Santino

James: Everything you said was so spot on about how I've grown up that I got kind of emo reading it. I'm old enough to be a little jaded because of it. In my teens and twenties I had the belief that 1) marriage wasn't allowed and it was never going to happen if I wound up with a man 2) well f*** that sh** anyway, who needs it? that's for heteros, so let them be boring and unhappy (defensive contrary anger) 3) enjoy what you can get when you can get it because eventually it's going to be taken away or something will happen to ruin it. Nothing felt final or solid or guaranteed, and that's why I can never make those guaranteed HEA forever things happen when I'm writing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I find that unrealistic these days. But my mind still can't wrap around the reality of these days even if things have begun changing in some places for the better. But even then, that's still a very Western mindset. In a lot of places, being gay is still something that happens in private. It's sad that I still see some things as being idealistic when it's not just an ideal for me anymore but, as you said so poignantly, it comes from being psychologically damaged by an unforgiving society, constant shaming for being who I am by friends and family, and a violent father.

I love this.

Yea, Romeo & Juliet and even Nicholas Sparks aren't really categorized as GENRE romance since they don't have HEA or even HFN at the end. It's cool that websites like GR have subgenres, but I don't think romance imprints have a subgenre like that under romance... or do they?

Thank you so much for all your awesome responses! You know what I wonder, if we're talking about the genre that publishers use to categorize books, why can't there be an official subgenre like bittersweet (Dreamspinner Press uses that) or Dark Romance or something? Still classified as a romance on Amazon or Goodreads, but readers get a heads up about what to expect.

It is definitely a matter of the definition, and the reason those definitions matter so much in genre and publishing is because of marketing. Recently, it seems like there has been an explosion of LGBT romance in e-publishing (and even a couple picked up by Big 6s) and the debate really boiled down to what belongs in this category and what does not. This, I THINK, is a big deal because M/M authors are perceived to have a much wider reader-base than people who write gay lit (what stories seemed to be classified as if they do not fit into another specific genre such as Romance, Paranormal, Mystery, Etc. so, those love stories w/o the HEA), and some people are voicing a concern that the narrow definition is excluding other perspectives of what a romance is. Again, just to be clear, I'm mostly summarizing the debate! These aren't necessarily my opinions. I can see both sides of the debate, honestly. I have my personal feelings that Romance can and should include stories of queer people in love with endings ranging from a tentative HFN to a wrapped tight HEA (depending on what makes sense for the plot and characters) as long as no one dies or runs off with a new lover at the end, but I also see it from the marketing standpoint of "this is traditionally what readers have wanted and this is what they expect to get when they pick up a romance title."

This was actually the main point of contention in the original blog post, so I'm glad you brought it up. The "emotionally satisfying and optimistic ending" is interpreted by one side of the debate as the heroes/heroines live happily ever after with a subset of that side saying "but happy for now is okay as long as it SEEMS like they will stay together" and another small subset saying "i want my HEA wrapped up with a bow that guarantees indefinite". The other side of the debate made the claim that "emotionally satisfying and optimistic" (as defined by the Romance Writers of America") did not automatically mean traditional happily ever after with a solid promise of an indefinite future (i.e. marriage, kids, saying "i love you", moving in together, etc) because what is emotionally satisfying and optimistic to one group may not be emotionally satisfying to another. A smaller subset of this side of the debate made the claim that no HEA was needed at all and a strong love arc throughout the novel was enough. That opinion drew pretty serious and angry criticisms and traditional romance readers seemed to feel they were under attack. The debate ultimately, in my opinion, narrowed down to the question of: should the standard definition of what genre romance is be expanded so readers do not always expect that wrapped with a bow ending? AND is the expectation of a traditional HEA in LGBT romance limiting since traditional romance reader expectations have come from decades of primarily reading about M/F romance? I was in the camp of my expectations of a romance novel are that the main couple intends to work through any issues/barriers to have a strong relationship, but I found the expectation of a wrapped in a bow guarantee of till death do you part unrealistic, and that it was frustrating to me that a romance (to some readers) should not be classified a romance unless that "till death do us part" sentiment is there. Some of my reasons were that 1) that expectation excludes stories about a lot of people in the LGBT community who cannot possibly be out about their romance or proceed into the future with a carefree existence and 2) i think endings should be character driven and not prescribe to a specific formula, so why is that "bow" needed if it doesn't make sense for the story? I don't think romance has to be unrealistic to be emotionally satisfying. WHEW. I sound SO SUPER SERIOUS, but it is nice to be able to talk about this with a group who is sharing their opinions calmly. GA is the best.

Thanks for replying! I really hope others reply/respond because I want to know how a larger audience feels about the issue. Also because this community seems a lot more respectful to each other! I should add a fourth choice with "No I don't think so, but I wouldn't personally want tragic endings".... You made an awesome point there.

Recently, there has been a heated debate in the other writing community I participate in about what should and should not constitute a happily ever after in a romance novel, and whether a novel should NEED a happily ever after to be considered a romance at all. The response has been overwhelmingly "Yes, a HEA is needed for a novel to be considered a romance", but that response has largely come from an overall homogeneous audience with a very small handful of writers/readers disagreeing for varying reasons. For full disclosure, I will say the overwhelming response of "yes" has come from readers/writers who identify as females and the few responses that have said "no" have come from readers/writers who identify as queer males. I don't want to bring the women vs men argument into this particular topic because it got very unfriendly on the other board (and in social media), and I do feel like it's irrelevant in the long run because different people have different perspectives regardless of their gender. However, I bring it up because GA is MUCH more diverse as far as gender and orientation, so I'm curious as to what the results of this question would be here. Please satisfy my curiosity by answering the poll? Pretty please? What do you consider a romance when you are writing? Do romance novels need a happily ever after ending to be a true romance? 1) Yes. At the end of a romance novel, I need to know that the main characters will be together indefinitely. 2) Yes, but I am also fine with a "happy for now". No need for a life-long promise of commitment officially stated in the text. 3) No. I think a novel should still be classified as a romance as long as it contains a strong love story and romantic arc, even if the MCs have to part ways or if one of them dies.

Cia, that is really true about finding images after the fact. Especially if you have a character with seriously unique characteristics. Sometimes I'll find images for inspiration even if I don't use it for a cover, but I need a good visual reference. We did that a lot in Evenfall and the rest of ICoS, because the characters go to so many places and it's hard to get it right. @Em tumblr is dangeroussss. I get so distracted. I like the idea of Youtube mixtapes. I didn't even know you could make them. I use grooveshark a lot for music inspiration mixes, but it doesn't have a mobile app so it kind of sucks.

I was wondering what other writers do for inspiration while planning characters and settings. I've gotten in the habit of making a folder on Pinterest, and adding images that inspire me for the setting and even images of people who have the right look and feel for my characters, but I wonder if that detracts from the creative process if I have a certain model/actor/whatever in mind while writing a character? Do other writers here use images for inspiration?

I voted Vampires (the love was strong since Lost Souls by Poppy Z Brite), but now that you mention Xena... there is something awesome about corrupt gods and their dealings with mortals. Xena was my crack, and I have no shame!

Hi Em!!! <3 I am so glad you came.

My personal opinion is that you should only make decisions about whose POV the story is in based on whether their POV is needed to move along the plot. For example, in a character-driven story where the focus of the entire novel is one character's growth and development, and most of the plot is driven by THEIR actions, I think that is the situation where first person POV works best. If your narrator is unreliable, and there are other important characters whose motivations NEED to be shown because they are also moving along the plot, that may be a situation where you should consider writing the novel entirely in third person limited. I have co-written a series where all four books were written in third-person limited. The dominant POVs were the two main characters that alternated, but the purpose of the alternating was because both of their actions drove the plot, the book focused on both of their growth, and they were not always in the same scene. We also had cameo-style POVs where a third character would get a POV, but he had maybe 4/20 chapters and they were interspersed in a manner that did not feel random or sudden to the reader, and the decision was made because his subplot was integral to the overall plot, and he was a major player in the entire novel. It seems pointless to insert a POV of a new character if there will only be one chapter, unless it's the prologue. Well, I hope that was somewhat helpful in addition to the other comments. I have written all POV styles except second person, which I have found disconcerting while reading.

I always thought "gamer" covered both. I'm a huge nerd. MMOs (Everquest, WoW, Lineage II, Aion, Rift, Tera, Archeage, ESO, you name it, I have probably tried it...), and consoles. Wii, Xbox, PS4, etc. Still debating investing in an Xbox One, but they kind of turned me off with their initial marketing stuff last year. I've been playing Destiny lately, but my crappy AT&T Internet is giving me a lot of trouble and I can't even stay in a match.

Like the others, I have always worked on multiple stories at a time, but it can be confusing or overwhelming if you start too many projects. Especially if you're not organizing your information. For me, I use Google Drive and Scrivener to stay organized while writing. Google Drive is useful because I can create folders for each story and create a document with an outlined plot (even if it's rough), characters, images for inspiration, links to research, etc. For example, I may have a folder labeled "After Midnight", and have the outline chapter-by-chapter as well as an overall summary with the themes, a page for the characters and images to inspire me, and then a document with lists of links that I've used to research locations, medical facts, etc. I use Scrivener to write in because it's an easy way for me to keep my chapters organized. It also tracks word count by chapter, allows you to have a word count goal, indicates word frequency to avoid "crutch words" and overused phrases, and so on. The best way to explain it was for me to upload an example of the program with one of my projects so you can see the layout: