legalities of both boy's lives, and to erase any ambiguities that the boys should go somewhere else (doubtful in any case, with Bitty already having given up her parental rights). She may have formally adopted JJ since then, and Darius, depending on how paranoid they were about Darius's father or Nick showing up out of the woodwork and making issues. A fair number of family court judges in LA during the early nineties were pirckly conservative (to my perception), which is the only reason I hesitate to include Robbie. Even unmarried, Jeanine and Brad would probably be an easier sell, especially if they already have a child together. They'd not lie about Robbie, the social workers involved would NOT have been idiots (if overworked), but I doubt he'd be brought up, and everyone would present Jeanine and Brad as common-law husband and wife with a straight face without actually ever saying so. I have a fair bit of personal experience on this topic, due to one of my sisters being a fairly close analogue for Bitty. The only niece no one has formal custodianship over lives in an area where my mother is on first name basis with the local sherrif, most of the cops, and every single social worker and judge in the county, and that my sister would have trouble even locating on a map.

You're asking the absolute wrong person for advice on what a bitchy rich teen that wants to stand out would buy. My favorite car so far has been a pick-up truck. And not some lifted or lowered prettified dickmobile either. Mine looked exactly like it was, a never-washed rustbucket (though good running) hand-me-down that had 200000 miles on it and had tagged eight deer, innumerable rodents and avians, and one mountain lion. I miss my pickup. I will own one again one day. Not one just like it, sadly, but another. Will seems to. Care about JJ, that is. He doesn't express it in the same way that Jeanine does, but Will has no real reason to put up with JJ's bullshit. Yet he does anyways, even if they're utterly baffled by the rules the other follows. To him, that he'd eventually make a play for Evan was quite obvious and should have been assumed by JJ, and to JJ "I don't want to deal with your crap" should have meant WIll should have had the sense to go chase other boys.

I was also going to point that out when Jeremy first suggested "A mini or a European car" and you said no, but I let it go. But I will say that if JJ wants to stand out, why would he get something relatively inexpensive and easy to get like a Mini, when the entire world is available to him? His dad is so stupidly rich, and recently enough has been given crap about not paying enough attention to him, that JJ could ask for absolutely anything to be shipped to his doorstep, and between Brad and Stef they'd make it happen. No, I don't think Brad would do that. That'd touch off way too many bad memories, and would smack of exiling JJ for daring to complain. I don't think JJ is out of line here. His response, maybe, but not the anger and frustration itself. It's Will that's unintentionally causing the problems. Will would be the appropriate one to exit from the situation, and Brad would realize that just moving out without moving schools is just asking for more problems, should a move be required at all. But I don't think we're there yet. We'll have to see how things go.

Yes and no. Yeah, he's probably taking advantage of the very, very available opportunities presented, but he also seems ot have somehting to prove. With Jeff, with Tony, with Ryan, to a certain extent with Alastair. I'll withold judgment until Shane's reaction to Will's actions takes it's course. If Shane doesn't care, and Will doens't care, then alright. If Will gets pissy and moody because once again, someone he thinks is hot doesn't find him worth the drama, then I'll start to wonder.

Even if it's only their minds and doesn't involve actual sex, yeah, you're probably correct. The number of guys that follow that decision with actual action is probably a fair bit lower, though perhaps not greatly so. I also think that, like drug use, whether sex is meaningless or if that even matters is something that can't be judged from outside. What may be sad and droll to one person may be the only thing getting another through the day. What bothers me about Will is that he's defining himself by his ability to get laid. That's not in and of itself terrible, but it can lead him to hurt himself and those around him, as we're seeing. I, for perhaps the first time ever, was in total agreement with JJ this chapter. I hope Will remembers he has otehr talents, and settles down some. Or that if he doesn't, he learns to make it work for him like Stef does.

I think you miss my point. It doesn't actually matter what would happen at the real Harvard-Westlake, just the one in this story, which has already proved itself different.

There seems to be a signficant difference between the HW in that impression and the one we're being presented with in Paternity. We've already established that the principal is quite willing to bend over backwards for Will because of whose grandson he is. Yes, Will is a straight A student and I'm sure that helped. That wasn't what made the alcohol issue go away though, nor did Brad's money. There are plenty of equally wealthy people (taken as a whole, if perhaps not individually) that probably took great exception to a loose-moraled boozehound being allowed to mingle with their precious widdle angels. But this was one instance where who he knew and more importantly who he was related to did have an impact. JJ may well decide it isn't worth the trouble. But if the school is willing to let some things go for Will, why not JJ? JJ taking off to go skating would be far less disruptive, to everyone else in his class at least, than someone who brought alcohol to a school trip, and so provably is a potential bad influence. I'd have thought it was obvious Will was JJ's brother. They are flying in their grandfather's airplane, after all, and someone would be bound to ask, "Who's the hot blond kid in the back? He's too heavy to be one of us." And your question doesn't really compute for me. In my mind, the question is: what teenager wouldn't brag about having consensual sex with a hottie under any circumstance whatsoever? With the proviso that such bragging would take place in a safe place, of course, such as among other gay or gay friendly kids.

Another point to keep in mind is that Will isn't JP's only grandson at the school. I think they'd be willing to allow JJ the chance to see if he let it bring his grades down before telling him he wasn't allowed. And maybe even let them come down a bit farther than they'd allow someone else before calling him in for a talk. Edit: Also, it occurred to me later that Will may not be questioning Jeff's motives as much as I would be in his place. Does he realize he could be being played? I mean, sure, still sleep with him, but also wonder why the guy you just seriously annoyed and just the other day wouldn't spit on you if you were on fire suddenly is up for a good time. And also, did that one skater really not know he wsa there, or did he notice Shane wandering off, and plans to brag about his "accomplishment" with Will right when it would most screw with either JJ or Shane's attention? Even if they didn't give a damn, it'd still be worth a shot, right? These are a couple instances where Will's physical maturity isn't going to help him much, his dick could be getting him into situations he's not mentally old enough to handle. Again.

JP chained his students up and made them like it. Wade gives his mother a run for her money on cool-calculated revenge all out of proportion to the crime. And by his own standards, Marcel riding Brad during a moment when he clearly didn't know who he was screwing and then later spending a summer sleeping with JP probably was explosive.

I knew a couple surfers with long hair in and around 2000, but for the most part yeah, they had shorter cuts.

And it will be a gold medal, right smack in the middle of his chest. I think I'm warming to this idea.

As you keep insisting he's going to explode into debauchery as soon as his skating career ebbs, wouldn't that make him MORE likely to get a tattoo at some point, not less? We're not just talking about the next six months, after all, but into their twenties. Mind, I don't actually agree with you that he'll explode. Or, rather, I do, but because this is the kind of series where characters explode, not because his character actually needs that moment to make sense. But if he ever becomes a narrator, the squeaky-clean Disney image just isn't going to cut it, unless he's banging Shane Jackson at the same time.

Is she actually dressed up to go out? Because it looks like she's just wearing her underwear, getting ready for people to show up. Or possibly winding down after a party. I've seen outfits that look like that, of course, I do live in Cali, but the fabric seems a bit too simple to be an actual top, so I'm actually not sure. Edit: Ah, never mind. I see now that it's one garment and not two separate pieces. It actually looks fine that way. It wouldn't if her chest was bigger, but dresses like that are made for bodies like hers. It brings out her curves while allowing the eye to drift where she wants it to, but it isn't so flashy or vulgar that it draws attention away form her face. Pretty close to how I picture him. Oh, and Tim, the picture didn't work.