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Plagiarism


 

Plagiarism

It was a very very long time ago but I can remember the whole issue vividly, because when I really sat down and gave it some deep thought...I was kind of conflicted about the idea. And maybe I still I am to a degree where it's still pretty hard to decide whether or not I'd be willing to say 'never say never'. And that had to do with a few Diet Coke commercials on TV and a rapidly growing technology that was suddenly brought to a screeching stop just as it was becoming something unheard of up to that point.

But...before we even get started on all that, I'm going to make the vague assumption that we all know that plagiarism is is just...wrong. And I'm talking about direct, deliberate, theft of someone's creative output for your own gain. I mean, can we agree on that? I've only had it happen to me two or three times since I started the Shack, and I can honestly say that it was a serious WTF moment, every time. I think the worst one was having someone take my entire story, change the names of my characters, and then just post it on Nifty under his own email...giving me no credit at all. That wasn't an accident. That story was re-edited and re-posted for the distinct purpose of making it seem like my story never existed at all. Luckily, I had already posted that story on Nifty, and could easily write to them with a link and a timestamp, that proved my case, and the other story was removed immediately. There's no hard feelings about it, really...but what would even make somebody think it would be ok to even attempt to do something like that? That's just baffling to me.

I have had some of my ideas stolen, posted on other websites without my consent, and even downloaded and sold on a disc for their own profit and the praise of their paying 'customers'. Oh, it does happen, believe me. My one saving grace has always been that I give, like, 95% of everything I've written over the past 20+ years away for free. And everybody knows that. If anything, anybody that has read my stuff (even in different languages) will not only report back to me about it right away, but they will tell everybody who read that story where to find more of my stuff for free, and let them know who the real author was all along. So it's basically free advertisement for me and my website, basically. But people still suck for doing it.

How hard is it to come up with your OWN ideas and characters? It doesn't cost you anything but a little bit of time and effort. So why not make it on your own instead of leeching off of someone else's brainchild? Just...TRY, you know? Sit down, put your fingers on your own keyboard, and stare at that blank screen until you come up with something original to say. Don't tell me that it can't be done, because I surpassed the six MILLION word count mark a long long time ago! So don't tell me those folks can't come up with one or two stories of their own every few months. That's ridiculous. They just need to stop cheating all the time, that's all. Show your heart. You've got a personal story to tell of your very own. No need to snatch one away from somebody else. It's insulting.

That being said...that isn't quite what this article is about...

I know that sounds strange, considering that I just made this big case about how awful and wrong plagiarism is. How can Comsie possible be conflicted about this? And that takes us back to the Diet Coke commercials that I spoke about earlier.

In the early 90's, technology was doing some amazing things with computers and film composites on screen. Naturally, we had things like Mary Poppins, Mr. Limpett, and Roger Rabbit...but that was always combining live action with animation. Movies like the original Tron, upped the ante a bit more in the late 80's, and so on. But...believe it or not, the tech existed to start putting actual celebrity performances into commercials and combining the in a way that was almost flawless in its delivery. I can remember being so AMAZED at what I was looking at when these commercials first started coming out! Especially since I had such an affection of the old black and white movies growing up, even though I was still in early high school at the time. I had just never seen anything like that before.

The old time silver screen movie stars had been colorized and were brought into modern day to interact with real life people like they were actually there. Hehehe, Paula Abdul and Elton John??? Really? I just thought it was all so cool!

Give these a look...and keep in mind, these were made thirty YEARS ago before the...ummm...backlash...

 

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You may have enjoyed those, and you should! They were awesome! Hehehe!

But the question is...and I'd really love your feedback on this...is it ok to do this sort of thing? Like ever?

This was in the 90's, so I'm pretty sure that all of these stars had passed away before these commercials were made. It's not like they gave consent to have their likeness used to sell Coca Cola products. This was an era where CGI was advancing at an alarming rate in terms of what it could do on screen, and there was an uproar over the idea of using some of these cinematic heroes to dance and smile and hock snake oil for whatever corporation that was rich enough to buy the rights to them. "You want Forrest Gump to meet JFK? Sure...we can do that! Just sign the check!" And once I really thought about the concept of it all...I began to wonder where the line was drawn between paying a fun 'homage' to something that you love and appreciate, and 'abusing' it for your own purposes and personal grab for attention. I think things got blurred back then for a moment back then, and questions of morality and ethics came into play.

That's what I'd like to talk about this time around, because I'd love to hear your take on it. I've got more questions than answers on this one. I still find it hard to find a place where one stops and the other begins. Because I highly doubt that those commercials were done with any level of malice, nor were the people who invented the technology to make it happen. So where do you guys stand on this?

Me, personally...I've always been honored, flattered, and overjoyed, to have another writer want to use one of my characters or write a spinoff to one of my own stories. That has always been a thrill for me. :) It brings out my ego and gives a few gentle strokes. Hehehe! I only ask that they ask me for permission, and list me as an inspiration for the original story. Like I said, almost everything that I do is for free. I'm not looking to get rich off of this I just want to make a difference. And as long as someone doesn't copy me, word for word, and pass it off as their own work...I'm cool with it. Even if they decide to publish it and make a fortune, it's like, "Don't forget me when you reach the top!" Right? Just give me a little credit, and I'm fine with that. But if someone is just going to straight up steal my idea and make it their own? I mean, I've got thousands of witnesses who will say it's not your story. And now you've got problems.

But, again...I wonder where the creative license lie? Stephanie Meyers wrote the "Twilight" series as a collection of novels, and then turned it into a series of movies. Good for her. But the whole "50 Shades Of Gray" novel series, and subsequent movies, originally started out as "Twilight" fanfiction. And whether you liked those novels or movies at all...they both made heaps of money off of what was essentially the exact same idea, just with a bunch of the details changed. So is that allowed? Again, there's no animosity or malice involved...but does that actually count as plagiarism? Is that theft? Or an homage? And can it be an homage without direct permission from the original artist? Its not like it doesn't happen all the time.

One of the main quotes that I always bring up from my writing teacher in college was, "There are no NEW stories since the Romans." Every aspect of life, love, betrayal, conflict, horror, comedy, war, revenge, and suffering, has been tackled before. "The Most Dangerous Game" has man hunting man. But so does Arnold Schwarzenegger's "Predator". Can you say that was a rip off? Batman is one of my favorite heroes of all time...but I know that the creators based him on Zorro mixed with The Shadow. Superman was a baby that had to be put in a capsule and sent away to be found by another pair of loving parents who would raise him and help him free the people of Earth. That's the story of Moses. The baby sent down the river to escape destruction and raised to free the slaves. And let's not even think about how many times "Romeo And Juliet" has been told, time and time again. It's practically woven into every romantic comedy you've ever seen at one point or another. Certainly in my own stories like "A Class By Himself", "On The Outside", "My Only Escape", "Gone From Daylight"...stories about love between two people who want to be together but outside circumstances won't allow them to be. And things reach levels of desperation where thy have to choose between staying together or staying apart, no matter what their differences may be. But is it plagiarism every time I write a tragic romance story?

I mean, if I write a story called "Rodney and Julia", with a similar idea...does that come off as a shameless copy? Even if I drastically change the details? Maybe it's the intent, and not the story itself that makes all the difference. Because there ARE people out there who really do try to beg, borrow, and steal, from everybody around them in order to make themselves look good...simply because they have nothing of their own to say. Wolves among sheep. With no shame at all.

And yet, I'm still on the ropes about the issue. Hell, even I would love to make "Waiting Outside The Lines" an ebook after all of the hard work that I put in to bring it to life. But that started off as a fanfic too! Between a teen Greyson Chance, Asa Butterfield, and Chandler Riggs. I even made an announcement for it last year to let people know that I was changing up a ton of the details to make it my own. But the original fanfic takes place on the acting set of "The Walking Dead", which was one of my favorite zombie TV shows ever at the time! But I had also written a zombie story of my own called, "Shelter" before even starting the fanfic, and it's drastically different. So, how hard would it be to take those characters over to a new story, change their names, tweak a few details here and there...and bring them all into a fictional "Shelter" TV series instead? With fictional actors (The main character is already fictional anyway), and a fictional boy pop star? Is that cheating? Is that...plagiarism?

 

season 8 twd GIF by The Walking Dead

Or is it still my own creation, being melded together with another one of my own creations? See? This is where I get stuck in a gray area. And I need a few differences of opinion to maybe give me direction to lean in, one or the other. Because I cant say that I'm really sure.

Even when I use pics for my stories on here on the site, it's never a case of me trying to rip somebody off or steal something from them. They just fit the character description that I was imagining at the time. You want credit for it? You got it. Talk to me. Give me a link if you have a site. I'm not getting paid for ANY of this. I'm broke all the time! LOL! But if you can get paid for your work, go for it. When have I ever refused to promote someone's work? It's never happened. I LOVE promoting other people's work! I do it on the site, I thank them on the mailing list, I do it in Imagine Magazine...everywhere. Every single week on the Shack, I promote movies that people may not have seen, music they may not have heard, stories they may not have read. Talk to me. You can get all the free advertisement you want. The only reason that I don't ask for permission ahead of time is because I don't know who to ask.

As popular as my huge variety of "Gone From Daylight" vampire spinoffs are in the "GFD: Worlds", there are many MANY more in the 'Vampire Scriptures' section of the "GFD: Blood Bank" website, written by a TON of different writers who just liked the series and wanted to write stories of their own! And there's also the 'Vampire Sightings' section that is full of photoshopped interpreted pics of the main characters and some really talented artwork from artists all over the world! I love it! TAKE it! You know? Give me and the main story a footnote, and then go wild.

People will tell you...anytime they ask me for permission to write something going on with my story, it's very RARE that I don't immediately say yes! I say go for it, and let me know where you are so I can guide people your way! The only time I might say no, is if it's a really big and important story to me personally (Like "GFD", "My Only Escape", "Jesse-101", etc)...and I kinda worked my ass off to make that my own thing, and to draw people into my site...not somebody else's. That's just a thing for me. The big stories are the gemstones in my Thanos Gauntlet! Hehehe! Those aren't for you! Write your own! But if you're writing your own story, and any of my characters happen to show up, or it's hooked into a certain mythology that I created for that story...than you're more than welcome to it. TAKE IT!!! Hehehe!

I've got a lot of love to share in this life, and I don't have any plans to be buried with any of it left when it's my time to go. Not ever.

So, this is the part where you guys tell me what you feel about plagiarism and paying homage to an author you like or maybe even writing a story that may be linked to his or hers out of sheer love for they're doing, and maybe seeing if you can improve on it in the long run.

The last thing that I would ever want to do is plagiarize someone else's work. I think that's despicable in a bunch of different ways. But I've seen people take pictures of the MOON...and try to 'privatize' it and own it and cover it with watermarks, and it's like, "Come on, dude. Really? You own the MOON now?" I mean, spending an hour on your own personal artwork with pencils and ink and paint...I get it. That makes total sense to me. But, like...'click'...here's a picture of a tree. Five hundred dollars, please! Get out of here! I don't know...there's got to be a line somewhere where people can see a cute pic of a squirrel and use it for one thousand memes on Google, and you calling it your own specific hard work just because you grabbed it from somwhere else first. Let's be honest. You'd be a millionaire if it weren't for someone borrowing a phase from Shakespeare? Or quoting a Prince song from the eighties?

What are your ethics on this? I'd love to know. Because the line gets blurred more and more every day. Hehehe, thinking back on those Diet Coke commercials seems like an eternity ago now! Imagine if the tech had kept evolving nonstop from way back then? I mean Marvel can take Samuel L Jackson, Kurt Russell, and Michael Douglas...and de-age them a full 30 or 40 years now, with ease! We can bring actors back from the dead for movies and video games! And we can have full blown 3-D holograms of 2Pac perform live on sage in front of a crowd of thousands at Coachella! (Seriously...look it up on Youtbe! WTF???) At what point does morality get thrown out the window for the sake of something awesome here? Or is it just...something to be pissed about?

Look at this! Hehehe, Sylvester Stallone as Macauley Culkin in "Home Alone"? The Avengers in the Wizard Of Oz"? (Actually...hehehe Tom Holland makes a pretty hot, 'Dorothy'! Just sayin'!) But none of these people gave any consent for this. So...is it a joke? A copyright violation? I reason to get pissed? A reason to feel used? I don't know.

 

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And now we have THIS happening! Where you can barely tell what's real and what's digital! This is an actual video game right now! But the real actors are involved. And yet, if they hadn't been...would that be a violation of some kind in your mind?

 

Maybe you'd be honored by it. May you wouldn't think it was no big deal. Or maybe it would be offensive. What would you think if somebody used your likeness and your voice to sell Ramen noodles, or Jack Daniel's whiskey, or the new ad for investing in Bitcoin, without your consent?

I'm just curious. I'd like to think that I wouldn't care, personally. But after being taken advantage of in the past, I wonder if I would still feel the same way.

Any thoughts?

 

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Zombie

Posted (edited)

43 minutes ago, Tim Hobson said:

There's a good article about trademarking here: https://www.newsweek.com/meghan-markle-archetypes-trademark-podcast-1695615

A lot of "common" words are trademarked as the names of products, programs, podcasts, etc. But this has no effect on their use in every other possible way, especially writing - unless the writer is actually referring to the brand, and even then it's only limited by libel laws.


This is true, but where a business is established through effort and over time then most people would see justification for legal protection by trademark - not opportunistic “land grabs” where no effort has been made (other than paying lawyers) and over time in order to justify such protection (such legal protection which would in itself instantly, and with no physical/business effort, create a “real estate” asset with significant commercial value purely on the back of the legal “land grab”). And then there’s encroachment - extending the “borders” of your real estate into other areas until total control is achieved. Could you set up a local grocery business trading as “Apple”? Pretty soon, I suspect, you’d have a bunch of unsmiling lawyers knocking on your door... :o Indeed Apple had to pay a price (chicken feed at today’s values :P) to buy the trade name from The Beatles who’d created their own Apple Corps music business while Steve Jobs was still an annoying kid at school… :lol:

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Edit to add

not living in a big city, I just spotted that Apple already moved into the grocery business years ago… proving the point :funny:

https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/stores/apple-paves-way-for-retailers-to-trade-mark-store-layouts/369304.article

Edited by Zombie
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Tim Hobson

Posted

56 minutes ago, Zombie said:


This is true, but where a business is established through effort and over time then most people would see justification for legal protection by trademark - not opportunistic “land grabs” where no effort has been made (other than paying lawyers) and over time in order to justify such protection (such legal protection which would in itself instantly, and with no physical/business effort, create a “real estate” asset with significant commercial value purely on the back of the legal “land grab”). And then there’s encroachment - extending the “borders” of your real estate into other areas until total control is achieved. Could you set up a local grocery business trading as “Apple”? Pretty soon, I suspect, you’d have a bunch of unsmiling lawyers knocking on your door... :o Indeed Apple had to pay a price (chicken feed at today’s values :P) to buy the trade name from The Beatles who’d created their own Apple Corps music business while Steve Jobs was still an annoying kid at school… :lol:

——

Edit to add

not living in a big city, I just spotted that Apple already moved into the grocery business years ago… proving the point :funny:

https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/stores/apple-paves-way-for-retailers-to-trade-mark-store-layouts/369304.article

I have started two businesses in my life. Anyone thinking of branding a new business will (1) check to see if the  brand name is already trademarked, and (2) apply for the trademark before anything else (or making a public announcement of the new name).

Failing to secure the trademark early on often results in it being taken "hostage" by some crook who has no intention of operating the business but just wants you to pay them to sell you the trademark. Or you have to sue them about it. Any company that waits until is "established through effort and over time" before securing their trademark is risking an unpleasant and expensive surprise.

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Tim Hobson

Posted

6 minutes ago, CassieQ said:

The big difference to me, is between ideas and story.  I think there are no new ideas, but you can take an idea, a concept and make it your own.  If I have an idea of a...I dunno, a cowboy falling in love with a city slicker or something,  I can't claim that idea and say that no one else can write it because they are stealing my idea.  But if I work to make it my own....flesh out the plot, develop the characters, write it my way, then I would say if someone took that, it would be plagiarism.  It's my work at that point.  Anything in between is a gray area, but most people are cognizant enough to know when something is theirs, and when it's not.  If you don't put the work in, real work, not just changing a characters name or the title, then it's not yours and claiming it as such is wrong.

Excellent statement of the issue!

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Tim Hobson

Posted

36 minutes ago, Mrsgnomie said:

I have found all of my stories stolen at some point. Last week I found out that someone on Fiverr was using my work to sell their ability. They weren't selling my work, per say, they were sending excerpts of my story to potential clients to sell their ability as a writer. That was new to me. Luckily, the potential client was reading the story here on GA, notified me, and then reported them. Seems like a real risk lol. I suppose people lie on their resume all the time.

I read tons of books and most of those stories inspire me a little. I just finished one yesterday. The book itself was, meh. Despite the great reviews on Amazon, I found it to drag on and on. It was a mediocre read at best. BUT the concept of the story was neat and I couldn't put it down because it was stewing up a storm in my writer's brain. The chances are, I will end up writing my own version. I wouldn't consider it plagiarism because it will be my work inspired by their concept.

I agree with @Mikiesboy. Copy and pasting a story is not the same as being inspired by a story.

Now, can you imagine if an entire genre was trademarked? Yikes.

Sorry to hear how your intellectual property has been misused and abused. I have not found that happen to me yet because I'm new to this genre. In my career as a technical writer, things that I wrote or edited or contributed to have often been quoted, sometimes without attribution, but that almost always gets caught, and the disdain of the academic and scientific community is punishment enough for plagiarism.

But let's keep in mind how the trademarking process actually works. You don't just lay a claim and you own the trademark. The US Patent and Trademark Office (who are evaluating Duchess Meghan's request) are very thorough and highly regulated. They deny a large number of requests, and they follow up if a trademark is challenged. Of course, you need the services of a large law firm that specializes in patent law if you're in a battle over a trademark.

This might be a good point to mention copyright. You don't need to file anything to assert a copyright. You just need to keep documentation that proves the date and situation in which the material was first publicly available. The © symbol is all you need to stake your ownership of created intellectual property. Registering a copyright might be important for JK Rowling, but small fry like us don't need to do that. The date of publication is for us irrefutable proof of ownership. I remember reading a more detailed explanation on Amazon's Author Pages somewhere.

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Mawgrim

Posted

2 hours ago, Mrsgnomie said:

I have found all of my stories stolen at some point. Last week I found out that someone on Fiverr was using my work to sell their ability. They weren't selling my work, per say, they were sending excerpts of my story to potential clients to sell their ability as a writer. That was new to me. Luckily, the potential client was reading the story here on GA, notified me, and then reported them. Seems like a real risk lol. I suppose people lie on their resume all the time.

I read tons of books and most of those stories inspire me a little. I just finished one yesterday. The book itself was, meh. Despite the great reviews on Amazon, I found it to drag on and on. It was a mediocre read at best. BUT the concept of the story was neat and I couldn't put it down because it was stewing up a storm in my writer's brain. The chances are, I will end up writing my own version. I wouldn't consider it plagiarism because it will be my work inspired by their concept.

I agree with @Mikiesboy. Copy and pasting a story is not the same as being inspired by a story.

Now, can you imagine if an entire genre was trademarked? Yikes.

That's awful. I'm glad they didn't get away with it. 

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Zombie

Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Tim Hobson said:

This might be a good point to mention copyright. You don't need to file anything to assert a copyright. You just need to keep documentation that proves the date and situation in which the material was first publicly available. The © symbol is all you need to stake your ownership of created intellectual property. Registering a copyright might be important for JK Rowling, but small fry like us don't need to do that. The date of publication is for us irrefutable proof of ownership. I remember reading a more detailed explanation on Amazon's Author Pages somewhere.


under English law, copyright exists automatically from the moment of creation of an original work eg visual arts, music composition, writing etc - it does not need to be registered or asserted. The key issue, as you correctly point out, is having documentary evidence to prove who created it and when, should a dispute arise - I’ve simply emailed a pdf to myself which is quick and simple.

Interestingly English laws of copyright for printed material started to develop under Henry VIII (initially to control the printers) which continued to be developed and extended (eg Hogarth’s Act) then in the 1800s the Berne Convention provided the framework for international protection, providing mutual recognition of signatories’ copyright laws and minimum legal standards. Sadly, digital media proved too problematic and the current position for international protection has become more complicated :( 

https://rkip.ca/2015/04/10/early-history-of-copyright-part-1-letters-patent/

Edited by Zombie
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Headstall

Posted

My "Morningstar: The Malaise" was stolen and posted on Wattpad a few years back and I had no idea until I read a posting by @Cia about how this happens and how we can and should be on the alert for it. It was a great article and should be reposted. Sorry I don't have the link, but it was a 'how to' for checking if a story has been posted elsewhere on the internet.  

Anyway, even though my story had been taken down at the time I found out, it devastated me. I am thankful for whoever reported it, but it didn't change the fact it affected me deeply. I wasn't flattered as someone suggested I should be. No. I felt violated (or maybe a better word is vulnerable), and I was angry! I guess I still am.  

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Mrsgnomie

Posted

1 minute ago, Headstall said:

My "Morningstar: The Malaise" was stolen and posted on Wattpad a few years back and I had no idea until I read a posting by @Cia about how this happens and how we can and should be on the alert for it. It was a great article and should be reposted. Sorry I don't have the link, but it was a 'how to' for checking if a story has been posted elsewhere on the internet.  

Anyway, even though my story had been taken down at the time I found out, it devastated me. I am thankful for whoever reported it, but it didn't change the fact it affected me deeply. I wasn't flattered as someone suggested I should be. No. I felt violated (or maybe a better word is vulnerable), and I was angry! I guess I still am.  

I'd be curious how to check. I admit, I'm not active about checking my stories because I'm not sure how to go about it. 

I think feeling violated is understandable. I felt violated when my work was stolen. I was more annoyed this last time, when my work was stolen in a different way, but it's still a violation. 

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Headstall

Posted

9 minutes ago, Mrsgnomie said:

I'd be curious how to check. I admit, I'm not active about checking my stories because I'm not sure how to go about it. 

I think feeling violated is understandable. I felt violated when my work was stolen. I was more annoyed this last time, when my work was stolen in a different way, but it's still a violation. 

I haven't really checked since that time because of how upset it made me. Basically, you quote a passage from your work on the google search bar--enclose it in quote marks--and then click 'search google' beneath that bar. I think you can only quote so many words (32?) and if I'm not mistaken, @Ciasuggested not including character names in the quote.

I guess it's time I did another check. :( 

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CassieQ

Posted

42 minutes ago, Headstall said:

 Anyway, even though my story had been taken down at the time I found out, it devastated me. I am thankful for whoever reported it, but it didn't change the fact it affected me deeply. I wasn't flattered as someone suggested I should be. No. I felt violated (or maybe a better word is vulnerable), and I was angry! I guess I still am.  

I had my work stolen before.  I was so angry I hurt my shoulder punching a couch cushion.  I don't think I've talked to an author who felt flattered by the theft of their work.  It's like being flattered that someone stole my purse because they liked the design or thought I looked rich.  It doesn't make sense to me.

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northie

Posted

1 hour ago, Headstall said:

It was a great article and should be reposted.

Here's the link:

 

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Headstall

Posted

5 hours ago, northie said:

Here's the link:

 

Thanks, northie! 

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Headstall

Posted

6 hours ago, CassieQ said:

I had my work stolen before.  I was so angry I hurt my shoulder punching a couch cushion.  I don't think I've talked to an author who felt flattered by the theft of their work.  It's like being flattered that someone stole my purse because they liked the design or thought I looked rich.  It doesn't make sense to me.

Yeah, the being flattered thing fell flat for sure, but they were attempting to console me. I've done a lot of things in my life, but to that point I don't think I'd ever worked harder or given so much of myself, in creating that particular work. :) 

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