PrivateTim

There have been too many replies and too many details to respond to each one, so here is the gist for me. I don't expect Will to say no to sex, although in 2000, a lot more young gays were willing to wait for a variety of reasons, AIDS being one, the chances to be more open about being gay and in a relationship for another and a few more factors. But I do expect some men to say no to Will and mostly due to his age because that is realistic and realism is something that Mark goes to great lengths to create. Some men might say no because Will isn't their type, but someone who found Will completely hot and still said no because of his age would add more realism, more drama and a chance to explore Will's many moods and psyche. There are gay men who would turn Will down because he is young. There is another whole element that would seek him out because he is young. At a gay club few people think about the guy you are hitting on being underage because in theory everyone is 21+ or at least 18+ in 18 and over clubs like Tiger Heat and Rage. But when I first started going out in LA, Arena was an all ages club. You'd see 13 and 14 year old boys in there. I had friends (on both sides of 18) who came away much worse for the experiences they had that started at Arena. Eventually there were enough problems that someone (LAPD? LADA?) told Arena it was a bad idea to allow under 18 people to mix with adults and alcohol and they changed the policy to 18+. Of course kids sneak in with fake ID's, but a JJ or Alistair would never get in. I agree with the comment, I think it was MJ, that without the realistic "no" to Will once in a while we descend towards Niftyism

You keep missing the point. It isn't that someone should go to jail or a trial, it is that someone should say no. It would add a whole new mind blowing dimension to Will's world that someone would have the intelligence/moral fiber to say no.

Christmas Eve is Mexican. Christmas tamales, enchiladas, carne asada, carnitas, pollo asado, rice & beans, Caesar salad and corn and flour tortillas, Noche Buena cerveza. Christmas Day is prime rib au jus with Yorkshire pudding, roast goose with apple/sage/oyster dressing, red potatoes, slivered almond green beans, sweet & sour cabbage, tomato Caprese salad, bread pudding, figgy pudding, and ice cream.

"Well he looked 18" isn't an affirmative defense.

On a different topic, why does no one over 18 (now Paulo) say no to Will, a 14 year old, when it comes to sex? I had a friend who when he was 15, only liked guys in their mid to late 20's (especially Asain, especially Japanese). Nine out ten, maybee ninteen out of twenty, would turn him down flat. Even though they knew he was gay, he knew his gay, his mother was pretty accepting of his choices and all that, they still had enough fear of the law in LA & CA that most would not go there. This friend (Esteban we will call him) was also one of the ones who was dating a guy who so in the closet that despite the fact they had been dating for close to a year, he would never introduce Esteban to his family and said flat out he never intended to. The BF was Chinese and said he'd never "shame his family" like that. Only the fact that Esteban was heading off to college broke up the relationship. The Chinese guy, a 27 or 28 year old in the financial world was one of that "one in twenty" that said yes to dating a youngster. I think he found a young guy, who was totally into him, less threatening than another 20 something and someone he could control and manipulate more.

I think there is a very fine distinction I am trying to point out in my views of Tony and as with everyone, my view of Tony is shaped by my life experience. I also understand that not everyone has the same life experiences so they are going to view Tony, the world, everything, through their own filters. But here is the distinction. There are not only two extremes, out and proud or closeted and banging chicks as cover. I had a lot of friends who were gay, knew they were gay, but couldn't or wouldn't be out for a variety of reasons. But because they were in the closest, and some for a variety of very legitimate reasons, didn't mean they had to pretend to be straight and keep their gay friends out of sight and only see them behind closed doors. They just didn't behave in such a way as to call attention to themselves. I knew I liked guys in junior high and high school, but because I was a wrestler and water polo player, two very close contact, physical sports where you inevitably come into contact with others nasty bits, being open about it wasn't an option. I did, and do, like girls/women as well (but the whole bi-sexual topic is another discussion for another day) but I never kept my gay friends, or hook-ups at an arms length and I never pretended to be so straight that I said disparaging things about gays and never avoided contact with the guys I knew, and everyone else knew, were gay. I never really struggled with who I was. Tony I see differently. He's moved a little from the self loathing of his first encounter with Will. I've known and been with guys like him. As soon as climax is achieved, some how you are at fault for corrupting the guy, he didn't want to do it, you just tricked/seduced, etc to get him into bed. He didn't really want to do it (despite the fact he practically tore you clothes off and muttered sweet nothings while still in the throes of passion). So I think Tony has moved off that stage of the closeted gay male onto stage two, the one where you acknowledge you like it, but want to do it on the down low and usually with late night encounters. When Matt and I first started dating he'd get phone calls on his cell at midnight or 1AM from his "straight" fireman, policeman or candlestick maker looking for a hook-up. We'd laugh and Matt would tell them he was off the market and they'd move on to the next number in their cell phone. That is where I see Tony for now, stuck in that stage. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but that is the lenseI view him through.

Merry Christmas Mark, thanks for the chapter. Looking forward to the Noah chapter, Tuesday with Ryan and what is next with Alistair. I like it when Will has age appropriate encounters

Well I signed in with the intent of starting a "Thank You Mister Arbour, Wherever You Are" (ala Jimmy Durante) topic, but saw this topic, so this is as good a place as any. Thank you Mark from the bottom of my heart for your tireless efforts at your craft. Your body of work is impressive by any standard and I wish a much larger audience was available to appreciate it. Have a very Merry Christmas. Hugs and kisses, Timmy

It isn't about being judgmental about Tony if he decides to be in the closet, it is being judgmental about wanting to have your cake and eat it too. If the extent of your gayness is getting it on behind closed doors with guys you find hot and then only late at night after you've gotten your straight groove on, it is wrong. It is doubly wrong with someone you know likes you a lot and is maybe hoping one day you'll come around. I've seen a lot of great guys get strung along by these kind of guys, sometimes for years and even AFTER the guy has married a woman. A couple of friends of mine in particular went through this, passing up a lot of guys they could have been happy with. In one tragic case, my friend eventually swallowed a mess of pills and whiskey to end the pain of seven years of this kind of relation. Yes, he was responsible for his own actions, but the guy who was stringing him along certainly saw all the damage he was doing and didn't care, he was all about his own pleasure. I see Tony through this jaundiced lense.

Actually I think it shows what a total wimp Robbie is. When JJ whines to him about Will being at a FAMILY party, not the Saturday friends party, it is time to start attitude adjustment with JJ and start telling him about the dark, lonely future he is setting up for himself with his diva attitude.

I really hope ANYTHING besides Tony works out for Will. More and more he is showing signs of the classic closet case, go out with the girlfriend until 11PM then head over to your FB's house to get your gay on. Even if Tony has a legit reason for not being available until 11PM, I still think he and Will are light years apart in their sexual identity maturity. Noah may not be certain where he is yet, but that would be normal for a 16 year old, less so for a college freshman, especially one with his background.

Wow, Will has a second possible age appropriate sexual enounter possible! I don't like that Robbie & Brad let JJ dictate that Will couldn't go to the Friday dinner. I kind of get the Saturday party (but not really given that they are in the same class at the same school), but Friday night is family and even though it is JJ's birthday that doesn't mean he gets to decide who is invited. What if he didn't want Brad there? Stef? More bad parenting from my way of thinking. Children need and want direction and more and more studies are showing that and more and more courts are recognizing the inability of children to made good decisions as mitigating circumstances.

The question is not is it stautorially against the law, but would a police department ever investigate it and would a DA ever prosecute it. The answer, especially with two 9th grade boys, is no. In the absence of other circumstances, acts of consensual sex in CA are rarely prosecuted. CA passed the Teenage Pregnancy Prevention Act of 1995 (oddly enough it wasn't actually passed until 1996) and that is partly where the 261.5 statues come from. They thought if they started prosecuting minors for sex that that would have a deterrant effect on teen sexual behavior (I know, they actually thought that). The reality was that when they went to prosecute violations of the above statutes, starting with the most obvious offenders, pregnant minors and their impregnators, they got huge pushback in several communities. The reality of how it stands today is that unless there is a parent screaming at the police and DA's office, there will not be an investigation, let alone a prosecution. Even if there were screaming parents, if both participants are underage, the police or ADA would point out to the screaming parents that they would need to investigate and potentially prosecuteboth, not just one of the participants and that would usually end the screaming of the parents. Can you imagine the reaction in police station or district attorney's office when a bitchy 14 year old JJ's goes to report that his younger brother is having sex with another 14 year old?

I don't get the impression that Tony is ambigious or bi-sexual. My impression is that Tony is gay, not comfortable with it and it working hard to being "normal". I don't that he is comfortable with his sexuality the same way that Gathan is. Alistair is not in pre-puberty, he is just not as developed as Will, but not far behind a lot of 14 year olds. And given that Will and Alistair are both 14 or thereabouts, how is the any legal issue?

Oh hun, iPhone is so 2011. Android has just crushed the iPhone through the first three quarters of 2012 worldwide.

Two thumbs up, five stars and a like for cute, age appropriate sex (almost Dom like even). Obviously Will and Alistair won't become boyfriends with Will off to the Bay Area and Alistair could be just a typical horned up teen and straight, but since the first day Mark introduced Alistair I've thought he was Will's ideal partner down the road someplace. A far better match than Tony ever could be. I do hope Alistair slips him the pickle before Will heads off to Menlo.

Yes it matters and this wasn't what you said in your first post. Every kid knows how to push their parents buttons, just as every spouse knows how to push their partner's. It is not doing it that leads to healthy relationships and doing it that leads to estrangement.

Have enough confidence to not care hun.

Robbie runs a production company, not a movie studio. And there is a big difference between being able to make business decisions and personal decisions, especially in Hollywood. There are a lot of emotional cripples running production companies in LA among other businesses.

I'm not going to over think this chapter, It was interesting and fun and none of the characters seemed out of character. My firm does a lot testing (psycological - Myers Briggs based) of us and a lot of feedback using 360 feedback tecniques so we know ourselves better and become more valuable to the firm. One of the things that sticks in my mind about the Myers Briggs interactions I've undergone was the epiphany about people are different, they think differently and process things differently, etc. Now that sounds basic, everyone knows that, but we don't really THINK about the implications of that; how two people can people view a situation and process it and come to wildly different conclusions. One of the reasons my firm does the MB testing with the 360 feedback follow up is so the firm can evaluate how well we understand ourselves and are we modifying our behavior for the good of the firm to get the best results for our clients. There are reasons some people become lawyers, some para-legals, some research assistants, some secretaries, etc. It is amazing when you look at MB results how similar the results are for people in the same jobs. It isn't 100%, there are lawyers who are introverts (think tax dept) and reseach analysts who are extroverts, but by and large the is a high degree of predicability about where someone will come out by their job. The other thing that sticks out is that individuals don't behave the same way all the time. Their behavior changes as related to the situation. It is critically important to understand yourself and what your natural reaction is to say stress situations for example. If your reaction, like becoming more condescending or dictatorial, or whatever, is what you do, if you know that you can moderate your behavior and prevent it because if you become condescending and dictatorial you are not likely to endear yourself to people and get the out come you want. Despite a lot of classses in psychology in college, I didn't know anything PRACTICAL about psycholgy until I started working at my present firm and actually started to USE it. I don't know if there is a certain age when you can start Myers-Briggs Type Indicator tests, but I think it is something everybody should go through as soon as possible.I think it could solve a lot of conflicts in families, workplaces, schools and churches.

I am not sure misogynistic rants are allowed or appropriate.

Sorry I signed a confidentiallity waiver

Bohemian Grove is a lot less Republican than you might imagine, it is more about the power elites of both parties in government and business. Both Stanford and Cal are well represented.

Hunh, that must have been a Delaware 2000's trend that skipped coastal CA One word in the last chapter triggered a thought in me. Surely given JP's prominence with money and Stanfurd elitism he'd be invited to Bohemian Grove. I'd love to see Brad, JP, Wade, Jeff and Will at Bohemian Grove.

Wow, Will meets someone and doesn't have sex with him the first six hours of knowing him. He must be losing his touch Thanks for the quick turn, it sure beats Monday Night Football. I do hope will manages to take things slowly with Noah if there is something there. I also hope that he remains sensitive to Noah's middle class life. Giving someone three $70 shirts, while it might seem like no big deal to Will and is meant as a gesture of apology, could also seem to someone else as someone thowing their money around and be demeaning. It is a very fine line to walk when you are rich, really rich and don't think about it because it is simply what you are used to.