Daisy

nah, doesnt sound like too much . Apart from the last 2 terms (from jan) we go out alot here too. strangely its normally during the week or was especially in the first 2 years, the weekends are usually for the locals, and there can be quite abit of local/student rivalry in my town. yeah when i go home for hols its generally been for a quietish break too - uni has been one intense time (that and hardly any of us can afford the non-student prices when we go home). most uni's here get about 2to3+ months off for summer, so thats a completly different type of break. Celia

Sorry Kevin, I just thought it was a funny image to picture, you kind of caught me off guard. You explained yourself well, I can understand. Goodluck with finding the lesbian sex, am sure it can't be that hard to find. Celia

I'm not sure how much of the public watch it, but plenty still do - at least its still notorious. I think it has a bit of a cult following, people are drawn to it each year with the dread/weird fasination/mad-humour. In my student town alot of people play drinking games in the pub, each person is assigned a country and something along the lines of (it varies greatly) if your country is mentioned you have to take a sip of your drink - so poor you (or not) if you have been allocated the winner. I don't think any of us get why we put in such lousy performances. Every year we have a debate about what the rules are for entry - I believe its something about can't be 'signed' or something, they have to be amateur acts, but I'm not really sure how true that is. I think lots of people watch it, but for some reason no-one wants to represent our country in the comp, its left to people who - actually have no idea why they want to do it. and the panel-- you'd think someone would take it upon themselves to run a brilliant recruitment mission instead of letting people who obviously have no sense pick, and who has pride in the country. that or its the british humour coming through by the selectors. Terry Wogan who has commentated it every year for god knows how many years now, I think its decades, this year announced he doesnt want to do it again, he's finally had enough - cited the politcal voting. I think thats partly why we dont put forward good acts, nobody cares that much because they know its something that doesnt really involve the uk, other countries are using it to kind of boost themselves and making it more eastern european - nothing wrong with that, but I think there is the sense that we really don't need to be apart of it, we don't depend on it. Its a shame about Terry because he was always funny to listen to, but you could tell he was getting more and more scathing of the whole thing - basically I don't know what other commentators do but he jokes and is sarcastic all the way through (he's not blatantly disrespectfull though - he does say welldone where necessary). They better replace him with a comedian if he does retire, he is part of what makes me watch it each year - don't think it would be enjoyable without his witty comments. in fact if he did retire and they didnt replace him with someone better then I think pretty much all the following of the show would drop - he is what everyone associates with the show in the uk. Celia

Thanks for all your answers. Obviously things are abit different in the uk. It was only until this friend suggested about travelling to another country to drink that it clicked about the whole week, though I get not everybody does that, just like not everybody goes to Ibiza or simular here in the summer. I get way more holidays than you guys (my uni is the most liberal in that regard in the country) but it also means I am getting less for my money technically. Our big party time begins in a weeks time, at least in my uni. Everybody finishes exams (and I only have one set a year so they are BIG - infact this years counts towards 60% of my degree - but of course some of that pressure is taken of by coursework) and I then have 3 weeks before term officially ends and graduation but nothing really to do except have fun (and possibly earn money), its a silly system, most uk uni's arent like this, but i really enjoy the time to relax with friends before we all disapear around the country - this time for good. Celia

Yep, I am more determined than ever to keep working for what is right, not just for gay people. Glad that things are working out for you now, though it mustnt be nice living with the bad memories even if they fade and other more positive things in life takeover. I suppose another way of readressing that question about whether to change if you could your sexual preference is whether you would want to forfeit all the good things that came with it, like relationships with people that have been good and whom you loved. if you could do-over would people be willing to sacrifice that. Celia

I'm really sorry to hear that. I am really lucky to live in a time and place where things are getting better, even if they are not perfect. I hope that things in your life are getting better. Celia

I've heard this debate before, about a pill, and if it was avaiblle would you take it to give yourself the straight orientation. The response was varied then aswell. I think for the people who wouldnt change anything, its because they really are happy with themselves, can't imagine life (as in your perspective on the world) any other way. being gay is part of that, its part of who you are (even if it doesnt define you). Kevin's response about being a lesbian made me laugh really hard . but I can understand not wanting the bad bits, some of that list you gave was disheartening, I hope that you havent faced all that. Celia

hello This has come up in conversation with my friends recently. What actually is spring break? I get that its somekind of uni holiday, and for some a massive party. I was talking to them about alcohol and age limits, and someone suggested that the reason spring break was so talked about was because uni/college students will travel to a place its legal to drink and get a bit wild. Is that what it is? and is that the reason that its known for being so wild?- at least the impression I get from films etc. that students go overboard because they aren't really used to alcohol, well and can't be as open about it allyear round like we can. If thats true, think our freshers week will be our equivilant - the first week of uni thats usually just one massive party, and 18yr olds go abit wild with their first freedom and ability to buy alcohol. Thanks, Celia

I don't really think that Pride parades in the uk have the same reputation that you guys are all talking about. I think there is definitly lots of drinking and likely some wild behaviour, but I'm quite surprised at stories of bj's and dildo's. I certainly had not come across that perception, could just be my ignorance or that the parades are not really kind of a big deal politically anymore/ not thrust in people's faces by the media as much. but if you go to manchester's canal street for a night out then you get the drink, the halfnaked people, the draq queens etc all the time, its one amazing and busy street to walk along. I went on the manchesters pride website and from what i can tell they are trying to expand it as much as possible, they have the major parade but they are turning it into a weeklong party with lots more aspects to it. maybe I will go this year now I'm interested from all this talk. I agree with Kevin that they need to be stuck up for. people need to be aware of their own predjudices and intolerance within the gay community as within the straight world. reading some of the comments here has become quite close to that I think. yes gay existence needs to be stood up for, its not something that can be taken for granted, and claiming public space is part of that, and its not good if parts of it are used against gay people by certain groups. but it is their life. thats what I take it people are fighting for, the ability to live their lives in the manner they want to. and don't forget how pride parades first started and the significance of stonewall and all that - its part of how we are here today. I agree I think it was with Gary, that the rest is just convincing people person by person by showing people that you are a person, like them, and gay/bi. Zilar, people will gossip, but they will gossip about anything, every little bit of your life. I suppose thats the battle, overcoming the worry over what other people think, because really what they think doesnt change much in your actual life. there is nothing wrong with being interested in a gay couple on your street, I don't think that people would automatically think, ooo he's asking because he is gay, just that your are pipiqued by the 'queerness of folk', ie. everybody has an interest in whats around them. but surely if your parents had bad opinions of gay folk then they would have been vocal about it in some way - in passing in conversation etc. I used to live in the rural countryside, in my hamlet of 5 houses, one of them were a gay couple, and as far as I could tell they came across no problems in the valley and community. They were invited to all the community parties and events, in fact they ran alot of the community legal/functioning stuff. Sure we talked about them, about their lives in general, where they were from, the eccentric parts to their relationship, but that was the same as with everyone else that lived in the hamlet and around. Everybody got on with them, I didnt think that some of the local farmers etc would have been so easy about it, but they just were - there was no other way they could be, they just go on with their lives. Goodluck with everything Celia

Points wise? I think we got 14 - and six of them were from Ireland!! Not sure who gave us the rest, must have been in little dribbles of one points. The act was some runner up from pop idol who I had never heard of since gave up watching that years ago. but he was pretty awful - though compared to some of the standard we've entered recently not too bad. the whole set was multicoloured and he was wearing this weird austin powers suit. bosnia to me was the weirdest -had these doll like people and a washing line. no real singing at all. was odd - even for eurovision standards. Celia

Hello all. Thought I'd better say a formal hello to everyone. Have been posting for about a week now (as a kinda stress release from my uni exams), but been a quiet member of GA for a little while longer than that. I really love some of the stories here, and the community you have in the forums is quite amazing as well. Well, see you around, better get some sleep before more revision tomorrow :S. Celia

I think its because the number of countries taking part has increased so much that it would take up way too much airtime if they kept the same fomat. I agree, the low points were the best bit - especially since they were/are the only ones the uk are ever likely to get. They don't just read out the votes of those taking part, but other countries that didnt make it to the final, there were 43 countries reporting tonight! Celia

Don't think so, I think they've only taken part in the last few years, since not traditionally part of europe. Its a popularity contest! Thats why it feels good to win. What do you think of all the political voting?? hehe. britains never gona win at the moment, especially since we've no neighbours except for ireland. that and we somehow manage to drag up the worst acts imaginable from all the talent we have. some of the acts they put on sometimes make me think what the hell were they thinking - bosnia for example. I liked the one with the oldman on the decks. and most of the girls seemed to be wearing the same dress - silver and shimmery. Celia

I like the british commentator the best, keeps me amused while watching some dubious/funny performances (including that of the presenters) . Our UK entry was again pitiful, but quite glad we didnt get 'nil point' again. My geography knowledge is shocking, there were countries in it that I'd never heard of, let alone knew were in 'europe'. I'm interested though as to how seriously some of the countries take the contest, do the people really er, believe the show to be amazing, or is it just the sore loser effect on the part of the uk that we don't take it seriously. Well done to russia, it was quite a good act! (a rumour I heard was that timberland had been involved in their act) Celia

Who do you mean by they? My lesbian schoolfriend used to be slightly openly homophobic in some of her comments and such, everyone in my friend group used to feel uncomfortable whenever she said that sort of stuff, turns out she was thinking she had to protect her image - all the while that friend group consisted of an out bisexual girl and bisexaul guy. so yeah, the lurking dangers are complex! From what I can tell though, the UK pride marches don't get that much national attention. I don't think it harms people's perceptions that badly overall. people are inquisitive about stuff. in brighton and manchester the 'gay villages' often have alot of straight people visiting them as well, which to some extent annoys the 'locals'. I don't think its wrong for people to have a celebration of themselves, time to 'let their hair down', I think thats how its generally percieved. (or I could be completely off-base--they are one subject i haven't really debated with people). Celia

Thanks. Thats exactly my problem, I really want to confront him about it. I saw him last night, and it was difficult being around him. I just hadn't made up my mind at that point what I should do. I haven't even really talked to the friend who spilled it yet. It doesnt bloody help that my ultra big and scarey finals are tomorrow and the day after, ones that will decide my future for the next few years, so I don't really need this distraction. I normally deal with things by being direct, cutting through the bullshit, but I just couldnt work out whether this time it was appropriate since he had deliberately tried to mislead me, that and I think because I was imagining him as really good new friend that I was more hurt than anything so it was interfering with how I handle things. If I don't deal with it, I cannot carry on developing a friendship with him because it seems fake and its tormenting me too much, so yeah I'm thinking I do need to do something. I, sigh, just don't want him to freak out on me, or blame the other friend for spilling, and unlike other times where I have dealt with friends coming out - I'm nervous, so slightly worried can't keep the tone light rather than accusatory (over the deception). and the sooner the better so I can get it off my mind. maybe tomorrow after my exams, I'll be too tired after 4 and a half hours of exams to be nervous, and he'll be too tired to have a heart attack . Celia

Already done that. Did that before I knew he was gay. Thats what I meant about he knew my views and attitudes, albeit I didnt have a long conversation about it, but he has heard me talk about gay people - I was discussing how to write a paper on public space, exclusions and gender, sexual differences and prostitutes, and he managed to come across as if he genuinly hadnt really thought about it or wasn't that enlightened -- haha was doing my speel on visibility and theory behind it, how you can't stick up for yourself if you are made to be invisible, aka dont ask don't tell, or forcing prostitues off the streets, society norms etc. Don't worry I wasn't going overboard, was careful with how i said it. so yeah, he knows my views. but even after that he made an effort to mention his heterosexuality (again he was given a cue via this course we have been taking together)- because otherwise I don't mention things like that directly. sooo....it seems like he isn't comfortable telling me and there is nothing I can do about it unless I want a confrontation which I don't think is fair. its just making me less inclined to be their friend, but thats also not fair. I'm sure it'll work out, I just need to be patient. Celia

Yeah, its frustrating when they are sortof making the decision for you as to how you will react. But it sounds in your case, I've had something simular happen with other friends, that they didnt want to hurt you since you were a good friend, rather than just thinking you were made of glass. With my situation, sigh, I know it could be that they just aren't secure with themselves to tell lots of people yet, it may take them alittle while to build up his courage, but I now feel I can't act normal around him, because all I'm thinking about it that they are soo comfortable lying to me - and I know some closeted people set up things like that to kind of protect themselves, but really, I never lead him to say any of the things he said. Its frustrating because in general he seems like a really really great guy and possible long-time friend - but this is somehow tarnishing him for me - and I think I feel worse about this because he appears to be such a great guy - that and I've been pretty open with alot of other private stuff going on in my life. I don't know, I've just got to forget about it, its his life.

I haven't given an answer yet, I need to think about it some more. But in my studies I recently read about the new york 'st pats for all' parade, which was started because the 'official' St. Patrick's Day parade organisers said they didn't want gay people who were publicly affliated with organisations like LGBT to take part openly. From what I've read that seems like a very good parade and very nice idea. Its spread and alot more organisations and social groups take part, ones that were also excluded from the offical parade, and extends way into the community with people digging out very old or distant irish connections. but its brought people together. Otherwise I've never seen a pride parade, although I've heard of them in the uk, in manchester or brighton for example. If my friends decide they want to take part I may do one-day, but at the moment they haven't got the interest. Celia

no, you stated it clearly . It has been the thing that I have noticed as the most important thing in making people comfortable, and I have seen the affects within some of my friends. I am not 'out' myself, that really is more to do with I don't really know what the hell I want and so am quietly trying to figure it out, and get used to the idea, but the longer it takes and the more conclusive ideas I'm getting, the more I feel like I am possibily decieving people. But regardless, I try and make making people feel able to be comfortable one of my priorities in general - and do that if I can via various signals, but I can only show I am as openminded as I am to a certain level then its up to the person. The last few days I've gotten quite frustrated, even though I know I have no right to be, because a newish but good uni friend (so they don't know my home friends), who knows my views and attitudes, was accidentally revealed to me by a mutual friend to be gay and have a boyfriend in another city, it makes no difference to me whatsoever, but he is obviously not comfortable with me yet to tell me himself, and has deliberatly tried to decieve me with some of the things he has said. So now I'm stuck with having to pretend I don't know until he tells me (if he does), and its sad and upsetting that they won't just tell me, in fact slightly hurtfull - but I completley understand that its up to them and its not easy and I don't want to make them uncomfortable. but yeah thats been aggravating me the last 2 days. but pleased that you've found your friends more accepting that you may have thought, its goodsigns. Celia

Actually am tempted to agree. if everyone were to suddenly announce then I think there would be a backlash, at least for awhile untill everyone adjusted and calmed down. It would be a shock, and people can react badly to shock, before their rational and/or calmer side takes over. but thats not whats happening usually, people are doing it in incremental shifts, and as far as I can tell from my experience the more this effect is rippling out and increasing the number likely to come out and those more accepting. Although of course it may have always been this way, but behind closed doors, or not so obviously accepting/out, and I can't say because I didn't live then. Celia

Hia, I agree with you on all your points. I really do believe that the more people who have come out in the uk, in the media, fictitious characters, and in real life, has been a major part in what has spread the higher levels of tolerance and acceptance we have, compared to the past. The more they see it the more they become accustomed to it, or the more its seen in a neutral or positive way (with of course the backing of the government) people are becoming more adjusted. It hasnt wiped out homophobia completly and people can still be unsure of gay people when they actually see them as a couple (although from my experience they keep their feelings/shock private), but the general attitude of the country is changing. I put a survey on a link somewhere about how these attitudes have changed in the last 20 years and its staggering -- in the 1980's (according to this study) 3/4's of the population believed homosexuality was wrong or mostly wrong, whereas last years study revealed less than a third believe its wrong. but just under a third said they believed 2 gay men would be good parents, but thats also almost in line with their opinions on other alternative family arrangements such as single parenting. What you said about people being more inclined to be polite around out gay/bi people is correct in my experience too, my friends have experienced the same thing. People may gossip behind their backs, and use particular lang/jokes when they are in a general social group, but as soon as there is a gay person it doesn't really happen, unless its in friendly banter. The other important thing about more people being out though, is that I think it has a positive affect on others still in the closet. If they see someone comfortable with themselves, or doing things they can't do in public, or even not recieving the horrendously bad reaction they think will occur if they leave the closet, then I believe that it has the possibility of making that person more confident, or accepting of themselves. This would have an affect on bisexual people, I think, because for the majority of society they don't understand bisexuality, and that can include the person who is experiencing it themselves, seeing someone else deal with something simular and be open about it can therefore be helpful I think. It doesn't have to be just people you meet either, one of my lesbian friends, what helped build up her courage to come out was watching the LWord - watching other lesbian people and wanting what they had. In fact, thats what this site is doing in a way itself. Right back to painfull revision, Celia

yeah, the friends I see getting engaged soon, don't strike me as ever 'settling down'. just strikes me as a grown up thing to do -- ie. something grown ups are allowed to do, ergo I am an adult, arrgh time is flying, exciting and daunting. girls my age are starting more and more to talk about kids, in a serious manner. the other day I remember some of us discussing, I was saying I could actually see it as a real possibilty, me a mum, for the first time (not that I want any yet at all), before the idea just seemed so foreign, and the boys we were with were looking at each other, am sure thinking omg omg omg, girls are crazy, I hope my gf doesnt think that . Celia

You sound like you've been thinking alot about kids, I noticed it in another post too . Maybe you just have to stress how dangerous certain activities are, give examples, stressing the whole it may not be worth trying, I know that worked with me - my mum gave me an example of a friend of a friend of a friend, who was a med student, never touoched drugs, then one-day decided to try e, had half a tablet and very tragically had a bad reaction and died. I couldnt stop thinking about that since. My friend, discovered a bag of weed on the floor in the sitting room (I think it was just under the sofa) that her son and his friend had accidentally forgotten to take up to his room. She was cleaning and discovered it with a friend. they plotted how to make the boys worry that they'd found out. When he came home from school, told him casually that they'd thoroughly cleaned the sitting room, later that evening his bestfriend came round, and the sneaked in to check under the sofa, she could tell they were starting to panic because it wasnt there, but she didnt let on at all that she knew. She let them stew for a few hours, before eventually confronting them that her friend/cleaner had rang to let her know what she had found earlier in the day, that the lady was very upset and had said she was considering not coming back, told her son how it was bad because this lady was a gossip (which she is anyway) and it was bad for her buisness reputation- she's a beauty therapist and has clients at her home. but that it might be ok if the boy rang and apologised to her. they ad-libbed, and eventually pretended that the lady's husband was a policeman and wanted a word as well over the phone. the boy apologised, and got a message about how the man was letting the boy off but should really be his duty to report it and what could happen from there. the poor boy learnt his lesson about consequences I think. after his mother had a word about drugs etc etc, reminded him about her stroke. said there would be no more consequences. but had to change her mind the next day when she realised she couldnt not tell the other boys mother, but warned him first. (knew she would react badly as she is some kind of drugs rehabilitation nurse for those severly damaged, so then again the boy himself should have known better). Not sure what I think about her method, but she's certainly a good actor. can't tell you whether it worked and he's not tried again. celia

One of my older friends is a single parent and smokes. In the last year her boy (now 15) has started smoking. She wants to quit, but keeps on failing or trying halfheartedly (she doesnt smoke alot though). I was at her house when she caught her son and his friend smoking, right outside her front door once! I was visiting her another time, just before I arrived she had tricked him, she had gone to his room and asked for a cigarette, he trusted her and offered her his packet (they are actually very close generally because she is only young and they've been through alot together). She then had a moral dillema and decided she couldnt give the packet back and had to tell him strongly that he shouldnt be smoking - the problem was he had trusted her. I convinced her that although she couldnt give him the packet back, or directly give him the money (as he would obviously go straight and buy some more so she'd be directly funding him) to let him buy something with the money and give her the receipt. All the while in the stress she started smoking his pack, which he saw when he came downstairs and demanded to be paid back. It was very difficult (and I wish she had resisted in that moment). Problem, she didnt want him to not tell her things. It just seems easier if the parent doesnt smoke. On the other hand, my mother smoking is what has convinced by brother (16) that he will never ever touch them, he detests smoking now. About the drugs comment, this friend at one point had a problem with drugs herself, not a bad addiction, just something she occasionally did. A freak accident happened and she had a stroke at 32 directly because of cocaine (there was no lasting damage). She has never ever touched drugs since, and has changed alot since then in general. Since she has told her son, I think in the last year (she's 36) as a warning to not touch drugs as he knew what happened to his mother. I think that incident has touched him, because he realised how scared she had been about what could have happened, however she is having problems with him and cannabis. Parenting seems really difficult. Celia