593 Riverside Drive - 31. Chapter 31

Friday, May 15th, 1925, 2:00 PM.

Catherine Conway, a witness called on behalf of Mrs. Ella Spingarn, being first duly sworn, testified as follows.

Direct examination by Mr. Steuer:

Mr. Steuer: Miss Conway, where do you live?

Catherine: In New York City and Asbury Park.

And do you know Mr. and Mrs. Spingarn?

Yes. I’ve worked for them for almost three years.

What do you do?

I cook.

Do you work throughout the year?

I have Mondays and Tuesdays to myself and most evenings after dinner. That’s usually served at 7:00.

What, if anything, did you notice about Mrs. Spingarn, as to the way she behaved?

Well, I noticed Mrs. Spingarn used to be quiet at times. I’m most often in the kitchen. Some days, I’ll shop for Rosa – that’s our housekeeper, Mrs. Ehlbeck. But mostly, I’m in the kitchen. Still, Mrs. Spingarn comes in every day to decide the menus, and sometimes, she just likes to cook and bake.

Are those when she seems to be quiet?

Yes – not exactly blue, but not as talkative as she sometimes can be. I don’t know how often it’s happened – but several times.

Do you mean several times a year or a month or a week?

Just at different times. I don’t count them or mark them down on my calendar. But I’ve often noticed them.

When you say “often” you probably know what you mean. But could you give the court a more specific idea?

Well, maybe two or three times a month, she’d just be quieter than usual. It wouldn’t last very long, and most times, she seemed to be all right the rest of the time.

Would you describe this “quiet” as being “nervous?”

I don’t know.

Do you ever use the word “nervous” in speaking of people?

Yes.

Could you describe how Mrs. Spingarn was – other than being occasionally “quiet?”

Well, when I say I’m nervous – or if somebody else is – I mean kind of shaky about something – or scared.

And did Mrs. Spingarn ever seem like that? Or did she tell you she was?

No, she was just quiet. Friendly and smiling the way she normally is, though it’s not like we ever tell each other about our family lives. We talk about Laurie, and how he’s growing up – and how he’s doing so well with his schoolwork. And I know she has her difficulties with Laurette and old Mr. Spingarn – but we all do, and I’m lucky they mainly stay out of the kitchen. Still, I like my job, and one of the first things you learn when you’re working in somebody else’s home is what they say is the rules.

Have you worked for other families?

Yes.

In the same capacity or in other jobs?

Well, I had to learn what I do. At the start, I was just helping Rosa when the older Mrs. Spingarn was ill. She used to help Mrs. Spingarn that way.

How long have you worked out, Miss Conway?

Almost seven years.

Do you mind telling how old you are?

Twenty-three.

So you started young?

Just a year. School didn’t interest me much, so I skipped ahead. I wanted to earn my keep to help my parents.

Would you say that during the time you’ve worked for Mr. and Mrs. Spingarn that you’ve generally been happy?

Very happy.

Has the family also seemed happy?

Mainly – yes.

And you began before Mrs. Yetta Spingarn passed?

Yes. This was my first long job.

As you look back over these years, is there anything in particular that stands out in regard to Mrs. Ella Spingarn? Or was one day about like any other one?

They were all pretty much the same – except when one of the children or Mrs. Spingarn was sick with the grippe. Then she told us all to stay downstairs, and Rosa or Mrs. Hirschler – that’s Mrs. Spingarn’s sister – would bring up their meals on trays – if they wanted to eat at all. Mrs. Spingarn didn’t want the rest of us getting sick.

You are speaking about the apartment, I take it. Not the house in Asbury Park.

No – that doesn’t have an upstairs, and no one ever gets sick in the summer. That’s why we all go to the country.

And she never told you that she was going to lie down because she had a headache?

I don’t know about that – but then she wouldn’t tell me because it wasn’t my concern. But I might’ve seen her go upstairs, or into her bedroom at the lake, to rest. Or I might’ve heard her asking Rosa or one of the other girls for an aspirin.

In other places where you worked, would some of the ladies come into the kitchen?

Some would, and others wouldn’t.

And would some be more friendly?

You can be friendly without coming into to the kitchen, but I know what you mean. Again, some would, and Mrs. Spingarn is one of the friendly ones. As I said, she likes to cook and bake, and she likes to be around people. And we were always happy to see her.

Who’s “we?”

Rosa, Cathie, Katie, and me. And sometimes Ray, if he was driving in the city.

Thank you. [To Judge Crain] I have no further questions.

Judge Crain: Mr. Lewinson?

Mr. Lewinson: I have no questions, your Honor.

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Catherine Maloney, called as a witness on behalf of the plaintiff, Mrs. Ella Spingarn, being first duly sworn, testified as follows.

Direct examination by Mr. Steuer.

Mr. Steuer: Do you know Mr. and Mrs. Joseph Spingarn?

Cathie: Yes, I do. I’m employed by them.

What do you do?

I’m responsible for general housekeeping in all but the bedrooms and upstairs baths, and I serve dinner if the family is in for the evening – sometimes luncheon, too, if Mrs. Spingarn is having guests. Sometimes, I’ve even served breakfast – if they had a special guest who stayed the night.

Could you tell us where you live?

With the family in New York City and Asbury Park. I see my own family on Mondays.

How long have you worked for the Spingarns?

Just over two-and-a-half years – from when they moved to Central Park West – in fact, they were still choosing furniture, and carpets, and drapes.

Would you mind telling the court what, if anything, you observed that was out of the usual during that time? If you didn’t see anything at all, please tell us that.

Well, I wouldn’t say this if I didn’t just promise to tell the truth, but they sure spoil old Mr. Spingarn and their daughter Laurette.

Thank you, but I was specifically speaking about Mrs. Spingarn.

Oh – I beg you a pardon. I wouldn’t’ve said that if I’d known.

Judge Crain: That’s fine, Miss Maloney. Thank you for your honesty. Now, if you could again answer Mr. Steuer.

Cathie to Mr. Steuer: Out of the ordinary in what respects?

Mr. Steuer: Well, you saw Mrs. Spingarn every day. Were there some days when she seemed different than usual?

Yes – there were times when I noticed she wasn’t feeling well.

Do you mean when she was ill with the grippe?

No – then we were all fetchy. This was times when she – for an example – when she asked to have her meal in bed.

Was that breakfast?

Yes – maybe two or three times.

And lunch?

Oh – never. She was always up and dressed by then and most days out of the house. Or in the summer, she’d be down at the lake, or by the ocean, or off playing golf.

But several times a year, she asked to have her breakfast in bed?

Not several times every year. Once or twice in all the years I’d worked for her.

When you took in her breakfast, did you notice anything else about her?

No. I just set down the tray on a table Rosa set up, and then I left.

Was the room dark?

Not that I remember – and she was already sitting up. One time, I remember her saying, “I’m being wicked. I shouldn’t be doing this. And I even let Katie take Laurie to school.”

So she wasn’t especially quiet?

No – it was more like she was playing hooky – except we both knew she was too old for that. I also used to notice that she would sometimes call her mother or sister when she was still upstairs, instead of coming down to the breakfast table. But I always thought she was being private – maybe even planning a surprise.

Is there anything else you can tell me about Mrs. Spingarn?

Nothing more than that – except that she’s really nice, and we all miss her, and wish she’d soon come home.

I’m sure she appreciates that. Now did you ever see Mrs. Spingarn cry?

Yes – yes, I did.

Could you tell the court about that?

Well, I saw it happen several times.

When was the first?

As to the days, I couldn’t remember. But it was in the morning.

Was it one of the mornings when she stayed in bed?

No, she was already dressed both times.

So there were only two?

That I remember clearly.

What can you tell us about them?

Well, the two days were close together, and they were when one of her aunts passed. Or one of her great-aunts – I can’t remember, but it was someone really old. And I guess Mrs. Spingarn had been very close to this aunt, and they saw each other very often. And I guess her aunt hadn’t been ill or anything, so this was all of a sudden. Well, Mrs Spingarn would be talking with mother – or with her sister – and suddenly she’d begin to cry. They all would.

Thank you. That wasn’t quite what I was thinking.

Oh, I beg your pardon – again.

It wasn’t your fault. I didn’t make myself clear.

I do that all the time – it’s something I’m trying to fix.

Do you know what’s meant by a person being “nervous?”

Oh, yes – we all do.

And is there anything you can tell us about Mrs. Spingarn being nervous?

No – I’ve never seen her being nervous – not the way I get when I have to do something important or something I’ve never done before.

I see.

Judge Crain: Perhaps we should determine what Miss Maloney’s ideas of nervousness is.

Mr. Stueur: [To Judge Crain] Thank you. [To Miss Maloney] Could you answer the judge’s question?

Well... suppose you told me someone was nervous – and I told
you back, “I don’t know what you mean.” Well, if you didn’t explain, I’d figure that she was really irritated.

Thank you, and you’re right – I need to explain myself better.

Well, the only times I ever saw Mrs. Spingarn irritated was about old Mr. Spingarn or Laurette – and you said we’re not talking about them.

No, we’re not.

I thought so.

Now, have you’ve worked with other families?

Yes, I have. I’ve been working since I was fourteen years old.

And do you mind my asking how old you are now?

Almost twenty-one – everyone in my family thinks I should be home and married.

And have you ever worked for anyone who had spells? Or moods? Or seemed generally unhappy?

No, I can’t remember anything like that. I wouldn’t like it and think I’d give my notice.

Now by “nervous,” I mean did Mrs. Spingarn find fault with you, or the way you were doing your job? Or did she tell you too often how to do your work?

No, Mrs. Spingarn is always very kind to me. And when I’m trying to learn to explain things better, I’m trying to be more like her. Because she sets such a good example.

So you’ve never seen her nervous or especially quiet?

I only remember the days she played hooky and when she cried when her aunt passed. Again, I beg your pardon.

There’s no need for that. You’ve done very well. Sometimes, we can learn from things that aren’t there, and you’ve pointed that out. Thank you. [To Judge Crain] That will be all.

Judge Crain: Mr. Lewinson?

Mr. Lewinson: No thank you, your Honor. Mr. Steuer’s questions have served me equally well. [To Cathie] You’ve done just fine. Thank you.

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Katherine Gruss, called as a witness on behalf of the plaintiff, Mrs. Ella Spingarn, being first duly sworn, testified as follows.

Direct examination by Mr. Steuer.

Mr. Steuer: Are you currently in the employ of either Mr. or Mr. and Mrs. Spingarn?

Katie: Yes. I have worked for them since the 1st of August, 1922.

That was before Mr. and Mrs. Spingarn were married?

Yes – it was because they had plans to be married. Mrs. Spingarn wanted someone to help Rosa – Mrs. Ehlbeck – while they were on their honeymoon trip.

How were you employed then?

To supervise the child who had just celebrated his fifth birthday and to help with the housework and cooking.

Did your work take to Asbury Park with the family?

I was there three times. First, I began in Asbury Park, in 1922. Then we moved to New York City, and then I was at the shore again the next two summers.

Could you tell us who the Spingarn family consisted of?

Mr. and Mrs. Spingarn. Their children, Laurie and Laurette. And the old gentleman, Mr. Spingarn.

Did you have occasion to, or did you see Mr. and Mrs. Spingarn together during the time from when you were first working for them in Asbury Park?

Yes, certainly.

Did you see them every day?

Almost – on the days when I was not off or they were not traveling.

And when did you work?

During the week and Saturday mornings. I sometimes even shared a room with Laurie – when he was ill or when he needed special attention.

Did you notice when Mr. Spingarn came home how Mrs. Spingarn was accustomed to greeting him?

Yes – Mrs. Spingarn used to say, “Katie, is that my darling coming?”

And would you see her greet Mr. Spingarn when he came in?

All I saw was that Mrs. Spingarn went downstairs, and that Mr. Spingarn walked into the hall, and she kissed him. But, of course, I did not see that – I looked away.

Was the greeting you described a daily form of greeting?

Not every day, but I saw it a lot of times – in both New York City and Asbury Park.

What else did you observe about the way they treated each other?

Well, he was very lovely, I should say, because I saw Mrs. Spingarn sitting very close to him on the parlor sofa. I saw that many, many times.

Did she ever speak of Mr. Spingarn to you? Did she tell you what she thought about him?

That I cannot say because we did not have that kind of talk.

Now during the time that you’ve been with them, has there been any particular change in the way they greeted each other or in the way they were with each other?

I think the greeting was always the same. They were all the time the same with each other as far as I can remember.

How long have you been in this country?

Almost two years and ten months. I came from Germany to work for the Spingarn family. My family worked for cousins of theirs in Bremen.

Do you mind if I ask your age?

I will soon be twenty – in September.

Now, were you present in the house on the day that Mrs. Spingarn left?

Yes, I was. It was during the week.

About what time of day was it?

Late in the afternoon, perhaps about five o’clock. Laurie was already home from school, and Ray had already come and left.

Who is Ray?

Ray was our chauffeur – he is our chauffeur. But he and Mr. Spingarn argued that morning, and Ray was dismissed. Then after Mr. Spingarn found out what happened with Mrs. Spingarn, he hired Ray again. Ray said Mr. Spingarn apologized but also admitted they were both wrong.

It must have been a very confusing day.

It was not a good one.

Who else was in the house besides you when Mrs. Spingarn left?

Almost everyone – Rosa, Cathie, and me. Catherine had her day off.

And of the family?

Laurette was out, but that is often so. Old Mr. Spingarn was sleeping in his room, but that was also true before dinner. I was playing a card game with Laurie in his bedroom when Mrs. Spingarn came in to say she was going out.

Did she say when she planned to be back?

No – but there was no reason she would have or that I would have asked. We all knew dinner was at 7:00 o’clock.

Did she say anything special to Laurie?

No. She kissed him on the head, but she always does that.

Did she take anything with her?

That I did not see – I stayed with Laurie. But afterwards, Rosa said Mrs. Spingarn just walked out.

So you don’t know if she took any money or her jewelry?

Her jewelry was almost always in the bank – except for the times when Mr. Spingarn wanted her to wear something special. But she always wore her wedding ring and a thin gold chain around her neck. It was a short chain with tiny pink pearls, but she had a different name for them.

Coral?

Yes – that was it. She said she designed it herself from some beads passed on from her grandmother, and she had it from before she was married.

And no one else saw her take anything?

No – they said she just went down in the elevator.

Had Mr. and Mrs. Spingarn breakfasted together that morning?

Yes – they almost always do, and they get up very early. Then Ray drives Mr. Spingarn to Jersey City, and Mrs. Spingarn and I help Laurie get washed and dressed for school – and we make sure he eats all his breakfast. Then one of us walks with him to school. At first, we both did, but he’s seven now and says he’s not a baby.

Did you notice anything missing after Mrs. Spingarn had left?

No – nothing. And I have reason to go into her bedroom – to clean. So I would know.

This was the bedroom she and Mr. Spingarn shared?

Yes – Laurie, Laurette, and old Mr. Spingarn each have their own bedrooms. Cathie and I share. Rosa and Catherine share. And Ray shares with several other chauffeurs – they are always changing. This is in New York, and we are all almost on the roof in the servants’ rooms.

Where did you sleep in Asbury Park?

There is a second house on the alley – I guess it was a stables before, and now it is a garage. There are two rooms on the top floor, and a toilet and a sink, and Ray has a very narrow bed – a cot? – in the hallway. Sometimes, when it is very hot, he even sleeps on the dock.

You’re very observant.

When I am interested, I always have my eyes open.

Were you interested in Mrs. Spingarn?

Yes – she was very nice to me, and sometimes, we even tried to talk in German. But I had to teach her so much she said that she forgot.

Thank you. [To Judge Crain] I have no further questions.

Judge Crain: And Mr. Lewison?

Mr. Lewison: Yes, actually. [To Katie] Do you know what nervousness is – being nervous?

Katie: Yes – I do.

Did Mrs. Spingarn seem to be nervous before she left?

I do not think I have ever seen her nervous – except, sometimes, if she is in a hurry. Is that what you call nervous?

Sometimes. On the day she left, did she seem to be in a hurry?

No – she went out of Laurie’s room just like she was going downstairs to the parlor.

Did you ever see Mrs. Spingarn cry?

Yes.

Many times?

Only two, but she cried many times on these two days – her favorite great-aunt had passed. Mrs. Spingarn said she was very old, and her passing was not a surprise. But they visited each other very often. This was about a year-and-a-half ago.

And you never saw her cry on other days?

Never.

Was this in New York or in Asbury Park?

In New York – she was downstairs with her mother and sister. Mrs. Goldberg and Mrs. Hirschler.

Do you know what it means to be blue – to feel blue?

Do you mean to feel sick?

You’ve never felt blue yourself?

I really do not know what that means. I have heard people say they feel blue on Monday, but I think that has to do with the washing. And that is all I know about feeling blue.

Judge Crain to Mr. Lewinson: Say “unhappy,” and she may understand.

Katie to Mr. Lewinson: You are asking if I ever saw Mrs. Spingarn unhappy?

Mr. Lewinson. Yes. [To Judge Crain] Thank you.

Katie: I cannot say because I did not ask anything so private. When I was in the house, it was my duty to see, but when they said about things that I did not dare ask about, I did not ask questions. That is not my way.

No. I’m sure that your way is that when you saw they were feeling bad, you went about your business.

It is the best way.

Yes... Do you know what “down-hearted” is?

I do not know how they use that expression in this country.

It’s another kind of “blue” or “unhappy.” Can you remember ever seeing Mrs. Spingarn that way?

Well – one time – I did ask her what was the matter. But New York is such a different way, and all she said was, “Oh, Katie.” That was all. What she meant by it I do not know.

All she said was, “Oh, Katie?”

Yes – but Mrs. Spingarn was not feeling well that day. And by dinner, she was ill with the grippe.

And that’s the only time you saw her that way?

Yes – but I did not see her often. In the morning, when we getting Laurie ready for school, and later, after one of us walked with him back home. Then we would praise his schoolwork and play a card game – often Snake Eyes – his favorite.

So that was really not much of Mrs. Spingarn?

Maybe for an hour each time, but more in the afternoon. Also, I would sit at the family table through dinner – to remind Laurie of his manners without interrupting the others. I also saw her more in the country because it is a small house compared to the one in New York.

What do you do when you’re not with Laurie?

I also clean. I do the bedrooms and, in New York, the upstairs bathrooms.

Do you ever use any kind of disinfectant or cleanser for the wash basins or bathtub or toilets?

Yes. Sani-Flush for the toilets and Dutch Cleanser for the others.

Did you ever use Lysol for anything?

No – I never heard of it in the house.

Did you ever see Mrs. Spingarn remain in bed during the day?

Only the time when she had the grippe. I stayed home the first day, but it was really my evening off. But I knew she was not feeling well.

That was thoughtful of you.

It is that kind of family. They are all very kind people.

Thank you. [To Judge Crain] That is all.

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Mrs. Rosa Ehlbeck, called as a witness on behalf of the plaintiff, Mrs. Ella Spingarn, being first duly sworn, testified as follows.

Direct examination by Mr. Steuer.

Mr. Steuer: When did you begin in the employ of Mr. Spingarn?

Rosa: I think I began to work for the older Mr. Spingarn – Ira – and his wife, Yetta, when I was still in school. I was maybe twelve.

Twelve? Really?

Yes, we finished schooling at fourteen in those days, after our eighth year, so I started helping Yetta when she’d need me.

What did you do?

At first, I just helped her clean, as I helped my mother. But I got nickle each time instead of the job expecting to be done. I lived around the corner from Yetta and Ira and used to go door-to-door looking for odd jobs. My sisters taught me to do that, while my brothers cut grass, and raked and burned leaves, and shoveled snow in the winter.

And you’ve stayed in the Spingarns’ employ throughout your life?

Well, by the time I was seventeen, I was working most days a week – not all the time, but I was helping. Cooking, cleaning, washing, baking, sometimes taking care of Yetta’s children. When I got married and had my own, I was away at times, but as soon as they were a couple of months old, I brought them to Yetta’s and we raised them all together.

How many children did the Mr. and Mrs. Spingarn have?

Five. Those are the ones who lived.

And you?

Fortunately, all of mine were healthy, but there are only three of them. Now, Walter and I have great-grandchildren, too.

How did you come to work for the younger Mr. Spingarn?

Well, it began when Anna passed. The two houses are only two streets apart, so I helped Yetta and then walked down to see what Joe’s house needed – cleaning and linen and such. The baby was already with Yetta and me, Laurette had been sent off to school, and Joe was eating his dinner at night with his mother and father. In the summer, they’d all go to one house at the shore, taking Laurette and the baby, and I’d mainly stay with my own family.

When did you start to work for only Joseph Spingarn?

I never really have – Ira’s still the one who pays me. He’s promised me a pension, but I’m not ready.

And you all live in one house now? Two, if you include the one at the lake?

Actually, we’ve all lived in one house – Joe’s, in Jersey City – since soon after Yetta passed. Ira said there was no sense in him living alone. So we put his house up for rent – mostly furnished – and Ira moved in with Joe. Laurette still had her bedroom for when she was home, and in the summer, she has a bedroom at the lake, and Laurie shares one with Ira. Before, that was Yetta and Ira’s room, and Laurie shared one with his sister. Of course, he was just a baby then.

Did everything stay the same when the family moved to New York?

This has been a time. I can no longer walk to work – or even take a streetcar – and I no longer work as often. Ray brings me in on Mondays, after he takes Joe to work, and then takes me home on Thursday afternoons, before he goes for Joe. And Ella and the girls take care of the days when I’m not there. Of course, with Ella there, I’m not really needed.

You seem to be comfortable calling your employers by their Christian names.

As Yetta always said, “We’re a family,” and you can’t tell where her children let off and mine begin. Of course, the girls don’t call Ella and Joe that. They have more respect.

Who are the girls?

Catherine, Cathie, and Katie – our cook, maid, and the girl who looks after Laurie. Now, she’s helping with Ira, too, especially when I can’t.

Were they all hired in New York?

No – Catherine came to us in Jersey City – before Yetta passed, but when she was doing poorly. But she stays in New York from Wednesday till Sunday nights. Then Ella and I make the meals, and Cathie serves them. She’s off on Mondays and half of Tuesdays.

And they all stay in the servants’ rooms?

Yes – Catherine with me, Cathie with Katie, and Ray in a sort of barracks with some of the other chauffeurs. But he really only sleeps there because all he has is a bed and a chest and a couple of hooks on the wall. When he spends a lot of time in the city, he’s usually in our kitchen. At the lake, he has more time free – a lot of it – but he’s fine so long as he’s there when Joe needs him. Still, most of the summer, Ella and Joe drive themselves, and it’s only the small car. Ray only has to get the big one when we have guests, and Ella and Joe take them dancing or out to dinner.

Has Mrs. Spingarn’s absence changed the family?

Well, of course. Laurie misses her whenever he’s home, and the rest of us need her, too. We’ve all come to depend on her, and Cathie and Katie have never known different.

And Mr. Spingarn and his daughter?

Joe’s quieter than I’ve seen him since Anna passed. But he’s always been busy with work, so he distracts himself with that. Some evenings, when Ella was still with us and the two of them didn’t have plans, Joe and Ray would sit with their account books at the breakfast table, and that happens more often now.

Mr. Spingarn doesn’t make evening plans alone?

He almost never did – Anna and Ella took care of that. And we were in Jersey City, so he only went out for Anna’s sake and for family.

Then Ella Spingarn has improved his life?

Well, I’m not sure Joe would admit that, because there are evenings when he’d rather stay at home. But, yes, despite the occasional strain I sometimes see from Ella, the two of them seem very happy.

Can you tell us about the strain?

Sometimes, she just seems tired. Other times, she’ll do something like stare at a mixing bowl and then tell me, “Oh, Rosa, I’ve done it again. I can’t remember if I’ve measured out the baking soda or baking powder.” So we’ll have to play detective and sift through the layers for clues. But that can be a game, and it always makes Catherine laugh.

Do you think Mrs. Spingarn will come back?

Now that’s the answer we’ve all been waiting to hear. She’s there every day for Laurie – but two or three hours isn’t the same as knowing she’s home or will be soon. And she knows that, and knows what we’re all hoping for.

She’s become that important?

Can you doubt it?

Thank you. [To Judge Crain] That will be all, your Honor.

Judge Crain: Mr. Lewinson?

Mr. Lewinson: Once more, I have no questions. [To Rosa] Thank you.

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Mr. Raymond Ruhle, called as a witness on behalf of the plaintiff, Mrs. Ella Spingarn, being first duly sworn, testified as follows.

Direct examination by Mr. Steuer.

Mr. Steuer: Are you presently in the employ of Mr. Joseph Spingarn?

Ray. Yes.

But you were recently dismissed?

And then rehired the following morning – with an apology, though I was probably as wrong as Joe was.

Can you remember when you first began to work for Mr. Spingarn?

Oh, I was probably seven.

Were you really that young?

Well, I didn’t work for him all the time. I used to go ‘round our neighborhood, looking for jobs people’d pay me for, but mostly I ended up shining shoes. Almost no man likes shining his shoes.

Do you still shine Mr. Spingarn’s?

Yeah, but he pays me more.

But that’s how you started out? Working for Mr. Spingarn and the other men?

Always more for Joe – soon every day. He likes his shoes very shiny.

When did you start working in his stores?

I’ve been sitting here, trying answer that because I knew you’d ask. But really, I can’t remember – it just happened. One day, I was buffing his shoes and then I was sweeping his floors, and beating the carpet runners, and putting out the rubbish. It’s like I’ve always worked for Joe, and my father sometimes jokes that I’m really Joe’s kid.

A success, and you’re only nineteen.

Don’t rub it in.

Could you tell us what the argument was – the one that got you discharged?

I’d rather not, but we don’t seem to be allowed secrets here.

Make it as brief as you’d like.

Well, I told Joe he was making Mrs. Spingarn work too hard – taking care of his father and Laurette. That it was more than she should handle on top of bringing up Laurie and running the house – two houses.

Was there anything more?

No – and it seems he already knew that, but didn’t know what to do about it. So he just went back to work.

Why were you concerned?

Just because I’d gotten to know Mrs. Spingarn from driving her all the time. And it’s not like she talked privately to me, but a guy just sees things.

Then what happened?

Joe got really mad and told me happened in his family was none of my goddamned business, and if I didn’t like it, I could get the hell out of there.

Does he often get angry?

Not like that. In fact, I’d never seen him that way.

What did you do?

Shut my mouth – but it was too late. He next words fired me, and I almost thought he’d order me to the side of the road and tell me to get out. Instead, he said he’d take the train home that night and for me to clear out of my room – that he never wanted to see me again.

That must have been hard.

I didn’t know what to do. I just went home to my parents’ house. The next day Cathie told me that Mrs. Spingarn left that same afternoon, but by then, Joe had come to my parents’ house, apologized, and given me back my jobs. So I knew something was happening that had nothing to do with me.

Did Mr. Spingarn ever talk to you about his wife?

No – why would he?

Did he ever talk to you about being a man?

It would embarrass me. He knows I like girls – if that’s what you’re getting at. I like Cathie and Katie, though they’re older than I am, and I’d go for Laurette if she wasn’t so rich and so spoiled.

Did Mr. Spingarn ever talk with you about money?

Just to say that I’d have some someday – but first, I had to save it to get a start. So I shouldn’t waste it all as fast as it comes in.

That sounds like good advice.

Yeah – he’s much better at telling people stuff than at yelling. He’s always trying to help someone.

Then he’s a good employer?

I’d do anything for Joe. Anything.

Thank you. [To Judge Crain] That will be all.

Judge Crain: Mr. Lewinson?

Mr. Lewinson: Again, I have no questions.

Judge Crain: For any of this afternoon’s witnesses?

Mr. Lewinson: None.

Judge Crain: Then if there are no objections, we’ll recess until Monday morning, May 18th, 1925, at 10:15 o’clock.