Procyon

Yeah totally, and the thing is, often people don't realise that it affects men too, adversely, because the 'male standard' has higher status and thus men should be happy with their assigned role. But that just makes it even more difficult for men to be different or more 'female'. But just like women most men are raised to think they genuinely desire to be the way they're 'supposed' to be. It's a hard topic to discuss too because only (or mainly) those of us who have chosen to go against the standard actually realise that it's coming from the outside and not from ourselves. And of course, if you're happy with the role you have there's no reason to do anything about it... or is there? I've met young girls (age 14 to 17 or so... maybe up to 19?) who were convinced that it was their deepest desire to remove all their body hair, and that they would be disgusting if they didn't, but other than that I don't think I've met a woman who didn't shave for only social (and possibly aesthetic) reasons. I mention aesthetic because hairy legs really don't look good with certain types of dresses; of couse one might argue that that is a social standard too, in essence.

In some countries, you'll find women arguing that female genital mutilation makes them feel 'cleaner' (this is sometimes the case with women who move from, say, Somalia to Europe -- all their lives they've been told that they are 'clean' and look nice down there because they've been mutilated, and then they come to the west and their gynaecologist gasps in horror at the sight of their genitals.) But to themselves and other women from the same background they do look 'clean'. Of course, not all of them share this view, and I don't know how common it is anyway. But it does happen, and it's not unusual either -- there is a reason why they can keep on doing it, and it's certainly not only the men's fault, the women promote it just as much (if not more) than the men. And in some societies women actively help men with so-called honour killings and genuinely believe they're doing the right thing. This is nothing that is 'natural' or intrinsic in women. Also, in the seventies there were a lot of women who didn't shave their legs, and shaving your armpits hadn't really been invented yet. So how is it natural for their daughters to feel 'clean' when they shave off their body hair? I think it's the media and trends in society in many, many cases. Both men and women have a lot of things forced on them by society and choose to embrace some of these and make them their own, and then they may think certain things make them feel cleanor good. Of course I'm not saying it's all imagination. It's a bit like getting your ears pierced or choosing between long or short hair. At some stage you decide that you like something and then it makes you feel good, and then you begin to like it even more. I can get some sort of good feeling from removing my body hair because society says I'll look beautiful when I do, but if there'd be a preference for hairy women in the media I'm sure I'd never even get the idea that shaving my legs might make me look good. Yeah, physical attraction definitely matters, denying that will only get you into trouble. The problem is that it's so hard to find people who are both physically attractive and to whom you can connect, a lot of the time it's either or. But if your significant other doesn't turn you on at least a little bit, it's not likely that your relationship will last...

I feel flattered that it was to a topic I'd started (only my second one) and one that seemed like it'd get only 'shallow' responses at that. But you managed to give this a bit of a deeper dimension. Haha I'll tell you if we ever get around to doing it. It is a bit tempting, but I wouldn't do it on my own since, like you, I wouldn't want that much attention. (Btw yes, I'll take pictures.) Our tastes do change, and not only when it comes to body hair or food, but... loads of things. Harhar. And to a certain extent one is influenced by the values of society -- there's a lot of places and contexts where it is regarded as the 'right thing' to get rid of one's body hair. And maybe you care less about such things as you get older. Then again, I think some people care more about what other people think as they get older... so yeah. *gasp* Are you saying there's something wrong with bearded ladies?? Yeah, those are all great things in a guy. And 'rugged' isn't a plus for me either, nor am I overly fond of stubble or massive forests of body hair. My post was semi-joking; partly I wanted to see if there was no one out there who also liked body hair on men (as I do, in reasonable quantities) and partly I wanted to challenge the waxing mafia. It's interesting, talking of sensitive and refined guys, that there seems to be a much greater scope of variation for women in this respect. It's okay for women to be rather male in their ways, but for guys it's much harder if they've stereotypically female character traits (I imagine). At least I guess it must be in certain situations, at school for example. Oh dang, it'll never be you and me then. Anyway, fair enough that you want hairless women, since you want your men hairless as well. I can accept that; but I have a hard time accepting when people think women should be smooth as babies while they think men can have as much hair as they want. I don't think you'd 'go off' someone simply because he got old, you'd get used to it just as you get used to yourself getting older. And again, one's taste does change over time, though i have to say that I don't like wrinkles any better now than I did when I was 20, and I don't think I will anytime soon. Harhar. But -- hey, there's plastic surgery! J/K, how awful, most of the time it only makes you look worse. I think, though, that you get more tolerant when it comes to physical appearance as you get older, and it's not only because you become more desperate. You just realise that it doesn't matter as much. Maybe it's some sort of defence mechanism, or maybe it's the beginnings of what people call wisdom? Dun dun dun. Who knows. I realise that I am rambling. Maybe it makes some sort of sense though, so I'll still post this. Have fun shaving, all of you!

Yeah it's hard to tell when you haven't read the article, of course. It might have been a really good one, and stating how many people you've had sex with definitely isn't wrong as such. And -- do most guys really want to have slept with 60 people (girls or boys) by age 20? I don't get that impression, I have to say, although I guess that they wouldn't tell a woman. But still, most men I know don't come across that way at all. Or do you mean they'd just like to be able to say it, not actually have done it? I didn't get that impression either, but what do I know... maybe guys are just great at hiding that side of themselves.

You're raising a lot of different issues here. I agree that people who keep pointing out how 'un-gay' they are aren't doing the gay community a lot of good, and not themselves either, really. Most 'gay' traits are actually something positive, so denying them isn't really a good thing and says more about the person who feels the need to do so than about the gay community in general. Saying 'I'm gay but I don't like... [insert gay icon of choice]', or listing 'gay' traits that one doesn't have, only gives people a negative image of the person in question since they're defining themselves by saying what they're not. But there is a reason that people feel the need to assert that they aren't 'like that', ie, like (some of) the gay stereotypes. For instance, I think gay people might be marginally more prone to wanting to sleep around than straight males and females (though actually, now that I write this, I doubt that there's even a marginal difference) so the image of gay people as being irresponsibly promiscuous is totally unfounded and really doesn't do the gay community a lot of good. In fact, it's doing it a lot of harm -- it makes gays seem superficial, irresponsible, and childish, and that is to those of us who didn't grow up with strict religious values. So I think it's only natural to want to correct that misconception, and there's no harm in doing it either. Of course gays want to sleep around, but it's not a specifically gay thing, it's the same with everyone. And yes, I do think that kind of thing affects the way straight people view gays. The whole waving-around-dildos thing does not promote understanding of the gay community, and now I'm talking about those straight people who are willing to listen -- the idea that gays focus much more on sex than straight people 'otherises' gays to 'ordinary' straight people who don't actually want to be prejudiced, and maybe that doesn't matter so much in general, but when these straight people are suddenly faced with a close friend who turns out to be gay, or the fact that their child is gay, it makes the process of accepting that much harder -- harder for both, not just the straight person, since there's suddenly all these obstacles (misconceptions) in the way. It's like some wall of non-understanding that's suddenly come between the two persons, out of the blue. But that doesn't mean that one columnist shouldn't be allowed to state that he's been sleeping around -- that would border on censorship. The thing about columnists is that they base their writing on personal views and experiences, and this was himself he was talking about, which is perfectly fine. At the same time, though, I think it was pretty childish of this person to have to mention numbers -- he could have said the same thing without bragging about how he managed to sleep with 60 people, that was a bit pathetic. But since it was a school paper I guess he was at the height of puberty and his bragging hormones peaking as he wrote. I guess the most important thing, though, is trying to understand and make people understand, not correcting misconceptions. But still, misconceptions can be a rather big obstacle sometimes, especially if you don't have anyone who can help you understand...

Yeah I'll say!! Shocking, this is. A man's not a man without body hair -- and I thought most of you people fancied men, not girls? Actually it's unhygienic to shave (wax, etc) it all off, possibly with some rare exceptions -- for women too, of course, not just for men. Btw does anybody here have an opinion on women's body hair? I didn't limit this thread to male body hair, nor to people's fanciableness, don't you have an opinion on body hair in general? Should women always shave their armpits?? Should men do that (no, *not* only your future lovers, but men in general?)

I don't agree at all. Of course, if you're just telling someone they're wrong it's never going to work, but you can teach tolerance in other ways. Showing people examples is one way, and another way is trying to help them understand people different to themselves. It's not easy and sometimes it doesn't work, but even if only 10% of those you're trying to 'teach' tolerance actually get it, it's still a vast improvement. And even if they just learn a little tolerance, it's still better than nothing. Of course you cant force them -- that is usually the way of intolerant people, they want to force others to become like themselves. They think that is a good idea. But some people do become more sensitive if you try to make them understand whatever otherness it is they can't grasp. It's so easy to be xenophobic, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Okay I'm not gay, but ABBA, Madonna, and Jamie Oliver...

Yeah, I'd read about that too, and let me tell you, I'd really need that extra hour right now, every day. It'd make such a big difference. Another alternative would be a ten-day week, with five days of work and five days off. We suggested that to our boss at work a while back, and even made up names for the extra days of the week ('Lokiday' for the first weekday instead of Monday, which could be part of the weekend), but sadly it hasn't come about...

Okay that test is very interesting; I am in the middle of it right now, but it's very very hard to answer some of the questions.... I'll give a few examples: 'You like to keep a check on how things are progressing' -- well, yes, if I'm cooking I like to check when the spuds are done, or else they'll turn into pulp and be disgusting. But with some other things, I like to do my thing and then leave it behind and not ponder on it. It completely depends on what it is, some things are interesting to keep track of, others I want to forget ASAP. 'You are more inclined to experiment than to follow familiar approaches' -- again, depends on what it is. If it's cooking, I do experiment, but not if it's something very difficult that I've only tried doing a few times. Although okay, maybe I experiment then too, a little... but yeah it's a matter of circumstances and degree of familiarity. 'You take pleasure in putting things in order' -- haha... hahaha. Well, yes. But my house is a complete mess, and that is partly because I *want* things to be in complete order when I am done cleaning -- that fact means that I never have time to do it all, it takes too long, so I can only do the basics anyway. So yes, I like putting things in order, but I rarely get around to doing it, and often i find other things more urgent. So, those are just a few examples of how difficult it is to answer that stuff. But it's a good test because it's making me reflect on how I function -- some, or maybe a lot of it I already knew, but I think it's still good to think about it once more. As for knowing oneself in general, I'm not afraid of what I'll find (and I don't terribly dislike anything I've found.) But teh good thing is that one can actually work on changing some of one's less agreeable traits, such as impatience, jealousy, etc., if one is aware of them and feels that it'd be a good idea for oneself and those around one. And when one succeeds with something like that, in little steps, it's a great feeling, at least it makes me happier when I've got less negative feelings. Of course, sometimes it doesn't work at all... :wacko:

Of course, you can tell from her eyebrows. But does she dye her body hair?? And an additional question: should men be hairy but women not hairy? Or vice versa, or both of them hairy? Or neither?

For me I think the phenomenon of loving someone is so big that you can't put it into words -- I love my son so much that it hurts sometimes, and saying 'I love you' to him is just such an understatement that it's meaningless anyway. Love is so basic and yet so complicated (just look at the love between parents and children...) and so powerful. I'm not saying it's meaningless in general though; if you're used to it and maybe put a bit of a different meaning into it it can be very nice to say it and hear it. But it has to be at the right moment (esp. in a romantic relationship) and in the right context.

I was discussing this with some friends and we decided that we'd dye the hair on our legs blue or green some day and go to the beach. Okay that'll probably never happen, but it's interesting that so many people seem to think body hair is revolting and unhygienic (which, of course, it isn't.) How do you like body hair on yourself and others?

Thanks! I've really been enjoying interacting with you too (and now I'll be the last one to have posted on this thread again for *ages*! lol, I was glad that my name wasn't there anymore, but I can't just not reply to your post... )

Smokers don't lose mental function during chainsmoking, they lose it before chainsmoking, that's why they're doing it in the first place. And while doing so, they're horrible to be with, carcinogenic, stinking, etc. Lol yeah those are the reasons that one is more wary of drinking than smoking -- an ex-classmate of mine fell off a roof and died while drunk, so of course it's dangerous -- it's bad enough when you wake up the next mornign and have no idea what you've done or said. Harhar... But it's also kind of ...good, to be drunk, though as you say you need the right company, on one's own it's just pathetic. I used to get drunk fairly frequently when I was at the uni, but now I don't care for the hangovers anymore... So I just let myself get nicely tipsy, which can be bad enough the day after. Wine is good with food, and beer is good to get tipsy on when you go out. Czech, Austrian, or Irish beer, preferably. Anyway in vino veritas, sometimes; I'd say your ex-lover deserved your talking shite.

Yes it was terribly sad...

I don't *think* I ever heard anyone say that to a young child... Of course it might still happen, but it's definitely unusual. If it does happen. Does nobody else here live in a country where people don't keep saying 'I love you' all the time? When I hear it on American TV it doesn't ring true at all, but I guess that's due to bad acting. How often do you people say it anyway, usually? Maybe not as often as it seems.

I envy you... How exciting! How are you getting around, bus only? You didn't get an interrail pass or something? I know they're only valid for a month though, so I guess that isn't ideal for you. Where are you going next?

In this case (in Iran) they'd have been executed if there were any kind of proof that they'd had (gay) sex. So I guess they wanted to stay together really badly... the guy who'd had gender reassignment looked really beautiful (as a woman) but also really sad. It's a pity I can't find the article. Wow, what a Crying Game situation... I can't imagine what that would be like, but I'd feel betrayed I think. Interesting though. Wow, I'd never heard of somebody's sexual orientation changing because of gender reassignment. But then I don't know anybody who's had it that close -- the ones I do know of stayed the same though, if they fancied guys they went on doing that and vice versa.

I don't tell my family and good friends that I love them, I know that they know that anyway, and I can't recall ever having heard anyone say they love someone except on (American) TV. It's probably a cultural thing; in many European countries we don't say it at all, except possibly lovey-dovey couples. I did hear it from two of my boyfriends, and on both occasions I had to avoid saying it back since I didn't love them. I don't not say it because I find it hard to say, but because those around me would think I was drunk or something if I suddenly began saying it for no obvious reason. Harhar. They certainly wouldn't appreciate it or anything, so it'd be no use anyway if I said it.

Crayfish.

If it were someone i didn't really love, I would probably be perplexed and ask if he was sure he was doing the right thing, and then eventually I'd try to be as supportive as I could -- but it's not likely that I'd stay with that person. If it were someone I felt that I loved, I'd be devastated at first, and probably try to persuade him not to do it, because I think one loves a person's body as well as his or her soul (and personality), and this would be such a drastic change that I'd have a very hard time accepting it in general -- and within the relationship, I don't think I'd be able to accept it at all; I think it would have to end. Of course it would also depend on how long we'd been together. But that raises an interesting question about the couple I mentioned at first: did the guy whose wife became a man suddenly turn gay? Not likely. Was he bisexual from the start? Hmm maybe. Or did he decide to stay with his husband although he's not gay...? And if so, was that a good decision?

The boy-meets-boy scenario is about as likely to go stale as the crime novel or romance in general -- and those never go stale, although there's ups and downs in every genre, as some here have said. As for having to think of new scenarios, that is not true either; it's all about how you write it. A new scenario is easier for sure, but even Shakespeare used old scenarios -- and he made them absolutely great. And people do it now, too, though some fail spectacularly. There's all sorts. Haha are you feeling left out? You could do something about it, or encourage others to. A story challenge might be the thing (maybe there's loads already though... 'middle-aged, bitter guy is saved from trying to drown himself by hot life-guard'... 'old, lonely, decrepit guy who's only had sex with prostitutes begins to play chess in the streets, meets cynical opponent from some obscure middle-eastern country, possibly a terrorist, hates him, then loves him') There is one problem though, possibly, and that is the tiny number of reviews one tends to get. People seem to read stories but not review -- on the top ten most reviewed stories list (in e-fiction), number one has 48 (!!!) reviews only, and there are several that have only got around 30. That isn't too encouraging for a chapter story.

I, too, am neither, but both would be exciting I'm sure. I know being pregnant is, anyway, depending on who the father is, a bit. Well, possibly rather a lot. But hmm, being bi -- then I'd have twice as many people to fall unhappily in love with... x___x Dunno about that. :wacko: