To Flame or not to Flame.....

[Mark Arbour]

OK, I'm kidnapping this topic from the soapbox and bringing it here, just because I want to. And because I wanted to do a poll.

 

I'll share my personal evolution on this issue. I should do it in my blog, but no one reads it.

 

Effeminate gay men used to really bother me. It bothered me to be around them, to interact with them, even to watch them. I'm not sure why. As a married, closeted bi-guy, I think the best answer to that was that it made me feel that there were no "normal" (read straight-acting) gay guys out there, and it totally removed being openly bisexual as an option for me, because I couldn't see myself traipsing around with a pink boa. This was in the 1980s, when I was a Republican.

 

Then I met a few effeminate gay guys and they were a blast. No, they didn't blow me. They were just fun to be around. And I realized that they were just being themselves and I was cool with that. If a guy was masculine, that was cool. If he was effeminate, that was cool too. That being said, I wasn't attracted to effeminate guys at all. It was, for me, a total turn off.

 

Then a couple of years ago I had a student who was very effeminate. This guy was really sexy. I'd never found a flamer that I wanted to be with before, but damn, I wanted to f**k this kid. Just something about him, the way he moved, the way he batted his eyes, the way that he was who he was, and was comfortable with it, made him a star in my J/O fantasies for a long time. Now before you all freak out on me, I never did anything with him, it was all fantasy.

 

So I've kind of come full circle on this issue. I attribute that to personal growth, but who knows.

[W_L]

Hey love can be found in unexpected places. If you see the kid again, send me his phone number........quietly *(Makes sure my BF doesn't know!)

[Tiger]

Interesting topic! I am actually mostly attracted to masculine men. That's not to say that some of the effeminate guys don't turn my head. Take Sammy Case for example. He is HOT, and I'd take him in a New York minute. And why wouldn't I bring an effeminate guy to dinner? I look at the indivudual, not something they cannot help. As for me, I'm more of a masculine type, though my voice often makes it obvious that I'm gay.

[AFriendlyFace]

Interesting topic, Mark!

 

Of course everyone knows that I don't have much to say on this issue

 

 

In all honesty though, the poll is difficult for me to answer because I personally have a strong preference for a sort of 'versatility', middle of the road, not too femme, not too butch sort of guy. So I'd personally have preferred some sort of middle or "other" option. However, I gave the poll a shot anyway:

 

 

Which type of guy are you most attracted to?

 

In terms of looks most definitely "effeminate." I'd describe it more as the pretty boy, twinkish sort of look. I like guys who have a smaller build (height and weight), smooth, soft looking skin, and are lightly muscled or "toned". I prefer guys with longer hair, not long like shoulder length, but more like the plenty of full bangs sort of look. I'm fairly flexible on all this though.

 

That's really only physically though. My preference for personality in terms of someone I'm dating is definitely for them to be well-balanced and middle of the road. Romantically I prefer guys who aren't "big queens" (just romantically, I'm fine with "big queens" in general), but who are obviously gay.

 

Actually, I have the delightful benefit of almost exclusively being attracted to gay guys. Very few straight guys do anything for me, unless they are the really pretty type and have a very chill, non-butch, emotive type of personality. I could fall for a pretty looking, straight hippie/surfer/emo type but that's about it.

 

As I've said many times before, I like "masculine" gay guys just fine, but I'm usually not interested in them romantically. Ideally my type is the twink with the balance in personality. Failing this balanced boy, I'd lean slightly toward effeminate over masculine for my boyfriend.

 

That's not to say I couldn't date a "masculine" gay guy under the right circumstances...it's just more unlikely and he'd have to be very open-minded and willing to balance our roles in the relationship.

 

Would you invite and effeminate man to dinner with your family?

Of course. I'd also invite a masculine gay. I'd invite anyone I cared about and wanted to introduce.

 

What type of guy are you?

 

The versatile, middle of the road type.

 

I always like to embrace the best of each and discard the worst (which is of course just my opinion about what is good and what is bad in each). So it's really hard for me to pick one or the other for myself. It completely depends on what we're talking about, and even in most specific areas I prefer a mixed, go with the flow, let's see where I end up sort of approach.

 

One of my main obstacles in dating is that I frequently find myself annoyed by being locked into a role. I flipflop alot between "I don't need you to look after me. Don't you dare control me, even in a nice way. Let me help you and quit being such a tough guy." to "make me feel special and pretty!"

 

I dunno, it's almost impossible to pick. In the absence of a total balance and assuming the disparity is only slight, I'm more comfortable relating to others from a slightly more masculine perspective; however, by myself, just me in my head, probably slightly more feminine (or effeminate for the sake of this poll ).

 

 

 

Told you guys, I didn't have much to say about this

 

-Kevin

Edited February 21, 2009 by AFriendlyFace

[SRevol]

Love works alone, and for me is all about the brain and how the boy sees the world n_n, i

[AFriendlyFace]

Love works alone, and for me is all about the brain and how the boy sees the world n_n, i

[Mark Arbour]

I Very few straight guys do anything for me, unless they are the really pretty type and have a very chill, non-butch, emotive type of personality.

 

 

Damn.

[JamesSavik]

NOT to flame.

 

It's annoying and it attracts big knuckle dragging rednecks that I have to beat to death if we are to escape and survive.

[Caipirinha]

Kevin kept mentioning balance in his post. Well my answers are a sort of balancing act themselves, except that I'm more comfortable with one person balancing the other out instead of finding perfectly balanced individuals.

 

I'm effeminate. Very effeminate. And I'm also very okay with that. It is what it is. Of course I wish I was a little more butch so I so could blend in with the common folk better, but I'm not. My voice is high, my taste is outrageous, and no matter what I'm doing (with few exceptions) I'd rather be shopping for shoes. As far as I know none of my friends have first names; they're all honey, sugar, lady, or girlfriend. I don't lisp, but I do drag my S's. And the only thing I understand about football is the spandex.

 

I'm literally only a matter of inches away from being a girl. Which, in my mind, explains why I am attracted to very, very, masculine guys. I like taller guys with wide shoulders and broad chests. I like 6-packs and biceps. I like muscles. Not gross body building muscles but something like Justin Spring (Olympic Gymnast) or Ryan Reynolds (Circa Blade 3). I like guys who drink beer, can make sense out of football, and get hard over cars.

 

I guess really though it has less to do with actual looks than it does with gender roles. When I go out shopping I want to go out shopping with my girlfriends, not my boyfriend. When I get home from shopping I want to sit in the kitchen with my girlfriends and complain about how stupid our boyfriends are, as they sit in the next room screaming at the t.v. because someone missed a pass. I want my guy to fix my car, because Lord knows I don't know how to and he also knows I don't want to pay someone else to. I want to drag him to sappy movies and romantic dinners, and I want him to drag me to gory slasher movies and car shows. And I would so much rather be the (more) thoughtful one in the relationship.

 

Is that to say I'm never attracted to effeminate guys? Absolutely not. But I think at the core of it, I really do think that opposites attract because they balance each other out, and I wouldn't want to date someone who was just like me.

 

And for the record, yes I would invite an effeminate guy over to meet my family. I agree with Tiger; you have to consider the whole individual, not just the mannerisms.

[myself_i_must_remake]

i struggle over this a lot, and i do say struggle. i don't know where nature and social forces and other things start and end on this issue.

 

i used to be a pure closet case. my interests and lack of interests used to make people think i was gay, but now about half of people can tell just from the way i carry myself, dress, and my mannerisms. (although i think my going to a jesuit university throws a wrench in this. because i'm different in general, i think they just assume gay, even though they'd do the same to someone who acted different but was straight.)

 

anyway: i wouldn't answer the above questions because i don't know if i'm masculine or effeminate. i like to think i'm just kind of free of either. i take what i like and encorporate it into my personality. i find that in role-models and possible lovies, i'm attracted to people who work what they do. i model myself after a lot of my professors, especially the ones that seem in-sync with themselves. i can think of both male and female professors that do this, and i emulate all of them in some way. as for people i'm attracted to, they tend to be masculine, but i think that's because i don't discriminate between gay and straight, and there just happen to be more straight guys than gays, and more straights tend to act (i think whether they want to or not) masculine. i have, however, in the past seen certain effeminate gays that i wanted to get with just because they way they carried themselves seemed natural to them. there are many effeminate gays, however, that i feel the opposite way with (and super masculine guys), where it seems like a show.

 

i think if i say anything more i'll just start repeating myself.

[AFriendlyFace]

Damn.

 

I did say there might always be exceptions, lol

 

I guess really though it has less to do with actual looks than it does with gender roles. When I go out shopping I want to go out shopping with my girlfriends, not my boyfriend. When I get home from shopping I want to sit in the kitchen with my girlfriends and complain about how stupid our boyfriends are, as they sit in the next room screaming at the t.v. because someone missed a pass. I want my guy to fix my car, because Lord knows I don't know how to and he also knows I don't want to pay someone else to. I want to drag him to sappy movies and romantic dinners, and I want him to drag me to gory slasher movies and car shows. And I would so much rather be the (more) thoughtful one in the relationship.

You know, I can actually respect that. I don't quite understand it directly myself though, but I can respect it. Actually I usually find it very difficult to have any respect for gender roles. So you phrased that in a really good way!

 

I was with you through the shopping and sitting with your girlfriends in the kitchen...but then you sorta lost me

 

I want a boyfriend I can go shopping with; then later we can go rollerblading. I want a guy with whom I can just sit with while we discuss our thoughts and feelings; then we can hit the batting cages. I want a boy I can get a manicure with; then we can go rock climbing (okay, maybe we should get the manicures after the rock climbing ). I'll be happy to change his flat tire if he'll take out the trash. I'll cook dinner if he does the laundry. We can take turns cleaning the bathroom. We can have a lot of sex and a lot of cuddling. I'll pay for dinner and he can get the tickets. He can do all the driving when we're together. If anyone ever gives us any crap I'll tell them off or kick their ass (even though I'm a pacifist). I'll keep things tidy and organized around the house. He can do all the vacuuming and dusting.

 

That's sorta what I'm after.

 

i struggle over this a lot, and i do say struggle. i don't know where nature and social forces and other things start and end on this issue.

Very good point.

 

anyway: i wouldn't answer the above questions because i don't know if i'm masculine or effeminate. i like to think i'm just kind of free of either. i take what i like and encorporate it into my personality.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

 

i have, however, in the past seen certain effeminate gays that i wanted to get with just because they way they carried themselves seemed natural to them. there are many effeminate gays, however, that i feel the opposite way with (and super masculine guys), where it seems like a show.

That's also a very good point, Billy! There's nothing sexier than confidence or people just being themselves

 

 

Take care all

Kevin

Edited February 21, 2009 by AFriendlyFace

[Mark Arbour]

I want a boyfriend I can go shopping with; then later we can go rollerblading. I want a guy with whom I can just sit with while we discuss our thoughts and feelings; then we can hit the batting cages. I want a boy I can get a manicure with; then we can go rock climbing (okay, maybe we should get the manicures after the rock climbing ). I'll be happy to change his flat tire if he'll take out the trash. I'll cook dinner if he does the laundry. We can take turns cleaning the bathroom. We can have a lot of sex and a lot of cuddling. I'll pay for dinner and he can get the tickets. He can do all the driving when we're together. If anyone ever gives us any crap I'll tell them off or kick their ass (even though I'm a pacifist). I'll keep things tidy and organized around the house. He can do all the vacuuming and dusting.

 

That's sorta what I'm after.

 

I take it you're single then.

[AFriendlyFace]

I take it you're single then.

LOL, yes I am. But on the bright side I have people with whom I do most of those things anyway. I just don't have one particular person whom I do them all with. In reality, expecting to share all those things with anyone person probably isn't very realistic anyway.

 

I'm quite happy single, and not all that eager to shake things up. If the right person came along that I meshed well with and with whom I could share most of the important things on my list, then I'd certainly pursue that, but in the meantime I'm much happier on my own than in an unsatisfying relationship.

 

-Kevin

[Mark Arbour]

Looking at this poll, and it's albeit small sample, the results are interesting. Masculine men are perceived as being more attractive (64% preferred them whereas 8% preferred effeminate men).

 

Most guys who answered this poll perceived themselves to be masculine (80% vs. 20% for effeminate men.)

 

A question: Do you think gay men identify themselves as masculine, even when they're more effeminate, because they find masculinity more attractive?

[Caipirinha]

You know, I can actually respect that. I don't quite understand it directly myself though, but I can respect it. Actually I usually find it very difficult to have any respect for gender roles. So you phrased that in a really good way!

 

I was with you through the shopping and sitting with your girlfriends in the kitchen...but then you sorta lost me

 

I guess we differ at gender roles. It seems like you are a good mix of both masculine and feminine roles, so it makes sense that you would want the same and that you wouldn't understand someone's desire for more specified gender roles.

 

Me personally, I grew up in a family with very very clearly defined gender roles...I just happened to grow up in the wrong one. My brother would sit at the table after dinner playing cards with the men. I would help clear the table, wash the dishes, and get dessert ready for the men...with the women. In fact dinner guests used to comment that I "worked like a woman" which sounds borderline offensive but it was a compliment (women are recognized as harder workers in the area of Italy my parents come from.)

 

So I guess because I fit so well in to the one gender role, it's natural to me to want someone outside of it, once again to balance it out.

 

I guess I could take the long way and give you avery verbose answer (as if I haven't already) but I guess in the end, really, we're both looking for a balancing act--we're just looking for it in different ways.

 

 

A question: Do you think gay men identify themselves as masculine, even when they're more effeminate, because they find masculinity more attractive?

 

 

Makes sense to me. I mean, to me, it seems like people are attracted to what they wish they were. But then again, what do I know. :-)

[corvus]

Guys in tutus are equally repulsive as bodybuilders. On a purely physical level, I'm attracted to guys who take care of their bodies, i.e. who don't look like they'll be getting diabetes and heart disease in the next fifteen years. I think it's a reasonable product of evolutionary behavior.

 

On the other hand, overt masculinity and effemininity (there has to be a better word -- but I refuse to use 'femininity') seem, to me, to be symptomatic of cultivating a sort of exaggerated persona... which is a behavior I don't really understand. Actually I do, but it's a bit of a turn off. It may be a false impression, of course, but -- well, I'm sure it's a complicated confluence of conflicting perceptions of personas and their personal and social implications...

 

As to whether I am masculine or effeminate... I'd wash dishes before fixing the car, but honestly, who'd want to crawl under a vehicle and get all oily and disgusting? Only someone who perceived an inherent positivity in fulfilling this traditional masculine role, I suppose, but... eh. Too lazy. If I do end up dating a tutu-guy, though, I'll fix the car, I guess.

[SRevol]

Makes sense to me. I mean, to me, it seems like people are attracted to what they wish they were. But then again, what do I know. :-)

 

Maybe sometimes is true, but wouldn

[Adrian Michaels]

Hmm... This is really interesting.

 

I guess with a lot of things dealing with gay identity, I like to think there's kind of a spectrum.

 

So, if you were to put really masculine on the left, and really effeminate on the right... I would probably be somewhere just right of center.

 

1. I'm a showtune belting, jazz-squaring, theatre nerd. I follow up on people like Idina Menzel, Kristen Chenoweth, and Roger Bart.

2. I bake a mean chocolate cake, complete with homemade frosting

3. Had to teach almost my entire dorm wing how to iron a shirt the proper way. I also have an unhealthy obsession with scarves and school uniforms.

4.I write fanfic for goodness sakes.

 

On the other hand,

1. I go camping a lot, know how to start a fire, split fire wood and am capable of fishing.

2. Can: change a tire, change the oil and do minor car stuff. (emphasis on the MINOR)

3. Do the gross yard work that most of my friends would faint over.

4. Snowmobile, 4-wheel and all that stuff (nothing with two wheels though... fell off too many times.)

 

Gender roles have always kind of interested me. I study them as both a college student and an activist, and grew up in a family where both parents shared the same tasks within the home.

 

In all honesty, there are times when I'm sure I can get a little flamey. It's usually when I get excited over something I'm passionate about. Eventually I calm down, and the rainbows fade back into the heavens and all that.

 

However, I sometimes have a really, reallly, really, hard time with uber-Flamers. For example, there is a guy that I work with at school, and there is not a doubt to anyone in the room that he's gay. I swear he just emanates glitter.

 

And I do feel bad, because I'm all about accepting people for who they are, and getting past difference to reach a common goal. That doesn't mean there aren't days when I just want to yell, "THIS IS WHY WE CANT GET MARRIED!" at him while spraying him with a fire extinguisher until he's brought down a few levels. *cough*

 

Besides that one guy, I am fairly comfortable will all kinds of gay guys. It just comes with the territory after a while. Everyone has something special to bring to the table.

 

As far as the dating goes, I've been attracted to both types. I'm not really sure if I have a "type" (Unless you count British, red-headed, in argyle sweaters...but how often does that come along?)

 

I'd bring a femmy guy to dinner too. They usually tell pretty good stories

[Caipirinha]

Maybe sometimes is true, but wouldn

[methodwriter85]

I put myself somewhere in the middle. Like musicals and showtunes, but I don't walk around giving fashion tips. I mean, if I get a cool piece of clothing, I'll talk about it- but Carson Kressley I am not.

 

I also really like beer bongs and wearing the same hoody for three days. I think that's my inner frat-boy peeking out.

[Sir Galahad]

Effeminate men really don't bother me at all, we are what we are. What really bugs me is when they make it so OTT you know it's an act for attention.

We were out Thursday night with some straight friends at a gay pub, & this one guy, very drunk, was just screeching every 2 minutes or so. You know the kind I mean, darlin this darlin that & making a really high pitched put on camp laugh! Grrr.

In case you think he's like that normally, he's not, have known him for a while.

Now, as to if I'd date one, well yeah, have been for the last 5 years, lol. He's not by any stretch a flamer, but as soon as you speak to him you would know.

When he's had a few drinks, well there would be no doubt.

It's really strange really, cos I always went for the totally butch masculine type, so this was new for me, but it works.

As to where I put myself, well I just asked D, & he reckons definatly masculine. So there you have it, pays to have a second opinion.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Sir_Galahad

[Tim1001]

hey Kevin , if you'll do the dishes, i'll ALWAYS clean the bathroom. i despise touching dirty dishes

 

damn forgot to answer the questions

 

i guess im attracted to masculine types, but not the muscle bound, knuckle dragging type, although that'll do in a pinch but someone who is taller than me, broader than me, and able to take apart machines and put them back together with a reasonable expectation for them work correctly afterwards.

 

would love to say im well balanced but im not (in more ways than one) i cant begin to understand sports, but i totally get why shopping (REALLY shopping) takes a LEAST 6 hours. i love to camp and hike, but i refuse to kill so no hunting or fishing (that why god made grocery stores). i cant dance, everytime i try i get all stiff legged, but my hips can put belly dancers to shame while im walking i dont clap and squeal, but with my voice, i dont have to

 

and of course i would invite a fem guy to a dinner party, we make the best desserts and dont drop things on the table linens

Edited March 3, 2009 by Tim1001

[jfalkon]

The admiration theory is interesting. I find that I admire many of the qualities of the men I am atracted to but they are never the ones that define them as feminine. I generaly like the more "pretty" boys but I don't aspire to be like them in that way.

 

There is one thing I would like to point out. Being feminine does not nescesarily make a person anoying and vice versa.

[JamesSavik]

There are some str8 people that think that all gay men are effeminate and if you're not, you are being deceitful in some way.

 

Of course they are slack-jawed yokels with family wreaths instead of trees but they are out there.

[JamesSavik]

Being feminine does not nescesarily make a person anoying and vice versa.

 

It does if that feminine characteristic/quality is never knowing when to shut up.