Daisy

yeah, I have to disagree with you about the death penalty. I am against it in all situations. imprison then, punish them that way, take away some of their abilities and pleasures. but not death. no-one to me has the right to inflict death on another. they may have done terrible wrongs and deserve to be punished. but that does not give you or the state the right to take their life. we need to have a system to keep control in society to keep it civilised, but that to me is taking it way too far. so im against it in principle, then I'm also against it as Shadowgod pointed out on a practical level of we make mistakes and this is something you cannot take back. I also have to disagree with you about the Bill. Democracy to me is about creating conversation. it is not about repressing other people's thoughts, belief's and ideas. if there was overwhelming disagreement by the american republic those that opposed it on the grounds that their constituents complained to me are the ones that are worthy. thats what its for, I thought they were supposed to be representatives. also it comes down to what sort of democracy you want to promote. and who it works for and how. to me letting the companies suffer for alittle bit more was fine. esp if this re-examining of the bill with new ideas that make the bill fairer for all not just for wall st is good. things shouldnt necessarily be rushed. and I hope that this teaches those in power about how democracy, to me, is supposed to work. for all not just for those at the top. where feedback is essential. and where more than a few opinions matter.

How do you know your facts about Cuba's health service? The UK. It is a failing system, but we have major flaws that have been allowed to develop in it. those need completely overhauling and I believe we can still have an NHS that is 'free at the point of delivery' for all. so writing it off isnt necessarily correct. the hospiatals, well they cna be used for different things if you think there are too many. other vital services for communities that are missing that prevent people from needing to go to hospitals. research in the route to best health is needed before health services are just let to continue if you system is changed, otherwise you will be paying for either things that arent needed, or not reducing the need for healthcare which will save costs later. but... it is a massive job.

I think your right in that effort needs to be put into a relationship. it can't just happen it has to be nourished. but I also think its bad when a person has to change themselves too much to make themselves into the other person's (mr/ms right). and even small changes can be very bad for that person if it damages their personality. at the moment several of my friends are in relationships which they are in love with. one of whom describes her girlfriend as ms. right. but in mine and pretty much all of her friends opinions the relationship is having a detrimental effect on her. we've been patient, still are patient, but how this girl has changed to keep the relationship alive isnt healthy, nor is the actions that she is doing and what she is putting up with. i think everyones right, we should have criteria of what we are looking for as a guide, but be openminded and give things chances, and work on problems. but changing for another person, im not sure about. celia

Yeah, I am slightly regretting not paying as much attention to what I was spending during my undergrad years. But I think we have a different system, or mayeb it is simular. here in the uk (well the format has just changed, but I was on the 'old' system), was that everyone was entitled to a Student Loans Company official loan (I'm not sure of the details but the premise was set up by the government), and the last 25% is means tested. i just had the bog standard one. Its supposed to be low interest, but in the last few years the rate of interest has gone up alot without people really noticing. paying it back, we don't have to pay anything until we are earning over

Yeah, definitley treasure it. im doing a masters now, and its painfully hit there will be no luxury of the student loan . and its also hit me I have to pay the damn thing back that I didnt appreciate and its actually gaining interest. ohhh, im missing my undergrad years. goodluck with the willpower celia

a teacher and a doctor are the main ones I remember. quite glad I haven't done either. there were loads of little silly acomplishments I wanted to do though... celia

I don't think its necessarily cultural, though there likely is some kind of difference. However I do think its personality and character of the person. Some of my friends are natural flirts, or rather they can cope with people flirting with them and don't take it seriously. They can take the extra attention, pass it back, all while having lots of fun, and still deflect any serious sexual intent (they have partners) and get on with whatever they were doing. Its quite good on a night out because they can distract and dance with those that think im being no fun. but I have other friends who are like me to different degrees and it is down to their personality. shyness plays a big part, but for others its just they aren't interested in certain types of flirting while still being perfectly comfortable with themselves. and I also think its to do with sex drive maybe. Why I say that I would want to change? Well for one, I want to be able to be more confident in giving people the brush off in a more witty manner, so semi flirting I suppose. But the main reason is because I think my block on it (for some of the flirting, the ones I would be interested in returning, not the pesky too forward not nice ones) is to do with my self-image. So I'm more working on why I automatically don't take things as a compliment, and become defensive when I actually am or may be interested. I do think I am ruining chances for myself sometimes, and am being maybe not unreasonable, but a little unsocialable in general, at times. So I suppose what I'm saying is that I need to improve my confidence, and stop myself from being defensive and ruining things when I do really like someone. but also sometimes the flirting, or a very mild form of it isnt anything threatening, and could be just like being pleasent, in which case its another way of making friends, which im stopping myself from doing by, in those cases, not being as confident. I haven't explained myself very well, it does depend very much on who is flirting and why and the setting. celia

hehe interesting! look at the time on it though, you missed it .

well I wouldnt see it that way. the way you would retreat like I'm some crazed animal would likely make me as depressed as you'd feel not being flirted with. I'd find it rude. and its often the case that those people aren't very good at concealing their disgust at you for not appreciating their total love and adjustment to flirting as the norm. I'm perfectly happy making new friends, but I'm not really adjusted to people assuming they can be overtly sexual in their touches, especially to strangers. so no often I don't simply want that attention to make myself feel good, its not my goal on a night out or whatever. However I am a medium touchy person, at least with friends, but not as much as some people I know well who are extremely so with everyone, but I do like it (but not if I think its sexual). However back to the top bit, I do suffer from lack of self-image to an extent, so what I'm battling against is often in my head thinking, they don't really like me, they are just being inappropriate or playing games with me or something, so it doesnt reinforce good things for me often. As I say, I know thats bad, and Im working on changing that, and I am making progress. celia

I think that's what this debate comes down to. Flirting comes more naturally to some than others. I am a terrible flirt. and so I think its because of lack of practise, being very skeptical of guys intentions, and lack of confidence in myself that I get uncomfortable. So I kind of block flirting as its easier to not flirt back and 'safer', hence why I feel out of control. Im learning to try to accept attention and not to judge people too quickly. it is fun at times, and certainly alot less fun feeling uncomfortable and trying to avoid it. (however back to the earlier debate, I would also not participate because I wasnt interested in them like that, and so wouldnt want to encourage them, but even that would make me uncomfortable as I'm cutting them down when they are being nice) however innocent the real flirting as you say (not what happened in Turkey and simular) may be and natural to the flirter, the person recieving it may not be like that at all. I can say that ordinary flirting has made me feel awful when to someone who is confident and used to it that would seem an alien concept. but it is the way I often feel. even if I am trying to change that. thats why in the past I have often also felt bad or uncomfortable as the person flirting just thinks Im being rude or not fun when I don't flirt back or am awkward, they don't understand what to them is simple easy flirting, for me, isnt as trivial a scene. Even though I'm trying to flirt back more, there are certain times that I think I still wouldnt like someone to flirt with me, or for them to think that flirting is acceptable behaviour and that I'm simply being unreasonable. The office is an example. If say someone did genuinely like me, and there was more chemistry there then yes. however otherwise I would find it unproffessional, and its where I think the flirting can become part of the power politics of an office, as some men would use it as a way of trying to dominate and asserting their role, and the womens, in the office relations. Maybe Im being abit dramatic, but some of my friends have worked in environments like this, and the men may not have realised what they were doing or why it was inappropriate and not just normal behaviour, but then get funny when you try to tell them to stop. and of course you've still got to work with them. but of course as you say, maybe its only flirting when 2 people both interact. celia

Maybe its because I feel like I'm having to battle against something to just do something rather than enoying it for what it is, say walk down a street in peace, or do a task in an office, or whatever it is that the inappropriate flirting interupts. and they're using sexuality to do this, something I can't really control (without changing my personality). I know I have a problem about it as its not going to stop and I need to adjust to it. I do need to flip my attitude and I'll likely feel more in control, or even use it to my advantage more.

I don't think I'm taking offense for the sake of being offended. I'm not trying to be all anti-flirting or men but it can make me uncomfortable which is why I don't like it. Also I think it goes deeper than taking it as a compliment sometimes. I'm thinking more about power relations. but, I could be thinking too much into it. I suppose Im saying it makes me feel like im not an equal, or in say an office it would, but I suppose taking it as a compliment would balance that out. maybe im relating flirting, or this type of flirting to what a friend said to me once, its from the complete extreme, she was raped, and told me it was more about power and control than attractiveness, so I suppose Im doubting people's reasons. okay I have issues. celia

Sigh, I don't know why I've felt threatened. The first time was in Turkey when I was about 13/14 and the men in the street were 'flirting', supposedly being playful, but actually very suggestive, and disrespectful. They did it after we walked past their stalls and wouldnt stop to look. There didnt seem to be any way to stop it, and it was all very new. they were only nice, decent, when you were buying something, and so I became very wary and skeptical. It was repeated in Egypt a few years later, I was dressed fairly conserevatively but alot of men would still leer. It made me doubt or mistrust what even nice men were thinking when I was talking to them. I remember chatting to a young guy in a shop in my hotel, he was non-threatening, no bartering required so I was safe to just look and he seemed genuinely nice, I suppose was charming, no I mean basically a normal conversation. Aftere 5 mins he then became touchy. It just left me with the impression again that I couldnt trust any of them to not be thinking of anything but one thing when a white girl was there and being friendly or polite was like saying yes, you have permission. however I felt very differently the last time I went travelling. we arrived in a new city and went to a guesthouse, the owner who didnt speak english walked us to the cashpoint, their equally older friend tagged along (I immediatley knew what was coming) he began to try to flirt, which I kind of played ingnorant to as I knew the other 2 girls if they knew what was happening would feel threatened since we were in a secluded street initially. Not too much later when it was obvious what he was hinting at I shook my head no and was clear I didnt want to, they backed off straight away. later i told the girls who were oblivious and said I hadnt felt threatened at all to which they couldnt understand. maybe it was I understood that they would at least try since we were from out of town, and they listened when I said no and continued as normal. or maybe its Im older. I do accept flirting in a club in the uk and am fine with it. maybe its just the out of place settings I don't like. however I didnt really class that as flirting either, simply asking for sex. I think it is a mental thing I have. an inferiority complex or something. anyway, ... Im sounding pathetic. celia

Hmm, this is a difficult question. I have been in situations where I have felt flattered, or I mean charmed by people who've made me feel very good. Other situations have left me feeling upset or uncomfortable, targeted and definitly sexually harrased. You're right about being able to say no and them listen and still appear to respect you as making a big difference. I think it was the style and culture differences, and possibly the intent behind the 'flirting', or maybe the setting. I'm going to have to think about why they've left me feeling so differently in more detail. But I wouldnt want to do away with flirting altogther. Maybe I'm labelling something as flirting that isn't. well, my gran made me think maybe the behaviour was 'flirting' when I hadnt classed it as. basically I don't like being a sex object, but I do like someone making me feel special or giving me positive attention for 'me'. maybe i haven't learnt how to take a compliment or maybe Im too cynical, or maybe Im prudish about sex. an example of a setting I'm thinking of (not my real situations) is in an office where its all male and dealing with friendly flirting, it's not easy to tell everyone to back off, some people may revel in it, but I wouldnt, maybe you've experienced something like this with unwanted female flirting. maybe I just have a bad attitude, I don't think it has helped me as I do think I am way too defensive sometimes and it is stopping me from getting to know people who I may have really gotten to like and even had a relationship with. It could be I had a badd experience when young and its affected my normal appreciation of it. Anyway I'll think about it more. celia

I don't know. I think if this testing is very new then it should be given a period of time to double check that it really is fool proof. then it does become discrimination. but I understand why it is the way it is under the older testing.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! have a great time, hugs celia

. yep it resonates with me too.

poor you. I can't go to any of the local gum clinics either, he runs them all. I don't think we were shown anything as bad as that in my school. I went to this taster 2 day thing for students thinking of medicine though and one of the docs was seriously funny, but why oh why he chose that proffession and showed us those pic I don't know! another guy was a brain surgeon, not sure which pics I saw were worse. In RE a girl fainted, that was from this film on abortion over time. Do you americans have anything like this, there's always debate here of how much and how early they are supposed to tell kids, but reading it now it does sound graphic. we had our 1st session when we were age 9-10 I think, but it was only basic I think. in that same class when I was 13 I remember the teacher explaining what 69 was. we also covered drugs too, and exactly what experience they gave you. celia

you're right. I remember 4 years ago in 6th form going over statistics in my geography class. heterosexual infection was larger than that of homosexuals by sheer numbers I think, and due to that had a better chance of spreading further, but I think if I remember in the gay population the prevelance was still higher by % of the population. but yes thats uk stats and quite awhile ago. im amazed really that its not simular in the usa, or if it is that its only being recognised now. the problem I remember discussing was that most straight people, esp young people still believed in the myth and hadnt appreciated how easy it was for them to catch HIV. The worst part of my sex ed in school, year 9 (er, age 13) was watching this tape about the sexual services in our area, and usual stuff about std's, but the main guy presenting it was.....the dad of one our family friends. so yep, found out what type of doctor he was then. it was worse for his 2 kids Celia

edit to add: Im sure that most of the time those people who make you feel in such a way have no inclination of how they make you feel, and they shouldnt be able to make you feel that way, its not fair, most likely you havent done anything that deserves that. so stop punishing yourself. also your human you cannot be perfect, recovery is an up and down process, you have to be prepared for both. and also understand its 'normal' to feel bad and low at times, its expected even, so again there's no need to beat yourself up so much. its a long way back to the top, but with people around you its definitly possible, they are there to catch up when you fall, and to help push you back up again. but I completely understand how easy it is for me to say that and how hard the road ahead is and can seem especially when it seems neverending. but its worth it, I promise. celia

you can't please everyone all the time, or even most of the time, nor in fact should you really. everyone has different expectations and there is no way you can or should be able to anticipate them all or change your actions beyond whats reasonable, and thats even factoring in that you had good intentions for whatever it is you're indictaing you've done to end up on a shit list. to me you seem just a fine, no, an amazing and decent, human being. you should live your life for yourself. don't worry yourself sick about things that havent gone right or people you haven't managed to please even with (especially with even) brilliant intentions. this is the number one rule I have learnt this year, and like yourself I feel like I have been through absolute shit and dealt with numerous depressed people and managed to 'think' myself almost into a frenzy (contemplating life etc etc, when trust me its been close to disappearing for those close to me). what I'm trying to say is its not worth it. happieness, contentness, is to me now the most important goal personally. I've have seen what happens to people when they live a life full of expectations, many they've projected onto themselves, and it has nearly detroyed them, made their life miserable. and what for, they've done alot of good with their life, but its not helped them or the others anywhere near as much as the cost. nor will it be able to as the time that person has to 'help others' if thats their goal is rapidly reduced due to the persona destruction its caused early on. so life is short, you have one chance, my aim is not to waste it bu surrounding myself with people who make me feel bad or guilty or stop me from living a life that I can have happiness. its just not worth it. my mum is 51, all her 'good' years are gone, wasted on allowing other things to drag her down (Im not saying she hasnt got real reasons, just the expectations bit etc was a massive part), I have to be determined I don't allow the same to happen to myself for its easy to get bogged down, not when there is a decent alternative. sorry for the bit of a rant. ignore whatever you wish, but I hope not. I hope you feel better soon. celia

I don't do it with friends, because its not fair and guilt stops me. with my family therefore its only when I am around them (and most of the year I don't live with them, or haven't for the last 3 years) or possibly while on the phone to them. I think I do it with them on the rare occasions I do as I feel I can get away with it on a rare occasion, I've put up with a lot of their shit, mess and tantrums so they can handle a second of mine, that and familys supposed to forgive right, or maybe supposed to not have a choice in that, but Im getting older so thats not really right. Why I do it, yes there is usually some sort of other problem I have, and when Im living with friends instead I simply have to deal with it instead of deflecting and inflicting it on others. I think the last year though I isolated myself more than I should have now I look back and maybe should have approached my friends more, even if it meant I was alittle unstable at times, I'm sure some of them would have coped with it, again, I've had to handle enough of their problems and little 'fits' than maybe I should have. my triggers are stress, pressure and worry. I don't deal with them well. and add to that procrasination (but that doesnt cause me to be like that, apart from when my family puts pressure on me about it ). so really I need to deal with the stress in other ways. actually alot of the time I put the stress and pressure on myself when it doesnt need to be there, thats what I've learnt this year really. I become over anxious. especially I need to fight the urge to procrasinate when I find something difficult or I put pressure on something as important, which then is only compounded when I waste valuable time. to reduce the pressure I think Im going to have to reduce the worry somehow, which unfortunately seems to be an inbuilt thing with me (and often I've realised unnecessary). oh well , well done Tiger you've managed to make me think about alot of things Ive been thinking about for awhile but brought them together. its been one good year for personal lessons . celia so yeah you've all answered my 'problem'.

I'm not going to be much help. don't know how you stop it. I do something simular to my brother and sister or even my mum at times when I'm grumpy or upset, but not often, and I can recognise it when I do it too. I don't really with anybody else. its just they're family . i suppose its self-control, as tough as that may be. celia

Yeah I was suprised when I saw the news about that courtcase because I hadnt been aware that victims got compensation. a friend of mine was raped and I wasnt aware she got any money, but she may have. I am wondering now as she had had a drink but wasnt drunk. but in this case it definetly wasnt her fault in anyway plus she was only 17. back to topic, I assumed that a victim was taken care of by the NHS and other means if necessary as a matter of course. and surely that is the case anyway as the nhs is free, so the money is for some other purpose? celia

I agree, its not unreasonable theoretically. but there is a big But here. rape is unacceptable. in an ideal world it wouldnt happen, so is it wrong to assume that the people around you are decent human beings not animals. unfortunatley I do think that a Woman who gets absolutely blind drunk in a dodgy setting is partially to blame as you say for negilence (depending on why they are caught up in that situation). However I wouldnt deny them compensation. They've been through an ordeal and as society we should look after her and aid her recovery as much as we can rather than further destroy her/or his confidence and financial ability to get things they need. I also think the government and of course, society - the people in it, are responsible for creating and ensuring a safe environment where these sort of concerns, being wary that people will take serious advantage, aren't needed. therefore as I already said, although its not the governments, or taxpayers, fault that they were raped per se, it does go towards repairing the damage that shouldnt have been there. the car insurance one is different, there is not bodily harm involved and its only a possesion.