MESSAGE BOARD TOPIC #50

[Comicality]

Wow...are we up to topic FIFTY already??? Hehehe, cool! Especially considering all the weeks I missed!

 

Anyway...think about this. You're reading a story about 'Tommy', following his exploits, learning all about him and getting into his thoughts as a person. Then...'boom', you see a few line breaks in the text, and now...the story is being told from 'Jimmy's' point of view. Giving you a whole new outlook on the situation. Weird, right?

 

This week's question is...

 

= Do different points of view and perspectives between characters help or hurt a story? =

 

Do these different perspectives give you a much broader view of the series by showing it from someone elses eyes? Do they help to give the reader more information about each character, and maybe help to move the story forward by truly giving a three dimensional outlok on the story? Or do these changing persectives confuse and distract the average reader? Does it lose you or break the feeling that you have during a story? Let us know.

 

Then again, it may depend on how well the change of perspectives is done. With neccessity, skillfully, and with both parties sound completely different from one another. Maybe it works for some stories and not others. Who knows?

 

Let us know what you think! The board is open!

[lagomorph]

As a general rule, I can't stand when writers do this. It feels like cheating to me, like the author just couldn't decide on a point of view and said, Ah, screw it, I'll do both. If you want a three dimensional view, there are much better ways to go about it. I think third person omniscient is best, where the narrator knows everything; all thoughts, feelings, and actions.

 

The worst part about these switching first person stories is when you end up reading the entire story twice for no good reason. Say, for instance:

 

"When I finished speaking, he just stood there silently, with a shocked look on his face."

 

Then in the next chapter, every bit of the dialogue is repeated, and we get:

 

"When he finished speaking, I just stood there, unable to think of anything to say. I know I must have had a shocked look on my face."

 

Why? What is the point of this? Am I really getting into the mind of that second character? But I've seen this more times than I'd like to admit.

 

I want to say that a professional writer can make things like this work sometimes. Even then, there needs to be a really good reason for it. There's no point in defying convention just for the sake of defying convention. But for amateurs, I'd say learn the rules before you try to break them.

 

 

Val

Edited June 6, 2005 by lagomorph

[lurker]

Chapter 1 - Val's Opinion

 

As a general rule, I can't stand when writers do this. It feels like cheating to me, like the author just couldn't decide on a point of view and said, Ah, screw it, I'll do both. If you want a three dimensional view, there are much better ways to go about it. I think third person omniscient is best, where the narrator knows everything; all thoughts, feelings, and actions.

 

The worst part about these switching first person stories is when you end up reading the entire story twice for no good reason. Say, for instance:

 

"When I finished speaking, he just stood there silently, with a shocked look on his face."

 

Then in the next chapter, every bit of the dialogue is repeated, and we get:

 

"When he finished speaking, I just stood there, unable to think of anything to say. I know I must have had a shocked look on my face."

 

Why? What is the point of this? Am I really getting into the mind of that second character? But I've seen this more times than I'd like to admit.

 

I want to say that a professional writer can make things like this work sometimes. Even then, there needs to be a really good reason for it. There's no point in defying convention just for the sake of defying convention. But for amateurs, I'd say learn the rules before you try to break them.

 

 

Val

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Chapter 2 - Lurker's Opinion

 

Reading Val's post, I couldn't help but agree. Who wants to see the same thing repeated? There had to be a way to communicate all the thoughts and feelings if needed.

 

Ahhh, screw this...

 

Bravo, bravo, Val.

 

I couldn't have said it any better myself.

[Masked Monkey]

[i guess that means I'm just a story whore 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was under the impression that you didn't limit it to stories

 

Back to the topic... I doubt anyone really likes 'double' dialog, but i understand that as an author grows in thier craft, there is a need to try new things, and I suspect that the ability to shift nararator/character POV is one of the most difficult aspects of the craft. When I pay for a NY Times Bestseller, I expect mastery, for a web author all I want in growth.

 

Snow Dog

[JamesSavik]

= Do different points of view and perspectives between characters help or hurt a story? =

 

It all depends on how well it is executed. Sometimes it works out beautifully.

 

Where it doesn't work is when the change in point of view (POV) is gimmicky, cutesy, confusing, or does not yield unique information or advance the plot.

[reapersharvest]

I'm doing multiple POVs for Underworld, but only until the two protagonists meet and they combine. Until then, I like to think it just builds up. The other POVs come and go as little sideplots in a way from characters who are only there for a bit.

[JamesSavik]

An example of an excellent story that uses changes in POV is Angel by Gabe Duncan.

 

Link to Angel

 

What makes this such a powerful and well executed story is that Gabe structures it in such a way that the changes in POV compliment and support each other like the threads of a rope.

 

There are clean and clear breaks between Points of View so there is no confusion or disconitunity.

[reapersharvest]

I couldn't agree more on the double dialog. I don't mind if different sections of a story are told by different characters. Providing there is a clear demarcation line so that there is no confusion as to who's head we're in at the moment and it's not a rehash. But if the story line is interesting I will over look all ill's. I guess that means I'm just a story whore 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yeah, I would never use multiple POVs to explain the same scene. Then I have "Memeneto" And I always usea border between them. Subtle, without labels like <<<<<<DAMIENS POV>>>>>>> I've seen that done in stories and I hate it.

[JoleChristopher]

i like to know what everyone is feeling/thinking in a story and i LOVE an author who can show this through 1 POV only 'cause every thing else confuses me. i hate it when i am reading one POV and then it switches and some times i don't even realize it until i am completely lost. i guess some are okay but the repeat thing does suck and i stop reading a story immidiately when suporting characters have a POV too. i do not think it is ever needed and is a waste of space. it bores me. i do not like when a story switches from first to third person either. it is almost as confusing as switching POVs.

[Guest Cookie]

Sometimes POVs are good, they bring the story a whole new depth and bring the reader to feel the characters emotions deeper then if it were done in third POV.

 

But sometimes, like JoleChristopher said, there can be times where the POV is changed to a different character and you don't even realise it until you're half way through and completely confused.

 

I've read a few where once through one paragraph the POV changes, and then the next paragraph it changes again, and it does this all through a story, that gets a little too much.

 

I love writing in POV because I find it way easier and it helps me follow the story line with just concentrating on the one person.

 

Third POV is good too, because then you can show all other plot lines at once, and you can, in small ways, bring out all the characters emotions in one.

 

Really it's the way the writer does the story, how they plan it out that is the point. But I always find it best to either stick to the one character if in POV, or just stick with third person if you can't make up your mind which one to stay with.

 

In any form its good if the author knows what they're doing. But I have realised that POV isn't as popular as third persons, I have no idea why though, I mean I love it, I love them both, it's never bothered me.

 

Cookie

[RTJ]

I think telling stories from different points of view, help to enhance the overall effect the author may want to impose. It takes a skilfull author to pull this off though, and in the wrong hands can make a story choppy and fragmented.

[Agincourt]

I can count on one hand, with fingers left over, the times that I thought shifting points of view were helpful in a story. In fact, the only occasion I can think of where it really worked to good effect is William Faulkner's novel, The Sound and the Fury. But Faulkner was a true master, and the way he carried it off (opening with Benjy's point of view, but not announcing it, and then changing to his sister's point of view, again without announcement) built the story very subtly. And the significant thing is that Benjy was retarded, something that only becomes evident after a number of pages, which gives his point of view a unique twist.

 

I despise and abhor stories that carry legends like "Joey's Point of View" and "Alan's Point of View." It's just too artificial and jarring. In addition, in virtually every case, there's no real good reason to be doing it. In fact, many times the shifting point of view spoils the story, giving away critical information far earlier than need be. In the most hackneyed version of this technique, Alan and Joey are secretly in love with each other, but neither dares reveal it. Yet through the author's revelation of each one's interior thoughts, we readers know the truth, and the only thing left in the story is waiting to see whether one or the other is ever brave enough to reveal their true feelings. It's like the classic Columbo story architecture from television -- the first act of the television episode shows the audience who the villain is as he or she carries out an ingenious and tricky plot to murder someone while escaping detection, and the whole show is about whether detective Columbo will be shrewd enough to figure out who the culprit is.

 

As a rule, I prefer stories to be told from one point of view. It is much easier to identify with a single principal character, and to experience things from that one person's perspective. The main issue there is choosing between a first-person presentation and a third-person/single-POV presentation. In the latter version, it is still possible to introduce separate scenes where the POV character is not present (e.g., in the beginning of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows where we see the gathering of Death Eaters at Lucius Malfoy's house), even though most of the book is presented from the lead character's POV in scenes where the POV character participates. That's generally not feasible in a first-person presentation, although Elizabeth Peters gets around this in her first-person Amelia Peabody/Egypt mysteries by occasionally introducing supposed excerpts from "Manuscript X" that describe "external" information.

 

All of this is really a matter of literary convention. In the 19th century it was far more common for a writer to be far more intrusive, and to write from a more omniscient third-person perspective. By modern standards, this kind of approach tends to seem quaint and somewhat patronizing, although there are some who pull it off ("As Joey hung up the phone, little did he suspect how significant those last few words would turn out to be"). It's a bit like Peter Falk reading "The Princess Bride" to Fred Savage, where the film audience is periodically reminded that they are being told a story rather than simply experiencing it. But again, William Goldman is also a master.

 

Bottom line for me: Better to start out following well-established conventions that readers are accustomed to, and honing basic writing and storytelling skills, before venturing into the unconventional.

 

A

[Comicality]

I don't think I've ever really figured out a comfortable way to really actually 'change POVs' in a single story before. I think that would be extremely difficult to pull off in a first person story.

 

Now, there have been many times where I felt that there was definitely room for another point of view to be told and given a voice of its own...but I always started a whole other story or series to do it. Like "New Kid" and "Kiss Of An Angel" are now always written as a maching set. They intertwine quite often through certain meeting of characters or joint situations involving them all. The way to avoid the 'double speak' is just a matter picking out the parts of conversation or detail that would be important specifically for THAT particular character, and being slightly vague about the rest. For example:

 

From Randy's POV:

 

I saw Ariel waking past me in the locker room, his eyes glazed over, a goofy smile on his face. "Dude, what's with you today?"

 

"Huh? Oh, hey, Randy." He was SO lost. He said he didn't even SEE me there. "I was just...thinking." He sighed.

 

"Okayyy...well hey, there's a party going on later on tonight and everybody's going, there's gonna be a DJ and everything." He didn't say anything. "Ariel?"

 

"Huh?"

 

(So that whole exchange is what RANDY sees. But for ARIEL'S story...)

 

From Ariel's POV:

 

He kissed me. Tyler actually kissed me today. Oh wow...this feels so awesome. My heart fels like it's gonna burst any minute. He's so dreamy. "Dude, what's with you today?" Came a voice from besie me, and I saw Randy standing in the locker room.

 

"Huh? Oh, hey, Randy. I'm sorry, I didn't even see you there. I was just...thinking." I said.

 

"Okaaayyyy...." Randy said, and he started to talk to me again, but my mind just couldn't focus on anything other than that kiss. That perfect moment when my lips touched his. "....Ariel?"

 

"Huh?"

 

 

So basically, it's the same scene, same events, but I always try to cut pieces out of the dialogue or the details to make them familiar, but not exactly the same. If you personalize it to each character, and think how they think...the POV change can be much more effective. What Randy sees and feels should be different from Ariel sees and feels. So now you're getting more information about why he's being so spacey. It's just something that takes a bit of practice. I like to have fun with it though.

 

Then there was the "Rainy Day Udate", whereI tried to combine six different stories and have them all take place at one party on the same night during the same storm. Which was REALLY hard to pt together because the timing had to be spot on. But there were a few key characters and events that all had to happen at that party to show readers that it was indeed the same party.And then you got to see those events from 6 different angles as to why they happened and how they effected everyone else. It was fun...but difficult.

 

ONE story that I really do switch POV's a lot is "Skylight", but that's one of the only stories that I've ever writen in the third person! I've always been most comfortable writing in first person POV, so that was a learning experience and a challenge for me, and I had to spend a LOT of time going over it again and again, making sure that I wasn't slipping up somewhere. It's an entirely different discipline, I think. you sort of have to learn to get into your character's heads in a completely different way. I liked it though. And the way I tried to keep the many MANY different POV's in order was by trying to 'link' them all. Making sure that one character crossed another's path in the story, and sort of 'passing the baton' so they could run with it from there. Making sure that people can follow what's going on at all times. Again, it was a challenge, but I'm pretty proud of how it turned out so far. I can't wait until the next chapter is finished. It's really different from everything else I've done. So I want to get it right if I can.