Homosexuality in History

[hh5]

I don't recall seeing a topic of this sort in the forums. So I thought we should start one.

I like to explore here what it was like to be gay in the various parts of history.

 

Our history books pretty much eliminates how gays participated in history.

I wonder how many people think we started in the 1980s?

 

So here's one to start it off. I wish each of us to share what kind of participation in history took place.

To help shape how we all took part in shaping our lives of today.

 

Oscar Wilde

 

Oscar Fingal O'Flahertie Wills Wilde (16 October 1854 – 30 November 1900) was an Irish writer and poet. After writing in different forms throughout the 1880s, he became one of London's most popular playwrights in the early 1890s. Today he is remembered for his epigrams, plays and the circumstances of his imprisonment, followed by his early death.

I saw the movie about him played by Stephen Fry. It was very interesting to see how unspoken and being gay in the UK was like how the upper class viewed it. They just tolerated and never spoke about it. Wilde was always interested in the young college men.He had many affairs. Apparently, Queensberry found out and then the troubles for Wilde began. Thus he was outed and it got Wilde arrested and charge for being a sodomite who preys upon the naive young college men. Two years hard labor broke Wilde. He never regain his health back.

 

The movie illustrated a love affair he had with Douglas. Wilde honored the arrangement of exile and then he left the UK to live in Naples. He was reunited with Douglas. They lived a happy life up until the families threaten to cut off their funds. They separated and later on Wilder died.

 

 

- - - - -

 

 

In contrast of today, I don't think something like this would have been so much trouble. It depends upon a case by case basis. But today we would not be put to two years hard labor.

 

Perhaps its the change in legal consenting age when your legally an adult and can earn your own living.

 

Back then the issue was money ... living on the family money and their say in your life.

If you you still depend on it then they can still have a say on what you do with your life.

Hence that happen in Wilde and Douglas case. The secret was out again.

 

- - - - -

 

I think there are more stories out there in history we don't discuss as much as we should. Its important to learn how it shaped our lives of today. I really like to see and learn the real truth that the history books doesn't allow us to know about.

 

Like during the wars ie: WW2 and other kinds of stories ... perhaps in the wild west ... ancient times ... etc

 

Its like getting to know our roots in history.

[Zombie]

During the Nazi years in Germany jews and gays were sent to the concentration camps along with gypsies, the "feebleminded" and several other categories of people who did not meet the Nazi standards of "full human beings".  Jews were forced to wear yellow identification badges, gays had to wear pink ones.  We know the terrible fate that befell so many of these wretched people during the war years.

 

But what is not so well known is the tragedy that occurred after the war. When the Allies defeated Germany and the Nazi Regime, the political and remaining Jewish prisoners were released from the camps (the regular criminals- murderers, rapists, etc.- were not released for obvious reasons).  But the homosexual prisoners were never released because Paragraph 175 (a clause in German law which prohibited homosexual relations) remained West German law until 1969 when it was moderated (but not finally abolished until 1994).

 

So these poor innocent men, whose only crime was to be gay, watched as their fellow prisoners were set free, but they remained prisoners for up to 24 more years.

 

It makes you weep.

 

The following links contain much important and interesting gay history, including the terrible suffering inflicted on so many homosexuals:

 

http://en.wikipedia....i/Paragraph_175

 

http://www.lambda.org/symbols.htm

 

http://en.wikipedia....d_the_Holocaust

Edited November 3, 2011 by Zombie

[JamesSavik]

In France during WWII many gay people were part of the French Resistance (called the Marquis in rural areas).

 

One very well connected gay Parisian who worked on the trains and acted as a courier between cells was captured and tortured to death by the Gestapo without betraying any of his contacts.

 

Young gay men were also used as assassins. They would get picked up by Nazi officers, go off to have a tryst and kill them.

[hh5]

Wow, Zombie and Jamessavik ... that something I never knew ....

 

Zombie I only knew a small sense of the story ... not the camp but a love between gay jew n gay nazi ... before the war turn on their love ... I have heard about being gay within the ranks of the Nazi ... but very little do I really know

[Celethiel]

Romans and Greeks were in many ways a very bi culture...as it is pretty well known... but then the Romans knew no limits in gneral.but i seem to remember reading the Mayans actually seperated their gays into seperate compounds, though i don't know what they did with them besides that, they may have been a type of preisthood for all i know.

I don't remember what the Egyptian's veiws on them, i do know that the Hebrew/Christian societies were really the ones that truly demonized gays in culture, especially the later of the two.

 

there are several famious people whom are thought of as gay or bi, some good some really bad, Elizabeth Batory for instance was bi, and completely psycho, as was was it De Saude. But then it is thought by some that Elizabeth the first of England was really a boy, and gay...which would be amusing to say the least, unfortunately she ordered before her death of no autopsy, so it will remain a mystery forever.

 

of the Nazies there was a group of them, i beleave they were called the Brown Shirts whom were notorious for homosexual activities which eventually ended their brigade to the Gestapo.

 

The Templars were accused of Homosexual acts in their liquidation, another thing that can never truly be proved, BUT this is an all male cult of church people....whom would be very sexually frustrated...and i am pretty sure they were no more inhibitied then modern people, they just didn't say it out loud. Being Publically gay in the Post Christianized Roman period was pretty much a death sentence, especally after a few Pope Mandates....

[Cyhort]

Leonardo DaVinci is also another possible/probable homosexual historical figure. He even used at least one of his (possible/probable) lovers as a model for religious paintings he did of angels, which is all kinds of deliciously ironic.

[Celethiel]

Leonardo DaVinci is also another possible/probable homosexual historical figure. He even used at least one of his (possible/probable) lovers as a model for religious paintings he did of angels, which is all kinds of deliciously ironic.

 

did he also paint mona lisa because there was some controversy that it was actually the painters male lover that modeled that painting.... which i would find horribly funny.

[Cyhort]

did he also paint mona lisa because there was some controversy that it was actually the painters male lover that modeled that painting.... which i would find horribly funny.

 

Yeah he did and I actually read about that a while back. And it would be pretty damn funny and I hope it comes up during the inevitable Da Vinci code remake in 20 or so years, lol.

[Celethiel]

Yeah he did and I actually read about that a while back. And it would be pretty damn funny and I hope it comes up during the inevitable Da Vinci code remake in 20 or so years, lol.

 

*snickers* I'd laugh to no end, i think there was a famous Classical Composer that was of "questionable" orientation...but i am not sure which.

[Nephylim]

History is full of homosexuality. I could write pages.

 

It seems that in lots of civilisations where the men went off to war they would have no contact with women, sometimes for years and they would have only themselves to turn to. Celts, Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Phoenicians, all were recorded as having homosexual relations. In many cultures it was not only tolerated but accepted,

 

In Greek and Roman society it was well accepted that wealthy, powerful or learned men would take young male pupils, many of whom were sexual partners. The process was called paiderastia. Welathy families would be eager to find places for their sons with a well connected patronand it could lead to political advancement. These boys often went on to marry and settle with women but were still free to take male lovers, although in the case of Roman society it was not socially accepted to be a bottom (submissive) so that part of the relationship was usually kept secret

 

Alexander the Great doted on his lover, Hephaesteon and was devastated when he died.

 

In Celtic society homosexuality was widespread and socially accepted.

 

That will do for now I think

[sorgbarn]

If our knowledge of homosexual men in history are rare, I believe our knowledge of homosexual women are even rarer and even less documented (correct me if I´m wrong here).

 

As you have already started mentioning specific persons ,I would like to continue with the Swedish author Selma Lagerlöf (1858-1940). She was the first woman to receive the Nobel prize (1909) and was well known not only in Sweden but internationally as well, not the least with her contribution to silent film era, many of her novels and short-stories were adapted for the screen, and in a period when spoken language in film was no issue, her films were seen abroad as well.

 

Up until 1990 public image of her was the one of a talented but never the less harmless fairy tale lady: educated teacher, never married, slightly limp etc. In 1990 her private corresponding were made public, and revealed a close and emotionally (physically?) intimate relationship with two other women, of which one lasted almost 40 years. Lagerlöf often had Sophie Elkan come with her on her many travels abroad, and Valborg Olander often assisted her in her writing as well as in more every day tasks. in the letters you can see a clear rivalry between the two women, and Lagerlöf trying to please the two of them: pleads and love assurances showing in some of the letters.

 

I usually mention her private relations when talking about her in class, lifting the question how it might have affected her writing (hopeless or forbidden love a recurring theme in her novels). My question to you - is that the right way to go about it, or shouldn´t it matter and therefore not be mentioned?

[MarkSen]

Michaelangelo was also possibly a homosexual. I'm not sure if he was or questioning, but that's what I read about him. And that'd be really ironic because he painted the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. (I've been there, by the way. Awesome art!)

[hh5]

I usually mention her private relations when talking about her in class, lifting the question how it might have affected her writing (hopeless or forbidden love a recurring theme in her novels). My question to you - is that the right way to go about it, or shouldn´t it matter and therefore not be mentioned?

 

Perhaps you have to mention other novelist who draw from personal experience. Are you a teacher? Just remember your audience, they could get tired of hearing only one author as an example.

 

Thank you for mentioning this author. The question is how does this personal experience affects other people lives?

[hh5]

Michaelangelo was also possibly a homosexual. I'm not sure if he was or questioning, but that's what I read about him. And that'd be really ironic because he painted the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. (I've been there, by the way. Awesome art!)

 

what about the models of the sculptures and the paintings? it be nice to see any mentioning this in their literature or papers of the time.

Has any one lay on the floor to look at the ceiling? it hurts the neck lol

[sorgbarn]

Perhaps you have to mention other novelist who draw from personal experience. Are you a teacher? Just remember your audience, they could get tired of hearing only one author as an example.

 

Thank you for mentioning this author. The question is how does this personal experience affects other people lives?

 

Yeah, I´m a teacher (senior high school level would be the best comparison I think). And no, she wouldn´t be the only example of an author who´s personal life contributes to her or his writing, neither do I bring up authors´ personal life as the only influence on their work, the society at the time along with literary patterns for the era are equally important for understanding an author.

 

I think Lagerlöf and other gay persons, contemporary or historical, can serve as important role models, giving historical roots to now living. In Lagerlöf´s case as woman and lesbian: she lived a an nontraditional life in a period when women really didn´t have that many options - and she did it extremely successfully.

[Celethiel]

Japanese Feudal society with Ripe with homosexual tendencies, indeed I was just listening to a history channel program on the Samurai and it was discussing things along the lines of Female/male marriages were things of the political and there was no actual such thing as the thoughts that this is homosexual, or bisexual behavior. yes Alexander the Great had a male lover, as did I beleave it was the Emperor Hadrian, which ever it was, he was one of the "better" Roman Emperors, his boyfriend though ended up drowning in the Nile river, and the Emperor turned him into a god, i found the tale to be very amusing, I am pretty sure it was Hadrian.

[hh5]

Yeah, I´m a teacher (senior high school level would be the best comparison I think). And no, she wouldn´t be the only example of an author who´s personal life contributes to her or his writing, neither do I bring up authors´ personal life as the only influence on their work, the society at the time along with literary patterns for the era are equally important for understanding an author.

 

I think Lagerlöf and other gay persons, contemporary or historical, can serve as important role models, giving historical roots to now living. In Lagerlöf´s case as woman and lesbian: she lived a an nontraditional life in a period when women really didn´t have that many options - and she did it extremely successfully.

 

I think in your last msg .. I think you meant 1890 instead of 1990 ... you can edit your entry ... it was getting confusing.

 

The interesting thing for her life time between 1858 n 1940 is that she exposed to three periods of writings ... the 1800, early 1900, 1940s which is very close to contemporary writing. She has access to those period authors which is the roots to an interesting knowledge base for any writer can have compared to today. ie: Its like she could have written a letter to HG Wells. That sure would be something compared to anyone today ever getting the chance to get to know period authors that are classically famous.

 

It looks like from her titles she could have written something like the Lord of the Rings but I really presume its more King and Queen. I really don't have a general idea of the type of stories she writes but gosh she really kept busy in her craft.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selma_Lagerl%C3%B6f

 

I wonder how many potential writers can acclaim their roots to her influence.

Has she written any thing that contains Lesibian or Gay characters in her novels?

 

Again, Thanks for your contribution to this thread its enlightening.

[hh5]

yes Alexander the Great had a male lover, as did I beleave it was the Emperor Hadrian, which ever it was, he was one of the "better" Roman Emperors, his boyfriend though ended up drowning in the Nile river, and the Emperor turned him into a god, i found the tale to be very amusing, I am pretty sure it was Hadrian.

 

Gosh, Roman government creating gods in Egyptian or roman religion. Certainly can not tell them about separation of church and state. lol

But perhaps its more romantic ... to remember one's boyfriend as if he was a god ... I wonder what influence he had on its ppl while he was alive.

[Celethiel]

Many of the ancient societies didn't beleave in a seperation between Church and state, Rome And Egypt were actually the most notably of these where Emperors and Pharoahs were considered gods in mortal flesh especially the second of the two, Alexander the Great actually was later percieved as descended from gods, and indeed he wanted to be thought of as such while he was alive, but that is off of topic....I think it's romantic as well though to immortalize your love that way.

[sorgbarn]

I think in your last msg .. I think you meant 1890 instead of 1990 ... you can edit your entry ... it was getting confusing.

 

The interesting thing for her life time between 1858 n 1940 is that she exposed to three periods of writings ... the 1800, early 1900, 1940s which is very close to contemporary writing. She has access to those period authors which is the roots to an interesting knowledge base for any writer can have compared to today. ie: Its like she could have written a letter to HG Wells. That sure would be something compared to anyone today ever getting the chance to get to know period authors that are classically famous.

 

It looks like from her titles she could have written something like the Lord of the Rings but I really presume its more King and Queen. I really don't have a general idea of the type of stories she writes but gosh she really kept busy in her craft.

 

http://en.wikipedia....a_Lagerl%C3%B6f

 

I wonder how many potential writers can acclaim their roots to her influence.

Has she written any thing that contains Lesibian or Gay characters in her novels?

 

Again, Thanks for your contribution to this thread its enlightening.

 

Actually, no, I didn´t get it wrong, I just didn´t make it clear enough. Her letters were kept locked up for many years (50) after her death, some kind of stipulation of her will, or possibly on request by her remaining relatives. So she was definitely in the closet during her lifetime, even though there probably were rumors. When the letters became public (1990) they changed the way she had earlier been looked at. For instance the men (well 1940 they were men!) writing about literature could wonder how she wrote so vividly and believable about love when she was nothing but an old spinster. Little did they know!

 

And no, no gay or lesbian characters in her novels (at least not those I´ve read) - unobtainable (and forbidden) love is a recurring theme though. I guess it would have been social and professional suicide if she had, not to mention dangerous for her. Same sex sex was illegal in Sweden til 1944, later you "only" risked mental asylum.

 

The literary period during which her first novel was published is in Scandinavia called national romance (I don´t think it has an international parallel). It´s a period of nationalistic romance writing and a response to the realistic period preceding it. Her novels are set in the countryside, has elements of supernatural (ghosts, visions etc.) and often characterizing common people/farmers/villagers. She is also known for renewing children´s schoolbooks with her narrative geography book about a boy called Nils, travelling across Sweden on the back of a wild goose. Not quite The Lord of The Rings .

[Celethiel]

To Sorgbarn, her books sound like they were very interesting to read, but you must remember Lord of the Rings while epic is actually a hard series to read, in high school i was not able to get through the series. I liked the Hobbit a lot more then the trilogy, and Tolkien went over the deepend of writing when he wrote the follow up to the Trilogy, the Silmarillian was almost impossible to read and keep strait at times, speaking of which it amuses me that Ian McKellen is gay.

[Zenobia]

Hey there; I hope I can contribute a little bit to this topic.

 

To those of you who speak/can read a bit German, I'd like to recommend a recently publishes book about the last known survivor of a concentration camp who was imprisoned due to his homosexuality (unfortunately, he died in August): Alexander Zinn, "Das Glück kam immer zu mir": Rudolf Brazda - Das überleben eines Homosexuellen im Dritten Reich, 2011. ("Luck always came to me"). I haven't read it yet but I think it should be known and as far as I can see it is recommendable (the publisher is a serious one which has mostly academic books).

You can look at the entry wiki gives about Rudolf Brazda (you will also find another biogrophy there, originally written in French and obviously translated into Spanish and Italian).

 

As far as former times are concerned, it is difficult to say to what extent modern categories can be applied (which only means: If you asked a man/woman in ancient/medieval/early modern times whether he/she was homosexual, he/she wouldn't neccessarily understand what you mean by that or what images you have in mind when you think of this term). It is true that there was the kind of relationship between young boys and men in ancient Greece which is known as paiderastia but it can hardly be a model for what we would consider a modern relationship - rather there were certain conditions which had to be fulfilled in order to create such a relationship (which, given that the circumstances were right, was seen as something desirable). There was a distinct paradigm for this kind of "love" (the term ancient text sources use is "eros"). One should also never forget that we are talking here only about a certain social class, i. e. the upper class of society.

Then it is important to state that this kind of "love" was typically Greek (Athenian), it was not common in Rome.

Sexual intercourse between men as such was not condemned but in Greece as well as in Rome it was dishonorable for a free man to be the bottom.

Without doubt Ancient homosexuality portrayed in texts and in the arts was highly important to modern men because... well, because it existed, I assume. At the beginning of the 20th century homosexuality wasn't accepted and wasn't normally mentioned but ancient Greek (and also Latin) literary sources contain a vast amount of references to it. Sometime these passages were not translated (note the term "ad usum delphini") but one should know that it was common for men of these times (here we're again talking about the upper class/classes) to read Greek and Latin fluently (at a German "Gymnasium" they had like 10 hours Greek and 8 hours Latin a week). So - history of reception is an important feature when we talk about ancient homosexuality. I think there is a nice scene in the movie "Maurice" (and in the book) where Maurice and his fellow students have to translate a passage from Aristotle; when it comes to a passage about the love Zeus had for Ganymedes, the professor interrupts and orders to omit the passage.

 

By the way: One shouldn't forget Sappho. Which leads me to point to the different modern terms for homosexual men or women - 'Lesbian' meaning a homosexual woman, whereas 'gay' is the term used for homosexual men and then also for homosexual women. Perhaps a native English speaker could say how common it is to use "gay" for women?

[Zenobia]

Oh, one other thing comes to my mind: There were laws against homosexuality in (late) antique legislative texts. As the modern western/European law is based on Roman law, it's just interesting to keep that in mind; I don't know how the question of continuity has to be assessed in this case.

[hh5]

Wow, its great to learn all this history. Thanks for the clarification that when we associate the word GAY ... that also has meaning for homosexual woman as well. How much we automatically think of the man ... we incorrectly segregate it to the word LESBIAN as meaning for GAY for homosexual women. Then again some people would also think Gay means "same sex love" as well.

 

Thanks for reminding me of that scene in Maurice ... I love Hugh Grant movies

 

I found the First Married Gay Couple ... in the world ... of all places Denmark ...

so there's nothing Rotter(dam) in Denmark ... forgiven the pun on an old saying.

 

http://en.wikipedia....and_Eigil_Axgil

 

Axel Axgil (3 April 1915 – 29 October 2011) and Eigil Axgil (1922 – 22 September 1995) were Danish gay activists and a longtime couple. They were the first gay couple to enter into a registered partnership anywhere in the world following Denmark's legalisation of same-sex partnership registration in 1989, a landmark legislation which they were instrumental in bringing about. They adopted the shared surname, Axgil, a combination of their given names, as an expression of their commitment.

A Triumph for Love in Denmark

May 26, Copenhagen, Denmark

In the photograph, the Axgils radiate pure joy. Newly married, they lean into each other across the seat of the horse-drawn carriage, their hands clutching glasses of champagne, their lips locked in an ecstatic kiss. The crowd swirling around them in front of Copenhagen's town hall could pass for a regular group of wedding guests, if it weren't for the boom mikes jutting over their heads. That horde of reporters and cameramen is what gives it away: the pair in the photo are no ordinary newlyweds. It was Oct. 1, 1989, and, dressed in matching suits, Axel and Eigil Axgil had just become the first gay couple in the world to legalize their union.

[Zombie]

A form of sanctioned gay marriage existed in Islamic culture right up until around the 1940s in the border region between Libya and Egypt. This was explored, through interviews, in the French documentary-style film Tarik El Hob