PrivateTim

Telling the truth is way overrated. When the truth will only fuel more animosity and telling a half truth won't cause any harm, you choose the lesser of two weevils. It is not unreasonable to have different standards for siblings and cousins, but Matt was not raised with Will as a sibling and no matter how distant cousins the Hayes family are, they were important to Robbie and that should be enough for Will to treat the Hayes cousins better. Will has never treated Matt the way he does Darius and JJ, so this "Darius and JJ wouldn't do that" argument is specious. Even since Will started fucking dating Zach he hasn't had a civil word to say to Gathan, he is perpetually pissed off at him. Will did have longer than a day to forgive him, but hadn't. He was still cynical and suspicious of Zach the night of Robbie's memorial, but seven and a half inches later he had forgiven Zach and bought him a car. No, you miss the point that people with no moral standards can not impose on or expect moral standards of others The is no right or wrong when you do what ever you want because you have the money to make it so, there is only want.

If Matt is not Will's "brother" because there is no love there, then everyone should stop busting Matt's balls that Will gets to tell Matt who he can sleep with because they are "brothers". If Matt is Will's "brother" because Matt is Will's father's son, then the other Hayes are Will's family too. You can not have it both ways. The family did not meet Matt and decide to let him be a family member, he came into the family because he was Robbie's son and Wade came in because he was Matt's boyfriend. Ace and Billy were his son's because they were his wife's children and Brad he took in out of family obligation. Brad was not a stranger.

It is interesting to see JP's ire with Matt. I've never believed in open relationships because it is usually a one sided proposition that never works out well in the end.

And of course you miss the point and the connection. Everyone is saying, "how can Matt do that to his brother", but no one has any problem what Will is doing to his "aunt and uncle" (Wally and Clara) and "cousin" (Gathan). You can't get around the fact that they are all Hayes and Robbie's family. That is part of not being able to choose your family. If Will is Robbie's son, then the Hayes are his family. Will was actually closer to Gathan than Matt before he started playing hide the salami with Zach, but now he has no problem treating Gathan like dirt because there is tension between Zach and Gathan. He never treated Matt that well to begin with, but wants to pull the "family" card now? And no one seems to have an issue with how quickly Will forgave Zach for having sex with John and creating family problems between Brad and Claire. If family is that important you would think it would have taken more than a day or two to get over the issues with Zach and then suddenly believe every word from Zach's mouth as gospel. So far Will has a pretty poor track record at choosing potential boyfriends.

You can pick your nose. You can't pick your family.

So wait...... Will, who is supposed to care so much about family, prefers Wade, who isn't related to him, to Matt, who supposedly is? And Will has had no problems lobbing hand grenades into his Hayes family (Wally & Clara and Gathan, who saved his father's life) all because he likes getting banged by Zach, who also created rifts in the family by messing with John and causing problems with Claire and Brad? Why can't Will have simply said, "thank you for the apology, but I am going to need time to process it still." That is what a wise beyond his years person would have said while Wally & Clara await THEIR apology from Will.

I am not sure how you keep, consistently missing this. I DO very much believe in moral standards and codes, it is Will who only believes in them when they are convenient for him. I think Matt is wrong for sleeping around when he is in a relationship, either get in a relationship and commit to your partner or don't be in a relationship. If I was wade I would have dumped him long ago. I think Will is wrong for laying out rules for others that he doesn't want to obey himself. I think it is morally wrong to have sex with the guest of a guest, I think it is wrong to let your sex life interfere with someone else's space as Will did in Norway, I think it is wrong interfere with a parent - child relationship when the child is not in any danger, I think it is wrong to sleep with someone when you know they are in a committed relationship. There are many other moral foibles in the CAP series, but none of that is the point. The point is that if you want and expect "common decency" then you have to give it as well. You have to adhere to some norm of what that common decency is. The Golden Rule of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a pretty simple, religion neutral moral code to live by. I could go through Will, Matt, Tony and any number of people here and apply that standard and show how much less pain and suffering there would have been had they and others lived up to that one moral code.

The overarching theme has been "common decency" and Matt was "wrong", but in a world of moral relativism, no one gets to judge anyone else's actions. With Brad and Wade it is not that Matt gave his go ahead, but in what world is sleeping with the partner of your step son considered morally okay? If you are going to bust Matt's balls because he is Will's "brother", then that makes him your step son too. You can say "I wouldn't do that" and grab what you think is the moral high ground, but in a universe where everyone has their own definition of right and wrong there is no right and wrong. JJ didn't ask Will to not sleep with "anyone in Norway", he asked Will to not sleep with any of the people in his world, the skaters. Will had 100,000 Norwegian men and boys he could have slept with in Oslo, but Will was shitting in the middle JJ's party and didn't even understand why that was wrong or possibly hurtful to JJ and possibly damaging to the skaters he was involved with. I didn't argue that it was unfair of Will to tell Matt who he could and could net sleep with, but hypocritical because Will hates being told such things. The point with Joe, Ethan's friend, is not if Joe flirted with Will first or whether or not Will likes Ethan. I don't think Matt likes Will all that much, so is it therefore okay for Matt to sleep with Tony because he doesn't like Will? The point is I would not sleep with a house guest who was the guest of another guest, even if they hit on me because I would not step in the middle of their friendship, even if it was just a friendship. The point with Will is that he did not stop for one second and consider anyone else in the equation, he did what he wanted, when he wanted. That is not the attitude of someone mature, that is an ill mannered, inconsiderate lout. For Sammy, it is not a case of liking or disliking Will, but wanting Will to grow the fuck up and start caring about someone besides himself. REALLY caring, not caring about someone who is useful to him or a good fuck, but someone who can't do anything for him. Why no compassion for Ethan (that translates into action) who has had life 100x rougher than Zach? Because Ethan is fat and unattractive to Will?

Yes, Matt only has Wade and his family back in Ohio, who can't help/support him in CA if Will wants to push a "choose him or me scenario" as is his wont. But of course the point would be that Tony is not Will's partner. In fact Will made it pretty clear that for the foreseeable future they were only FWBs. The trouble is, in this modern world of moral relativism, whose definition of common decency do we use? Yours or mine or someone elses? It slays me that people think Matt did something wrong by sleeping with Tony, who is not Will's boyfriend, but NO ONE had an issue with Brad sleeping with his step son's partner? That is okay in the world of common decency? Wait.... Will shouldn't have had to ask Matt to stay away from Tony, who isn't his boyfriend, while he is banging Zach, who screwed over him and his cousin and caused a big rift in the family with Brad and Claire and everyone else, but Matt DID have to tell his step father to not bang his partner? As to Ethan's friend........ common decency would say you don't suck off any house guest who is the guest of a guest, especially when you don't know the relationship between the two, ESPECIALLY when the guest is the brother of someone you consider a brother. But it is another case of Will wanting to do whatever Will wants with ZERO consideration of anyone else. In Norway he had no consideration of how his sexploits in the skating world would effect JJ, he had no consideration about Wally & Clara when he bought the truck, he had no consideration for Ethan when he hooked up with his friend. Will thinks there are no limits of any kind on him. Why is wrong to sleep with someone NOT in a relationship with anyone? Will certainly had no problem sleeping with Erik (or was it Kyle) knowing full well he was in a relationship. It is not that Will did not have any sort of a familial relationship with either, but that "common decency" says you do not sleep with someone in a committed relationship. I would also ask what textual evidence you can point to that says Ethan and his friend were just buddies? Did Will ask? Did Will even care? Would it have stopped him if he had known? As to Norway, JJ asked Will to not sleep with ANYONE. What was Will's response? He negotiated. How about a simple, "okay because you asked me JJ my brother, I'll keep my dick in my pants for THREE DAYS." Would that have been so hard for Will to do in consideration to JJ?

I don't think what Matt is doing is looking for sex, I think there is a much deeper pathology going on that he is not even aware of. A subconscious self destructive motivation that all Hayes seem to have. Looking at the Will/Matt comparisons people want to make in terms of maturity, people were okay with Will's destructive runaway episode because he felt unloved, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Yet Matt, who actually did have parents reject him, not once, but twice (being given up for adoption and the adoptive parents on finding out he was gay) isn't given the same latitude. Yes everyone is hurting, but Will, Brad and the rest have an entire family structure that they grew up in for support, Matt only has Wade and Wade hasn't stopped to really analyze Matt's behavior, he is just reacting to it. And when you really think about it, it is all Arbour's fault anyway. If he had just killed off Tony as I've sweetly and subtly suggested, it never would have happened at all. The difference is no one has said of Matt how mature he is, how wise beyond his years, how he will assume the mantle of leadership one day. Will is not just a 15 year old, he is an emancipated 15 year old who is an object of much praise for his decisions and the adults are criticized for questioning his judgment. If you want the responsibility of running your own life without question or interference, then you can't fall back on, "I'm just a kid." I think you understand that isn't what I was suggesting, but rather making a point. Will has a very strong sense of family, but yet it was Zach who fucked with his family (John) after Will had turned him down explaining that he and John were promised to each other. Zach slept with John deliberately to strike back at Will for not sleeping with him. But a few lays and a football jersey latter, Will is contemplating is he in love with that same guy. I am wondering where Will The Wise and Compassionate is? The Will who doesn't like being told what he can and can not do by people? If he stopped and contemplated his relationship with Matt and where Matt is in life right now I'd start to believe that Will is worthy of the praise he gets.

Apparently all Matt will need to do is screw Will, tell him a hard luck story about his parents not understanding him and everyone being mean to him. He will get a new truck as a bonus

Given that Tony & Zach are both apparently still breathing I am not sure how Mr. Arbour thought this chapter would make me happy Okay, but seriously..... as long as Tony is breathing no amount of "I'm done with him" from Will can convince me that he really is done with him. Will's heart seems directly connected to his prostate. Five weeks ago he hated Zach for crapping all over his relationship with John, now he wonders if he is in love with Zach and all because Zach can find his "G spot". As long as Zach wants to pursue his football ambitions Will will be second fiddle and when Zach gets into college he'd have to push Will even further away. I do hope we get more looks at Ethan before 9-11 ends or that the next book doesn't jump too far ahead... like 9-13 maybe....

I guess I don't get where you get that JJ isn't "a Cali guy" (by the way no one is "Cali" calls it "Cali")? California isn't Delaware. You can live 9-10 hours driving time from your family and still be in California. And if you think you can't wear your Burberrys in CA, you've never been to San Francisco in June. Even though they are only 40 minutes apart, most people who live in Palo Alto or south probably don't get into The City more than a few times a year. There just isn't a huge need. I do think that Will flipped his opinion on Zach. Would the pre-Robbie's memorial Will have bought Zach a car? Yes, I do watch way too much Family Guy

Maybe they can get in a fight on a rooftop and fall off, punching each other all the way to the ground just before they splat. A guy can dream Why would JJ move anyplace? The best coaches in the country are in Southern California. Now as to Zach, no one has been wrong about Zach or misjudged him, Brad impression of Zach as a self-centered asshole is spot on. Will himself remarked on the nastiness inside of Zach and how he could be cruel to achieve what he wants. In the football game Zach demanded that the coach put him in, not because he wanted to win for the, but because he wanted the scouts to see him. He shouted an poked at the lineman about having his career "short circuited", no concern for the team or "do you want to win this game", it was all about him. Football players I know would have okey doke blocked for an asshole like that and let him keep getting creamed until the coach pulled him out. Getting the jersey for Will might have been a nice thing, but if Will threatens Zach's goals Zach will run over him like he would a 12 year old linebacker. Just because Zach is a good lay Will flips his opinion on him? Zach is still the guy who went after John after Will rejected him and told him why. Zach is still the guy who took the bike that didn't belong to him and wrecked it. Zach is still the guy who emotionally blackmailed Gathan. Just because an asshole can do some nice things doesn't mean they are not an asshole still. Will maybe has discovered that Zach has a side to his story too, but why has he never been able to see anyone elses side of a story? Did he stop to consider why Brad and Robbie were doing what they did as parents? Did he try to understand his mother? Has he sat down with Wally to try and understand how hard it is to raise six kids on a sanitation workers salary especially when not all of them are your kids even? How a parent worries about his kids drinking too much, getting into drugs, getting a girl pregnant or getting pregnant? I just don't see this vaunted maturity in Will that everyone talks about. He seems like a standard teen boy led around by his dick making bad decisions.

Nice to see Brad getting ready to move on, but it still isn't going to be easy. The trauma of losing a partner in 9-11 won't go away easily especially with the annual name readings, the TV coverage on the anniversary and the rest that goes along with it. A cool chapter, but I wonder where we go next.

Hey call me a cynic, but I think Brad is in Tribeca plowing that little tramp Mendoza

If he is a work in progress, who is he learning from? He doesn't seem to listen to anyone, not even Stef or JP when he disagrees with what they are saying to him. Anyone who tries to talk to him and take contrary positions his he escalates quickly into anger and has been like this since PMS. No one has taken the bait to answer if they think Tonto would have handled Zach the same way and Wally & Clara the same way because they know the answer is no, yet so many are wanting to lay Tonto's mantle on him. They forget it took Tonto years (age & life experience) to get there. I don't think anyone has told Mark how to write anything. Simon Legree, David Copperfield, Phil Connor and many other fictional characters evoked strong emotions in people and launched reform movements and even a war. It is a testament to the skill of the writer that such emotions and discussions of real life issues can take place. You change directions quickly and never with textual evidence to back the change of directions. There is no text on exactly how or why Zach wound up at Don Bosco, but it doesn't appear Wally & Clara initiated it nor objected to it. I think if they had objected that Robbie would not have crossed their wishes to help Zach move. Who ever gave Zach the idea of going to Don Bosco probably helped set up the host family as well. Since Robbie helped Zach with the process, I am going to assume Robbie vetted the host family and Wally & Clara trusted his judgment since they wouldn't know much about prep schools and the like. If Robbie felt Zach needed a car in NJ, he would have bought him one, but he probably would have made that decision in concert with Wally & Clara. And yes, I recognize I am assuming a lot here too based on a few sentences of Chapter 51, but we do know that the NJ opportunity came up quickly and that Robbie helped and that going at all was Zach's decision. As to why Zach made the decision to move, I think it is pretty obvious. He didn't have any friends in Claremont and no one was going to accept his Road to Damascus conversion. He didn't need to worry about that at Don Bosco where he'd have a blank slate. I called Zach a troublemaker because Will has and Zach has admitted to it, but says he has changed. That "change" is barely three months old, if that. I am still open to hearing about how Will went from hating Zach on Sept. 28, to buying him a car before Oct. 2. Will goes on to admit he got the deluxe model Durango partly to annoy Wally and then he mentioned it was "as nice as Gathan's" to annoy everyone more. Will Will listen when someone points out that was a shitty thing to do? Rub salt in the wound? How is he supposed to learn and grow if there is no one he listens to?

I am struggling to see Zach's "accomplishments". Since Zach isn't a main character we don't know the exact circumstances under which he wound up at Don Bosco, but it "happened pretty quickly" which to me means it happened during summer which means two or three months ago? And before that Zach admits he was doing steroids, "partying like a rock star" and screwing anything that moved. So through the content provided in the story he has been this changed person now for three months? He doesn't even have his first semester grades yet so what has he accomplished in the past few months that warrants the reward of a car for the "changed person" he is now? Wally & Clara have nothing to judge the new and improved Zach on yet. As to visiting Zach. Wally is a blue collar guy with a Midwest blue collar mentality. Do we even know if Wally and Clara know how to travel? How to book flights into Newark, get a rental car, etc? Guys like Wally don't like taking days off work to play around (which is how I think he would view taking time off work to go see Zach play) because they feel it lets down fellow workers. Yes Wally might have old fashioned ideas like children shouldn't drink and do drugs, that they ought to obey their parents and that they ought to have to work for things they get, but that doesn't give someone, who has really known Zach less than a month, the right to interfere in the relationship. I like Will, he is still my favorite character, but the way he has been portrayed in the story recently reminds me of some of the kids and their families that I have to interact with in my professional life; rich kids and popular actors who have no grasp of reality, are enabled by their adult handlers, think the rules of common courtesy and respect don't apply to them and look down on people who aren't them. My comments were not so much directed at Mark since there is always a method to his madness, but at the "Saint Will" supporters who think Will is the second coming of Tonto, that he is this wise, sage 15 year old who is always smarter than any adult in the room and understands everyone and everything perfectly and only he has the clarity of thought to know the exact right thing to do in every situation. I enjoy the banter of the forums, it is a virtual book club where we sit down and talk through the story with Mark playing the part of Oprah. Of course they are fake people, but I was just as passionate in my dislike for Holden Caulfield and said so in my 10th grade English class when all my classmates loved him. Zach has been a trouble maker, as we saw in previous stories. Do we know that his parents have put him down, or have they expressed disappointment in his behaviors and said they didn't think he could handle having a car? Zach might not feel he has any true friends but Will, but whose fault is that? Zach chose the loser friends he had in Claremont. He has only recently come to the realization that they are losers and that he himself was becoming or was a loser. There is also zero textual evidence that Wally & Clara shipped him anyplace. In fact, from the text it appears that it is Zach who wanted to leave and get a fresh start and that after initial reluctance, Robbie helped him. What problems are there with Zeke, Brent and Trent that Brad would need to step in and "help" them?

From my review of the newest chapter. Now, down to business. Can I just say what a complete, immature fucking little asshole Will is? Besides being a snob (he admits he is one, but comforts himself with the thought he isn't as bad as JJ) he is rude, thoughtless and arrogant. He has that special brand of arrogance reserved for teen boys who think they know better than more experienced, older people. Less than a month ago (Sept.28) he hated Zach, but a couple of good lays and within 3 days they are bestest buddies and Will buys him a car. Four weeks of talking on the phone, half of which is phone sex, doesn't give Will more knowledge about Zach than the man who raised him the past 16 years. Knowing what class Zach likes better or which host parent he likes better (as if a teen boy would talk to his father about that) isn't the measure. Will still doesn't understand he did wrong to Wally and Clara. A simple apology to Wally and Clara when Wally brought it up would have diffused the whole situation, but instead Will acts as if it is Wally in the wrong and Will gets mad and ruder. Is that how Tonto would have handled the situation? How JP would have? Isidore? Will was all self-righteous about Isidore & Claire being snobs, then gave the family shit about making Austin feel unwelcome, but this is how he treats Wally and Clara? Two good people who raised four kids of their own and took in Ella and Gathan from their awful home life? These are the people whose parenting skills Will is questioning? Someone needs to straighten the brat out.

First things first. Thanks for the chapter, it is always a treat to see a new one pop up Now, down to business. Can I just say what a complete, immature fucking little asshole Will is? Besides being a snob (he admits he is one, but comforts himself with the thought he isn't as bad as JJ) he is rude, thoughtless and arrogant. He has that special brand of arrogance reserved for teen boys who think they know better than more experienced, older people. Less than a month ago (Sept.28) he hated Zach, but a couple of good lays and within 3 days they are bestest buddies and Will buys him a car. Four weeks of talking on the phone, half of which is phone sex, doesn't give Will more knowledge about Zach than the man who raised him the past 16 years. Knowing what class Zach likes better or which host parent he likes better (as if a teen boy would talk to his father about that) isn't the measure. Will still doesn't understand he did wrong to Wally and Clara. A simple apology to Wally and Clara when Wally brought it up would have diffused the whole situation, but instead Will acts as if it is Wally in the wrong and Will gets mad and ruder. Is that how Tonto would have handled the situation? How JP would have? Isidore? Will was all self-righteous about Isidore & Claire being snobs, then gave the family shit about making Austin feel unwelcome, but this is how he treats Wally and Clara? Two good people who raised four kids of their own and took in Ella and Gathan from their awful home life? These are the people whose parenting skills Will is questioning? Someone needs to straighten the brat out.

I think so too. I just wanted to be on the record before this next chapter

I think the section I quoted showed pretty clearly Zach is not on the outs at all with Wally & Clara. What text can you point to that would lead you to believe he was? Now if Will had said, "Gathan is coming", okay I could see that, but it seems the only person in the family Zach has an issue with is Gathan. Zach didn't get sent away to school by Wally & Clara, Zach chose to go away because he got the scholarship to a school where he could get recognition and get away from bad influences in his life. As to the other quote, I took it as a rhetorical question because the question was so general and the general answer is obviously, no, you don't and I haven't recognized ALL my mistakes within minutes or even hours. BUT, that isn't the case here. If I did something and within hours my two grandfathers, my father, my cousin and other family members were pointing out the mistake and the implications of the act I would stop and ponder it. I wouldn't go into passive aggressive attack mode, deflect off me, call the people I had wronged and disrespected idiots and blame them for the actions I took. Being 16 and not having a car doesn't mean you are trapped and being controlled. Will was a victim of his own logic. He says basically that Zach hates being "controlled" by the family in NJ and it is because Zach doesn't have a car that the family can control him. 1) Zach didn't have a car in Claremont, but Wally & Clara clearly didn't and couldn't control him 2) MOST 16 year olds do not have cars and yet manage to get around and are not captives in their homes So yes, Will clearly had the opportunity to reflect on his mistake, but even after it was brought up to him I still don't think he has called Wally & Clara to apologize for stepping all over their prerogatives as parents. Will is free to think they are idiots and don't know how to raise kids, but it isn't his place to interfere.

The trouble with that philosophy is that it assumes there is some normalized standard of right and wrong, but when you get to draw your standards where you want them and I get to draw my standards where I want there is going to be conflict when the standards are different. As with Kitt and the discussion on Mendoza we can't get into this "well I wouldn't do that, but I am not going to tell someone else it is immoral." Hell yes you should. You shouldn't sleep with a relative's love interest, you shouldn't try to have sex with someone still mourning their spouse; there are all kinds of moral certitudes we ought to have, but when you start trying to divorce yourself from those moral norms to do what you want, you can't stuff that moral toothpaste back in the tube. You just have to live with the consequences of your own moral relativism.

Oh and in rereading some passages just to make I hadn't missed something I came across this gem from Will.

Then takes makes him a douchebag, one of the 10% What is the freaking question?????? You still haven't said TWICE now!