593 Riverside Drive - 21. Chapter 21

Wednesday, May 13, 1925, 10:15 AM

Cross-examination of Mrs. Ella Spingarn by Mr. Benno Lewinson continues

Mr. Lewinson: Do I understand you to say that on your honeymoon when you arrived at the Taft Hotel and retired with your husband that he did or did not make an attempt to have sexual intercourse with you?

Ella: We didn’t try. We lay in bed, comfortably holding each other, and joked about it and kissed, but we both admitted that we were too tired.

And that night was, therefore, passed with each one of you under separate and independent control, is that right? That is, neither attempted intercourse with the other. Is that correct?

Yes.

Now, do you recollect any of the events of the second night, as to circumstances? Do you recall whether your husband made any effort on the second night to have sexual intercourse with you?

Again, we didn’t try. This time I wondered why, because we were rested, but I wasn’t ready to ask Joe. So again, we just lay comfortably in bed.

Now, neither on the occasion at the Taft, nor on the second day, you never requested him to have intercourse with you, did you?

No.

And on the third night, did your husband make any effort to have sexual intercourse with you?

In a way. This time we were lying next to each other under the covers, but without our clothes. And there was considerable exploring and laughter, but we never reached the moment when we were truly aroused.

Then you and Mr. Spingarn did not have intercourse.

No. That waited until the next evening.

Now, we will take this in sequence. The first night after you left the Taft Hotel was any effort made by either of you to have sexual intercourse?

No.

Was there any effort made by either of you on the next succeeding night to have sexual intercourse?

No. I just told you that it was on the fourth night that we tried.

So it was four days after your marriage that you recall an effort on the part of your husband to have sexual intercourse with you. Is that right?

Yes.

What did this effort consist of? Did he have a partial erection or a complete erection?

He had a partial erection, as he did the previous evening. That’s one of the reasons we were giggling – his only casual interest. He called it “mature” and joked, “Well, I’m not a young man anymore.” And I joked, “And you didn’t marry a young girl.”

Did he have a complete erection which, however, did not continue after penetration? Is that what he had?

No. It was never more than a partial erection.

But he penetrated, did he not?

No. He didn’t really try.

He entered into your person, did he not?

No.

He did not enter into your person?

He only explored with his fingers – and very gently.

But after he had what you call this partial erection and then entered into your person, he ejaculated, did he not?

No.

Do you know what I mean by “ejaculation?”

Yes.

I mean that there was emitted from him what we call “semen,” and that it was emitted into your person, was it not?

No.

Wasn’t there some moisture in you after he had penetrated you? There was, was there not?

Again, he didn’t penetrate, but there was moisture. But I don’t know whether...

Did you say that he penetrated you?

No.

This moisture – you’re saying you don’t know whether it was semen. Is that is because you don’t understand the use of the term “semen?” Is that right?

I understand it.

There is a sort of liquid moisture which is semen.

Yes.

And you felt a liquid moisture after this penetration, did you not?

There was no penetration – not even partial. But there was moisture.

How long was this act that we will call “coitus?” How long did that last – about? A couple of minutes or more?

It was nearer to seconds.

How long is that?

It didn’t last at all.

That is, it seemed very brief to you – very short to you?

As I said, it barely began.

In other words, you felt the semen, or this liquid moisture as we will call it, before you had any corresponding moisture that was the result of your response. Is that correct?

I don’t know.

You don’t know what I mean?

I don’t know exactly what I felt.

Do you understand the word “orgasm?”

Yes.

An orgasm would be the nervous response, or feeling, that a woman ordinarily gets, or sometimes gets, as the result of the finality of the act of intercourse. Now, did you have any such sensation on your part?

No.

You did not. Did you have it later than he did?

No. And Joe never had any reaction.

Did you have it at all that evening?

No.

Are you sure?

Yes.

And did you ask him later to repeat?

There was nothing to repeat. Unfortunately, he hadn’t begun.

You did or did not?

I did not.

Did you say anything at all?

I knew that something was wrong, and I cried.

Mr. Steuer: I moved to strike that out.

Judge Crain: I will leave in the words, “I cried.”

Mr. Lewinson: Did you say anything to him?

Ella: I finally asked if something was wrong.

Mr. Lewinson: Answer me whether or not you did or did not say anything to him? If after this act took place, as you have described it, did you make any comment or statement to him, or did you keep silent, other than crying, as you said?

I asked Joe what the trouble was. I knew there must be a problem because he was clearly interested, and I thought it might be me – my lack of experience.

You asked your husband what was the trouble?

Yes.

And did you tell him that you did not have any sensation?

No.

You did not tell him that?

No – because I did have – as you call it – sensation. Just as Joe had interest.

And how soon after he withdrew did you ask him what was the trouble?

Mr. Steuer: I object to that as it assumes that Mr. Spingarn was ever in the position to withdraw.

Judge Crain: Objection sustained.

Mr. Lewinson: How soon after you felt this liquid moisture on your person was it that you asked your husband what was the trouble?

Mr. Steuer: I object to that. Mrs. Spingarn has not testified that any liquid moisture she felt was definitely semen.

Judge Crain to Ella: Did you say that you felt liquid moisture?

Ella: Yes – and I wanted to explain that I didn’t know whether it was Joe’s or my own.

Judge Crain: Understood. Mr. Lewinson, you may continue.

Mr. Lewinson to Ella: Well, at all events, whether it was yours or your husband’s, how soon after this feeling did you say anything?

Ella: After Joe couldn’t even begin to have intercourse with me. I knew something must be wrong, and it was a natural instinct to ask.

In other words, this was after he made – according to you – an attempt to have sexual intercourse. Is that so?

Yes, and he couldn’t begin.

And how much time had passed – between what you call the attempt and the use by you of the words, “What is the matter?”

Maybe an hour. I wasn’t considering time.

And this was the fourth day after your marriage and the first day of his first attempt?

Our attempt. Yes.

Then you asked him this question sometime other than the first night of your marriage, did you not?

Yes. I didn’t know before.

Were there any further attempts after the fourth night? That is were there any further attempts made during your honeymoon trip?

Yes. After all, we were on our honeymoon.

Now, what is your recollection of the next effort that was made to have sexual intercourse with you?

It was the next night.

You recall exactly?

Yes. After our first try, we tried almost every night.

Can you recall the other occasions when intercourse was attempted before your honeymoon terminated at Asbury Park?

Not specifically.

Do you remember how many of those occasions there were?

Not exactly.

Would you say that there were a dozen?

Yes. We were on our trip for three weeks.

At least a dozen times after leaving the Taft Hotel at New Haven?

Yes.

Did you have any sexual relations at all?

No.

You did not have any sexual relations at all with your husband?

Not in the way that you describe. I can only say that every night we lay comfortably in bed together, and many nights we tried to have intercourse during those three weeks.

In those so-called attempted relations, Mr. Spingarn had an erection, did he not?

At most, a partial one.

And he penetrated your body – entered into you – did he not?

Unfortunately, never – except with his fingers.

Do you mean to say that he did not enter into your vagina at all?

No.

No portion of him?

Only his fingers.

I am talking about his body. Do you mean to say that he did not penetrate your body in part at least with anything besides his fingers? You don’t mean to say that, do you?

His erection wasn’t hard enough. And it didn’t last very long.

That is, you don’t think it was hard enough to be maintained after he had entered your body?

He never entered.

Do you positively say that it did not penetrate?

Yes.

By that you mean it did not penetrate far enough?

Joe couldn’t penetrate at all.

Do you mean to say that your hymen was not ruptured?

Oh, it was ruptured.

And his organ ruptured it. Is that not so?

No. Again, he often used his fingers.

But when he had a partial erection, as you describe them, you also felt that there was this liquid moisture. Did you not say that?

Yes.

And that was after he had entered into your body, was it not?

Again, I don’t know whether the moisture was his or mine, but his penis never entered my body.

In other words, you felt moisture, but whether it was his ejaculation or your response, you don’t know. Is that what you want to say?

It’s what I did say.

When you got back to Asbury Park, after your honeymoon had practically finished, did you have sexual relations there, up to the time that you finally came back to New York?

We tried.

Do you recall whether your husband did or not succeed?

He only tried.

How many times were there relations, such as they were, between you and him during the time you were at Asbury Park and after you had come home from your honeymoon?

Possibly three times every week.

No more often than that?

We didn’t have the privacy. It’s a summer house, and the bedrooms are smaller and close together. And the walls are thin.

Without going into the details, was the situation in each instance just as you have described in the answers you have given me to the other questions on that subject? That is, were your relations at Asbury Park substantially the same as those that you have already described as having taken place on your honeymoon?

Yes. Unfortunately.

Earlier, you said something of your husband’s talking of going to a doctor. How soon was this after you married?

About a month.

I want you to search your recollection so that you can give me the very best memory you have on the subject,

I believe the first time we talked about it was during our honeymoon trip, because I’d asked Joe about it.

I merely want to know when was the first time – to the very best of your recollection – that the subject matter of an examination by a doctor was brought up.

Possibly during the second week we were married.

That was on your honeymoon?

Yes.

And did the reference apply to both of you seeing a doctor?

No. Only to Joe.

Now, did he say that in response to whatever suggestion you made that he see a doctor?

No. It was his suggestion. He said he was going to.

Did he ever tell you afterwards that he had seen one?

Yes.

When? Think it over.

Immediately after his appointment. That evening – in the privacy of our bedroom.

Isn’t it a fact, Mrs. Spingarn, that the only time your husband saw a doctor on this subject at all was after certain charges had
been made in a conference held in the office of your lawyer, Mr. Max Steuer, on or about the 25th day of October, 1924, when it was agreed in the conference that you and your husband were respectively to be examined by a doctor?

No. October 25th was before I even left our apartment and months before I engaged Mr. Steuer.

It is not true?

It’s not.

It was not as a result of this conference that you subjected yourself to an examination by Dr. Nammack?

No.

He was not suggested by your husband’s family lawyer, and an examination by Dr. Casamajor was suggested by your own?

No. Joe suggested that I see his family doctor, Dr. Nammack. Later, my family doctor, David Felberbaum, suggested that I see Dr. Casamajor.

And this was in October sometime?

The suggestions were. My examinations didn’t begin until the first of the year.

Why did they not?

To be honest, Joe and I didn’t really know what we were doing yet.

But you say Dr. Nammack had already made prior examinations of you, had he not?

Of Joe – yes. He never examined me.

So the only mention in October was in respect to a future examination of both you and Mr. Spingarn. Is that not so?

Yes.

Do you recall when it was that the first examination was made?

Again, it was in January.

And it was followed by a variety of examinations of both you and Mr. Spingarn by several different doctors. Is that correct?

Partially. During the winter, I was examined by several doctors. But Joe kept putting them off.

Now, in these examinations made by Dr. Felberbaum and Dr. Nammack – and later by Dr. Casamajor, Dr. Gregory, and Dr. Goldstein – you reported to them what you stated to be the situation sexually and what you felt, is that right?

Yes.

And you told them everything, I suppose?

Yes.

And substantially the same thing was done by Mr. Spingarn, is that right?

Joe – finally – only saw his family doctor, Dr. Nammack, and my own, David Felberbaum, and I don’t know specifically what was said. By then, I’d left our apartment and we didn’t speak as often.

And only the final examination of you by Dr. Gregory, on the 23rd of February, 1925, was put in typewriting, and a copy of it sent to you and your lawyer, and another copy of it sent to Mr. Spingarn, and to me as his lawyer. Is that correct?

Again, partially. I’m not sure when Joe engaged you, and February 23rd seems sooner than I chose Mr. Steuer.

Now, you came back from Asbury Park after your first honeymoon, in October, 1922, was it not?

Yes.

How long had you been back before sexual relations of any kind were commenced between you and your husband – how long had you been in New York from Asbury Park?

Joe came to my bed the first night. We were celebrating our arrival in our new home.

Then sexual relations resumed within a week after your return. Is that right?

They were attempted.

Have you any definite recollection of any time when you first had sexual relations with your husband in your New York home?

I only remember that we tried very often.

When you say “tried,” have you any definite recollection of the date of the first attempt, so-called?

Joe’s lease on the Asbury Park house ran through September, and the owners nicely let us extend that for two more weeks while work was being finished on our New York apartment. So we would have moved to the city on or about Saturday, October 14th, 1922.

And that night Mr. Spingarn had sexual relations with you?

We tried.

And this was in your bedroom?

Yes. The one Joe and I shared.

Do you independently recollect the circumstances of that first time?

Only that it ended as our attempts usually did – with Joe comfortably falling asleep against me and my finally moving to his bed so I could try to sleep.

Then you had twin beds, not a large double bed, in your bedroom?

Yes.

Was there a reason for this? Was it your choice?

No. Again, Joe preferred the extra room.

And he entered into your bed, not you into his?

That was our usual.

Now, do you remember whether it occurred in the morning, the afternoon, or at night?

It was always late evening.

That is the best general recollection you have on the subject?

Yes.

He had an erection, did he not?

A very partial one.

An erection that was sufficiently rigid at least to get inside you. That is true, is it not?

It’s not. I could only feel the tip of his penis.

And you also felt again this warm moisture, or a liquid, did you not?

Yes, but I didn’t know whether it was his or mine.

You don’t know whether it was his or yours?

No. As I’ve said before.

Have you any definite recollection as to how long it was after this first time that you next had sexual intercourse with him? Was it that week, or the following week, or don’t you know?

I’m sure our next attempt was on the following night or two. In the beginning, Joe was a very determined lover.

Well, on this next occasion, whenever it was, without going into the details, were the circumstances substantially of the character that you have described in relation to the first?

Yes – and to all the others. Joe was ardent, but finally unsuccessful.

Judge Crain: Unfortunately, I need to interrupt here. Court is recessed until this afternoon at 2:00 o’clock, and we will continue then.