593 Riverside Drive - 17. Chapter 17

Cross examination by Mr. Lewinson.

Tuesday, May 12, 1925, 2:00 PM.

Lewinson: You had known Mr. Spingarn's family for about how long prior to the time of your marriage with him?

Ella: I knew Joe since I was a little girl. His first wife, Anna, was my second cousin – my grandmother’s niece.

And you knew him then during the time that he was married to his first wife?

Yes.

And I believe, Mrs. Spingarn had lived for about fifteen years after that marriage?

Yes

You knew that they had five children?

I knew of two.

But you knew that the two were surviving, and there had been three that died?

I didn’t know that.

You knew then that there had been more than two children?

I knew Anna had difficulty carrying a child.

How many children had you known besides the two you have definitely recalled?

I only know Laurie and Laurette.

How many have you known of, as distinct from personally meeting them?

I never heard of other children.

You never heard?

Yes.

In other words, you never heard that there had been five children altogether, three of whom had died?

No.

How many did you understand that there were?

I only understood that Anna had difficulties.

Without knowing definitely the number?

Yes.

At the time, you were living at home with your parents?

Yes.

And at the time of Mrs. Spingarn's death, you were still living at home with your parents?

Yes.

And during the five years intermediately after the death of Mrs. Spingarn and before your marriage with Mr. Spingarn, you were still living at home with your parents?

Yes.

And the household consisted of your father and mother?

And my youngest brother. I have three brothers and three sisters.

So as far as the immediate household was concerned, it was your mother, father, and a brother in addition to yourself.

Yes.

And there were no servants kept?

No.

And you did all the housework, did you not?

No.

Then who, if anybody, assisted you in doing the housework?

We had servants come in.

How often would you have the servant come in?

Three or four times a week.

And what would that servant do that came in three or four times a week?

The cleaning and taking care of the house.

By that you mean doing the cleaning of the windows and things of that kind?

No. Doing general housework.

Did she come as frequently as three times a week?

Sometimes more.

Do you recall who the servant was?

It wasn’t one particular servant. They were day workers.

In other words, you hired at intervals during the week a day worker?

Yes.

In the meantime, you did the work when that servant was not there?

I helped.

Whom did you help?

My mother.

How old was your mother?

My mother is presently seventy-two, and this was almost three years ago.

Then practically all of the housecleaning that was carried on was carried on by your mother, yourself, and at intervals by the servants or day workers that would come in three or four times a week. Is that correct?

That is correct.

And you resided where?

At 610 Riverside Drive.

Were you residing there at the time of your marriage?

Yes.

You had known Mr. Spingarn's father before that – your husband's father?

Yes. Ira. My father-in-law.

And he was a gentleman at the time of your marriage about eighty-eight years of age?

He was eighty-six. He’s currently eighty-eight.

And he was of the household of Mr. Spingarn?

No. Ira had his own home nearby – his longtime family house.

Then Mr. Spingarn's household consisted of him, his son, and his daughter?

Yes – when Laurette was with Joe on holidays. But she spent nearly all her time at boarding school or summer camp.

And how long had you known the daughter?

I’ve known Laurette since she was a little girl.

And she is a young lady of about twenty now?

Yes.

How long had you known the boy?

I’ve known Laurie since he was born, but I’d only seen him occasionally. Joe and his family lived in New Jersey, and my family lives in New York.

And the boy is about eight years old?

Laurie’s going to be eight. His birthday’s in August.

His mother died about ten days after his birth, or a very short time. Is that not so?

From what I’ve been told. Yes.

The courtship between you and Mr. Spingarn was carried on where, more particularly and prior to your marriage – at Asbury Park?

Yes.

And you were a guest of Mr. Spingarn's household there?

No.

Who were you living with?

I was at the Belmar Hotel with my sister, Lee, and her daughter, Ethel.

That is Mrs. Hirschler?

Yes. Lee’s husband, Arthur, would normally come from the city on Friday evenings and stay through Monday mornings. And he spent two or three weeks with us mid-summer.

And did you see Mr. Spingarn frequently there in Asbury Park?

The summer that we met again – yes. Quite frequently.

So the events that finally led up to your marriage took place mainly at Asbury Park, in the form of courtship. Is that right?

Yes.

And you were married on the 23rd of August, 1922?

Yes.

You stated that you went off on your honeymoon to Maine. Is that right?

Yes, but our trip didn’t only include Maine. We also saw other parts of New England and Canada.

And who did you see in Canada? Any friends of yours or Mr. Spingarn?

Joe had some relatives in Toronto.

Do you recall their names?

Mr. and Mrs. Vogler.

And who else did you see there, either friends or kin of Mr. Spingarn?

Mr. and Mrs. Singer.

Were those all the friends that you met in Canada?

I had a friend in Toronto, but she wasn’t there. But we did see her husband, Mr. Nussbaum.

How long did you remain in Canada?

I think four days. But I need to confirm that in my appointment book.

Have you brought it with you?

Yes. I have 1921 through 1925. You said they’d be needed as evidence but that I could keep them with me.

[Mr. Lewinson to the court] I’d like these entered as evidence.

Judge Crain: Accepted.

[Mr. Lewinson to Ella] How long were you in Canada?

We spent four nights and parts of five days in Toronto.

How long did you remain in Maine?

We traveled from place to place through New England, before and after our visit to Canada. Three weeks in all.

And among other places, did you visit Bar Harbor?

Yes. We dined with you and your wife there.

How long did you remain at Bar Harbor?

Three days, which included two nights.

Was the honeymoon you took a motoring honeymoon?

Yes.

And on your return, did you see the daughter at any camp?

Yes, we stopped at Laurette’s camp – Camp Walden.

Where was that camp?

In Denmark, Maine.

And you spent the day with her?

Yes.

More than one day or just one day?

Again, we stayed overnight, after arriving late Saturday afternoon. We took Laurette out for dinner that evening and mainly saw her on Sunday. We left after taking her back to camp after an early Sunday dinner. Then we drove the short distance to Portland before dark.

And you left her in camp there? Is that correct?

Yes, Joe and I came home alone.

You were married in New York City?

Yes.

And immediately after your marriage, are you aware, or were you aware, that a will was executed by your husband?

Yes.

Did you see the will?

Yes.

Then you knew substantially the provisions that applied to you, did you not?

Yes. Joe also told me. .

When did you leave New York on your honeymoon?

On August 23rd – the same day we were married.

By motor?

Yes.

And where did your motor to that day?

Our first stop was at the Norwalk Inn for a light supper. We were married at City Hall that morning, then Lee and Arthur held a reception for us in their apartment. After we left the city in late afternoon, we weren’t hungry, but by the time we reached Norwalk, all of us – Joe and I as well as Ray, our driver – needed to use an inn’s facilities. So not to be impolite, we ordered a small meal.

You just stopped for dinner then?

Yes.

And where was your first stop overnight?

That was at Taft’s Hotel, in New Haven.

It was at New Haven?

Yes.

So New Haven was where you spent your first night?

Yes.

What time did you arrive there? About?

It was after the dinner hour but not yet dark. We wouldn’t be so foolish as to drive at night on those roads.

Then you and your husband retired?

Not yet. It was still relatively early, and I’d never seen New Haven. So we went for a walk.

And about what time did you retire?

About 11 o'clock.

When you arrived at the Taft Hotel in New Haven, did you have with you in your bag or in your trunk or valise or whatever receptacle there was, did you have with you a douche bag, and did you have an antiseptic like Lysol to put in the water?