PrivateTim

I hope that JJ wakes up one day and decides he doesn't need skating any more and walks away because he is bored, not because he crashes and burns because he & Alex break-up or something along the lines where he melts down. Skating has been good for JJ because it gave him some confidence and he found something he was great at, but I think he is maturing enough that he doesn't really need it anymore. Will, for someone who hates to be controlled, is certainly controlling. I hope the story goes on long enough for him to have kids who torture him. Oh and I bumped into Stef at Whole Foods last night....a 60 year old gay guy in black skinny jeans, Gucci loafers, no socks, an impecibly tailored sport coat with a modish look and an Armani shirt. Guy was trying so hard to stay "young", but not quite getting there and calling more attention to his age by dressing age inappropriate.

I am not sure how things are in the gay scene in Western Australia, but in CA and especially the LA/West Hollywood scene, where a good part of the story has taken place, there are a lot of gay boys (by way of defining "boy", in WeHo that is anyone under 30 or 35 if you in great shape and can lie especially well) looking to get taken care of. There are certain clubs in WeHo where everyone knows a 25 year old actor/waiter can go when he needs a new outfit or looks to be short in the rent. Even beyond the boys who are outright golddiggers there are the May December couples who seem happy with the arrangement and don't have a problem with the unequal power and exeperience thing, each is getting their needs fulfilled. On a side not to the arthuor Mr. Arbour, I am not sure how long this book is planned for, but we are pretty deep into it and there hasn't been a single incidence of streaking yet!

Wow, all Wade, all the time. How do I get the Will Show on this thing??

Sorry I didn't review this sooner, but you know how life is...... and you certainly deserve far more than 7 reviews for all your hard work. I may be the only person who has liked Alex the entire time (but then that may be because I didn't fall into the trap of feeling sorry for Matt just because we saw his POV). I think you are showing that these people who had him (Alex) pigeon holed into some narrow niche of a questionable disorder are seeing life and Alex are far more complicated than that. As to age differences. I have a 43 year old friend who couldn't hook up with a 20 something for anything in his early 30's, now he has to beat the 25 and under set with a club to keep them away. He can't believe (me either) how many young guys WANT the 40+ guy. My friend and I have discussed the possible reasons and we've come up with lots of reasons from loyalty, security, maturity, mentoring and more and the truth is probably combinations of those and many more, but I see this more often than not.

Really? The pizza delievery guy? How many bad porn movies and bad Nifty stories are there about the pizza delivery guy? I like how Brad learned from his experiences, that seems more realistic than stepping on his own dick again. I like Alec, but which son is left for him? JJ has Alex and Will has Zach, so unless Darius takes a walk on the wild side, Alec is SOL>

Actually the hike to the sign is pretty popular and easy to do. There are fences and a sign saying you can't actually get to the sign, but that is mostly ignored.

Very cute scene with JJ & Alex. I am not sure where it goes long term, but I think it is a good thing for JJ and I think Alex is a good person for him. Zach was a little over the top for me. Most of the athletes I know who were gay and closeted, or at least the most successful ones, were not the ones who "doth protest too much", but the ones who played along. When a guy said something like "is your boyfriend gonna suck your dick tonite", the comeback was, "sure right after he finishes with you since you've been begging him to suck yours." The flippant, 'I don't take you serious', comebacks were the most effective ones.

I wouldn't let Will off the hook that easily. It was just 10 days ago that Will was conspiring with Matt & Wade about JJ & Alex and it was Will's idea that JJ should know and it was Will's thought that Matt should be the one to approach JJ. Will has not narrated since then (it was Wade narrating in Ch. 11) so we have no idea what was in his mind other then HE STILL INTENDS TO TALK TO JJ TO INTERFERE in his life. How does Will get off criticizing Brad for getting involved with JJ's life when he intends to do the same thing? At least Brad is JJ's father and still has responsibility for him. Will then goes on to TELL Brad, "don't you dare talk to Alex." Again, who is Will, who hates to be told ANYTHING, to tell someone else what they can and can not do? Will could say, "I think talking to Alex would be a horrible idea', but who is he to tell someone else "don't you dare", when he would burn a car if someone said that to him? When you read the arrogance of Will in that Ch 11 passage, it is like HE is the one deciding who should know what and who shouldn't and that they were going to develop a "plan." How is that not the kind of inteference he hates in everyone else?

So Mark, you know I love you, but I think you've painted yourself into a literaray corner with Brad's character. It is like Peter Sellers playing Clouseau. In the first Pink Panther movie, he played the role of Clouseau brilliantly. By the last Pink Panther movie he was Peter Sellers doing an impression of Peter Sellers in the first Pink Panther movie. The funny accents became cartoonish and exaggerated. That is what Brad's character was in this chapter, cartoonish, exaggerated and a characiture of Brad. Brad is a highly intelligent, highly successful man. He has come so far from 2000. Don't take him back two years just to fill a need for tension in the story. As to Will, I am rather perplexed where he is coming from since in Chapter 11 it is the EXACT IDEA he had and he, Matt and Wade agreed that JJ needed to be "warned" and that "me (Will), Matt, Tiffany or Stef" should do it. So how is it different when Brad comes to the same conclusion?

More to the point, how will Will react when Maddie's 17 year old boy friend takes her to a wild LA nightclub and 13 year old Maddie is doing a naked pole dance?

State and local laws are very unambiguous. The reason for criminal courts is people break the laws. Appeals are never about ambiguity in the law, but are usually over procedure. Speed signs don't say "Speed Limit 45 ish", they say "Speed Limit 45". Signs outside bars don't say "No one under 21 unless you are really, really mature for your age and we all know people over 21 who are totally irresponsible, so just come on in", they say "No one under 21, we card to age 30". If laws are ambiguous, they are impossible to enforce. There have been badly written laws, but in most cases, ambiguity was not the goal. The same is true in contracts. The SAG-AFTRA Basic Agreement (contract) is 725 pages long because no one wanted ambiguity. Does it still happen? Of course, but not as much as if it had been a 3 page agreement. Life is not lived by the exceptions, but the rule. There is a reason teens are not allowed to do certain things until they attain a certain age. Are there kids who could handle the responsibility earlier, sure, are there others who should be delayed in certain privileges, of course, but that is not the basis on which you write laws and create policies. Age is not an automatic indication of wisdom, maturity or life experience, but I don't know a single 35 year old who says, "man, I made SUCH better decisions when I was 14 than I do now." I've never met a person in their 50's, 60's and 70's who doesn't marvel at how little they actually knew when they were 27, let alone 17. There is also a huge difference between a bad kid and a good kid making bad decisions. Will was a good kid who made a bad decision in taking illegal drugs on a school trip. That Will was pissed off because he took the blame for the alcohol and Brad & Rob were not interested in hearing his side was ironic and an indication of his lack of maturity. When you are misbehaving in many ways and get caught on one of them, you don't get to feel righteous indignation because you were busted on the wrong misbehavior. Could Brad & Rob have handled that better? Sure, but Will could have too, had he been the mature and 'wise for his years' teen he is presented as. Had he handled it differently, Brad & Rob might have reacted differently, but Will's behavior confirmed in their minds the correctness of the direction they were taking.

Here is the very talented Courter Simmons answer.

My son is a senior in college this year so I do know a bit about teens and parenting. On a professional level I am sometimes in the middle of family disputes, splits, custody issues and the blending of families. While parts of life are not black and white, the world I live in is and has to be. There can be no ambiguity in the law otherwise chaos ensues. Listening to a teen and getting their input is different from having your 14 year old telling you how to live your life. You listen and weigh the experience or lack thereof in what they have to say. I don't know any good parent who let's their teen do exactly what they want. I know parents who do, but they are not the good ones and the children usually do not turn out well. Can I cite Justin Bieber as exhibit #1? There was a teen who needed more parental guidance and he didn't get. Will he live to see 30 or will he manage to stay out of prison? Only time will tell. You give teens increments of responsibility and see how they perform and then add or subtract as need be. You hope by the time they head off to college that they have developed enough common sense to survive and thrive. I don't know a single parent who wouldn't have turned the screws after Will's naked dance in a gay night club at the age of 13 to reel him back in. I remember when Arena in Los Angeles was an all ages club and you'd see 13 year boys and girls in there and I wondered then (when I was 18) what kind of parents these kids had that let them mix with adults in that setting. Several underage date rape cases later Arena had to change its policies to stay open as it turns out 13 year olds were not always the best judges of character. Age is never a strict determinant, but experience comes with age which is why we have set laws on ages at which you can engage in various behaviors. Among the many people I don't know is any 35 year old who thinks he was actually smarter and more mature when he was 15 than he is now. Go figure.

Feel free to cite any scientific, scholarly or medical study on the Madonna whore complex. Should be easy if there is a tremendous amount.

Everything that Alex has done has been all about Alex? Based on what? Was going to watch JJ skate and supporting him before he knew JJ was crushing on him all about Alex? People seem to be mad at Alex because Wade hurt Matt (who people HATED for two books by the way until we saw a story from Matt's POV). Maybe Wade didn't want to be treated like a princess, but wimp that Wade is he never talked to Alex about his issues in the bedroom he merely had tried to make Alex more aggressive and tried to modify Alex's behavior during sex, which is the exact wrong time to address issues in the bed. Alex didn't get Wade's passive-aggressive behavior and was caught off guard by Wade while they were having sex. It is Wade's fault that Alex didn't understand, not Alex's. As to how he had sex with Matt. I didn't hear any complaints. What "rage" did Alex have? We never even saw the scene, we have an off-handed, one sentence from Wade about it. If that is rage, what do you call Will's actions through half the books? Alex is not a "guest" at the house in Boston, he lives there, Will was the guest. As to Alex and his attitude about Will, surely he has heard what an oversexed, aggressive slut Will is. He actually waited until Will was 16 and didn't approach him before that. Sounds admirable to me. As to how to treat guests in your home, maybe we can recall how Will treated Ethan as a guest by aggressively going after Joe, who was Ethan's guest and Will did so without a thought to maybe Ethan and Joe were an item, it was all about what Will wanted. Who presented Alex as a classy, solid, monogamous, etc anything? That was all in Wade's mind. Alex certainly didn't present himself like that? He didn't even know Wade was a love sick puppy for him initially. Any notion about Alex was based in Wade's mind, not in anything Alex said or did. And no, the "Madonna/whore complex", if it exists at all, has not changed at all. It has to do with a man's feeling about women, not men. According to Freud it is rooted in the Oedipal complex of men and shapes how they feel about and treat women. You can't have an Oedipal complex that shapes how you feel about men unless your mother was a man, which even today, is still quite impossible. The "fact" that Alex has issues that could hurt JJ? There has been no fact established and even if there was an established fact, how could it hurt JJ? Having sweet, gentle sex? Being put on a pedestal? As noted JJ is very inexperienced other than with a very aggressive man who took sex from JJ. At this point no one has any idea what JJ likes in bed so it is quite premature to say that any behavior could hurt him. So what if he and Alex don't work out for a relationship, most relationships don't and they are painful when they don't. That is how one gets experience. The concern about talking to JJ about Alex is that the person contemplating talking to JJ about Alex is the person who ruins sports cars and wardrobes when people try to talk to him about his life. Pot, kettle, stones, glass houses and all that. "Hurt characters we care about" pretty much describes Will the entire second half of Paternity and apparently it is okay to hurt characters we don't care about, which is what Will does when he sleeps with the guy from Palo Alto, knowing he is in a relationship. I know that for the 4 billionth time I will be accused of being a Will hater and for the 4 billionth and first time I will say that Will is one of my favorite characters and narrators, but I don't understand why people excuse behaviors from him that others are called to account for. It would be nice to see consistent accountability for behaviors, no matter who is performing the behavior.

If the Madonna-whore complex was first postulated by Freud and Freud's theory was that it was Oedipal it by definition makes it a "straight thing" because it is only towards women from men. It is great if you want to fall back on the "Will is just a teen" argument, but if "Will is just a teen" then he doesn't get input on the adults lives because he doesn't have the life experience to make those kinds of judgments. You can't have it both ways, but people continue to want to. As to worrying about the experience gap between JJ & Alex, 1) it is not Alex's issue if JJ gets too hung up on him and 2) no one seemed to worry about the experience gap between Will and any of his intergenerational hook-ups.

Still at a loss to figure out what it is that Alex has done wrong. He didn't ask for Wade to fall for him and he didn't treat Wade badly, quite the opposite he treated Wade with great respect and care. And since he was unaware that JJ had a crush on him his interest in JJ's skating was genuine. Some people called him a "predator" because he was aggressive with Will, but when Will all but raped the contractor on Maui people sloughed it off with, 'well it was what the contractor really wanted anyway.' The only reason Will DIDN'T respond to Alex was because JJ liked him, otherwise it would have been 'what he really wanted' and they would have done the whorizontal mambo. The trouble with the whole notion behind this 'Madonna-whore complex' theory is that it is only seen in straight men in their attitude towards women and it isn't that they treat the woman they love with care and deference and then have wild unbridled sex with bad girls it is that they are unable to perform sexually with the women they put on pedestals. No lead in the pencil. The women they do have sex with are not just bad girls, but ones that are debased. Freud, who first identified the issue, thought it had its roots in Oedipal complexes, which is one reason it is seen in straight men. As to Will. Will is being Will, which means he cares mostly about Will and thinks he knows what is best for everyone concerned. He has continued to tell people what they should do and when they should do it and now he is poised to interfere in JJ's love life, while people interfering in his makes him go ballistic, but he is The Will, so it is okay. He didn't drive to Lafayette because he loves Zach, but because he loves Will and Will wanted sex with the guy he thinks he loves, so he shows up unannounced for his needs. Next up is Waikiki. He doesn't care that getting a room in the same hotel could expose his and Zach's relationship. Will just wants what he wants. He might even want to get caught. I can't think of any other reason for him to get a room in the same hotel when he has a choice of some 70 other hotels in Waikiki that are not the De La Salle team's hotel or the hotel where his family is staying. The De La Salle hotel will be full of parents, players, DLS staff, siblings, etc. Will is sure to be seen. It might be easy to explain his presence in the hotel lobby, but less convincing on a floor in the hotel or coming off an elevator. When Will and Zach do get caught the inevitable result is that Zach will hate Will for ruining all his dreams (maybe a yellow sports car gets torched?). At the pace they are going, they are sure to be caught and it is much more likely on a trip like the Oahu trip than being caught in CA where the group is more dispersed. Whether Will's desire to get caught is conscious or unconscious I don't think he has thought through how Zach will react when Will destroys the only thing Zach truly cares about. That is when this story will get interesting and less The Waltons. Goodnight John-boy.

Or you could have gone to Berkeley, never taken a puff ever and still get high every weekend just hanging out in the dorm

Except that anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal and not an objective study or studies. And Matt, when you've lost NPR you know it is over Marijuana May Hurt Developing Teen Brain

Yes, but there is the philosophical belief, which I share with you since I am a little L libertarian and then the reality of breaking laws and getting caught doing so. That does cause problems.

Will was rude and dismissive of Jeanine long before she became ill and long before she took up her interest in JJ's career. I'd even argue that it was Will's treatment of her that both drove her to JJ and contributed to her mental condition. That Will "smokes pot no more than his dad" et al isn't a justification. He is a 15 year old. There are more dangers in marijuana for youth than there is for adults. A person wise beyond their years would make an individual decision, not be a "monkey see, monkey do" drone. You also ignore his drinking and going to 21+ clubs at 15. The sex with older guys shows how poor Will's judgment is for the danger he places them in for what is important to him (getting his rocks off). How was Will supportive of Brad when he broke into Brad's bedroom? He, at 15, decided he knew better than his father, whom his father should sleep with. How supportive of Matt has he been dating back to when we first met Matt? How much did he treat Matt like family the entire time Matt dated Wade? How supportive of JJ was he when he was sleeping his way through the Norway competition? The common thread has been that Will does what Will wants to make Will happy and anyone who gets in his way gets run over. Calling concern over Will's behavior as hate for Will is a straw man. The sect that thinks Will has this infallible moral compass and is wise beyond his years dismisses any evidence, especially textual examples, of his poor judgment and then wants to fall back on the "he is only 15" argument. Okay, fine, if he is only 15 then maybe he shouldn't dictate to his father whom he can sleep with; maybe he shouldn't decide how Zach's parents should interact with him and he shouldn't interfere in their relationships. What Zach is pursing could cause irreparable damage with his parents and force his brothers to choose sides in a family fight. I had an actor friend in high school get emancipated about 6 months before his 18th birthday because he thought his mother's rules (10PM curfew during the week, 12AM on weekends and no overnight "guests") were unreasonable. She said if he pursued emancipation they were done. He did. They are. And everyone is miserable. It has been a festering sore for 20 years and blown apart the family (parents divorced, grandparents choosing sides, the whole 9 yards). Of course the capper is that the relationship he was in that seemed oh so important, important enough to seek emancipation didn't last three months beyond emancipation. Then of course, just like his mother predicted, he foolishly blew through the large amount of money he had made in his acting career in about 3 years when it should have been enough to see him through his whole life. Point being, I've seen what can be the consequences of a teen thinking he knows best and making life choices that were not good because they were so shortsighted. I have now seen it professionally as well. I've been pretty thorough in using textual references to support what I've had to say about Matt, Will, Zach and the rest, in as much as the text exists. It isn't angst. Will is defended in all his actions by people who believe him to be Will the Wise, who is smarter than the adults around him and knows better what should be done. It is okay to have the swing from maturity to irrationality because most 15 year olds have parents or guardians to moderate their behavior and keep their behaviors from being dangerous or destructive. The difference is that Will is emancipated, which is fine when it comes to Will making decisions about himself, but when he presumes to make decisions for Brad and Matt and even Tony, who should have died two books ago, he steps into areas he doesn't have the maturity to assess the situations and areas where it is really none of his business. He would have thrown one of his tantrums (as in the previous chapters) and maybe burned someone's car.

Yes and their screen names all have "boi" and "kewl" somewhere in them even though they are no longer either

If you do, please get fat all over..... I hate those formerly skinny twinks who only have Dunlaps (my belly dun' lap over my belt) but still have narrow hips, a spoon chest, skinny legs and pencil thin arms.

I won't copy all of that to respond, but we can go back and look at the stories and the discussions of the time. Respect is a two way street. When did 13+ Will ever respect Jeannie? He blew her off and treated her like hired help because Brad let him get away with it. If Will didn't like what Jeannie said he went to Brad to countermand what she had said. That was very bad parenting by Brad and bit him in the ass because it was part of Will's "I know better" attitude or "if it displeases me, I ignore it." Of course there are clueless adults and wise teens, but there are far more wise adults and clueless teens than the other way around. No disrespect, but I am far closer to my teen years than you and remember them well. I was much smarter than Will at that age and knew far better what was good for me and what wasn't than my parents did..... or so I thought. It is only in retrospect from a more mature viewpoint did it occur to me that maybe at 15 I wasn't as smart or well informed as I thought I was. And wait.... Will didn't fall into the traps of frustrated kids such as booze and drugs? (what about the "sex" trap) We are talking about Will, who drinks like a fish, smokes weed like it is no one's business and frequents gay 21 and over clubs, right? Will of the 30 or so sexual partners at 15, half of whom were illegal for him to have sex with? If that is "as much restraint" as most of the teens you know, then I might suggest you know some pretty wild teens? Will does not worship everything JP & Stef have to say no matter how much he might love and respect them. If need be I can go back to the textual references where he blew off or was mad at Stef. JP examples are fewer, but not non-existent. There are also different kinds of respect. There is the "I respect you as a person" which is different from "I respect that you have authority for me". It is possible to not respect your parents because they are so "mean and clueless" compared to all the cool parents your friends have, but recognize that they still have the responsibility for you until you are 18 and that when they give you a midnight curfew on weekends you have to respect that authority or suffer the consequences. Will has never had to suffer consequences for his destructive behaviors.

The point is that Will is 15 at this time and is portrayed and defended as a 15 year old who is wise well beyond his years and always knows better than the adults around him what is best, not just for himself, but for others as well. And the point on this one is that most 15 year olds have parents or other adults to moderate these wild swings and reduce the damage the teen can do to themselves. Will has no such restraint on him. He might consider what a JP or Stef has to say, but he has had his moments where he blows them off as well and thinks he knows better than them. He absolutely disregards(ed) anything that Brad, Robbie or his mother might have had to say.