Thank you for sharing.

Anyone who has a chance to visit Gettysburg national Military Park should do so. Walking through the fields has given me a renewed respect for those soldiers who fought in the war. The landscape's doted with monuments in memory of the many who lost their lives. Lives which were lost so that, as Abraham Lincoln later said: "...this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

?..a s Abraham Lincoln later said: "...this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

Fine words. Trouble is his "new birth of freedom" didn't apply to "blacks" and Native Americans. So either they weren't "people" to Mr Lincoln, or he was more interested in making the historical sound bite

https://www.aclu.org/files/VRATimeline.html?redirect=timeline-history-voting-rights-act

Half full, half empty. He also signed the Emancipation Declaration. After hundreds of years of slavery, that was step one. We're not there yet, but each step brings us closer.

And I strongly object to the 'sound byte' comment. He never thought the GA would be so well remembered or go down in history as one of the finest pieces of oratory ever written.

I choose to believe we improve ourselves and our Union with each generation, but only if we use the past as a building block, and not just toss it away as imperfect.

It is a sobering fact that more American lives were lost in our Civil War than in all the rest of our wars combined.   Our country's greatness is not that it was perfect, but that we continue to try to perfect it as we grow and mature as a nation and a society.  That growth is not always fast enough for some, but we have seen some recent progress....

This chart in Wiki lays out the war casualties by each conflict.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war

The link below is from the Department of Veterans Affairs which organizes the information differently but shows about the same numbers.  

http://www.va.gov/opa/publications/factsheets/fs_americas_wars.pdf

Fine words. Trouble is his "new birth of freedom" didn't apply to "blacks" and Native Americans. So either they weren't "people" to Mr Lincoln, or he was more interested in making the historical sound bite

 

https://www.aclu.org/files/VRATimeline.html?redirect=timeline-history-voting-rights-act

If that sounds like a soundbite to you, it's the noblest one humanity is ever likely to produce. 

And...ok, I redact my further thoughts   

If that sounds like a soundbite to you, it's the noblest one humanity is ever likely to produce. 

 

And what, prey tell, was the Mighty British Empire doing in the name of Her subjects at the time, except arming the institution of slavery with cash for cheap cotton, and armaments. BSA is still a major weapons seller in the South because of the rebellion.  

Guys, I really do not like all this finger pointing  

Debate is good. If it gets a little heated and nationalistic, so be it. The Soapbox got taken away from us, so this is the only option. 

Let the gloves come off!

And yes, the Europeans are hardly ones to give morality lessons on race to Americans. *cough* Africa *cough*

You can also call the battle of Gettysburg, Lee's last gamble, because the confederacy was in dire need of a true victory that could bring international aid and force Union forces to return full focus on the Eastern front (at this point, in the western front, General Grant had already begun his plan for a seige of Vicksubrg, which would cut off the Confederacy's main waterways and drop their supply lines to levels that could not support long term warfare). People remember Battle of Gettysburg, mainly due to Lincoln's great speech, but it was Battle of Vicksburg at the same time that ultimately was more strategic to the eventual victory of the Union forces.

Still, I love the speech, especially his final sentences:
 

 

It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

 

-Abraham Lincoln, 1863

Yes, debate is good. Only when it is conducted civilly. Guys, I was a member of my school's Speech & Debate Team, and I was taught that "getting heated" was never okay.

But alright, I'll play along

The South: that's given, Slavery: a horrible institution. The North: If you were non-WASP, you faced discrimination add to that the fact that slavery continued in some areas in the Free States well into the 1840's.

My point: Both sides in the Civil War are guilty of many things. This war is not as clear cut as we desire it to be. Is any war ever?

Edit: What is the Soapbox?

 

Edit: What is the Soapbox?

It was the political discussion forum on GA. It got closed in December of 2012 because a couple people whined that they got their feelings hurt. It was my favorite forum.

Well for debate reasoning, I would point out that the Civil War really did not end economic slavery for African Americans in the deep south, in fact I would even say the Civil war replaced old human bondage slavery with new age economic slavery.

Even after Emancipation and the end of "slavery" through Constitutional 13th Amendment, it was hardly a fair society. Beyond just Jim Crow laws that are now remembered infamously, there was something far worse behind the new economics of the South.

Sharecropping began to grow in the Southern states as a new form of slavery based on economic production rather than human bondage. A majority were African descent, but there were now destituted white planters among this new lower class of society. Instead being owned by a person or family, a planter was indebted to the landowner for goods and "rent" provided on the land they grew on. In theory, if you had good harvests and good sales, then you could repay the landowner back and make a living for yourself. Instead, the reality was that debt kept growing and escalating from one generation of planters to the next.

It is not so dissimilar to our current debt crisis situation in the US, just like the planters. The American government today must borrow money from its citizens and foreign nations to fund its operations and services for its people. Theoretically if we had a bountiful harvest like the 1990's massive expansions, we would pay off all US national debts without issue, but during extreme downturns like the 2007-2008 Great Recession, our debt load grows incredibly high. As such the US has a deeper hole to dig out of and creditors who have far more influence on US policy and directions than even its own people, who elected officials to represent this government.

To me slavery is more than being kept in chains or made to work in fields of cotton; it is a loss of free expression, free exercise of decisions, and in the end free will itself for the individual as some one else dictates your behavior.

Drew,,,,

I don't think this conversation ever got heated. When you have people of different nations involved in a discussion, it is impossible to avoid some areas where misconceptions, misinformation, misperceptions, and misunderstandings will occur. 

Not once has there been name-calling involved here. Not once has anyone been singled out and attacked. Sounds to me like a bunch of adults having a spirited conversation.

Drew,,,,

 

I don't think this conversation ever got heated. When you have people of different nations involved in a discussion, it is impossible to avoid some areas where misconceptions, misinformation, misperceptions, and misunderstandings will occur. 

 

Not once has there been name-calling involved here. Not once has anyone been singled out and attacked. Sounds to me like a bunch of adults having a spirited conversation.

Sorry Carlos, I meant in the general sense, i.e. pointing out the flaws of the European powers in their imperialist ambitions (and can't have the "moral-high ground"), or in the case of the US, North and South pointing fingers at one another.

Everyone, I duly apologize if I made a personal attack on you all. My comments were not directed at an individual basis, but on international/political/cultural lines in general.

Addendum: To be clear, guys I enjoy being the devil's advocate, I find it an enjoyable exercise. As such I love hearing what you think on these matters.In any case, I try to look at both sides in any argument (and I tend to fall short) but it is something I strive for. So my statements are meant to get the greater picture of things

Edit: What is the Soapbox?

It was the political discussion forum on GA. It got closed in December of 2012 because a couple people whined that they got their feelings hurt. It was my favorite forum.

People whose feelings are easily hurt should never discuss politics.

In the Soapbox, too many people were discussing their feelings rather than politics.

Fine words. Trouble is his "new birth of freedom" didn't apply to "blacks" and Native Americans. So either they weren't "people" to Mr Lincoln, or he was more interested in making the historical sound bite

 

https://www.aclu.org/files/VRATimeline.html?redirect=timeline-history-voting-rights-act

Half full, half empty. He also signed the Emancipation Declaration. After hundreds of years of slavery, that was step one. We're not there yet, but each step brings us closer.

 

And I strongly object to the 'sound byte' comment. He never thought the GA would be so well remembered or go down in history as one of the finest pieces of oratory ever written.

 

I choose to believe we improve ourselves and our Union with each generation, but only if we use the past as a building block, and not just toss it away as imperfect.

The "sound bite" comment was perhaps, what we call in UK, "tongue in cheek" But Lincoln was nothing if not a very astute politician and he was very skilled at polishing his speeches for maximum impact on his audiences. He knew full well that his important speeches would be widely reported and would thus become a permanent printed record.

My issue with politicians - and that's what Lincoln was - is they always have an agenda that rarely coincides with the speeches they make. Worse, their speeches rarely reflect the actual facts and realities at the time those speeches are made. And despite the reverence shown by many Americans to Lincoln in general and to this speech in particular, the same holds true of the GA.

It's worth remembering that another great American, Martin Luther King, made particular reference to the shameful fact that universal sufferage still did not apply to all American "blacks" when he made his I Have A Dream speech in 1963 - 100 years later! (from the steps of the Lincoln Memorial)

.

 

It's worth remembering that another great American, Martin Luther King, made particular reference to the shameful fact that universal sufferage still did not apply to all American "blacks" when he made his I Have A Dream speech in 1963 - 100 years later! (from the steps of the Lincoln Memorial)

I haven't debated Zombie in a while, but it's usually quite fun

While the fact is true about US slowness in equality measures, we can also question why the Church of England had spent more thane 2 centuries after the abolition of slavery in the UK/territories to add a "black" archbishop to its ranks in 2005.

On its face, it's not a major issue to laymen Americans, the Church of England actually does possess political power through its seats in the House of Lords. By either design or negligence, minority representation within this branch of British government seems to have lagged far behind your mainstream as well. Some within your own government have criticized this as a matter of "institutional racism" that persists within British society even today.

Nowadays, it appears that these problems are starting to be addressed along with gender representation disparity within the Church of England, but like the US, it was a rather recent correction and I would question whether all traces of the root cause for it have been removed.

Some merit in your comments about the C of E, but I'd just point out first that the House of Lords bishops - the "Lords Spiritual" - are not part of government so the constitutional significance is immaterial, and second this aspect of "institutional racism" is a sideshow compared to the deliberate continuing disenfranchisement of black Americans 100 years and more after Mr Lincoln's fine sounding words

Please, do not act as if Europe is any better at race/ethnic relations than the US. Europeans are often far more blatant about their racism then most Americans. Besides, even the major cities of Europe lack the notable diversity of major American cities. I was shocked when I was in London and Paris how whitewashed those two cities were compared to New York or Philadelphia, etc. 

You treat Arabs far worse in Europe than Americans treat blacks.

TR--- have I told you how much I love your blog?

The treatment of darker immigrant from commonwealth nations has been less than spectacular in the UK. France's Algerian population is marginalized at best--won't even mention restriction on traditional/religious attire which would most likely bring about unanimity against it at SCOTUS. The Turkish labor in Germany is treated as well as we treat migrant workers.

We're all fucked up! That will not stop me from admiring people like Lincoln and Jefferson (yes, that Jefferson, the slave owner) or their positive contributions to our world. Not a single human, in thought or deed, has been, is, or will probably ever be perfect--I'll take them with their flaws, accept their positive contributions, and do my best to add a bit to what they left behind.

Finding fault in anything is easy, watch Fox News any day of the week. Finding fault and doing something positive to correct it is a thing of beauty. I've always try to remember the old adage of 'lead, follow, or get out of the way'. Complaining for the sake of complaining has never played a big part in my life.

Go ahead, call me an idealist. That would be a great compliment, and would place me in the company of some great people. And to quote the slogan on the back of one of my t-shirts: "I'm an American. Your Approval is not Required" Don't go dissing my people!

Please, do not act as if Europe is any better at race/ethnic relations than the US. Europeans are often far more blatant about their racism then most Americans. Besides, even the major cities of Europe lack the notable diversity of major American cities. I was shocked when I was in London and Paris how whitewashed those two cities were compared to New York or Philadelphia, etc. 

 

You treat Arabs far worse in Europe than Americans treat blacks.

TR--- have I told you how much I love your blog?

 

The treatment of darker immigrant from commonwealth nations has been less than spectacular in the UK. France's Algerian population is marginalized at best--won't even mention restriction on traditional/religious attire which would most likely bring about unanimity against it at SCOTUS. The Turkish labor in Germany is treated as well as we treat migrant workers.

 

We're all fucked up! That will not stop me from admiring people like Lincoln and Jefferson (yes, that Jefferson, the slave owner) or their positive contributions to our world. Not a single human, in thought or deed, has been, is, or will probably ever be perfect--I'll take them with their flaws, accept their positive contributions, and do my best to add a bit to what they left behind.

 

Finding fault in anything is easy, watch Fox News any day of the week. Finding fault and doing something positive to correct it is a thing of beauty. I've always try to remember the old adage of 'lead, follow, or get out of the way'. Complaining for the sake of complaining has never played a big part in my life.

 

Go ahead, call me an idealist. That would be a great compliment, and would place me in the company of some great people. And to quote the slogan on the back of one of my t-shirts: "I'm an American. Your Approval is not Required" Don't go dissing my people!

Guys, I wish I could "Like" these, but I reached my quota, so will stand in place!

What is the Soapbox?

Here's how it worked

Member A - Opening Post asking a question or giving a point of view

Often this was to get views and maybe increase knowledge and understanding.

Or it might be intentionally inflammatory

Now and again it was deliberately calculated to stamp on as many buttons as the member was able to

What happened next usually followed a predictable pattern....

Member B - replies with something adjacent to the OP

Member C - challenges something in Member B's post

Member B - objects to Member C's challenge

Member D - butts in with fresh allegations completely irrelevant to the OP or previous posts

...then all Hell lets loose

The big difference in Soapbox was that threads had a very long life. Even when you thought they were completely and absolutely stone cold dead, they could suddenly spring back to life with fresh fighting debating. Contrast with the blogs which just fade away and die and are soon forgotten

We're all fucked up! That will not stop me from admiring people like Lincoln and Jefferson (yes, that Jefferson, the slave owner) or their positive contributions to our world. Not a single human, in thought or deed, has been, is, or will probably ever be perfect--I'll take them with their flaws, accept their positive contributions, and do my best to add a bit to what they left behind.

True. But if you admire them as people then, as someone else said in a related thread, you have to admire their "sins" as well. And politicians are full of "sin". I may admire certain actions of politicians but I can't think of a single prominent politician I wholly admire as a person. Even Churchill was deeply flawed - he just happened to be right on the one thing that mattered at the time.

As for Lincoln he was a lawyer - I could leave it at that So he was highly skilled at manipulating language. We don't know a lot about him as a person, pretty much all there is are records of his actions, his correspondence and his speeches. It's entirely legitimate to call him out on his words "...government of the people, by the people, for the people..." because, though they may well be noble words that we all endorse, in Mr Lincoln's GA it was cant. Politicians do it all the time. Because Mr Lincoln's agenda was keeping the union. At all costs - including the continuance of slavery. Which would have to mean blacks excluded altogether from those fine words "...government of the people, by the people, for the people..." If you still don't believe Mr Lincoln's use of the word "people" excluded black slaves in the GA, he had made this very clear the previous year in his letter to the editor, New York Tribune 22 Aug 1862

    My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.

Being a lawyer, Mr Lincoln would have known full well he was being dishonest with these fine words. But he wasn't just being dishonest about "people". The USA believes in democracy and in the right to self-determination. But, as H L Menken noted, "The Union... fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves." Now consider this. The UK is also a union. Part of it tried to break away last year. No-one fought each other. No-one was killed. A legal process was put in place for a referendum. As it happens... nothing happened. Seems to me the UK exemplifies American values more than Mr Lincoln did.

Finding fault in anything is easy, watch Fox News any day of the week. Finding fault and doing something positive to correct it is a thing of beauty. I've always try to remember the old adage of 'lead, follow, or get out of the way'. Complaining for the sake of complaining has never played a big part in my life.

'lead, follow, or get out of the way' is the cause of much grief throughout history. It's toxic and potentially lethal. Examples include potential homicide as demonstrated in the Milgram Experiment, in various air accident reports where co-pilots "followed" the Captain's decisions and failed to challenge, and "group think" by boards and management teams such as NASA which contributed to the Challenger Space Shuttle disaster. And just look at the so-called Islamic State which is thriving on having strong leaders, indoctrinating and radicalizing "followers" and everyone else is "got out of the way" - generally with a bullet. A healthy modern democracy, society and business can only flourish if there are also people prepared to challenge, to call out politicians and overbearing leaders.

Please, do not act as if Europe is any better at race/ethnic relations than the US. Europeans are often far more blatant about their racism then most Americans. Besides, even the major cities of Europe lack the notable diversity of major American cities. I was shocked when I was in London and Paris how whitewashed those two cities were compared to New York or Philadelphia, etc. 

 

You treat Arabs far worse in Europe than Americans treat blacks.

I wasn't acting "as if Europe is any better at race/ethnic relations than the US" because, first of all, Europe is not one country just as the US is not one state and so I have no influence over or responsibility for what happens in other European countries. And second, my contribution was not about "who's better / worse" - what I did do was call out some hollow words of a long dead politician as cant. It's the duty of citizens in any democracy to challenge - as explained in my response to Carlos. Likewise the ethnic mix of London "compared to New York or Philadelphia" is not relevant - it's not a competition, and the migration history of London is entirely different from US cities for good reasons to do with a 2000 year history and geographic location, so to accuse London of being "whitewashed" is inappropriate and erroneous.. Likewise the generalized swipes "You treat Arabs far worse in Europe than Americans treat blacks" and "Europeans are often far more blatant about their racism then most Americans".

Zombie, that was brilliantly thought out