Very thorough review of a lovely film. Only like to add that James Wilby and Rupert Graves are great actors and nice to look at, too.

I loved this movie. There's not much to add to what's been said about it, but suffice to say I enjoyed both the plot and the characters immensely.

As it happens, I love historical settings. Not because I find such deeply class based societies attractive—I often find myself thinking, man, do queers, women and people of colour have it way better now!—but because I'm a student of history, and I find that placing interesting characters in historical settings makes it easier to understand the era than simply reading about the history itself. So, period dramas, sign me up. Gay period dramas, fuck yeah! Even better.

Edited to add: I think you should watch and review Velvet Goldmine. It would be interesting to see what you'd have to say about it.

W_L, you talk about "the British", but in fact you're talking about "the English".

And you talk about the class system - in England - in disparaging terms, and quite rightly. But you seriously believe there is no class system in the United States, the "Land of the Free"?

But there is a more important truth you should bear in mind. England has come to terms with its past. And that is not the case with certain other countries...

As to the facts... despite Hollywood's products, it was not the Titanic disaster that ended the class system in England - the Titanic was and always has been just a footnote in history - it was the Great War.

As to the movie, it's a while since I last watched it so I'm gonna watch it again and report back
 

W_L, you talk about "the British", but in fact you're talking about "the English".

And you talk about the class system - in England - in disparaging terms, and quite rightly. But you seriously believe there is no class system in the United States, the "Land of the Free"?

But there is a more important truth you should bear in mind. England has come to terms with its past. And that is not the case with certain other countries...

As to the facts... despite Hollywood's products, it was not the Titanic disaster that ended the class system in England - the Titanic was and always has been just a footnote in history - it was the Great War.

As to the movie, it's a while since I last watched it so I'm gonna watch it again and report back

Alright, "English" were mean and their class system was abhorrent, does that make the scots, welsh, and certain irish folk (be glad i didn't review "borstal boy") feel better

As for history, I jusy despise this period, but the film was.fine.

As for the Titanic, I think the stories of crew atrocities against the third class passengers during its sinking helped raise awareness that the "English" class system had gone too far. Blocking third class exit routes, putting 1st class people in boats first, and the sheer scope of it was an important part of the eventual.collapse of such a system.

As for the US, we have a different issue, we ignore the poor and underprevilege, american society does not actively disparage and treat them as subhuman unlike "English" class system.

As for the Titanic, I think the stories of crew atrocities against the third class passengers during its sinking helped raise awareness that the "English" class system had gone too far. Blocking third class exit routes, putting 1st class people in boats first, and the sheer scope of it was an important part of the eventual.collapse of such a system.

 

As for the US, we have a different issue, we ignore the poor and underprevilege, american society does not actively disparage and treat them as subhuman unlike "English" class system.

Wrong again. Read your history, W_L. The "crew atrocities" on the Titanic only came to light in the latter part of the 20th century - when the English "class system" you refer to was long gone [except the die-hards who had to die out and the few remaining relics...]

Even a cursory knowledge of history will show you how the Great War was the cause of the demise of the English class system. This is the centenary year of the commencement so now's a good time to learn about it

As for the US being a "different issue" call it what you will (if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... then it IS a duck ) there is an embedded class system in the US that is every bit as toxic as the class system in England was. If you want references I'll give you them by the bucketload when I'm back online in a few days time. But I suspect you know them already

Agree to disagree on the impact of the Titanic, I didn't say it sank the English class system just was the death knell that as a part of a long process toward modern UK. You got to admit the large loss of life among the third class passengers was atrocious and historical records from both american/british board of inquiry did hear accounts and began changes of ship evacuation without class distinction.

WWI may have been the title fight, but the disaster was the qualifier to borrow a boxing analogy. Unless you believe in all the foolish hype thar is beng spun about WWI due ro the century anniversary, nothing truly happens in a vacuum or due to one all encompassing event. (Historians sometime sound like priests peddling their Almighty truth to be tbe one thing that is important).

As for imperial great britain vs. Imperial US, at least we don't use "the white man's burden" as an excuse for it, pure greed is our poison.

Brideshead Revisited is an Evelyn Waugh book that became a mini series 1981 and later a movie in 2008. I wonder how you would view those. I remember liking Maurice.

Agree to disagree on the impact of the Titanic, I didn't say it sank the English class system just was the death knell that as a part of a long process toward modern UK.

Well, you said "it [the titanic disaster] marked the death knell of British Class based society". No it didn't. Nor was it "an important part of the eventual.collapse of such a system."

Because there is no causal link between what happened in the Titanic disaster and the subsequent history of England or Britain. None at all. For the simple reason there was no discussion of "Blocking third class exit routes, putting 1st class people in boats first" by the Board of Trade Inquiry or anyone else so your suggestion of any connection between the Titanic and subsequent social change in England and Britain is fantasy.

But I am pleased to see you've followed my suggestion to read up on the Great War Although quite what you made of it remains to be seen when I get around to reading your next blog...

More importantly though, I've found my copy of Maurice so I'll post a comment when I've watched it again

I disagree, the British board of trade inquiry did recommend changes to the process and procedures of shipboard evacuations. New maratime regulations for organizing lifeboat departures were established without class distinction. Also, both American and British inquiry took in witness accounts, so I doubt everyone was blind and death between 1912-1913. While they might not have acted on the testimony in all deliberations (no criminal charges), it did make an impact on at least one area of society. Considering the majority of transit across the atlantic was done by ocean during the time, it would amount to something similar to capping work hours in dangerous mines and factories for children under 12. While that new regulations don't remove that era's use of child labor but it was a start and at least acknowledged an issue. Same thing with the titanic.

It's fine though we can disagree amicably without chewing and clawing

It's very simple - show the evidence to support your claims that the Titanic disaster "marked the death knell of British Class based society" and that it was "an important part of the eventual.collapse of such a system"

Well, 1st to counter your argument that there, "The "crew atrocities" on the Titanic only came to light in the latter part of the 20th century", the testimony was heard by the both Inquiries, though the British Inquiry deemed it untrue

http://www.titanicinquiry.org/BOTInq/BOTReport/botRep3rdClass.php

As I said, they both heard the testimony, but it does not mean they acted on it. Still hearing it at least brought a light onto an existing issue. (Where do you think some of the later questions of crew mistreatment came from, wonder where the testimonial evidence came from )

As for the an example of an important change in the new recommended regulations was:
 

 

19. That in all such ships a police system should be organised so as to secure obedience to orders, and proper control and guidance of all on board in times of emergency.

 

So my point is "baby steps" toward progress and continued to be made as the stories began to filter into the mainstream from the eyewitnesses.

So I have disproved your point that the testimony were not known back in 1912 and showed a slight improvement in safety conditions for third class passengers, who were the poorest segments of society.

World War I did not end the old class system that existed at the time, it took 30 more years and another war to do that.

Now I dare you to prove that World War I ended the British Class System and show proof

"I have disproved your point that the testimony were not known back in 1912..."

Um, no. You haven't produced any such evidence.

Inquiries hear lots of testimony. The official report by the British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry rejected this testimony. Likewise the U.S. Senate Investigation found that allegations that third class passengers were locked below decks were false.

Specifically, the link you posted clearly shows the British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry found that:
- "There appears to have been no truth in these suggestions"
- "no evidence has been given in the course of this case which would substantiate a charge that any attempt was made to keep back the third class passengers"
- "there is no evidence that ... there was any discrimination practiced", and
- "they were not unfairly treated".

What mattered 100 years ago is what was found by official inquiries and published, and 100 years ago rejected testimony would not have been widely known or given any credibility.

So there we have it. You've provided no evidence to support your outlandish claim that the 1912 Titanic disaster "marked the death knell of British Class based society" and that it was "an important part of the eventual.collapse of such a system"


"World War I did not end the old class system that existed at the time, it took 30 more years and another war to do that."

You've already answered this in your WW1 blog and we seem to be in agreement

"[WW1 was] a catalyst for reflection ... our modern world ... owe a lot to it"
"After the war, the class system still remained intact in England, but questions began to emerge challenging the established order. it was not an all out rebellion against British society ... but the real change was a slow social revolution of thought."
 

You have your opinion and I have mine

By the way If you read the British reasons for ruling out the third class passenger claims, you would find some overt racism (Brits blaming "foreigners" for being ignorant and afraid to lose their luggage for so many staying in teerage deck). Americans like Britain was also unsympathetic to these new immigrants; though, they had advocates.

While Dickens' characters were impoverished anglo saxons, a lot of the poorest laborers of industrial age were foreign migrant workers.

You have your opinion and I have mine

Of course you're entitled to your own opinion. But when you cannot produce relevant evidence of any causal link to support your extraordinary claim that the Titanic disaster "marked the death knell of British Class based society" and that it was "an important part of the eventual.collapse of such a system" then it is not a valid opinion.

I will neither concede nor continue the point of argument. Validity is as worthless as pride, because we still have people out there arguing over the validity of other historical events' importance for hunsreds of years after the fact.

I am older and mature enough from the past experiences to know that pointless arguments are not worth the time as we will not agree. I have pointed to the facts and testimonial claims, which were reported to show it existed in 1912 public consciousness. However, racism and anti-immigrant sentiment were still quite strong. The conclusion reached were injust, but that was how the world worked.

Trurh is in the beholder, my job is not to sway you.

Btw, what happened to your review

I have pointed to the facts and testimonial claims, which were reported to show it existed in 1912 public consciousness.

but that's the whole point - that testimony and those allegations did NOT - as you claim - "exist in the 1912 public consciousness".

Because they were not reported.

And because they were not reported they did NOT "exist in the 1912 public consciousness"

And because they did not "exist in the 1912 public consciousness" they had NO effect on "British Class based society" nor had they any part whatsoever in "the eventual.collapse of such a system".