sandrewn Posted May 2, 2013 Posted May 2, 2013 Thanks Westie for - Review of English Jurisprudence - 101 - c. 1797 with regards to John Company. I some how missed that during my various chapter rereads ( I'll have to remind myself to look more closely between the lines from now on ). I am sure I will have other ignorant questions in the future, please feel free to correct them. Thanks in advance.
Mark Arbour Posted May 2, 2013 Author Posted May 2, 2013 Only the King can order Bertie home. Maidstone left England with a mandate from John Company, and as such may be de jure governor, but until letter's patent catch up with him, he does not yet have the authority of the King. He cannot order Bertie home; only take over as a Governor with similar authority to a manager. He has, for example, complete control over the affairs of the Company (effectively 90% of things), but things done in the Kings name - the Judiciary being a prime example - are not within his purview without th Letter's patent with the seal of the Privy Council. That's precisely so, and that's important. I would also suspect that it's an even bigger issue than that, since Bertie has considerable influence within John Company. So the 90% that Maidstone would exercise may be somewhat diminished by the fact that the man he is trying to displace is a person of some consequence.
Westie Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 That's precisely so, and that's important. I would also suspect that it's an even bigger issue than that, since Bertie has considerable influence within John Company. So the 90% that Maidstone would exercise may be somewhat diminished by the fact that the man he is trying to displace is a person of some consequence. We can also assume that Maidstone does not have access to anywhere near as much ready cash as the man he is trying to replace, and incumbency is always a stronger position to be in. If Bertie chooses not to recognise his own replacement, Maidstone can only fall back on promissory notes - i.e. a promise to pay from his accounts in London. Remember, nobody owes him anything out there, and more importantly John Company is not popular - especially among its own employees. They may decide to stay loyal to their King. If I were to make a guess, I would suggest that Granger will walk into an unholy mess when he arrives out there.... 1
centexhairysub Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 Luckily, Granger has a letter from the King and Privy council giving him extrodinary powers in naming the new or keeping the old governor in place. He may walk into a mess but he will be the one with the real POWER in the situation. I can't wait to see how he chooses to use it.
ricky Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 Although the amount has never been stated we know that the Earle of Bridgemont holds significant stock in Johns Company. It may turn out that Bridgemont gets wind of what is going on and gains controlling stock then send a letter granting Bertie his power of attorney. That would allow Bertie to stop Maidstone in his tracks. It would also make the father and son's relationship solid once again. With Lord Arbour any twist is possible. So Granger may get back to find Maidstone in chains and no issues at all. At least, not bad ones. George's orders allowing this to all play out sounds like someone is giving Maidstone enough rope to hang himself. Perhaps literally. It's also possible that Bridgemont is behind Maidstone because he needs to know where Bertie would stand when the choice is money or family. And with the privy council's letter of empowerment, Granger may walk in and be the solidifying party, the hangman or the one who has to take his brother into custody. Who knows, anything could happen.
Westie Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 Although the amount has never been stated we know that the Earle of Bridgemont holds significant stock in Johns Company. It may turn out that Bridgemont gets wind of what is going on and gains controlling stock then send a letter granting Bertie his power of attorney. That would allow Bertie to stop Maidstone in his tracks. It would also make the father and son's relationship solid once again. With Lord Arbour any twist is possible. So Granger may get back to find Maidstone in chains and no issues at all. At least, not bad ones. George's orders allowing this to all play out sounds like someone is giving Maidstone enough rope to hang himself. Perhaps literally. It's also possible that Bridgemont is behind Maidstone because he needs to know where Bertie would stand when the choice is money or family. And with the privy council's letter of empowerment, Granger may walk in and be the solidifying party, the hangman or the one who has to take his brother into custody. Who knows, anything could happen. John Company - The British East India Company - was at this time in terminal decline. Increasingly reliant on Parliament for help, it is unlikely that a man so shrewd as The Earl of Bridgemont would invest too heavily in the company. And indeed, the Government held a controlling interest which was unassailable. Moreover, the debts of the company were a staggering £15m (close to £1bn in today's money). I think that it would be incredibly unlikely that the Earl would get involved in his Son's finances again - especially after the debacle with Freddie and Davina trying to con him. 1
sandrewn Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 Golly gee wilikers, a tinsy winsy question sparked all of this. I have one more, please. Just before the attack on Valdiva, Granger stated that if he and Calvert should both fall, then Somers would take over as Mission Commander. Does that imply that he would then have the same Empowerment that was granted to Grander with regards to Amboyna?
sandrewn Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 I wish there was spell check, make that Granger instead of Grander.
ricky Posted May 3, 2013 Posted May 3, 2013 good question. But I don't think that is transferable. It was a judgement in confidence that cannot be bestowed on someone by proxy.
centexhairysub Posted May 5, 2013 Posted May 5, 2013 A new chapter is up and well, it was just great to spend part of my evening with Granger... I have missed him so much, it was like an old friend coming for supper. I really thought that Granger was able to come up with an idea that covered all the bases for what they are trying to do; plus it even will help out the Vicery, never a bad thing to make a friend of someone in that position even if they are enemies at the moment. I can't wait to see the look on everyone's face when they return to England with that amount of treasure... I was really dissapointed in how Calvert's men are acting, well all except Gaitling. I can't believe even greed would cause true gentlemen to act that way... I guess Calvert could advise them that Granger was willing to let them have their capture and he would keep his, see how they like that... I do hope they find the Vulture on the way over and they get to hang a few people, I don't suppose we could be lucky enough for Maidstone to be aboard... Plus, I guess it will be more fun for him to be in place and for him to believe he has everything under control when Granger shows up with his letter of authority from the King and the Privy Council... I can't wait to see his reaction; we may get to find out how the color puce looks on a human face. Can't wait for the next installment, keep up the great work Mark...
Mark Arbour Posted May 5, 2013 Author Posted May 5, 2013 The next installment won't be as long of a wait as this one. it's already in editing. Probably within a week. 2
ricky Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 Sweet to both comments! I have an additional thought here. If the ship is to be bought back before they enter port then the additional 500 reals will have to already be on board and sorted out. Of course since it is a treasure ship, that should be no problem. And perhaps Mr Gatling will receive a tip? And perhaps the Viceroy will include a little extra for the return of the Lorenzo? I fear Mr Gatling will be lost through all this. Not to injury but to achievement. He will certainly be ready for command. Perhaps just a sloop but his own command nonetheless. Perhaps the vulture? Would Granger not be questioned as to why he sold the ship back? Surely the wealth on board is of greater value than he is selling the ship back for. His enemies will surely suggest that he is guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy. Perhaps even that his loyalties are mixed? And will his most Catholic Majesty see fit to further honor him with perhaps a villa in Spain for his service during a time of war? I can see Mr Fox having a fiel day with this information. Especially if he is aligned with Maidstone. Will we ever find out where the leak is that is making his enemies so well informed? If it turns out to be Mr Fox and we could prove it George may outrank his father when the king is done. The King's pleasure in stretching the neck of Mr Fox would be so great. Or perhaps the King would do it off handedly by rewarding Granger with an elevation of his father instead. But we still have to see what treachery Maidstone is up to. And is Caroline working to cut Maidstone off at the knees in England as well? She needs to earn her way back into the King's good graces again. Perhaps the queen will want to see her bastard grandson? (There IS a queen, right?)
Daddydavek Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 I loved the latest chapter. Especially how well George was able to think his way through to a solution that was in the interest of both parties. I thought the portrayal of Calvert's crew as being unhappy with sharing all their spoils was accurate and to be expected. I suspect they will be more than happy to share the spoils of Granger's haul. For people who have little, and most seamen could carry all their possessions in a sea bag, getting a reduced share of the spoils that they underwent the risk for was understandable. Getting Granger's ship fully seaworthy is a priority for the voyage still ahead. It seems there is room for plenty of adventures before they make their destination. 1
sandrewn Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 I don't know how much the pay raise was after the mutiny (I suspect not much). However before it the apprx annual salary for Landsman (less 1 yr service) was 10 Pds, Ordinary (1 to 2 yrs) was 11 Pds and Able Bodied (2 yrs +) was 14 Pds. Lieutenants received 8 Pds a month (regardless of position). Still a quantum leap from the men. The average person of the time didn't have a long life expectancy (as we know it). So with the possible prize money even the men might get from this adventure was as much or more than a life time (10 - 20 yrs ) spent at sea with the navy. Though even this was also heavily skewed towards the Captain and other Officers. This was one of the few articles from the Nore mutiny that Granger had been sympathetic to. It is difficult to image what the men would do afterwards (I will admit I buy Loto every week).
Mark Arbour Posted May 7, 2013 Author Posted May 7, 2013 Here's a chart showing the distribution of prize money. And here's some info from Wikipedia: Allocation was by eighths. Two eighths of the prize money went to the captain, generally propelling him upwards in political and financial circles. One eighth of the money went to the admiral or commander and chief who signed the ship's written orders (unless the orders came directly from the Admiralty in London, in which case this eighth also went to the captain). One eighth was divided among the lieutenants, sailing master, and captain of marines if any. One eighth was divided among the wardroom warrant officers (surgeon, purser, and chaplain), standing warrant officers (carpenter, boatswain, and gunner), lieutenant of marines, and the master's mates. One eighth was divided among the junior warrant and petty officers, their mates, sergeants of marines, captain's clerk, surgeon's mates, and midshipmen. The final two eighths were divided among the crew, with able and specialist seamen receiving larger shares than ordinary seamen, landsmen, and boys.[1][2] ExamplesPerhaps the greatest amount of prize money awarded was for the capture of the Spanish frigate Hermione on 31 May 1762 by the British frigate Active and sloop Favourite. The two captains, Herbert Sawyer and Philemon Pownoll, received about £65,000 apiece, while each seaman and Marine got £482-485.[3][4][5] In January 1807, the frigate Caroline took the Spanish ship San Rafael as a prize, netting Captain Peter Rainier £52,000.[4] The prize money from the capture of the Spanish frigates Thetis and Santa Brigada, £652,000, was split up among the crews of four British frigates, with each captain being awarded £40,730 each and the Seaman each receiving £182 4s 9¾d or the equivalent of 10 years pay.[2] 1
ricky Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 (edited) that is so cool and one of the thing I love about this story. So much history learned mixed with so much tasty flesh. We need Mr Llewelyn back. **snicker** Edited May 7, 2013 by ricky 1
centexhairysub Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 Okay, I have to admit I know very little about the matter of the prize money, so I have a few questions... Okay, since they were sent at the behest of the government, wouldn't this make it tied to the Admiralty and make the Captain eligible for 3/8's? Calvert really isn't a Captain or even a Commander, but just a Lieutenant that was given command over a prize ship; so does he share in the Captain's share or is he in with the rest of the Senior Wardroom Officers? The 1,200,000 reals would have been worth about 360,000 pounds at the time. This would mean that Granger and or Calvert would split about 135,000 pounds. I think Granger should get it all but... Then the about 45,000 pounds among the Senior Wardroom Officers, and then the breakdown goes from there... My next question is that since they captured the Santa Clarita and they had to transfer over officers and men to work it some were obviously bumped up. Like Gatling is now acting Lt, so does he and the others get the share based on where they are when the voyage started, the capture took place, or when the voyage ends? Plus, you know they are going to lose a few people between now and the end of the voyage to fighting, disease, and accidents; what happens to their share? If they don't survive, does it go to next of kin or do they lose out on their share? Kingsdale probably just got enough to pay his place out of debt and fix it up really nice, especially if he will let Caroline help him and invest what he gets the right way.... 1
ricky Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 One thing that some might have missed is that Granger won't be there when the sale is done so Acting Captain Calvert will receive the other half separately from Granger thus making sure that it does not look like Granger orchestrated the whole thing. That also keeps them having to talk about splitting things up. Although it might skew things a bit if their cadre are not the same size. Geeze no wonder these things got tied up in the Admiralty for years sorting things out. 1
sandrewn Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 Speaking of prizes, don't forget the 5 whalers west coast, 1 whaler east coast, 1 privateer and one Spanish frigate (so far). Which reminds me what ever happened prize wise with the Emeraude/ Floreal /Rattlesnake?
ricky Posted May 8, 2013 Posted May 8, 2013 Hopefully the next chapter will be here by thursday morning. I could really use something to listen to on the six hour flight to San Fun Disco. I have a show there. And the flight is super boring. Just finishing a complete listen to and I'm nearing the end of St Vincent again. I figure that by flight time I'll be ready for the sweet new chapter just before I land.
ricky Posted May 8, 2013 Posted May 8, 2013 A question. Lord granger was granted a seat in the house of lords. Since he is away, must he give his proxy to someone in his absence? If so, who would be he proxy? Cavendish? His father? Must it be someone who already has a seat? Does his father have a seat? And what would be expected of him when he was home in regards to having a seat?
centexhairysub Posted May 8, 2013 Posted May 8, 2013 A question. Lord granger was granted a seat in the house of lords. Since he is away, must he give his proxy to someone in his absence? If so, who would be he proxy? Cavendish? His father? Must it be someone who already has a seat? Does his father have a seat? And what would be expected of him when he was home in regards to having a seat? You don't give your seat in the House of Lords to someone in proxy, not even your vote. If you miss a vote, you just miss a vote. As an Earl, Granger's father has a seat in the House of Lords. Cavendish is an elected member of the House of Commons. Cavendish's father has a seat in the House of Lords and he may as well one day but you can't sit in both, at least that is my understanding... Westie, are you around??? Is this right???
ricky Posted May 8, 2013 Posted May 8, 2013 After reading ahead, I found that his father does hold a seat.
Westie Posted May 8, 2013 Posted May 8, 2013 (edited) You don't give your seat in the House of Lords to someone in proxy, not even your vote. If you miss a vote, you just miss a vote. As an Earl, Granger's father has a seat in the House of Lords. Cavendish is an elected member of the House of Commons. Cavendish's father has a seat in the House of Lords and he may as well one day but you can't sit in both, at least that is my understanding... Westie, are you around??? Is this right??? Essentially you are correct. Granger will have a leave of absence from the house while at sea. Lord Cavendish is an MP, but will cease to be so if he inherits his father's title (immediately upon his father's death, assuming he is the eldest son). He could feasibly be called to the house of Lords early using an instrument called a "writ of acceleration". This is an obscure instrument that would most likely be used in order to relieve Cavendish of his seat in the House of Commons. Since many constituencies were controlled by 10 or fewer voters, it was possible for schemes to be hatched to essentially "take" a seat through corrupt means. Edit to add - the fact that we refer to him as "Lord Cavendish" indicates that he is in fact a second son, as the heir would use a subsidiary title Edited May 8, 2013 by Westie
Westie Posted May 8, 2013 Posted May 8, 2013 Okay, I have to admit I know very little about the matter of the prize money, so I have a few questions... Okay, since they were sent at the behest of the government, wouldn't this make it tied to the Admiralty and make the Captain eligible for 3/8's? Calvert really isn't a Captain or even a Commander, but just a Lieutenant that was given command over a prize ship; so does he share in the Captain's share or is he in with the rest of the Senior Wardroom Officers? The 1,200,000 reals would have been worth about 360,000 pounds at the time. This would mean that Granger and or Calvert would split about 135,000 pounds. I think Granger should get it all but... Then the about 45,000 pounds among the Senior Wardroom Officers, and then the breakdown goes from there... My next question is that since they captured the Santa Clarita and they had to transfer over officers and men to work it some were obviously bumped up. Like Gatling is now acting Lt, so does he and the others get the share based on where they are when the voyage started, the capture took place, or when the voyage ends? Plus, you know they are going to lose a few people between now and the end of the voyage to fighting, disease, and accidents; what happens to their share? If they don't survive, does it go to next of kin or do they lose out on their share? Kingsdale probably just got enough to pay his place out of debt and fix it up really nice, especially if he will let Caroline help him and invest what he gets the right way.... Calvert will be treated as a Captain of his own vessel. Granger is a captain of his vessel, but he will receive the 1/8th share due to the Admiral (as he is under admiralty orders). Calvert and Granger agreed to share the prize money equally, so it will first be split between the ships, and then into 1/8th shares. Note that while Granger keeps HIS admirals share, Calvert has to surrender his to Granger (as h is under Granger's Orders). So in fact, of the total prize money, Granger will receive 4/16th's in total (1/4), whereas Calvert will receive half of that. Shares are divided based on the actual rank at the time of capture. Note that while whoever commands a ship is always a "captain" (while in command even if the rank is not held), officers of "acting" ranks do not get bumped up. If thy die later in the voyage, their share is supposed to be paid to their estate. 1
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