Odyssey

[ricky]

I thought he was a merchant now?  Granger had no problem subtly threatening him with going before the mast or being put ashore. I though that was pretty daring. He Jacobs and winkler would not have been able to do squat.

 

We never heard WHY he defected. He was in a plumb seat, A ship's captain. Can't say a man of his station would be feeling much tyranny. Perhaps Winkler or Jacobs will discover the reason.

 

So we have a battle that granger will not be able to fight in.  **sigh**

[centexhairysub]

Too bad his services were still needed. Granger could have called the marines up from the boat and arrested Travers. Then before they drug him off he could have whisperd, "Your son was a tight f_ck, and now I've screwed you too!" Then smiled and walked away.

 

I just thing Granger is to classy and politically savvy to pull something like this. 

[ricky]

I just thing Granger is to classy and politically savvy to pull something like this. 

Ya, he is. But I'm not. He's really responsible for John Travers misery in life. And that makes him partially responsible for his death.

 

I'd want a little retribution.

[JimCarter]

Ya, he is. But I'm not. He's really responsible for John Travers misery in life. And that makes him partially responsible for his death.

 

I'd want a little retribution. :evil:I

 

I think the way Granger handled the elder Travers is much better.  He gave him enough food for though that the Elder Travers will feel the guilt and understanding of how much damage he did to his son.  I think he will be living with some guilt from now on that he had never felt before.

[BeysJoshersLepton V2]

Another fantastic chapter, you do spoil us! 

[JimCarter]

A pleasant surprise to see a new chapter tonight.  Wonderful job as usual.  I am concerned Berry.  Since he is younger (on the captains list), he should not have expected to be named captain of the fleet.  I think Mark has laid the groundwork to make this more than just a passing thing.

 

Glad to see George has found someone to keep him drained and happy in that department.

[centexhairysub]

WOW, we are going to get spoiled; another chapter of this wonderful saga so soon after the last...  I think this story just keeps getting better and better. 

 

I am so glad that Granger is going to get to be in the thick of this battle.  This is one of the most important and decisive naval engagements of the last 500 years.  Only Midway and the Battle of Tsushima are as important and as decisive as the Battle of the Nile; because of the nature of the attack, I do not include nor do most historians the attack on Pearl Harbor.  Granger is going to have a front row seat and with the skill that Mark has in writing I think we are all in for a real treat. 

 

I am more concerned about the news from home than I am about Berry reaction.  As dissapointing as Berry's reaction might be, the faith and loyalty that Nelson has for Granger will keep that in check.  I am glad to see that Caroline is moving to regain her position and footing in society.  The issue of her inability to perhaps carry another child is truly sad but may not be accurate.  The fact that Freddie and Davina named the child George maybe because of the closer relationship the Earl as with the King, but it could also signify other issues ahead...

[ricky]

An Excellent surprise. I was intrigued by the news from home as well. Lady Granger in a gambling establishment? Interesting. Either it is an investment or she is keeping an eye on Davina. Or both!

 

It will be something if Freddie's George looks just like George. I suspect they will say they were trying to gain favor back with the king, but it that kid is blonde and blue there is going to be some interesting conversations. Especially if Freddie resents the boy.

 

The battle is going to be spectacular, but Winkler is gone. *sigh* heartbreak! And what of Maidstone and the letters?

 

Thanks for the treat!

[JimCarter]

I was expecting the start of the battle today and of course, you didn't let us down.  As I said in my review you do such a wonderful job of including enough human interaction to make us feel like we are with these people not just hearing about the battle from a storyteller.  Thanks again for another fantastic chapter.

[centexhairysub]

Magnificent...

 

The writing in this chapter was truly just first rate...  I really felt as if I was there watching the battle unfold.  The accuracy of the historical battle was weaved into the storyline just perfectly...

 

Granger is in the thick of it where you would expect him to be.  Nelson truly was a great commander.  His inspiration made those that served him love him.  What he spoke when he was injured is said to be the words he spoke in actuality at the battle, great touch. 

 

Granger is able to read and understand those around him.  He seems to understand so much better than others what motivates others and why they do so much of what they do.  This is one of the secrets to his success. 

 

The second part of the battle should be equally grand.  The destruction of the Orient was said to be truly horrible... 

 

You are spoiling us rotten with this pace of posting but I hope you don't stop....  LOL...

[Guest irishmom60]

I really appreciated the battle diagram. It made it much easier to follow the battle. Your historical works are so well written, I have become emotionally attached to all your characters. Thank you for all your hard work (and the extra chapter).

[ricky]

GLORIOUS! And as usual, posted JUST like the two previous, at a moment when it would be impossible for me to read them. I swear you have spies watching for just that moment. lol

 

So, a truly wondrous battle! SO life like in the telling. The map of the battle adds so much clarity. What are the light red markers denoting? As opposed to the dark red?

 

Will Nelson rejoin the cadre on deck for the next day or does he spend the rest of the battle in sickbay?

 

I would imagine maneuvering in the dark after the french ships surrendered would be difficult. Finding the next foe without running into them since the captured ships flew no lights. Did they stay put until first light and then renew the action? I can't wait for the continuation of the battle. Thanks Mark for making these rapid succession. I figure the next chapter of the battle will be just as I'm boarding my flight tomorrow. lol

And no, I'm not telling you when that is, you'll just have to ask your spies.

[Mark Arbour]

GLORIOUS! And as usual, posted JUST like the two previous, at a moment when it would be impossible for me to read them. I swear you have spies watching for just that moment. lol

 

So, a truly wondrous battle! SO life like in the telling. The map of the battle adds so much clarity. What are the light red markers denoting? As opposed to the dark red?

 

 

The red markers are the British ships (you got that).  In some places they're lighter colored, which indicates that they stopped to fight there, but then went on further (dark color).  For example, the Theseus is lighter colored when she anchored next to Guerrier, because then when Guerrier surrendered she went further down the line to battle the Spartiate and Aquilon.

 

Will Nelson rejoin the cadre on deck for the next day or does he spend the rest of the battle in sickbay?

 

 

Nelson comes back up on deck when the L'Orient catches fire.  Perhaps he had  pyromaniac impulses.

I

would imagine maneuvering in the dark after the french ships surrendered would be difficult. Finding the next foe without running into them since the captured ships flew no lights. Did they stay put until first light and then renew the action? I can't wait for the continuation of the battle. Thanks Mark for making these rapid succession. I figure the next chapter of the battle will be just as I'm boarding my flight tomorrow. lol

And no, I'm not telling you when that is, you'll just have to ask your spies.

 

 

 

Well, if they take charge of the surrendered French ships (which they did in the van), that helps.   L'Orient must have been like a huge lantern, illuminating things for a while.  Eventually, though, action died down and resumed the next morning.

[ricky]

Thanks!

[sandrewn]

This battle was one the most significant British naval victories in history. After this and throughout the Napoleonics Wars, England remained the dominant force in the Mediterranean Sea. However it has been said that by leaving the transports intact ( I know, Nelson couldn't find them, but he didn't really try  to after the battle), this allowed the war(s) to continue on longer. Those transports eventually allowed Napoleon to return to France with most of his senior officers. Many of whom would become his General Staff and most important advisiors in the years to come.

[Mark Arbour]

This battle was one the most significant British naval victories in history. After this and throughout the Napoleonics Wars, England remained the dominant force in the Mediterranean Sea. However it has been said that by leaving the transports intact ( I know, Nelson couldn't find them, but he didn't really try  to after the battle), this allowed the war(s) to continue on longer. Those transports eventually allowed Napoleon to return to France with most of his senior officers. Many of whom would become his General Staff and most important advisiors in the years to come.

 

I'm with you on the first two sentences, but not so much after that. 

 

Actually, as we'll see in the next chapter, Nelson's fleet wasn't in any condition to rush out and try to find the transports.  Most of the ships had damage.  The fact that the Guillaume Tell and Genereux would escape from the battle the next day illustrates the relative inability of the fleet to mount an offensive strike.  And even if some ships, like Audacious and Defense, were largely intact, the men were no doubt exhausted, and those ships and men would be needed to help repair the others, and their prizes. 

 

Further, Napoleon didn't return to France on his transports.  Because of British supremacy in the Mediterranean Sea, he was forced to slink back to France aboard a frigate (they are indeed fast!), leaving his army to languish until a British force defeated them a year or so later. 

Edited August 4, 2013 by Mark Arbour

[sandrewn]

I, unlike you didn't take that one extra step to check my facts (sigh). I took what I read in Wiki (see below) and jumped (foolishly) to my conclusion. Bad on me.

 

In spite of the overwhelming British victory in the climactic battle, the campaign has sometimes been considered a strategic success for France. Historian Edward Ingram has noted that if Nelson had successfully intercepted Bonaparte at sea as ordered, the ensuing battle could have annihilated both the French fleet and the transports. As it was, Bonaparte was free to continue the war in the Middle East and later to return to Europe personally unscathed.^[195] The potential of a successful engagement at sea to change the course of history is underscored by the list of French army officers carried aboard the convoy who later formed the core of the generals and marshals under Emperor Napoleon. In addition to Bonaparte himself, Louis Alexandre Berthier, Auguste de Marmont, Jean Lannes, Joachim Murat, Louis Desaix, Jean Reynier, Antoine-François Andréossy, Jean-Andoche Junot, Louis-Nicolas Davout and Dumas were all passengers on the cramped Mediterranean crossing.^[196]

 

 

Well at least this got some activity going again in this forum.

[Mark Arbour]

I, unlike you didn't take that one extra step to check my facts (sigh). I took what I read in Wiki (see below) and jumped (foolishly) to my conclusion. Bad on me.

 

In spite of the overwhelming British victory in the climactic battle, the campaign has sometimes been considered a strategic success for France. Historian Edward Ingram has noted that if Nelson had successfully intercepted Bonaparte at sea as ordered, the ensuing battle could have annihilated both the French fleet and the transports. As it was, Bonaparte was free to continue the war in the Middle East and later to return to Europe personally unscathed.^[195] The potential of a successful engagement at sea to change the course of history is underscored by the list of French army officers carried aboard the convoy who later formed the core of the generals and marshals under Emperor Napoleon. In addition to Bonaparte himself, Louis Alexandre Berthier, Auguste de Marmont, Jean Lannes, Joachim Murat, Louis Desaix, Jean Reynier, Antoine-François Andréossy, Jean-Andoche Junot, Louis-Nicolas Davout and Dumas were all passengers on the cramped Mediterranean crossing.^[196]

 

 

Well at least this got some activity going again in this forum.

 

I'm glad you posted this!  I totally disagree with Mr. Ingram.  Nelson's complete victory at the Nile was, in my opinion, largely possible because De Brueys had his ships anchored.  If they would have been at sea, and the French would have been more mobile, I suspect that more of them would have been able to escape.  I also think that he ignores the inherent problems that huge battle would have caused if it had been at sea.  Here are some things to consider:

 

1.  Nelson's ships were badly damaged during the Battle of the Nile.  There is no reason to believe this would not have been the case if the battle had been fought at sea.  How would Nelson have captured the transports with an incapacitated fleet? 

2.  The transports would most likely have sailed on, either back to Toulon (most likely) or to Alexandria during the battle.  Nelson didn't have frigates to hound and pursue them, so how would he have caught up with them?  It is worth referencing the Glorious First of June, where Howe won a victory over the French fleet, but allowed the vital grain convoy to get through to France.  I think the same thing would have happened here.

3.  I think the battle would have been harder for the British for two reasons.  The first is that the French ships were faster and more maneuverable (in general), but the second (and more important) reason is that the French fleet would have been ready for battle.  At the Nile, they were not.  They did not expect to be engaged on the landward side (there were stored piled amongst those guns on some ships), they were undermanned because a large number of sailors were out scouring for provisions, and they started the battle with their captains frantically trying to get back to their ships after being aboard the flagship. 

 

I think that if the battle had been fought at sea, Nelson would still have achieved a victory, but one where he captured 3-4 ships, and the transports would have escaped back to France with Napoleon on board (along with his bevy of generals).  While Napoleon would not have conquered Egypt, he'd be back in France with his army of some 40,000 trained veterans, ready to cause further mischief.  Instead, that army ended up being decimated in Egypt and the Levant. 

Edited August 4, 2013 by Mark Arbour

[ricky]

From a layperson's view I would like to say that the carnage that was so well displayed that I sat in awe. It amazed me that they could recover at all. The decimation on both sides was inconceivable. And repairs are all but unthinkable. The problems of stores shortages and stores that would be lost because of damage or sea water, the sorting of the good from the bad, shifting from ship to ship while repairs were made, the injured mended, the dead buried. And then the wood and manpower required to put things to right, maintaining the prisoners etc. It's a herculean effort. And the prisoners paroled, would they not be left short handed for their prizes? And sending them ashore would be akin to a death warrant wouldn't it? They were after all invaders. And maintaining so many wounded! Simply overwhelming are the numbers. And so many more would die from their injuries.

It's staggering in the scope of it all.

 

Well told Lord Arbour. And yet, we have Maidstone to consider. Will Granger be given over to a frigate to carry dispatches home and recover his own ship Will Donagal  attend him on his trek back to England? I'm sure that Nelson will want Granger to hurry back with the news.

 

So what's next my lord?

[Pete Bruno]

Let this be a lesson to all the young readers here at GA; DO NOT POST DURING COCKTAIL HOUR!   And yes Mark before you read me, I'm aware of the time.  But it's Sunday and cocktail hour begins at three   Anyway, I meant to type: "and retelling them in a compelling way is an equally difficult feat that you have accomplished."  I'm just always so anxious to heap praise on you that I sometimes forget to proof read. 

Again, great job.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Pete Bruno

[Mark Arbour]

From a layperson's view I would like to say that the carnage that was so well displayed that I sat in awe. It amazed me that they could recover at all. The decimation on both sides was inconceivable. And repairs are all but unthinkable. The problems of stores shortages and stores that would be lost because of damage or sea water, the sorting of the good from the bad, shifting from ship to ship while repairs were made, the injured mended, the dead buried. And then the wood and manpower required to put things to right, maintaining the prisoners etc. It's a herculean effort. And the prisoners paroled, would they not be left short handed for their prizes? And sending them ashore would be akin to a death warrant wouldn't it? They were after all invaders. And maintaining so many wounded! Simply overwhelming are the numbers. And so many more would die from their injuries.

It's staggering in the scope of it all.

 

 

You're right, in that they would have a massive task in front of them, but the prisoners would not be much of a problem.  First of all, they'll want to be rid of them (most of them...they'll hang on to the prisoners that are skilled) because they'll be more of a nuisance than anything. They'd have to be guarded, and watched, and they probably wouldn't work all that hard without significant supervision, and worst of all, they'd have to be fed.  They wouldn't need them for the voyage home, because they'll draft small prize crews from their own ships to sail them back to England.  Besides, prisoners could potentially retake the ship! 

 

Landing them ashore is relatively easy, since the French army is there.  Granted, they'd probably need a military escort to protect them at first, but I would think the French would provide that to acquire the return of their own men.

[Pete Bruno]

"Why thank you. There's plenty of things Granger will have to deal with before Trafalgar. Maybe I'll let him live through Trafalgar, but then give him a groin wound so his dick doesn't work. No...he'd just turn into a total bottom then. ;-)"

 

Well hell he's damn near that now!  I think you should turn him into a writer ;-)

Edited August 5, 2013 by Pete Bruno

[ricky]

"Why thank you. There's plenty of things Granger will have to deal with before Trafalgar. Maybe I'll let him live through Trafalgar, but then give him a groin wound so his dick doesn't work. No...he'd just turn into a total bottom then. ;-)"

 

Well hell he's damn near that now!  I think you turn him into a writer ;-)

HA!

ROTFLMAO!

[JimCarter]

From a layperson's view I would like to say that the carnage that was so well displayed that I sat in awe. It amazed me that they could recover at all. The decimation on both sides was inconceivable. And repairs are all but unthinkable. The problems of stores shortages and stores that would be lost because of damage or sea water, the sorting of the good from the bad, shifting from ship to ship while repairs were made, the injured mended, the dead buried. And then the wood and manpower required to put things to right, maintaining the prisoners etc. It's a herculean effort. And the prisoners paroled, would they not be left short handed for their prizes? And sending them ashore would be akin to a death warrant wouldn't it? They were after all invaders. And maintaining so many wounded! Simply overwhelming are the numbers. And so many more would die from their injuries.

It's staggering in the scope of it all.

 

Well told Lord Arbour. And yet, we have Maidstone to consider. Will Granger be given over to a frigate to carry dispatches home and recover his own ship Will Donagal  attend him on his trek back to England? I'm sure that Nelson will want Granger to hurry back with the news.

 

So what's next my lord?

 

Good job Ricky.

[ricky]

Good job Ricky.

Be still my heart. 0.0