Spineless Students and Stupid Teachers

[Razor]

THE SETTING: Economics, third block.

 

THE SETUP: A problem dealing with marginal cost.

 

Marginal cost is the cost of producing a good or service. It is a summation of the equipment, labor, time, and other valued things used to produce a product.

 

THE TABLE:

 

Marginal Cost of Producing a Dozen Tortillas at the Amazing Tortilla Company

 

Dozens per day / Marginal Cost

 

Up to 500 / .50

501 to 1000 / .50

1,001 to 1,500 / .75

1,501 to 2,000 / .75

2,001 to 2,500 / 1.00

2,501 to 3,000 / 1.00

 

 

PROBLEM 1: Supposing the business could charge no more than .60 per dozen. HOw many would they want to produce each day at that price? Why?

 

ANSWER: 1,000, because the marginal cost is still low enough, and price high enough, to make the greatest possible profit.

 

 

 

 

THIS IS WHERE THINGS GOT UGLY!

 

 

PROBLEM 2: If the price increased from .60 to .80 per dozen, would the business want to sell more tortillas each day? Why?

 

MY ANSWER, AND THE SMART KIDS' ANSWER: No. They would want to sell the same amount, because at that same amount they would make a greater profit. Producing more would create an inferior profit for the company.

 

 

TEACHER'S ANSWER: Yeah, they're expanding. (with nothing to explain or back his answer...)

 

 

 

 

SO, I argued him down about it. I tried over and over to explain my logic and math, and let him know that he was indeed incorrect. No one else spoke up. They were perfectly content to sit there and let the teacher tell them the wrong answer, knowing he was wrong, and just accept it. The reason America is falling behind other countries is not because we don't go to school long enough, or anything like that. It's our teachers who can't teach, and our students who won't stand up for their rights. I hope the day comes soon when they're both ashamed of their actions.

 

 

 

A second example... I was teaching my little sister math. The teacher had given them a series of figures, and told them that base multiplied by height will give the area of the figure every time. I was confused; the area of a triangle is NOT found that way. You must half your answer, because of the concept behind it. You add in a triangle of the same size to make it a quadrilateral so that the formula basexheight= area will work, and then you half your answer because the triangle is only half the quadrilateral.

 

The worksheet was one of those that the answer corresponds to a letter and spells out something...

 

Instead of teaching the concept behind this, she lied to her students. She halved the measure of each base on each triangle so that it would correspond to the letter it needed to. She was quite content to let them continue thinking this, even though it is incorrect.

 

What kind of teachers do we have today? How is this going on without the parents getting involved? How can people even call themselves parents if they don't pay enough attention to their child's education to notice something this seriously, horribly wrong? Is it the complacency and faith we place in our education system?

 

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM, AND HOW DO WE FIX IT?

[Mikie]

wow teachers amaze me.

My algebra 2 teacher makes all kinds of mistakes all the time and you just hear kids randomly shouting out what she did wrong even though she's trying to do it right... and this is the same lady that's gonna teach my AP stats next year.... hmmmm

But yeah I would never hesitate to correct a teacher hehehe.

But I definitely think that teachers shouldn't be cutting corners or telling the wrong answers, and students shouldn't just sit and listen to what they have to say (unless you have a sub and your regular teacher tells you to just ignore whatever they say; yes we have a sub that is this bad that you just have to ignore him)

ETA: Good job correcting your teacher when noone else would.

Edited February 7, 2007 by TheNightB4

[Wingless]

well, I wouldn't really know.....I don't actually pay attention to any of my math teachers. I learn by reading and practicing. If I do it long enough and get a feel for it, then I know it. (plus, I'm asian... Math's simple for me...) All of my teachers are pretty good this year, except for my Bio teacher. He doesn't even teach...But since his tests are simple enough, I'm doing fine.

[Myk]

I have to be honest...there are some pretty crappy teachers out there. Unfortunately so many teachers are needed that you can't depend on having everyone of them be great...sometimes not even good. For the most part teachers at least try and even the best teacher is human and thus can easily make a mistake.

 

As for students most of them are like a sponge. Even in some university classes the prof will walk in and introduce himself...do students pay attention....not really...they write down his name! As if it is too hard to remember. It is sad but for the most part class has been turned into a 'production line' of graduates as opposed to critical thinkers. As a student I can honestly say it is us, the student's fault. But it isn't any easier when you have to take class with 400 other people...stupid university

 

For parents...and I find this applies to everyone in the western world about all kinds of problems. We are too lazy/busy to care. Everyone is running around trying to do all the little things and we just let some of the big life things fall through the cracks. The phrase 'ignorance is bliss' applies to a great many things!

 

Greg

[Xiao_Chun]

THE SETTING: Economics, third block.

 

THE SETUP: A problem dealing with marginal cost.

 

Marginal cost is the cost of producing a good or service. It is a summation of the equipment, labor, time, and other valued things used to produce a product.

 

THE TABLE:

 

Marginal Cost of Producing a Dozen Tortillas at the Amazing Tortilla Company

 

Dozens per day / Marginal Cost

 

Up to 500 / .50

501 to 1000 / .50

1,001 to 1,500 / .75

1,501 to 2,000 / .75

2,001 to 2,500 / 1.00

2,501 to 3,000 / 1.00

PROBLEM 1: Supposing the business could charge no more than .60 per dozen. HOw many would they want to produce each day at that price? Why?

 

ANSWER: 1,000, because the marginal cost is still low enough, and price high enough, to make the greatest possible profit.

THIS IS WHERE THINGS GOT UGLY!

PROBLEM 2: If the price increased from .60 to .80 per dozen, would the business want to sell more tortillas each day? Why?

Hi Razor.

 

The definition that your teacher gave of the Marginal Cost is incorrect. The correct definition is:

 

Marginal Cost is the increase in total cost resulting from producing additional unit of output. In your example, the marginal cost is the cost of producing one additional (dozen of) tortilla.

 

Now, let

Edited February 7, 2007 by Xiao_Chun

[shadowgod]

Heres a novel idea, Get rid of Tenure in the public education system and offer bonusus based on educational goals. thats a start. From there we would be able to weed out those teacher who are so content to sit at the front of a class to earn their pay rather then teach.

 

MmmK

 

Stepping off soapbox now

 

 

Steve

[Razor]

I FINALLY UNDERSTAND!

 

So the idiot actually was correct, but he was correct because he had the teacher's edition with the answer...

 

but couldn't explain how he arrived at that answer.

 

THANKS MICHAEL!

 

 

Can't believe they let someone like that teach... it's pitiful...

[Xiao_Chun]

I FINALLY UNDERSTAND!

 

So the idiot actually was correct, but he was correct because he had the teacher's edition with the answer...

 

but couldn't explain how he arrived at that answer.

 

THANKS MICHAEL!

Can't believe they let someone like that teach... it's pitiful...

Don't be too mad at him. It is not easy to be a teacher. Just remember that if you don't understand something that is supposed to be intuitive and simple, it is not because you are not smart. It is most probably the teacher's fault. But you can't change him, so all you can do is look at the textbook, or ask somebody else to explain. You can always ask me questions about economics.

 

Hugs,

Michael.

[old bob]

Wow this was a very interesting topic !

The post from Michael is brilliant and the answer from Razor amazing .

This example of questions from Razor and answers from a specialist in economics brings me to following proposal :

1. we certainly have among GA members a lot of such specialists in a lot of matters.

2. why not constitute a pool of specialists, sorted by matters, according the high school programms of our young members ?

3. the pool should be organised by an GA moderator, with a list of matters, and all the specialists "concerned" could register themselves.

4. Questions and answers could be brought through topics or PM.

What do you think ?

[colinian]

...Now, let

[Ieshwar]

the problem is not in america only. The problem is in the whole world, even in Mauritius. I think that these guys get the job only because their relatives are ministers or deputies.

[The Reaper]

What kind of teachers do we have today? How is this going on without the parents getting involved? How can people even call themselves parents if they don\'t pay enough attention to their child\'s education to notice something this seriously, horribly wrong? Is it the complacency and faith we place in our education system?

 

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM, AND HOW DO WE FIX IT?

 

 

 

 

FINALLY!!! Somone who can BELIEVE ME!!! Im sorry Jamie but your misfortune has just made my day. Oh man, and when i rant on my blog i get things said back to me like you would never imagine. Teachers these days are just not right. SOmething in unbalanced inside them that makes them living, breathing, pathological liars. My history teacher is smart, ill give her that, but WHY ON GOD GOOD EARTH is she teaching us (more everyone else) that Henry Ford was a good and MORAL person?!?! My god, i mean c\'mon, the dude has slaves in his apartment complex......IN THE 1920\'s!?!?!

 

But now im getting off track. But at least ONE person (if not more) can see what im saying. Jamie, imagine 7 of your economics teachers, now put them in Michigan and have them teach me. Thats my school. I get the same teachers who argue FALSE facts and half measure things JUST to get the point across to the other students that they are infallible. They dont know HOW to get the answers (most math teachers will though hehe) so they look at their little \"teachers book\" and search for the answers quaking in fear at the idea of one of their students might surpass them in a race of common sense and eloquent quips.

 

But now im ranting and being a tad mean.....wait, no im not what am i saying. My 8th grade math teacher called me a sponge brain after i corrected her on a math problem. She didnt say sponge brain as my brain taking everything in, but saying that my brain is small, yellow, spongy and squishy. I called her a dumb-ass (not the brightest idea) and i got a call home.

 

Another incident form LAST year. Freshman year of high school, my history teacher gave us an assignment to do. The directions were as follows: \"write a two page paper on how slavery is bad and why it was a good reason that is was abolished.\" Ok first off, i want to say that i dont believe in slavery and i think it was a bad idea....BUT, i think that any and every student should be able to write on EITHER side of ANY story they choose/were given. I was PISSED that i couldnt have the freedom to write about how slavery was good. I dont believe in it but i want the choice to write and have any opinion that i want. SO what did i do? I wrote the most eloquent three page paper on why slavery was good, and why it should be brought back into today\'s society. I got an A+ on the paper and a call home.

 

My point being that Jamie, you are nto alone and i must say that this is EXACTLY why I am against modern teaching/teachers.

 

 

 

Ian (and please, if you want to meet my devil of an 8th grade math teacher, come talk to me hehe.......my PARENTS called her \"The Math Nazi\")

[captainrick]

Wow this was a very interesting topic !

The post from Michael is brilliant and the answer from Razor amazing .

This example of questions from Razor and answers from a specialist in economics brings me to following proposal :

1. we certainly have among GA members a lot of such specialists in a lot of matters.

2. why not constitute a pool of specialists, sorted by matters, according the high school programms of our young members ?

3. the pool should be organised by an GA moderator, with a list of matters, and all the specialists "concerned" could register themselves.

4. Questions and answers could be brought through topics or PM.

What do you think ?

 

Actually, Bob, The admins here at GA are looking into that program now. I may be spilling the beans on this, but a pool of expertise for authors to use or consult in writing more credible stories is in the planning/organization stages. We do have a very rich and diverse pool of expertise here at GA maybe it can be expanded into the forums someway down the road. At any rate, I think it's a great idea too.

 

Rick

[Bondwriter]

Michael's sorting out made it clear to me that in the initial post there was some flaw in exposing the facts; indeed it was the definition. Reviewing some things... But I taught for over a decade, and I've been quite amazed at how little reaction you could get sometimes saying things that could appear outrageous. There are group dynamics involved.

And sure some teachers are idiots, but I've also met a number who were really involved and concerned. And yes, intelligence and brightness may be scary for a lot of them. So hold on, people! The workplace dynamics are not any better!

As for Old Bob's proposal, it seems some already use the resources available. I'm willing to help out with French learning, and essay writing in general, provided it's not a last minute request and it's help, and not actually doing the homework.

[pingyboy]

GA Student Tutoring Program! I like the sound of that idea, but it seems like a daunting task. The program Rick mentioned is only for authors, no?

[Myk]

Wow this was a very interesting topic !

The post from Michael is brilliant and the answer from Razor amazing .

This example of questions from Razor and answers from a specialist in economics brings me to following proposal :

1. we certainly have among GA members a lot of such specialists in a lot of matters.

2. why not constitute a pool of specialists, sorted by matters, according the high school programms of our young members ?

3. the pool should be organised by an GA moderator, with a list of matters, and all the specialists "concerned" could register themselves.

4. Questions and answers could be brought through topics or PM.

What do you think ?

Actually, Bob, The admins here at GA are looking into that program now. I may be spilling the beans on this, but a pool of expertise for authors to use or consult in writing more credible stories is in the planning/organization stages. We do have a very rich and diverse pool of expertise here at GA maybe it can be expanded into the forums someway down the road. At any rate, I think it's a great idea too.

 

Rick

GA Student Tutoring Program! I like the sound of that idea, but it seems like a daunting task. The program Rick mentioned is only for authors, no?

 

Yes Rick...you let the cat out of the bag!!

 

There is a program being set up with a panel of experts on various things here at GA. Currently its purpose is to help authors with realism in their stories...for instance when they have a character with an illness or leagal matters and they need to make sure it is accurate/believeable. I currently know of no plans to expand this into a tutoring program. Frankly that would be a huge undertaking and I doubt it would happen. Although I know many members have been more than willing to help students here in the past and would continue to do so even without an organized forum for it.

 

As for the program, it is brand new so it isn't in full swing yet. It is designed to help authors, not to eliminate their responsibility to do background research. If you are interested in volunteering your expertise, please feel free to contact any Writer Support Team (WST) member, we will be glad for your help. As for authors, the program is there, please feel free to use it if you have the need. Just be patient as things are setup. If you need more info you can contact a WST member or find the post in the writers forum.

 

BTW...I didn't say anything...lol.

 

Greg

[Xiao_Chun]

Wow this was a very interesting topic !

The post from Michael is brilliant and the answer from Razor amazing .

This example of questions from Razor and answers from a specialist in economics brings me to following proposal :

1. we certainly have among GA members a lot of such specialists in a lot of matters.

2. why not constitute a pool of specialists, sorted by matters, according the high school programms of our young members ?

3. the pool should be organised by an GA moderator, with a list of matters, and all the specialists "concerned" could register themselves.

4. Questions and answers could be brought through topics or PM.

What do you think ?

 

Sounds like a good idea to me Bob. We have experts in Law, Physics, Computers, Math, etc. that can be of help for our young members who are struggling with their school work or college work.

 

Something Razor's teacher didn't explain is why the marginal cost in this problem is increasing per unit manufactured as production increases. The marginal cost of manufacturing additional dozens should go down because of the reduced cost of supplies (flour, lard/shortening, salt, packaging materials) due to larger volume purchasing. Eventually, increased production would be impacted by the need to increase staff and/or purchase additional equipment, and the marginal cost would increase. Then, at some point, the marginal cost would again go down due to the productivity of the additional staff and/or equipment and even lower supply cost because of much higher volume.

 

Colin

 

Absolutely. This topic is called "the cost structure of a firm" and the costs should be derived from the production technology. Colin, it seems that you have a good teacher.

 

 

FINALLY!!! Somone who can BELIEVE ME!!! Im sorry Jamie but your misfortune has just made my day. Oh man, and when i rant on my blog i get things said back to me like you would never imagine. Teachers these days are just not right. SOmething in unbalanced inside them that makes them living, breathing, pathological liars. My history teacher is smart, ill give her that, but WHY ON GOD GOOD EARTH is she teaching us (more everyone else) that Henry Ford was a good and MORAL person?!?! My god, i mean c\'mon, the dude has slaves in his apartment complex......IN THE 1920\'s!?!?!

 

But now im getting off track. But at least ONE person (if not more) can see what im saying. Jamie, imagine 7 of your economics teachers, now put them in Michigan and have them teach me. Thats my school. I get the same teachers who argue FALSE facts and half measure things JUST to get the point across to the other students that they are infallible. They dont know HOW to get the answers (most math teachers will though hehe) so they look at their little \"teachers book\" and search for the answers quaking in fear at the idea of one of their students might surpass them in a race of common sense and eloquent quips.

 

But now im ranting and being a tad mean.....wait, no im not what am i saying. My 8th grade math teacher called me a sponge brain after i corrected her on a math problem. She didnt say sponge brain as my brain taking everything in, but saying that my brain is small, yellow, spongy and squishy. I called her a dumb-ass (not the brightest idea) and i got a call home.

 

Another incident form LAST year. Freshman year of high school, my history teacher gave us an assignment to do. The directions were as follows: \"write a two page paper on how slavery is bad and why it was a good reason that is was abolished.\" Ok first off, i want to say that i dont believe in slavery and i think it was a bad idea....BUT, i think that any and every student should be able to write on EITHER side of ANY story they choose/were given. I was PISSED that i couldnt have the freedom to write about how slavery was good. I dont believe in it but i want the choice to write and have any opinion that i want. SO what did i do? I wrote the most eloquent three page paper on why slavery was good, and why it should be brought back into today\'s society. I got an A+ on the paper and a call home.

 

My point being that Jamie, you are nto alone and i must say that this is EXACTLY why I am against modern teaching/teachers.

 

Ian (and please, if you want to meet my devil of an 8th grade math teacher, come talk to me hehe.......my PARENTS called her \"The Math Nazi\")

 

Ian, you don't really mean to say that all teachers are bad It seems to me that Colin's teacher is doing a great job teaching economics.

 

About the slavery, it would be nice if the teacher asked you to write about the "economic and social impact of slavery, and its abolishment". Surely when the slavery was legal, some people benefited a lot from it (the slave owners) and accumulated enormous wealth. The slaves themselves suffered of course. After the slavery was abolished, the economic and political power switched from slave owners to other groups. If you write about the different aspects of that, then this would be a great essay. The words GOOD and BAD should not be used in this kind of context, certainly not by your teacher. Instead, talk about the benefits and costs to different groups of our society and our economy. At least, that is the assignment that I would have given to my class if I taught this.

 

Here is a challenge for our young members. Write an essay about "what factors determine the quality of teachers in a particular school?". In your essay consider the following points. Is there difference between public schools and private schools in terms of teachers' quality? Is there a difference between different states and location? For example, Colin's school is located near Berkley, with a lot of resources. How does this affect the quality of teachers in his school?

 

Writing this essay will help us understand our educational system better. When you go to college and take principles of economics, which is required now for most majors, you can look back at your essay and see if your logic was correct and if you would change some of your conclusions.

 

Good Luck,

Michael.

Edited February 7, 2007 by Xiao_Chun

[Razor]

Haha, an essay... wow. Am I freaky if that actually sounds fun and interesting to me? I'm beginning to blame student apathy and complacency just as much as teacher stupidity... my English teacher cracks me up. He'll give incorrect examples on purpose to see if anyone catches them, and hardly anyone ever does. Shows how much attention he gets in class.

 

A GA Tutoring program would be wonderful. I'm sure that a few people would be incredibly useful to have around for random questions (like dear Michael, who very quickly and efficiently cleared the air around my misunderstanding).

 

Interesting tidbit...

 

Today a classmate heard me explaining the correct answer to a person who had actually asked me to explain it. She butted into my conversation and said to drop it, that it was yesterday, blahblahblah. (Basically she's a bitch and no one likes her, but I held my tongue on that one). So, I told her to hush up and mind her own conversation. Then I thought for a moment...

 

THIS GIRL IS TRYING TO BECOME AN ANESTHESIOLOGIST.

 

Do I REALLY want someone that complacent and accepting of falsehoods to have my life in their hands?

 

How has our standard drooped so low that we just accept things like this that are really important to our success?

 

Another little example is today a band student was complaining about the way the band teacher's been doing chairs (seating based on rank in the section you belong to). She's been wanting to strangle this woman over it for about four days now. Her mother even called the school.

 

The band teacher pissed someone off, and even though she's not a terrible teacher like the economics teacher, people are more incited about being placed in the wrong chair than getting a shitty education. How sad is that? When other people's perception of you becomes TRULY more important to you than what is actually there... I just can't believe that people could have that mindset.

[Bondwriter]

I remember having similar feelings towards my fellow-students. A lot of the idiots (as far as I know) got OK positions later in life. Success in high-school does not determine your success in life. Same with popularity. College is the real concern to end up with knowledge and skills. I think it's especially true in the U.S.

 

And yeah, making (mildly) fun of students by letting out a few outrageous comments waiting for a reaction can be fun. Quite distressing when no one notices too. Then, you know you've got a lot of hard work to do...

[The Reaper]

Success in high-school does not determine your success in life. Same with popularity. College is the real concern to end up with knowledge and skills. I think it's especially true in the U.S.

 

 

Doesn't it suck that its like that? I mean now im not saying its going to change because of a few people who dont fit into the system (like me), but im saying its unfair. Its unfair that life has to be like that, EVEN THOUGH it does work for most of the populous.....*unfortunately*

 

 

Ian

[Adrian Michaels]

Argh. This reminds me of my Chemistry professor in college.

 

I was in a lecture of about 300 people. He would write something on the board, and as he went through the equation, more and more hands would start to go up. Some one would correct him, and he'd say, "Oh, it appears that I've made a mistake."

 

And then you'd hear mass grumbling, as 300 kids scratched things out of their notes. This happened multiple times every lecture.

 

The scariest part?? He wrote the textbook that we use.

[Razor]

~shrugs~ I can deal with an absentminded teacher, even though I firmly believe that a teacher should have an iron grip on their subject, know it backwards and forwards, and be practically all-knowing therein... but w/e. Some people are just scatterbrained, like me.

 

At least he admits his mistakes and takes the time to explain and rectify. Some teachers are just... wow.

[colinian]

My AP Calculus teacher will spend the last 30 minutes of class on a Friday working out the first problem from the exercises in the book, then tell us "OK, do the next 9 and turn them in on Monday." :wacko:

 

Colin

[glomph]

Heres a novel idea, Get rid of Tenure in the public education system and offer bonusus based on educational goals. thats a start.

 

A problem with that is that some idiot will be the one to set the educational goals, probably someone less competent than the teacher.

 

Look at the "no child left behind" kind of stuff. Teachers at certain levels have to spend most of their time coaching kids on taking standardized tests. Good teachers have been quitting for years because of that and because discipline in the classroom and respect and support for teachers by the schools, parents, and administrators have severely declined in a lot of places.

[blackbird]

In all my years of public school (from kindergarten to early 10th grade), I've dealt with very few good teachers. Out of all the ones I've had, only four stand out as truly exceptional teachers in both ability and intelligence. The rest are either mediocre or plain evil. Of course, before you can focus on educational goals and hiring teachers who have some idea of what they're talking about, you have to make schools safe. I used to go to a school in PA where there was a student teacher who molested at least two of the grrls in his class. The school didn't do anything but pass him on to another district.

 

Most of the people who should be looking out for students aren't. That much is very clear to me. I fail to see how not firing (at the very least) a teacher who repeatedly makes sexual remarks to students is acceptable. I fail to see also how hiring a teacher whose grip on the subject they teach is almost nil and their level of maturity even less is acceptable. I never thought I'd hear my math teacher's opinions about which illegal drugs were the best or how she lost her virginity to a 28 year old when she was 15. I also never thought that telling that to a disciplinarian/assistant principal would nearly get me suspended for "spreading rumors about such a nice person".

 

The lack of accountablity on the part of school staff is part of the reason I left public schools and would homeschool my children. The internet school I've been in since last year has been pretty good, aside from not giving the opportunity any debate between students or deeper discussions about literature or social studies because there are no classes, just books shipped to you and pdf's on the site.

 

*edited because I left out a word*

Edited February 8, 2007 by blackbird