PrivateTim

It is always amusing in a discussion when because you won't switch your belief to the other person's view, you are the one being unreasonable. Here are the examples of "Matt the sounding board, but not influencing Zach": “He really values his relationships with his father, with JP, with Stef, with Wade, and with you. You just shit on two of those.” Dude, there are guys at Stanford that would give their left nut to do something like that with JP, and you just tossed it away like it’s no big deal.” Then you’ve got your advisor, who wants you to do this deal in Nebraska. He doesn’t care about you growing as a person; he just cares about maximizing how much exposure you get. (which is his job by the way) How is that not Matt telling Zach what he should do? It is very passive-aggressive. Despite his later, "I'm not telling you what to do", he already has. Who cares what Pete Carroll thinks? Why Zach does, because that is where Zach wants to play football, so Zach cares very much what Pete Carroll thinks. It isn't a case of not knowing about the camp, obviously he would know know about the camp. What he would not know until he started to promote Zach was that Pete Carroll, Urban Meyer, Joe Paterno el al want to see Zach Hayes at it. I am starting to get the idea you don't really understand how D1 college football works and what the recruiting process is. And of course Zach is spineless. He has dumped Will once already in Claremont, and dumped him again in a manner for the Nebraska camp. Now because Zach is with Will and his family he stands up to his parents who aren't there. How will he react the next time he falls in their sphere? Will didn't "share" with Zach, he screamed at Zach and bullied and cowed him into submission. A mature person who sees things clearly, would have sat down calmly with Zach and talked things through. Which is exactly what Will did not do. He through down a gauntlet, stormed out of the room and slammed the door behind him. I can point to all these behaviors in the text of chapter 26. Where is this clear thinking Will who shared things with Zach?

My interpretation is that Zach saw Will getting angry so he tried to shift the focus to Barry. A not uncommon defense mechanism, not a contradiction. Zach, the spineless wonder, seems to move in any direction he gets a blowing wind from. While Matt didn't tell Zach what do decide, he picked on what Matt was saying as to what was more important. It was clear that Matt thought Europe was more important so it was natural that Zach would bend the direction of that pressure. I will repeat what I said earlier, Pete Carroll couldn't give a rip about an internship with a Stanfurd professor. It is more logical that if it was a bigger than Barry realized thaten it was because Barry got that feedback after he started to promote Zach, not because he is trying to break up Zach and Will.

Several thoughts..... last things first, Zach has said pretty consistently that nothing is more important to him than football and his future in football and that includes Will and Will knows that. We can go back a few pages in the discussion where I brought up the point that that Will chafe against those priorities and it was going to cause problems (or I can go back and find the relevant texts). Next, Mark is taking some poetic/dramatic license with the camp/exhibition. The combines for high school hadn't really started by 2002. The gold standard is the National Underclassman Combine and their "Elite 100" has become crucial to athletes getting recruited and the final combine is broadcast on ESPN. There were camps of course before the NUC 100 and there were ones that were more important than others, but nothing on the scale of the NUC 100. If you can provide textual evidence of the "few contradictions" that make it clear that the camp (exhibition) wasn't important, but was just a "plot" I am willing to listen, but in reference to the scene of the blow up where Will talks about "vows" and "promises", I cited the extent of the vows and promises in post #327 and it didn't sound like a vow or promise to me, just a general understanding about the Europe trip. Again, people have to remember that Barry has been Zach's advisor less than three weeks. No one knows why or how this exhibition became important, did Barry receive a phone call from a college coach(es) where he was told to have his best prospects there? Did Barry send out information about Zach to camps and college coaches, as he would have done when he became Zach's advisor, and now invites are coming in from more camps for him? That speculation seems as valid as the speculation over the "conspiracy" between Barry and Wally & Clara. In fact, if Barry is as sharp as he has been portrayed, he would have figured out that Zach's backers, Brad Schluter et al were far more important than Zach's parents in the scheme of things.

The indignation was at all script writers like Josh Schwartz who try to write about things they nothing about; i.e. athletics, fraternity & sorority houses; coaches, cops, etc. I don't know if Josh Schwartz had even actually been in Orange County when he wrote The O.C. It was written from a typical Los Angeles County viewpoint of what Orange County was like. Having lived in several different counties in So Cal growing up I got to see what they were really like vs how they were presented.

When my grandfather was born in 1930, he was born in the French Hospital of Los Angeles and the area was Los Angeles' Little Italy and there were smatterings of the previous French community still there. Remnants from those days include Philippe the Original (restaurant where the French owner, Philippe, invented the French Dip) and Little Joe's Italian Restaurant. Little Joe's was in business for decades, but gave way to urban renewal in 2013 when they tore down the building.

I think I'll pick the LA Kings.

Hate for Simon Legree led to the Civil War, hate for Phil Connor and Durham led to the FDA, and hate for Bob Ewell led to the passage of the civil rights acts. Never sell literature short. Mr. Arbour is several notches better than Harper Lee.

Here is the HUGE PROMISE Zach broke: “I’m really sorry about Hawaii,” he said as we were getting dressed. “You’ll still make it, just a little later than me,” I said with a smile. “Just don’t fuck up Europe. That’s a big deal, especially since Grand rearranged his schedule for us.” “I explained that to Barry, so he knows the drill,” Zach said. So the huge promise was, "I explained that to Barry, he knows the drill." Barry has only been Zach's advisor 19 days. The camp would not have popped up at the last minute, but it might have been full. The elite camps limited participation to 100 players, more of a marketing ploy than an actual practical reason, but the point is, if an opening happened, it would be a coup for Zach to get into one of the Top 100 camps. And then here is the conversation with Zach in Hawaii: “You have a chance to do an internship with one of the top historians in the country,” I said through clenched teeth. “Those fucking idiots think one exhibition is worth more than that? Colleges look at more than just how well you run. They look at your brain too.” I understand the great drama of this scene, but Mark certainly knows better. No, DI football programs DON'T give a rip about your brains. Some schools like Stanfurd and Northwestern might have standards where no one below a 3.0 could ever get in, but a 3.5 student with okay SATs would get in and the hinging balance of is he in or out would not be, 'oh he went on a summer internship', it is how badly does the head football coach want him. That is the real world. If people think I am too tough on Will, how about the St. William of Menlo crowd where he can do no wrong because he is wise and mature beyond his years.

Well because when USC was built it wasn't in the 'hood. My great grandmother was a graduate of Jefferson just a few blocks away and my grandfather was born in "Chinatown" before it was Chinatown. Actually the area around USC has been on the upswing since the Rodney King riots. The university bought more land to create "buffer zones" and then influential USC alums got the city, state and feds to pour money in the area. That along with the shift of Hispanics into the area, the 'hood ain't what it used to be.

Seriously? You are not only speculating on what Brad thought later, but on how JP would have reacted and THAT would have caused Zach to be as upset over his shouting match with Will? Of course it IS Will's fault because of Will's reaction and Zach's reaction to Will's reaction. When you have 1,000 dominoes lined up and domino 999 knocks down domino 1,000, you don't blame domino 999 it is the fault of domino 1 that knocked down domino 2. Everything that has happened since Will and Zach had their shouting match is a direct result of that shouting match. It was the precipitating event in everything else that has happened. You can not speculate about why Barry did what he did, you can't speculate about what JP would have said had Will been okay with Zach going to the camp, you can't speculate about what is going through Wally and Clara's minds, you can only read what has been written and see the series of events since then. Will is NOT doing his best to help Zach have his dreams of a football career come true, Will is doing his best to spend as much time with Zach as possible. If Will was doing his best to help Zach have his dreams of a football career come true he'd have sent him to the camp with his blessing. Does anyone honestly believe that Pete Carroll would have given a fuck about a running back having been an intern for a Stanfurd professor? Carroll HATES Stanfurd as do all right thinking people. Zach doesn't need a resume builder with a professor of French history to get into a major DI football program, he needs exposure, stats and success. Zach is not to the "sports" world yet, which is professional athletics. He isn't at the college level yet, but that is what he is shooting for now and the family can have incredible pull there because they have incredible money. Any college coach would burn a scholarship for a shot at money that makes Phil Knight look like a pauper. These "kids", the football players, abuse the system as badly as it abuses them. They get into school they have no business being in, they are pampered with training tables, a full medical staff, chartered plane rides, dubious grades and if a pro offer comes, have no compunction about leaving the school. They also have no problem breaking NCAA rules and then leaving the school high and dry with no consequences to themselves while the school faces sanctions that punish the whole program for years after they leave. I was a DI athlete at a major university, albeit in a minor sport and every athlete not in the football or basketball program hated the athletes in those programs.

It is interesting that Zach was messing with Sean the way he was. Zach has to guard against being too comfortable with his gay side so that it manifests in public. I won't make any specific predictions about what is next, but button your seat belts, I think it is going to be a bumpy ride

Micromanage? We must define "micromanage" differently. Letting your 16 year old decide on his own he wants to move across the country for his junior year of high school and therefore having zero control over anything he does or even having a clue what he is doing seems like the antithesis of micromanagement. Then letting him switch schools instead of making him come home for his senior year also flies in the face of the concept of micromanagement. It shows the willingness and to what extent Wally and Clara were letting Zach make his own decisions. That is far more autonomy than any of my friends had in high school. Some kids might have been involved in the decision as to whether or not they were going to go to Harvard Westlake, Loyola or stay in the local public school, but not many and their feedback wasn't the one that carried the day. Wally and Clara haven't had any say in anything Zach has done since he left for New Jersey. You talk about kids freedom on what to do with their lives after school. Zach has had complete freedom not just after school, but well beyond that.

Fine. Being a "solid blue collar" person who values "work, respect and discipline" doesn't make you self righteous. There was a time in the not too distant past that "solid blue collar" people who valued "work, respect and discipline" were the vast majority of the American people. Elitists have been able to convince a large number of people that being a person whose views value "work, respect and discipline (and values)" are archaic and for suckers. And it matters not a whit that Brad was correct?

I think that is just a very MEAN (but accurate) way to describe Sacramento!

You make your own beds. Will has been the source of problems between the Hayes and Zach AND STILL IS. What Will did this time to piss off Wally and Clara is to react in such a way to Zach saying he had to go to the football camp as to make Zach reconsider the camp and then back out to stick with his plans for France. If Will had said, "gee sorry, JP and I will miss you in France", there wouldn't have been an issue between Zach and his parents that escalated. Whether or not you think Will had the right to be pissed off isn't the issue, it was his objections and vehemence that got Zach upset and led to the conversation with Matt and Zach's subsequent decision. If Will hadn't protested, Zach would have gone to the camp and there wouldn't have been any "disowning". So Brad's instinct was correct. I don't think being a "solid blue collar" person who values "work, respect and discipline" makes you parochial. There are lots of "solid blue collar" people and people who value "work, respect and discipline" who are extremely well educated and well traveled. They are not related items. I don't blame Wally and Clara for being rankled that people are interfering with their parental rights and obligations and enabling Zach to be defiant. I'd have kicked the crap out of anyone who messed with Tommy's and my relationship and I'd have slapped them all with restraining orders.

People have tried to get rid of "South Central LA" because of the association with the riots of the 60's and the Rodney King riots. Even though the SoLa Village is technically in South LA because it is south of the 10 Freeway, it is further north than USC is so not many would consider it South Central, more like "South Downtown" (which doesn't exist, but it is a good descriptor). If I lived in SoLA Village I'd have no problem walking to the Blue Line light rail to ride it into the financial district of Downtown. It also has the Metro Courthouse on one side and one of the best public high schools, Santee EC on the other, so it is probably a pretty good project. Not a lot of great dining nearby, but that will come as more housing gets built in the area. I am sure the folks at USC are thrilled that Downtown is building out south to them.

One of the interesting things about POVs is how a POV can shift how you feel about a character. When we see Matt in stories past from other people's POVs he can come off badly. Seeing Matt from Matt's POV he is more likeable and deeper than others have given him credit for being. He did get in to Stanfurd and graduate from it, so Matt is no one's dummy. By the same token everyone thinks Wally and Clara are these awful people because we only see them from others POV. We never get to see how they feel, why they think they are doing the right thing, how they feel about the interference with their family and kids from outsiders. Can you imagine Brad tolerating people interfering with his kids and his parental prerogatives?

I think the point remains that Will is not as important to Zach as football is. He has said as much and he has demonstrated as much.

AZ is where Californians go to remember what freedom tastes like...... I was thinking that CIT was going to be closer to WYOTech than Cal Tech.

Zach would have to come to a place where he loves Will more then he does football and he is no where near that now. It has nothing to do with savvy or fortitude, but is a case of priorities.

Here is how it is SUPPOSED to be

Well it's about time there was some major drama...... Although I am not understanding this "exhibition" thing. High school football has showcases and combines, I've never heard of an exhibition. And if it was an important combine or showcase, Barry would have already known about it. I don't remember what the state of them was in 2002, but these days getting invited to the NUC 100 is pretty significant to a high school player. It is also interesting that Wade and Matt seem closer than they have been in two or three years, but they still aren't getting back together. I think they are at a more crucial point than they realize.

Modern feminism started in the 1960's and early 70's with Betty Friedan and then led to Catherine MacKinnon, Andrea Dworkin and the rest.

I think the discussion is getting close to the now banned political forum, but this was not a hate crime. It was very clearly a mental health issue and no one wants to start talking about mental health issues because no one likes the answers about forced commitment and forced medication. This also clearly not a crime against women. That he couldn't get laid by women was merely the fixation of his mental illness. Did no one notice that he murdered more Asian men than he did women? Or that male victims outnumbered female victims 2 to 1? College students getting drunk and having sex isn't new. This aggressive language of tarring men as predators for "getting women drunk and raping them" is ridiculous. The incidents of women actually raped while they were passed out or unable to consent are quite few, but the modern feminist interpretation of any impairment on the part of the woman constitutes a rape case against the man is absurd. The focus of the Santa Barbara shootings should not shift off mental health issues, which is where it lies.

Thanks for the chapter Mark, I don't know how you do it. I can barely squeeze out time to write a proper review, let alone a full chapter. I am hoping the action swings to Hawaii soon, Chicago is boring me Who the hell wants to be in ChiTown in summer?? I think one thing that is lost on so many of the readers is how young Matt and Wade are. Brad is too for that matter. When I was a grad school student I thought I was pretty grown up, but when I look back from the wrong side of 30 I understand how young I was still at 28. I suspect when I am on the wrong side of 50 I will look back at how young I was still at 39, and so on through life. My grandfather at 84 talks about what a kid he was at 70.