Hey Nick

As you know I've been participating in that discussion. It is a very serious issue, I'm enjoying it discussing and was actually thinking perhaps we ought to start a new thread specifically for it.

I will say that I personally think it's a bit of an over-simplification to pinpoint Africa's problems on environmentalism (or any one cause), but I'll also concede that that's one of the major factors. I'm sure you'll check out what I said in the Soapbox, but here's the relevant bit regarding the cause again:

Sure, but don't you think that a lack of jobs, industry, access to technology have contributed to these problems? What other continent do you know of whose inhabitants are exposed to so many of nature's ravages? People in Africa need industry, jobs, a working economy, access to education and the same healthcare that's available to the rest of the world.

Do you honestly think that the reason the AIDS virus is spreading so rampantly throughout Africa is because its people have kept pace with the rest of the world and have the same educational opportunities? Do you think that malaria would be a problem if they cleared out the rain forests and built factories and created jobs? Would the tribes be fighting amongst each other if their men and women had jobs and incomes to they could build houses and own nice cars?

I have to make one comment at this point, the 'ideal' you're proposing sounds wonderful, and certainly a lot better than the flip side. However, what you're essentially proposing is a completely Westernizing of Africa. From almost any Westerner's personal point of view that would objectively be better. However, the problem there is that we're being ethnocentric.

Africa's culture is completely different from the Western world's. I dare say that the lifestyle you're proposing wouldn't be that appealing to a great many Africans (just speculating). Pragmatically it's probably an inescapable eventual set of motives for Africans since obviously Western culture has more power than traditional African culture. So eventually you're going to have Africans wanting those things, but a lot of them would probably be very distasteful to a traditionally minded African. Of course they want the disease and violence to end, but the majority of them would probably then prefer to go back to their traditional life sans these problems (versus in addition to our 'added quality').

That's mostly an irrelevant aside though because as I said pragmatically it's probably all but impossible to stop Western culture and values from eventually dominating Africa (in certain parts it already does).

The fact of the matter is that most Americans and the rest of the western world have a very elitist and prejudicial view of themselves, and live a life of privilidge and luxury. Some (not all) of the poorest American families live with electricity, running water, microwaves, cars, cell phones and cable or satelite tv. They can walk into any hospital and get care, even if they can't pay.

That's very true and I completely agree with you. Most Americans and Westerners are very elitist and prejudiced in this way, not to mention comparatively 'spoiled'. (but then of course if we look at it from their perspective they look much less 'sinful')

 

As I said previously, most of the first world nations, and many of the second world nations, rely on the subjugation of the third world nations. The global economy, manufacturing industry, and farming industry, and technology industry (to name but a few) would all have to undergo a major transformation to remain viable if all the third world nations suddenly 'upped their status'.

 

The fact that it's pretty much impossible for them to 'suddenly up their status' (these things take a minimum of decades) is actually encouraging in that it will allow these industries to more gradually and 'naturally' adjust (as they have gradually and naturally adjusted to date). Of course this increased time takes a major toll in terms of human lives and suffering (but then a collapse of the global system would do that as well).

 

Unfortunately it's a major and pervasive problem and there simply aren't any simple solutions. Beyond 'hoping' that everything works out for the best with the maximizing of all around happiness, safety, and prosperity I don't think there's much we could do...well of course we could try to become major players in the drama in some ways; however given the complexity and multi-level, multi-industry nature of it I think becoming a 'major player' in an extremely powerful and meaningful way is all but impossible anyway. The system is simply too big to control or accurately predict.

 

I do agree that at the heart of it all we need to do our best to feed the hungry, eradicate the disease, and probably try to maintain the peace (interfering with global politics is always risky business IMO.), so I'm all for humanitarian efforts, but I just think this is too complicated an issue to pin down to any one factor or culprit (well the 'culprit' is the first world nations in general...)

I suppose that's a very dour view on the whole thing, but I really think the problems are too complicated to pinpoint any one major cause beyond general exploitation from first world nations, which has taken place since colonial times and continues to this day. I also don't think there's any simple or expedient solution.

I studied this issue extensively in multiple sociology classes and unfortunately the entire global economy is set up to facilitate first world nations exploiting third world nations, which essentially boils down to the Western world exploiting Africa. It's completely inexcusable, but it's majorly entrenched and complicated, we'd just as soon tackle peace in the Middle East.

To offer some explanation for why it began happening in the first place and why it continues I'll offer up the concept of diffusion of guilt. Basically, yeah Americans, Canadians, Western Europeans, and people in some Eastern Asian countries are largely to blame in a multitude of ways for a multitude of Africa's problems, but you do have several countries that are to blame, and you have several governments, and BILLIONS of people who are very very indirectly to blame. The average American (or Frenchman or Japanese person or...) doesn't feel a whole lot of personal guilt for what's going on in Africa because he/she number 1) probably doesn't even think about it at all, and number 2) could legitimately share the blame equally with everyone he/she knows. As a result most people don't feel much personal responsibility to do anything about it. Admittedly, I at least don't think there is a lot an individual person could do about it. It's beyond the scope of even the politicians of individual nations. In my opinion a serious effort would requite a major synergy of several of the world's most powerful countries, and even there they would still run into major obstacles regarding international diplomacy and international business. They were also run into a lot of internal obstacles related to the upheaval and instability of the various African nations, plus disease and generally poorly established infrastructures. Of course such a major effort is unlikely to happen in the first place because it would require several powerful nations working together in a concerted effort, and I just can't see getting the various governments of these nations behind it.

Personally I think the best individuals can do is let their government know that they should be something about the problems (which will bring about a very slow and gradual change, which is still better than nothing) and basically focus on humanitarian efforts. We can do simple good works that will help to some extent, but until the major underlying problems are addressed that's just putting a band-aid on the wound...but that too is probably better than nothing.

It's just a very bleak situation.

The only reason I can come up with in my head is that they see themselves as a little, or a lot, better than Africans. And that view of themselves is probably born of racism. Basically, in their minds, the Western world is mostly white, and Africa is almost exclusively black. So it doesn't matter as much, right?

 

Wrong.

 

It's time for these idiots to get over themselves and their racism. Sell their cars, move out of their homes, live in the elements and see how they like it. In fact, they should give up whatever wealth they have and move to Africa so they can live the way they want others to live. Maybe then they'll change their minds.

Personally I don't think it's directly related to racism to a great extent today. In the early colonial times, which is what set the groundwork for all of this, it definitely was in that the Europeans felt themselves superior to the Africans and felt they had the right to exploit them. Today I think it's mostly just an entrenched system that was never broken out of and I'm inclined to think it would continue to perpetuate regardless of the people's skin colour.

Also, I think the big thing is that, as I said, most people in the first world nations don't think about this at all or realize their government/country's implicit role in it (and on the country level the role is implicit and not explicit).

OR if they think about Africa's problems at all (which really most people don't on a regular basis) they're inclined to pin the blame on something else. To be completely honest I think blaming it on "environmentalists" is a form of that. As I said that's probably one piece of the picture, but this is WAY bigger than just that. Even if any and every environmental issue were removed major inequities would still exist, and most people don't even get to the point of thinking it has anything to do with their own country, they instead conclude it has to do with internal conflict, disease, or simply a different culture...all of which is also very true.

Anyway, it's a very heartbreaking thing and it's worth discussing, but my honest opinion is that the problems are just too complicated, pervasive, and bleak to be solved by any one major thing (or heck any FIVE major things). This is going to take some time.

On the other hand it's certainly time to do something about it, we've been doing nothing about it for over 500 years now and that's obviously not helping.

-Kevin

I love your passion Sweetie.

You are just so wonderful.

HUGS!!!!!!

I love your passion Sweetie.

 

You are just so wonderful.

 

HUGS!!!!!!

Thank you laurie How have you been lately? We haven't emailed in a couple of weeks.

Hey Nick

 

As you know I've been participating in that discussion. It is a very serious issue, I'm enjoying it discussing and was actually thinking perhaps we ought to start a new thread specifically for it.

 

I will say that I personally think it's a bit of an over-simplification to pinpoint Africa's problems on environmentalism (or any one cause), but I'll also concede that that's one of the major factors. I'm sure you'll check out what I said in the Soapbox, but here's the relevant bit regarding the cause again:

 

Sure, but don't you think that a lack of jobs, industry, access to technology have contributed to these problems? What other continent do you know of whose inhabitants are exposed to so many of nature's ravages? People in Africa need industry, jobs, a working economy, access to education and the same healthcare that's available to the rest of the world.

 

Do you honestly think that the reason the AIDS virus is spreading so rampantly throughout Africa is because its people have kept pace with the rest of the world and have the same educational opportunities? Do you think that malaria would be a problem if they cleared out the rain forests and built factories and created jobs? Would the tribes be fighting amongst each other if their men and women had jobs and incomes to they could build houses and own nice cars?

 

I have to make one comment at this point, the 'ideal' you're proposing sounds wonderful, and certainly a lot better than the flip side. However, what you're essentially proposing is a completely Westernizing of Africa. From almost any Westerner's personal point of view that would objectively be better. However, the problem there is that we're being ethnocentric.

 

Africa's culture is completely different from the Western world's. I dare say that the lifestyle you're proposing wouldn't be that appealing to a great many Africans (just speculating). Pragmatically it's probably an inescapable eventual set of motives for Africans since obviously Western culture has more power than traditional African culture. So eventually you're going to have Africans wanting those things, but a lot of them would probably be very distasteful to a traditionally minded African. Of course they want the disease and violence to end, but the majority of them would probably then prefer to go back to their traditional life sans these problems (versus in addition to our 'added quality').

 

That's mostly an irrelevant aside though because as I said pragmatically it's probably all but impossible to stop Western culture and values from eventually dominating Africa (in certain parts it already does).

 

The fact of the matter is that most Americans and the rest of the western world have a very elitist and prejudicial view of themselves, and live a life of privilidge and luxury. Some (not all) of the poorest American families live with electricity, running water, microwaves, cars, cell phones and cable or satelite tv. They can walk into any hospital and get care, even if they can't pay.

I suppose that's a very dour view on the whole thing, but I really think the problems are too complicated to pinpoint any one major cause beyond general exploitation from first world nations, which has taken place since colonial times and continues to this day. I also don't think there's any simple or expedient solution.

 

I studied this issue extensively in multiple sociology classes and unfortunately the entire global economy is set up to facilitate first world nations exploiting third world nations, which essentially boils down to the Western world exploiting Africa. It's completely inexcusable, but it's majorly entrenched and complicated, we'd just as soon tackle peace in the Middle East.

 

To offer some explanation for why it began happening in the first place and why it continues I'll offer up the concept of diffusion of guilt. Basically, yeah Americans, Canadians, Western Europeans, and people in some Eastern Asian countries are largely to blame in a multitude of ways for a multitude of Africa's problems, but you do have several countries that are to blame, and you have several governments, and BILLIONS of people who are very very indirectly to blame. The average American (or Frenchman or Japanese person or...) doesn't feel a whole lot of personal guilt for what's going on in Africa because he/she number 1) probably doesn't even think about it at all, and number 2) could legitimately share the blame equally with everyone he/she knows. As a result most people don't feel much personal responsibility to do anything about it. Admittedly, I at least don't think there is a lot an individual person could do about it. It's beyond the scope of even the politicians of individual nations. In my opinion a serious effort would requite a major synergy of several of the world's most powerful countries, and even there they would still run into major obstacles regarding international diplomacy and international business. They were also run into a lot of internal obstacles related to the upheaval and instability of the various African nations, plus disease and generally poorly established infrastructures. Of course such a major effort is unlikely to happen in the first place because it would require several powerful nations working together in a concerted effort, and I just can't see getting the various governments of these nations behind it.

 

Personally I think the best individuals can do is let their government know that they should be something about the problems (which will bring about a very slow and gradual change, which is still better than nothing) and basically focus on humanitarian efforts. We can do simple good works that will help to some extent, but until the major underlying problems are addressed that's just putting a band-aid on the wound...but that too is probably better than nothing.

 

It's just a very bleak situation.

Personally I don't think it's directly related to racism to a great extent today. In the early colonial times, which is what set the groundwork for all of this, it definitely was in that the Europeans felt themselves superior to the Africans and felt they had the right to exploit them. Today I think it's mostly just an entrenched system that was never broken out of and I'm inclined to think it would continue to perpetuate regardless of the people's skin colour.

 

Also, I think the big thing is that, as I said, most people in the first world nations don't think about this at all or realize their government/country's implicit role in it (and on the country level the role is implicit and not explicit).

 

OR if they think about Africa's problems at all (which really most people don't on a regular basis) they're inclined to pin the blame on something else. To be completely honest I think blaming it on "environmentalists" is a form of that. As I said that's probably one piece of the picture, but this is WAY bigger than just that. Even if any and every environmental issue were removed major inequities would still exist, and most people don't even get to the point of thinking it has anything to do with their own country, they instead conclude it has to do with internal conflict, disease, or simply a different culture...all of which is also very true.

 

Anyway, it's a very heartbreaking thing and it's worth discussing, but my honest opinion is that the problems are just too complicated, pervasive, and bleak to be solved by any one major thing (or heck any FIVE major things). This is going to take some time.

 

On the other hand it's certainly time to do something about it, we've been doing nothing about it for over 500 years now and that's obviously not helping.

 

-Kevin

Thanks for the thoughtful insightful post, Kevin. The thing that gets me the most is Darfur. We know what's happening over there, and yet nothng's being done. Some people say it's gotten better, but how do you measure what better is when people are still being slaughtered. Is it time to turn our attention somewhere else now because not as many people are being butchered?

And what about Malaria? How is it that we live in the 21st century and yet, people over there are dying of Malaria? It's insane to me, and yet, when most people talk about Africa, all we here about is saving the rainforests. Well screw the damn rainforests, there's lives that have to be saved.

Thanks for the thoughtful insightful post, Kevin. The thing that gets me the most is Darfur. We know what's happening over there, and yet nothng's being done. Some people say it's gotten better, but how do you measure what better is when people are still being slaughtered. Is it time to turn our attention somewhere else now because not as many people are being butchered?

And what about Malaria? How is it that we live in the 21st century and yet, people over there are dying of Malaria? It's insane to me, and yet, when most people talk about Africa, all we here about is saving the rainforests. Well screw the damn rainforests, there's lives that have to be saved.

Well that's certainly something I agree with

It's difficult to imagine saving lives without saving the environment, especially when dealing with desertification, for instance.

Africa is a big continent, and different countries have VERY different ways of living, and even resources, political systems, cultural and ethnic issues, etc.

One thing is that our subsidized Western agricultures have really hurt this continent for quite a few decades, and I think that trading with partners that are not their equal did bring harm.

Add corruption in the wake of colonization, the strategical interests in the cold war, and yes , go search on how multinationals brought their grain of salt in impoverishing a continent brimming with natural resources. Check out IMF, western (an now Asian) trade partners and governments, and you'll see how intricate the situation is.