PrivateTim

In point 1 you have two different aspects of respect and it dovetails nice on the point of parents. You have to respect the office of the judge just like you have to respect the office of the parents. It is possible to not respect the officeholder, but that can't spill over on official duties. If you told the judge in the affluenza case (does anyone doubt Will is a sufferer?) in their court that the was the most idiotic thing you'd ever heard, at best you'd be pulling out the checkbook and at worst, cooling your heels in a holding cell. In point 2, I wish it were true that courts did not defer to parental rights when parents have been negligent or abusive, but you'd would be horrified at what it takes to get a child to be removed from an abuse or negligent household.

You're the kind of guy, I perceive, that is rather callow and doesn't understand respect. There are many forms of respect that don't need to be "developed" or earned. Respect for parental rights would be one form that doesn't need to be earned or developed. A spiteful Wally and Clara could remove the car from Zach and get a restraining order against Will without too much problem because the law still has respect for some relationships, even if individuals don't. Similarly when you are in court, the judge doesn't need to "earn" your respect, he has it automatically otherwise disrespect is dealt with swiftly and surely. Children have to respect their parents authority whether or not they respect the people and the law recognizes that as well. The reason that you respect your elders is that with age comes wisdom. And please spare me anecdotal stories about unwise older people. Society has accepted for millennia that age brings experience and experience wisdom.

I am really glad that you agree with me that it was a huge mistake for Will to buy Zach the car and he shouldn't have shown such disregard for Wally & Clara, Gathan and Brad. Ok that would be sarcasm (or is it irony?). Because I think you are among the crowd that thinks Will didn't make a mistake in how he handled buying Zach a car. All the people in the above situations came to realize they had made errors and had a level of contrition. Will has none. He, and half the people here (or more) think he did the right thing. That is the point. How can he learn from his "mistakes", if he doesn't see them as such?

Here is my review of Chapter 57 and Mark's reply: still think Lark is full of crap. To me if Will was this great guy who really wanted to right injustice and help the oppressed he'd be helping the guys at Father Tim's Center who have really endured abuse and been rejected by their families. If not buying your son a car at his elite prep school is abuse, then they are going to need to jail a whole lot of people. That Will doesn't recognize Wally and Clara's right to parent their child as they see best is as I have said before, disturbing. It means he really does NOT understand right and wrong. He doesn't get that buying Zach a car was wrong, because it isn't his right to make that decision. It also speaks volumes about his maturity, or lack thereof, that he has so little respect for his elders. It is okay to be mad at Brad for supposed slights, but disrespecting others, maybe because of their education, values or net worth does not bode well for Will's future development. I post this because I want to be clear on what I mean and what I see as a huge flaw in Will right now, partly due to his immaturity and that self assured arrogance that they (teens) know best on pretty much everything. I do equate respect to morality (the right and wrong of things) and respect for parental authority, a parents right to raise their child as they see fit, is just one aspect of it. It is wrong (immoral) to not respect someone and treat them badly especially when they have never done anything wrong to you or to others. Will's disregard for Wally & Clara as people and then going behind their backs to give Zach a car is wrong. I don't car how you spin it or try to turn it into a positive for Will it isn't. This isn't Will seeing some great injustice and then righting it. It is Will wanting to stick a thumb in Wally & Clara's eye, but Gathan and his Father as well. The very impetuousness of the act shows Will's immaturity. Why can't Will, who ran away, felt unloved and abandoned by his parents, not empathize more with the young men at Father Tim's who truly are unloved and abandoned by their parents and do nice things for them? The money Will spent on a car for Zach would have done much more good spread over the 30 to 40 guys at Fr Tim's mission. That would have showed maturity to me and an understanding of what injustice looks like. Maybe I take it more to heart because I have to work with a good number of Wills and grew up with a good number of Wills, who have no concept of the world is supposed to work and no concept of reality. The last chapter, Will not understanding how to make breakfast brought it home even more. He is used to walking into a kitchen with servants who fix his meals and when they are at Escorial, having the meals served by more servants like it is early 20th century Britain. I am sure he treats them well, but he still thinks of them as inferiors. That isn't immaturity as it is arrogance and Will has arrogance in spades; slightly cocky can be cute, arrogance is ugly. His disregard for adults in general is another aspect of the arrogance. Switching off Will and onto Brad in this new chapter, I find it interesting that a company like Triton would a chief of security like they do. CT was one of the earlier states to pass gay rights protection in the early 90's. I am not sure that the Board is the proper venue to address the issues. I'd have the security chief in a conference room with the VP of HR, Director of HR, Jordan and Brad and start the tortuously long route that large corporations have to go to fire someone. Long gone are the days of summarily dismissing someone. It starts with a suspension pending investigation, an investigation not just of what the suspended party did, but how did you handle previous, similar violations of company policy and law and then pray the suspended party is not a protected class themselves. Of course I can't really complain, it is such situations that get lawyers their next new car or trip to Tahiti.

Fun chapter..... interesting new storyline with Brad and the business and even more interesting is Daddydavek turning Claire into a cougar and having hot steamy sex with Austin.... that would be a straight sex scene I could stand to hear... I'll have more thoughts in the forum.

I appreciated the quick turn, it was nice to see a "twin spin" I still think Lark is full of crap. To me if Will was this great guy who really wanted to right injustice and help the oppressed he'd be helping the guys at Father Tim's Center who have really endured abuse and been rejected by their families. If not buying your son a car at his elite prep school is abuse, then they are going to need to jail a whole lot of people. That Will doesn't recognize Wally and Clara's right to parent their child as they see best is as I have said before, disturbing. It means he really does NOT understand right and wrong. He doesn't get that buying Zach a car was wrong, because it isn't his right to make that decision. It also speaks volumes about his maturity, or lack thereof, that he has so little respect for his elders. It is okay to be mad at Brad for supposed slights, but disrespecting others, maybe because of their education, values or net worth does not bode well for Will's future development.

Some interesting things in the new chapter and I'll lay aside my "Tony must die" shtick for a few moments. I don't like Tony and think he is poisonous, just like some people think Zach is poisonous, but my desire for Skylab to fall on him is more just me having fun than anything. But on the serious side of the story I don't buy the "guys were just hook-ups" bit for Tony and that was why he treated Will like crap on the float trip and did his thing with Rick. If Tony hadn't treated Will the way he did in Rome, maybe I could have bought that line, but in Rome it would have been (and was) pretty obvious to anyone that Will and Tony were like a couple in love and in fact Tony did declare his love for Will. A guy just doing hook ups with guys doesn't act like Tony did in Rome. The funniest, most ironic part of the chapter was Will telling Tony who he could and could not sleep with. Can you imagine how Will would react to someone else, JJ for example, telling Will who he could and could not sleep with? Will would immediately go sleep with them just to spite the person, somewhat like Will did in Norway. Some here think I don't like Will and they couldn't be more wrong. If I didn't like Will I wouldn't hate Tony and call for his death at every opportunity. I wouldn't give a damn, I'd think the two little pricks deserved each other. But I don't think Will is prick, I do think he is far too young to be making a lot of the life decisions he does and his continuing disrespect and disregard for Wally & Clara and interfering with their rights to raise their minor son as they see best troubles me. Will might think they are wrong in how they are doing, but failing to recognize their right to do so speaks to his immaturity. It especially bothers me that there are the young men at Father Tim's ministry who truly have been abused and abandoned by parents who don't give a rip about them and Will wastes his money on someone in an elite prep school who has parents that love and care about his welfare and make what they think are the right decisions for him. I think Will has misdirected priorities. As I said in my review of this chapter, despite the fact that to us, the 9-11 "planes hit" chapter was almost three months ago (9-9-2013), in CAP time, it hasn't even been a month yet since Robbie died. Its just been 23 days since the towers fell so I wouldn't expect Brad, or anyone for that matter, to have moved on or been healed so quickly. At the three month mark, maybe you only think about it 5 or 6 times a day as opposed to every 5 or 6 minutes, but it really takes time for grief to be processed. I am not sure how much longer we have in 9-11, but I hope long enough to learn more about Wade's half brother, long enough to have some fun in Hawaii and long enough to see Tony die a slow, painful death (you didn't really think I was going to abandon the "Tony must die" theme so easily did you?)

It is easy to conflate time in the CAP world with time in the real world. Despite the fact that to us, the 9-11 "planes hit" chapter was almost three months ago (9-9-2013), in CAP time, it hasn't even been a month since Robbie died. Its just been 23 days since the towers fell so I wouldn't expect Brad, or anyone for that matter, to have moved on or been healed so quickly. At the three month mark, maybe you only think about it 5 or 6 times a day as opposed to every 5 or 6 minutes, but it really takes time for grief to be processed. Comments on "other" matters I'll make in the forums

How badly you interpret my words, which were pretty clear. No one can declare what anyone elses sexual orientation is. That is not new nor hipster. Crosscurrents and It Started With Brian are examples of someone who is straight can fall in love with someone of the same gender and still be straight. Tom Daley has not declared his orientation, nor should he ever have to. It is no ones damned business. But Mr. Daley was very clear that he likes "a guy". He didn't forget an "s", it wasn't a mistake, he doesn't like "guys", he likes one person, who happens to be a guy. People who do not know Mr. Daley, rushing to declare him one orientation or another is unseemly at best.

"Guys" is plural. As of right now, we knows he likes "a guy", that is singular. That would be the actual fact.

Why does everyone feel compelled to slap a label on someone. Tom Daley didn't "come out" and he doesn't "like guys too" as the title of this thread says. He likes a guy. In the future he may like other guys. Or not. But that doesn't make him gay or bi or anything other little box that people want to stuff him in. Sexual orientation is a self identification. Has no one here read Crosscurrents or It Started With Brian?

Don't you misquote Scripture to me, especially not Timothy It is the love of money that leads people down the wrong path, look at what happened to Gathan when he first got money. Wally & Clara are right to be suspicious of what happens to people when they come into money because it changes them. The examples of how the wealthy in Claremont behaved before JP got back involved probably influenced their opinions as well. The bitch about not trusting adults is sooner or later you become one. People who get things too easily do not appreciate them as much as people who work for them.

The car was NOT the fabulously, unbelievably wealthy boy's equivalent of helping his friend sneak out of the house past curfew, it was the fabulously, unbelievably wealthy boy's equivalent of walking in the front door and saying, "forget your curfew, what do they know, let's go." The whole point has been that as a 15 year old Will, or any 15 year old for that matter, does not have the maturity to make that decision. That is why we give them time to grow up. A new car probably costs as much as a house in Claremont, OH. The fact that he does not understand IS the point, it is that lack of maturity that is being discussed.

Dat right.

Ah the good old days when the Schluters & Cramptons just killed off assholes. When did they turn into such pussies!

Yes, but Alejandro was in Stef's care and he didn't step in between Alejandro and his parents or the parents wishes. Casey's mother's protest was half hearted, although I do think he should have run it past her first.

I agree that JP could have fired back that he judged wrongly on Brian, but more to the point I made earlier, Brian was an adult. As far as I know everyone in the story who got a car or gift from the Schluter/Crampton clan has been an adult and the gift giving member wasn't stepping in between a minor and his parents/guardians. That is my issue with the car. And Will is very much a passive - aggressive. People need to start calling him back to the current situation and not let him distract with a "well you were worse" retort. I like Alistair as Will's future mister because he is someone not afraid to call William on his bullshit. Alistair comes from the background and breeding to not be cowed or awed by Will's money like Kai & Berto might have been. ************************************************************************** Now I know this is going to shock people, but I don't like Tony. Tony's problem is not that he has a hard time accepting his homosexuality, his problem is he is an asshole. If Tony's problem was accepting his homosexuality on the float trip where he treated Will like garbage he would have been banging Betty Sue (or whatever her damn name was) not the football guy. No he was banging the football guy and treating Will like garbage because he is an asshole. Therapy can't fix that. I hope Skylab falls on him on the drive back to Stanfurd.

Fuck I hate Tony

In 2001-03 De La Salle in the East Bay (Concord) would have been the way to go. They were still in their national record 151 consecutive win streak and were named national high champions four years in a row (2000-2003). I am not a big fan of the Lasallians, I prefer the Jesuits, but it is hard to argue with what De La Salle did on the field in that win streak. Or he could have gone to Mater Dei in Orange County. He would have just missed Matt Leinart, but Colt Brennan would have been his QB and Darryl Strawberry Jr a classmate.

I loved the post too except for the last paragraph or actually the last sentence. Brad is not a bad guy or father, he is protective (which some people translate to control issues). What will be interesting is when Will has teenagers (if we all live so long to read and Mark to write it). We will see if Will allows his 13 year old to do anything he wants. Like I said earlier, pay backs a bitch as Brad found out with Will after what he pulled on JP. As to Zach, there is a difference between "giving him a chance" and giving him a car. Even though it seems like a long time ago that Zach was a complete asshole, it hasn't really been that long in CAP time. We are just in October of the school year so Zach doesn't even have one semester in yet at Don Bosco so we don't know how his grades are. Maybe he is capable of doing well during football season because he has to to stay eligible, but how will he be when football ends? Giving him a chance would be to evaluate him at the end of his semester (January 2002 probably) and see where he is. Frankly I'd have sent Zach to Loyola High School (Los Angeles) or Bellarmine or St Ignatius (San Jose & San Francisco) because 1) the Jesuits would straighten him out and 2) he'd be close to Escorial or Malibu for the family to check up on him. Again, like with Will, is isn't that I don't like Zach, I think I commented on how much I enjoyed seeing more complexity written into the character, but that Zach still has a ways to go before before I am ready to pronounce him a reformed sinner.

Well lots of confusing stuff here..... people's personal feelings about Zach were formed based on Zach's actions. I would say that has been a very fair judgment. Zach made his bed, now he has to lie in it. He has to work extra hard just to get back to neutral, let alone get people to trust him. You (and others) are willing to cut Tonto slack because she believed she was protecting Stef, but you won't give that same benefit of the doubt to Brad. Who is Will being fair to? Certainly not Wally and Clara who he has completely disregarded. He didn't even have enough regard for them to hear their thoughts on why Zach should or should not have a car. Will decided on his own that he knew best (as he always seems to believe) without hearing any contrary opinions and acted thoughtlessly. Everyone seems to think Brad has control issues, but no one has more control issues than Will who believes there should be no controls of any kind on him. He gets to act as he pleases because he knows more than anyone else. That is the arrogance and ignorance of youth. Actually I love Will and love him as narrator, but that doesn't mean I think he should be free to do exactly as he pleases disregarding anyone elses opinions, feelings or authority. Wally and Clara don't have to allow Zach to have the car. They are his parents and they can remove it if they choose. Zach doesn't have the resources to get emancipated, Wally & Clara wouldn't consent anyway and absent abuse or danger to Zach, no court would grant it. I would believe that Will was growing and maturing if he had gone to Wally and Clara and talked to them first. I believe a "good person" would have more regard for the feelings of Wally and Clara than Will exhibited. I am also not saying Will won't get there, but I see buying Zach a car without consulting any of the adults involved, a step backwards, not forward. Happy Thanksgiving to all the 'mericans and happy random Thursday to everyone else

No, you don't need a car to get in trouble, but getting a car opens the door to even more possibilities. It is like handing a book of matches to a toddler and being surprised when he starts a fire. I also don't get the deification of Tonto. She did grow into a wise woman, but have we forgotten how she reacted to JP and Stef initially? And she was a woman fully growed then, not a 15 year old who has led a rather insular life. It took awhile for her to get there. I am not ready to cede the moral high ground or wisdom of the ages to a callow youth yet.

Man I hope your son is paying attention to this "teens know better than their parents" thread. Pay backs a bitch

Happy cold Thanksgiving to you too rjo. If Wally and Clara didn't care about Zach, I they'd have turned custody over to the CPO in Claremont and washed their hands of him. My issue is that Will didn't even consult anyone else. He is a 15 year old making decisions on his own with no guidance. I think it is great when Will rights wrongs like with Kai's dad and some of the things he has done, but a 16 year old not having a car at his elite prep boarding school isn't exactly in the UN Declaration on the Rights of Children No one giving Zach a chance? Wally and Clara have allowed him to go to an elite prep school in New Jersey. Wally & Clara are raising Zach and they didn't have to do that. What is mature in the situation is precisely talking to Brad and Wally & Clara. What is immature is not talking to them because you assume you know the answers. You assume you know better than them why Zach doesn't have a car. He hasn't even heard from Wally & Clara why Zach doesn't have a car, but Will decides on his own he knows better. Does Will even know the school rules at Don Bosco about who can and can't have a car?

Here is my review because they are some of the issues I want to discuss. I get why Gathan is mad, but why Brad? You'd think after 9-11 trivia wouldn't bother him. Will has the money and buying someone a car at his net worth is like someone else buying an expensive meal. I can see Brad being worried about Will being taken advantage of, but you'd think that would be a casual conversation to do a check on Will's well being not an occasion to get pissed off. If it makes things difficult with Wally & Clara for Brad, then he needs to sit Will down and talk to Will the emancipated minor and talk about seeing more than what is right in front of you.On one hand what Will did was generous, on another it was rather self centered and disrespectful. Zach is still in Wally & Clara's care and they should have been consulted before Will went behind their backs to buy him a car. They could have any number of reasons they didn't want Zach to have a car at that school and that is their call, not Will's. Will has flashes of maturity, but doing what he did to Wally & Clara is sign of immaturity. He owes them an apology. ***revised an extended. Austin was a nice addition, but I still like the younger, shier guys like Cam and obviously much prefer the swimmer/polo player body to the football type.