Suicide

[Jet]

...I am INCREDIBLY intimidated by the thought of meeting other gay people face to face.

 

Your fear must come from all the bad stories you have been fed about gay people, not to mention your therapist telling you to sleep with as many people as you can. That would scare me too because that is not who I am or what I am all about. That's like trying to teach someone to swim by throwing them in the pool and letting them thrash about. Trust me when I say that was bad advice.

 

Matthew, you have met gay people before and you just didn't know it because we are everywhere, and I mean everywhere. When I was trying to accept my own homosexuality, I felt like I was the only queer on earth. This was before the Internet, so I didn't have web sites to read and chat rooms to talk to other gay people. What I learned was that a lot of people who I had assumed to be straight were not and that sometimes you just couldn't tell the straight people from the gay people (my gaydar is more finely tuned now ). There is nothing to be intimidated about because we are just human beings like everyone else, the only difference is we are attracted to the same sex. I can understand you feeling like you do, because when I first came out (and I was older than you), I was taken to a gay bar by my first boyfriend, voluntarily because I wanted to go out dancing. I was always under the impression that as soon as I walked in the door they were going to drag me into the back room and rip my clothes off and have their way with me. Well, it never happened (darn it). I found most gay bars to be more civil than straight bars and the people there very fun to be around, probably because we all had something in common, we were all gay and could be comfortable being around each because we didn't have to worry about what other people thought.

 

I'm not saying go out to a gay bar (unless you want to), but what I am trying to say is that you don't have to be afraid of gay people. I think it was good advice for you to go to a gay-only group so you could meet people and see for yourself that we are not freaks, but normal people. If you don't have the guts to go alone, is there someone else you can go with? Do you have any gay friends? Is there a gay youth group in your community? That is an excellent resource for someone like you to get together with people that you could share what is going on in your life and in your head. It would allow you to see you are not alone in your feelings.

 

What you don't need right now is another therapist. What you need is some good friends to talk to and who will give you support and get you through this part of your life. You need to talk to people who have been through what you are going thru and also some that are going thru it right now. You are not alone in this. All of us that are gay have had to go thru the process of accepting our homosexuality and dealing with the conflicts in our head. It was very difficult for some of us, maybe most of us (I didn't finally accept it until I was in my late 20's), and the fact there are people out there saying we are evil doesn't make it any easier. But most of us got thru it, and for me personally, when I did, I felt like a huge weight was lifted from my shoulders and for the first time, felt comfortable with who I was, the rest of the world be damned.

 

... I honestly think people would be better off without me. I really don't see it affecting my friends that much....

 

Why don't you ask them to be sure? No matter how they feel about you, YOU NEED TO LIVE LIFE FOR YOURSELF, NOT TO PLEASE THEM!!!! I would bet that you haven't really experienced love...to me that is the greatest thing about life. I can't explain in words, you just have to experience it to understand it, and once you do, it changes your life and your perspective on things. If you end your life without experiencing love, then you will miss probably the greatest part about living.

 

So, Matthew, going back to your original question, 'is suicide intrinsically wrong', who cares? Some will say yes, some will say no. Which answer is right? Here is another question...is homosexuality wrong? Some will say yes, some will say no? Which answer is right? Who cares? I am gay, I have no problem with that, and I don't really care whether anyone else is OK with that or not because I live my lifefor myself, not for them. I am not going to let those bastards ruin my life and just to spite them all I am going to live a long and happy life. Happy because I can accept people as they are and happy because I have met the love of my life and intend on growing old with him, and happy because I figured it all out before I died!

 

Matthew, I hope you will change how you feel about life and will come along with us on this great adventure!

 

Jet

[JamesSavik]

Well, now the situation has taken a turn for the worst. I was telling a friend(or so I thought) about how I'm feeling. He talked to a counselor at school and it went up the chain and came back down and now they're trying to evict me from the school dorms. Life just seems to be getting constantly worse. I'm so sick of it.

 

 

Despite all the rubbish about free speach in this country, there are some things you just can't say. The list is: making threats against President Loopy, making bomb threats, threatening to shoot up a school and discussing suicide.

 

There are some state laws that dictate what has to happen in this case: typically the suicidal individul is taken in for 48 hours of observation. It has to do with liability. If you actully did kill yourself and the school knew about it, they could be sued. There is also the disturbing tendency for suicidal people to put a few people out of their misery before they check out.

 

Look kid, what you are going through is not at all uncommon. Gay and lesbian youth are the most at risk for suicide for the very same reasons you are depressed. The key here is that we all lived through it. I got outed when I was 13 the summer before I started 7th grade in a redneck town in Mississippi. (Consider how much fun that was.) I'm not saying the experience didn't f*** me up but I managed to survive it.

 

I know that it is tough for kids that come from strict religious backgrounds. I was Baptist. You've got to learn to take what works for you, leave the rest and live your life. Do you really need a religion that calls you an abomination and teaches you to hate yourself?

[Matthew]

Despite all the rubbish about free speach in this country, there are some things you just can't say. The list is: making threats against President Loopy, making bomb threats, threatening to shoot up a school and discussing suicide.

 

There are some state laws that dictate what has to happen in this case: typically the suicidal individul is taken in for 48 hours of observation. It has to do with liability. If you actully did kill yourself and the school knew about it, they could be sued. There is also the disturbing tendency for suicidal people to put a few people out of their misery before they check out.

 

I'm very aware of the laws regarding suicide, specifically here it's 72 hours that and behavioral expert can have you held before they have to go to a judge to continue it. Luckily, as uncomfortable as I got with my therapist, he is incredibly useful in that he is dead set against any unwilling commitment of anyone. He pretty much kept them from putting me anywhere and told them they'd increase their liability because it would aggravate my state of mind.

 

This is why I talked to a friend who I thought I could trust, and not the university. He betrayed that trust and told people at the university, I'm having alot of issues not being completely pissed off at him.

 

I can't see how suicide could be an option for a Domaholic.

 

There's maybe 15 or 20 chapters of "Desert Dropping" to go, and then there's the sequel to TLW about Dennis, and Dom's thinking of trying another short story, but it could turn into an epic.

Believe it or not, this has actually crossed my mind.

[Howie]

I'm very aware of the laws regarding suicide, specifically here it's 72 hours that and behavioral expert can have you held before they have to go to a judge to continue it. Luckily, as uncomfortable as I got with my therapist, he is incredibly useful in that he is dead set against any unwilling commitment of anyone. He pretty much kept them from putting me anywhere and told them they'd increase their liability because it would aggravate my state of mind.

 

This is why I talked to a friend who I thought I could trust, and not the university. He betrayed that trust and told people at the university, I'm having alot of issues not being completely pissed off at him.

 

i think the intentions of this friend are important. maybe he thought he was doing the best thing. you're in a better position to judge that. we are all human, and we all make mistakes. to be angry at someone because of a mistake they made while their heart was in the right place wouldn't be good. i'm sure you can think of examples yourself, when you have done the wrong thing for the right reasons, i most certainly can in my life.

 

ich w

[libbonobo]

Under the assumption of no afterlife, "John" does not exist after the successful suicide attempt, therefore nothing can be deduced about his state of 'happiness' or 'sadness'; in fact, as libbonobo points out, any such statement is vacuous . HOWEVER, it would be fair to say "he pain that John was in has ended" without making any statements about the current (and vacuous) state of John. As John's life has ended, any pain he is or isn't feeling, based on any existance or nonexistance, is (tautologically) of a wholly different quality.

 

Even if you assume an afterlife the statement is true, and depending on your beliefs, he may be in more pain, but it is still different pain, ergo, the pain that John was in has ended.

 

:king: Snow Dog

 

P.S. got that pain med refill today .

 

Yes! At last. Thank you. Exactly as you say, you can say that "the pain John was in has ended"; you might even be able to say that "the total pain in the world has decreased" (as long as John's death did not create more total pain in those still existing than he had before he died).

 

The trouble is, also exactly as you say, that we cannot say that John has benefited or that his state has improved (and he certainly cannot say that). Most people who commit suicide do not do so to benefit the total world pain, or even to benefit their own pain, but to benefit themselves -- which is the one thing that cannot be said. (I say most in acknowledgement of those who do believe that their sacrifice somehow redeems or otherwise improves the state of the world. But these individuals generally either have some fervent (or rabid) religious belief excluding them from the atheist category, or are suffering delusions from a mood or thought disorder.)

 

It occurs to me from sumbloke's mention of bodies that there is one way for an atheist to believe in afterexistence without afterlife: by identifying "you" with your body. In that case, "John is no longer suffering" is no longer vacuous -- there is a really existent "John" which is really no longer suffering.

 

Is that what you meant, sumbloke? If so, I apologize for misunderstanding, but I have a much more brain-centric view of the world, and identify "you" with your brain activity, not your body. No brain activity, no "you", even if the body is still alive; and certainly if the body is dead, then "you" do not exist.

[sumbloke]

Yes! At last. Thank you. Exactly as you say, you can say that "the pain John was in has ended"; you might even be able to say that "the total pain in the world has decreased" (as long as John's death did not create more total pain in those still existing than he had before he died).

 

The trouble is, also exactly as you say, that we cannot say that John has benefited or that his state has improved (and he certainly cannot say that). Most people who commit suicide do not do so to benefit the total world pain, or even to benefit their own pain, but to benefit themselves -- which is the one thing that cannot be said. (I say most in acknowledgement of those who do believe that their sacrifice somehow redeems or otherwise improves the state of the world. But these individuals generally either have some fervent (or rabid) religious belief excluding them from the atheist category, or are suffering delusions from a mood or thought disorder.)

 

It occurs to me from sumbloke's mention of bodies that there is one way for an atheist to believe in afterexistence without afterlife: by identifying "you" with your body. In that case, "John is no longer suffering" is no longer vacuous -- there is a really existent "John" which is really no longer suffering.

 

Is that what you meant, sumbloke? If so, I apologize for misunderstanding, but I have a much more brain-centric view of the world, and identify "you" with your brain activity, not your body. No brain activity, no "you", even if the body is still alive; and certainly if the body is dead, then "you" do not exist.

 

Right. Well.

 

OK. Libbonobo has demonstrated pretty clearly that there's no meaningful way to say that anyone is better off - because for example their pain has ended - after they kill themselves. It's not easy to grasp the nettle since the argumentation about what seems to be such a very substantive issue is largely technical (or formal if you like).

 

I hadn't been meaning to argue that the "surviving" body was free from pain - though I thank you for offering what would have been an elegant face saving exit! Although I'm a materialist of sorts I would claim that sensation/consciousness is only identifiable in living bodies (including brains of course). So, where does this leave me. I wanted to say that suicide might be allowable in some circumstances and that even if you required that an act bring about some good, then you might still allow it. My problem is that I still want to say that!

 

Let me think on 't.

[glomph]

Believe it or not, this has actually crossed my mind.

 

I believe it.

 

I intended it as a perfectly serious post.

 

There are surely more important things to live for, but I can't really predict that you are going to meet a guy within 5 years that will make all the hell between now and then worth all the pain. (Though I bet there's a really good chance of that, and it would be a shame for you not to stick around and find out if it does happen.)

 

But I can pretty safely predict that Dom's got a lot of great chapters ahead for us, and it would be a shame for you to miss them.

[Masked Monkey]

Bottom line for me is that with all the fun that libbonobo and I have had discussing this, I will notice if you stop posting hi_college_guy, and like libbonobo that disappearence will sadden me.

 

:king: Snow Dog

[Howie]

for some reason, i find this whole discussion here heart-warming.

 

the only other discussion i'm actively pursuing here in gay authors is this evolution thread, which is rapidly going nowhere.

 

but even there we're still being half-way civil...

 

there are so many nice people here, who want to help. i don't think we in this community are that unusual here. okay, being gay we all know how it is to a greater or lesser extent, what it means to feel ostracised, to hate oneself. and we also know the joy of conquering this.

 

i personally find it cool the way we rally together to offer support.

 

and there are hundreds of thousands of people on this planet who would do the same, hi_college_guy.

 

maybe you do find five idiots to every nice person out there, but that's not a bad rate. i think you'd be surprised, how supportive some people are, how much some people do care.

 

howey

[glomph]

this evolution thread, which is rapidly going nowhere.

 

It's a failure to adapt.

[Myr]

I moved this here, so it could continue.

[Masked Monkey]

It's a failure to adapt.

 

No, it was designed to go the way it did.

 

:king: Snow Dog

 

(pulls tongue out of cheek, hoping to find a quality replacement)

[Matthew]

Well, thanks for reopening the thread.

 

Well, I went to the gay group and it left me really freaked me out. All of the guys were nice, but I was completely freaked out. They were all very flambouyant, which is fine for them, but it's not what I am. I feel uncomfortable being the only one in the room not acting like that. I don't feel like I fit in anywhere. On the upside, apparently I can get paid for going to the meetings.

 

I still think I'm going to kill myself. I still feel like nothing's changed and noone cares. I'm tired of putting it off.

[NickolasJames8]

Well, thanks for reopening the thread.

 

Well, I went to the gay group and it left me really freaked me out. All of the guys were nice, but I was completely freaked out. They were all very flambouyant, which is fine for them, but it's not what I am. I feel uncomfortable being the only one in the room not acting like that. I don't feel like I fit in anywhere. On the upside, apparently I can get paid for going to the meetings.

 

I still think I'm going to kill myself. I still feel like nothing's changed and noone cares. I'm tired of putting it off.

please

Dont do it......if you dnt think that there are people who care about you, then you should go back and re read this thread.....

 

Everyone who posted here cares about whether you live or not.

[sumbloke]

Well, thanks for reopening the thread.

 

Well, I went to the gay group and it left me really freaked me out. All of the guys were nice, but I was completely freaked out. They were all very flambouyant, which is fine for them, but it's not what I am. I feel uncomfortable being the only one in the room not acting like that. I don't feel like I fit in anywhere. On the upside, apparently I can get paid for going to the meetings.

 

I still think I'm going to kill myself. I still feel like nothing's changed and noone cares. I'm tired of putting it off.

 

One of the things I had to get used to when I started going to a gay youth group when I was 14 was simply that not all gay boys are like me - not all gay boys are alike anybody after all - and also that if I was honest I didn't really like all the gay boys I met (I dunno why but I used to get on better with the gay girls - story of my life).

 

The fact is that I did think for a while that I'd never find people I liked and would fit in with but that was really missing the point. What I got out of going to youth groups was mostly confidence and that confidence really allowed me to start being more outgoing in the wider world - not to hang out more and more with exclusively gay people. I have lots of friends who are like me in one way or another - whether it's music, religion, skateboarding or films - and most of them are straight: that's the way the world is and to be honest it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is not being with gay people but loving myself and wanting to be around people who accept that I'm gay without bigotry.

 

I fit in lots of places and not all or even many of them are gay. While you - for good reasons - are very focussed on the problem of your own sexuality you probably won't feel you fit in anywhere but if you start to accept your sexuality unconditionally then you'll be able to make friends honestly and without reservation; without worrying if they are gay or not.

 

You're not the rarity you think you are - trust me. There are lots of gay men out there who have similar feelings about flamboyantly gay people or about promiscuity (me, I'm not that concerned about flamboyance but promiscuity pretty much leaves me cold). I think that the confidence to go out in the world and open yourself to the possibility of meeting them will only come though when you recognise your own self-worth and reject the judgments of your sexuality that cause you so much anxiety.

 

So, please, start to love yourself. If you can't feel it in your heart at least try acknowledging with your head that gay is good - as good as straight anyway. You've heard people's philosophical arguments against suicide and their retelling of their own experiences and feelings, so I'll just add one thing: suicide is a very permanent solution to what is probably a temporary problem.

 

peace and loving kindness,

 

sumbloke

[Howie]

Well, thanks for reopening the thread.

 

Well, I went to the gay group and it left me really freaked me out. All of the guys were nice, but I was completely freaked out. They were all very flambouyant, which is fine for them, but it's not what I am. I feel uncomfortable being the only one in the room not acting like that. I don't feel like I fit in anywhere. On the upside, apparently I can get paid for going to the meetings.

 

I still think I'm going to kill myself. I still feel like nothing's changed and noone cares. I'm tired of putting it off.

 

going to the meeting may well still prove to be a positive thing.

 

if you kill yourself, the one's who have driven you to it win.

 

you've got to fight.

 

howey

[Matthew]

going to the meeting may well still prove to be a positive thing.

 

if you kill yourself, the one's who have driven you to it win.

 

you've got to fight.

 

howey

 

Maybe I don't want to fight because I know they're right. Maybe it's not ok to be gay.

 

On a different note, my mother just came up to me and we had the following dialog:

mom "when are you going to talk to me"

me "what do you mean"

mom "when are you going to realise that i'll love you no matter what and talk to me about your problems"

me "i don't know what you mean"

 

so this was wierd dialog I could have done without.

[Myr]

Well, thanks for reopening the thread.

 

Well, I went to the gay group and it left me really freaked me out. All of the guys were nice, but I was completely freaked out. They were all very flambouyant, which is fine for them, but it's not what I am. I feel uncomfortable being the only one in the room not acting like that. I don't feel like I fit in anywhere. On the upside, apparently I can get paid for going to the meetings.

 

I still think I'm going to kill myself. I still feel like nothing's changed and noone cares. I'm tired of putting it off.

 

There are plenty of us out there that you don't know are gay unless we tell you or you see us with boyfriends.

 

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I know how you feel. I have thought about it. But I always find something to cling to and strive for. Everyone in this thread obviously cares. You aren't alone.

 

Myr

[Matthew]

There are plenty of us out there that you don't know are gay unless we tell you or you see us with boyfriends.

 

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I know how you feel. I have thought about it. But I always find something to cling to and strive for. Everyone in this thread obviously cares. You aren't alone.

 

Myr

 

 

I'm looking for something to cling to, a reason to live. Instead the more I look the more hopeless I feel about my future and the world I live in. I'm so tired of being convinced that things will get better and then comint out even more disappointed than ever. I just want to end the cycle.

[DomLuka]

Okay, don

[Howie]

Maybe I don't want to fight because I know they're right. Maybe it's not ok to be gay.

 

On a different note, my mother just came up to me and we had the following dialog:

mom "when are you going to talk to me"

me "what do you mean"

mom "when are you going to realise that i'll love you no matter what and talk to me about your problems"

me "i don't know what you mean"

 

so this was wierd dialog I could have done without.

 

don't be silly, it's perfectly ok to be gay.

 

has somebody got a list handy of famous gay and lesbian people?

 

hugs

 

howie

[AFriendlyFace]

Hey College guy, I'm sorry I didn't see this post earlier, or I would have responded much sooner. The truth is no one can tell you "be happy" and magically make you happy. Happiness is a decision, it's true that sometimes you'll face circumstances which are BOUND to make you unhappy, it's also true that you may have a predispostion for depression, the chemistry in your brain may make it harder for you to be happy, just as the circumstances you find yourself in may make it more difficult for you to be happy. But, if you believe in free will, and I have a feeling you do, then ultimately YOU CAN BE HAPPY if that's your choice. You can seek out the medication you may need to be happy, and you can make the positive changes in your life which will improve your circumstances. It isn't easy, and it never will be, but it is worth it. Now for morality.

 

You seem like a very good person. You're clearly very concerned with what's right and wrong. No one should ever tell you not to value your faith, it's very very important. Furthermore I (personally) happen to think the Christian faith is the way to go. Mainstream Christianity doesn't accept homosexuality, it's unfortunate, and sadly it may never change in our lifetimes (and we're both fairly young). But Christianity isn't about sexuality, the major aspects of it, Faith in Christ, Grace, Love, Forgiveness, HOPE these are all totally independent of the issue of sexuality. I can't tell you what to believe, I can't even tell you to decide for yourself, but I can encourage it. Reconcile your faith and your sexuality, it's not only very possible but VERY worth it. I don't know what specific religion you are, but chances are it's one of the protestant religions which interprets the Bible literally. I was fortunate in that I grew up Catholic and attended Catholic school where they not only drove home the major aspect of Christianty, but also preached the importance of "The Church" and "Tradition", basically the way that works is, the Church interprets the Bible and tries to understand it in the context and purpose for with it was written (most Protestants hate that idea, ignore it for now please), I ultimately decided that the Catholic church had no real buisness telling me how to interpret morality, or mediating in my relationship with Christ, I did however FIRMLY accept the notion that these things should be done, BY ME. Morality and Faith are complicated, vital, but complicated. YOU need to figure out what you believe, YOU need to understand the context in which this stuff was written, and YOU need to figure out your values and how to live an upright life.

 

I can't tell you what you should believe, but I can tell you what I believe. I believe that the discussion and reference the Bible makes to homosexuality being wrong was CORRECT and viable in it's CONTEXT. This was written during the very early part of civilzation. There were greatly fewer people, and even fewer Jews, they DID need to reproduce and propagate the religion. That's no longer the case. There are certainly enough Jews and Christians out there now, and the religion is in no danger of extinction, the problems we NOW face deal more with overpopulation than underpopulation, it's logical to assume that reproduction is no longer a moral imperative. Let me give you a few other examples which I doubt many people would argue with. The Bible frequently mentions unclean food, food that wasn't killed using the right ritual or that was simply the wrong animal should not be eaten. Why? For a very good reason, if you pay attention you see that the rituals were more likely to mean the animal was killed and prepared in a sanitary way, the animals that shouldn't be eaten were the ones most likely to cause sickness. God was looking out for the ancient people, now however, we can easily kill and eat animals in a sanitary safe way, thus you don't see the majority of Christians paying much attention to those (very numerous) prohibitions. I believe it also mentions many prohibitions against mentrating women partaking in religious ceremonies, I can't really say what the context is for this, but I'm sure there was one, but do you see many Christian women nowadays skipping religous ceremonies because they're on their period? Mankind evolves, what's right in one age isn't right in another, what's wrong in one age isn't wrong in another. It's a mistake (in my opinion) to ever say a complicated, multifacited way of life is ever ALWAYS wrong (or ALWAYS right).

 

There are quite a few ways you may mess up with regards to your faith and your sexuality. I personally believe casual sex is wrong (just my opinion), but I think that's true for straight people too. I don't believe sex is wrong between two people who care very much about each other, and are ready to be in a serious, committed relationship (again just my opinion). I urge you to make your own decisions about this stuff, but I also encourage you not to just accept what you've been told at face value, THINK ABOUT IT YOURSELF. Jesus loves you, why would you be this way if there wasn't a reason? I can't say what the reason is, but I can say that I believe there must be some possiblity for you to do something good with it. Maybe, just maybe God has some terrific MAN in mind for you to spend the rest of your life with, and make each other happy. At the very least maybe you're supposed to exemplify positive aspects of homosexuality to the world at large, and thus tear down dangerous and hurtful stereotypes. Now for the actual matter of your sexuality.

 

You sound like you disapprove of flamboyant, very effiminate guys. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, personally I don't have a problem with those kinds of gay guys, and have several friends that would fit that stereotype, but I don't think that particular kind of person would be right for me either. But I won't even rule out the possiblity, I know the kinds of people I'm attracted to, but the truth is I'd be with ANYONE (of legal age) that I fell in love with (assuming neither of us were in a relationship already). My feeling is, I'm a guy, I like being a guy, I like a lot (but not all) of the traditional aspects of being a guy, and I'm comfortable picking and chosing when I want to be a traditional guy and when I want to be "the gay guy". I have no desire to give up any amount of strength, courage, or assertiveness just because I'm gay. I CAN do basic things around the house and know and understand the basics of most mechanical things, I also enjoy being physically active and playing sports (though admittedly not high contact sports because I don't like to hurt people or get hurt, but I think it's fine for people who enjoy it). I open the door for ladies and like to think of myself as a gentleman. On the other hand, I love to go shopping, I like to pamper myself with bubble baths and moisturizers etc. And I wouldn't even consider not being emotionally expressive and in touch with my feelings. There are quite a few possitive "traditional" benefits for each gender, you're actually lucky if your sexuality allows you to think outside the box and embrace the qualities of both genders that you most identify with and are comfortable experiencing. I'm not "out" for the most part (only to a few people), and I think the majority of people (except hopefully those that know me best) would be surprised, because while I talk about gender equality, for the most part I seem like a typical (straight) guy (except I don't often comment on women in a sexual way). (NOTE: I'm not out for lots of reasons, but none of them have to do with being uncomfortable with this aspect of myself. Basically I hate drama, and I hate hurting people, I'm moving soon, and it's easiest to just tell those closest to me, and leave the rest without upsetting/hurting/shocking them. If I were going to be here much longer I WOULD come out). The point is you don't want to be effiminate (fine if you are fine if your aren't IMO) or promiscous (I think not being promiscous is a good thing), well YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE. I'm not, and I seriously doubt we're the only two gay guys in the world who aren't, you don't see more people like that because quite simply they aren't as visable, but they're there.

 

About what your mother said, she explicitly said she'd love you no matter what, and if I had to guess I'd say she would. Sadly that doesn't mean she'll ACCEPT you no matter what, nor does it mean she'll UNDERSTAND you no matter, but you CAN hope that eventually she will, and you can also take solice in the fact that she'll continue to LOVE YOU NO MATTER WHAT. I dare say this could be the case for your dad and siblings too.

 

Now I'll give you the normal reasons why you shouldn't do it. People do love you, no matter what you think, they do, and they'd be very VERY hurt if you did. In fact in a screwed up kinda way, the problems you're having with your family and friends (at least the one you mentioned) are in part happening because they DO CARE, they may not be expressing it in a way that is most positive for you, but they're still feeling it, and they'd be hurt if you killed yourself. There's also an infinite number of simple pleasures out there to experience (dom's writing for example, delicous food, really good music, funny jokes, smiles, good books, good movies, fun games, new things to learn). There are lots of reasons to go on, I can't tell you the reasons that are most important to you, but I bet you can figure them out if you try. I can't fix your problems (though I promise I would if I could and WILL do anything I can to help), but you can fix your problems, and the ones you can't fix you can control how you handle them and how you feel about them. Regardless of your situation or your pain, or messed up chemical/genetic predispostions when it comes down to it, your life is YOUR LIFE, and YOU CAN be happy (again it may mean finding antidepressents that work for you, finding a form of therapy that works for you, and even drastically changing things in your current life, but you can take these steps).

 

Please PLEASE feel free to PM me anytime if you want to talk about anything. Kitty and James were right eariler when they said that with time you'd gain a different perspective, if there's one thing I'm sure about it's that emotions and feelings do, for better or worse, come and go in time. Listen to what slaveboy told you about his own struggles and how currently he's living a much happier life. And simply put remember what Nick told you YOUR LIFE IS WORTH SOMETHING

 

with all the warmth, support, and love I have to offer,

AFriendlyFace (Kevin)

Edited November 20, 2005 by AFriendlyFace

[JamesSavik]

On not fitting in- I can truthfully say I've been there.

 

Football was the only thing that I did that pleased my father. Playing football was very difficult because the players and sometimes even the coaches didn't want me there. I was a decent player and could hit pretty hard- I played linbacker. I lived in the gym and built up. The reason that the guys didn't mess with me too much is because I behaved kinda psycho and could knock most of their heads completely off.

 

Later in college, I went to a gay club. I was refused admittance because I didn't look gay. I did look like a big scary, dangerous linebacker.

 

So I've been uncomfortable in both the gay and str8 world.

 

Gay people don't really look like anything. We aren't all flaming, effeminate, shallow or sexually compulsive. These are stereotypes that people that hate us like to repeat.

[Howie]

am i the only one here who's thinking, that it's been a while since we heard anything from hi_college_guy?

[TheZot]

Well, he shows a last login time of 5:11 PM today, so he's still around...