[Corvus] Mike and Winston

[corvus]

I don't think i give away anything if i say that the end of the story is in a way that there could be a sequel if Corvus feels like it. When i mentioned that to Corvus he told me he doesn't plan to continue it - at least not at the moment. But who knows .

 

Yeah, basically what YaP means is that the earth doesn't explode at the end of chapter 9.

 

 

I thought Gary said he didn't have any editors or beta-readers for this piece! *Stomps on the ground*

 

I'm going to volunteer as a beta-reader. That's freaking awesome. Then again, I'm not good at giving constructive criticism, so maybe I won't. I don't want to sound mean.

 

I look forward to reading more of his works in the future as well.

 

YaP did a great beta for me, actually, but since I was still working on it, touching up places and changing other things, it qualifies as a rough draft. I mean, that's what a rough draft is, right? Something that's not completely polished?

 

(That does bring to mind the validity of the term 'final draft'... if it's final, why's it still a draft? Sorry, not an English major here.)

 

I'm in that situation right now with someone who won't be publishing his novel on GA until it's completed. We've spent most of the day today trying to figure out how to deal with just one issue. It's a seemingly minor issue and yet at the same time is one that, if not handled correctly, will ruin the entire story.

 

Yeah, "minor issues" can be very important indeed. I wish that author the best of luck!

 

I didn't manage to quote everything I wanted to quote, so I'll add: I read a lot of Josh Aterovis's work in the past, and forgive me if the tune of that Disney song floats through my head: "It's a small world after all, it's--" Anyway. Josh's stuff was great; I was gnawing my nails to their roots at quite a few moments. He certainly deserves to be published.

 

Writing well and editing well both require a lot of discipline, perhaps more with the latter. That is why I am not a beta reader, haha.

[Procyon]

Writing well and editing well both require a lot of discipline, perhaps more with the latter. That is why I am not a beta reader, haha.

 

When you do it though, you do a great job. Editing, I mean, but writing too, harhar. However, I still think I'll join Tiff and Gary with the tomato gun there, it sounds so tempting...

[GaryK]

When you do it though, you do a great job. Editing, I mean, but writing too, harhar. However, I still think I'll join Tiff and Gary with the tomato gun there, it sounds so tempting...

I guess someone should get prepared to be pelted!

[Procyon]

(That does bring to mind the validity of the term 'final draft'... if it's final, why's it still a draft? Sorry, not an English major here.)

 

It's because it's the point where you give up, not where it's actually finished. It's still just a draft, you just give it to someone else to fix, such as a publisher (hahaha hooopefully) and you're so sick of it that you don't want to see it until it's on display in a bookshop window. Yes, it'll happen. Really!

 

P.S. Gary where did you get the tomato-dodging smiley?? I can't find it!

Edited March 16, 2008 by Procyon White

[GaryK]

P.S. Gary where did you get the tomato-dodging smiley?? I can't find it!

It's from my own forum. I'll be glad to offer the whole collection to GA if Joe wants it.

[Tiff]

It's because it's the point where you give up, not where it's actually finished. It's still just a draft, you just give it to someone else to fix, such as a publisher (hahaha hooopefully) and you're so sick of it that you don't want to see it until it's on display in a bookshop window. Yes, it'll happen. Really!

 

P.S. Gary where did you get the tomato-dodging smiley?? I can't find it!

That's a good explanation. I was actually trying to think of an answer to that, but couldn't come up with one. Very good indeed.

 

 

It's from my own forum. I'll be glad to offer the whole collection to GA if Joe wants it.

I was gonna say! That's an awesome emoticon thingy or whatever you call it. I was thinking: that is so appropriate for our 'tomato gun discussion!' And I loved the face and how unexpected that tomato in the face was. I could nearly hear the 'Squish.'

 

Maybe we should mention it to Joe; it can be used whenever a reader wants to nudge-nudge the writer to adjust their plotlines.

[GaryK]

That's a good explanation. I was actually trying to think of an answer to that, but couldn't come up with one. Very good indeed.

 

 

 

I was gonna say! That's an awesome emoticon thingy or whatever you call it. I was thinking: that is so appropriate for our 'tomato gun discussion!' And I loved the face and how unexpected that tomato in the face was. I could nearly hear the 'Squish.'

 

Maybe we should mention it to Joe; it can be used whenever a reader wants to nudge-nudge the writer to adjust their plotlines.

Thanks. Yeah I thought it was appropriate too; both here and in mellicat's forum.

 

For the nudge-nudge thing I prefer...

 

I've made it known if Joe wants all the smileys in my collection he's welcome to them. They're all smileys I've collected for a model car forum one of my best friends and I have been running for ten years.

[corvus]

At long last (actually it was only like two weeks or something) Mike and Winston is completely uploaded. Please everyone read it. I'm not one of those people who say all feedback is appreciated and shirk at criticism. So do read, do review, and do enjoy.

[GaryK]

deleted

Edited March 18, 2008 by GaryInMiami

[Tiff]

At long last (actually it was only like two weeks or something) Mike and Winston is completely uploaded. Please everyone read it. I'm not one of those people who say all feedback is appreciated and shirk at criticism. So do read, do review, and do enjoy.

No kidding, you posted it rather quickly. Good, because I'm so impatient and it wasn't a very long series. I get antsy. Anyway, I read this last night, but I couldn't post anything because I needed time to process the story. It was written well, but it didn't leave a good feeling in my gut; it was sad and had loose ends, and it's still in my head!

 

I knew Winston had backed out and I hated how he left without even looking or speaking to Mike, just completely ignoring him. I guess it was hard for him to admit that he was doing the wrong thing, and he probably did know it too, but having Mike badgering him didn't help matters.

 

Mike's desperation to fix Winston's future problem was kinda heartbreaking; he knew what it was like to have a parent cheating and he didnt want that for Winston's kid or Michelle to get hurt, like his own mother.

 

Why did Mike's father out him? What a jerk...he should have let Mike tell her. Although her reaction was sad and very emotional, it seems promising. She's in denial at first, but if they talk more, I think she will accept him, in time, because she clearly loves him. Mike is closest to her and there is a strong bond between them, even though Mike dreads coming home.

 

The nice thing was that Dan isn't homophobic and that they can have a good living situation. Except that Mike still has feelings for him, but maybe in time he can learn to control that.

 

I still hope there will be some kind of sequel....that there will be a nice happy ending for Mike or things improve where he doesn't feel so lost and lonely.

 

Oh and another heartbreaking scene- Mike crying at the end because he couldn't hold it in.

 

I LOVED this story, but I almost wish I didn't read it because even just talking about it in this forum is making me sad.

[GaryK]

I know how you feel Tiff. I still can't get it out of my head. I still haven't been able to write a review. I need more time to check my wits about me. The last few chapters were such a swirl of emotion. My only regret is there was little if any proofreading or editing in these last chapters. It didn't ruin the story. But my editor's eye had a hard time getting past them. I have other reasons too but I'll deal with them via PM.

[YaP]

I agree with both of you. I was still thinking about the story days after i read the last chapter. But i take that as a good sign I like that it is "not the usual" story, and "not the usual" happy end. A story that makes you think, and that lasts for a while.

So, lets all try to convince Corvus to write a sequel at some time. I'd like to see how Winston is dealing with this new situation. Will he finally come out to his wife at some time ? Which wouldn't necessarily mean that he has to get a divorce and leave his wife and kid behind... Will Mike find someone special to share his life ? With all the complications that come with that... yea, i see a lot of potential for a sequel

*nudges Corvus*

[Tiff]

I know how you feel Tiff. I still can't get it out of my head. I still haven't been able to write a review. I need more time to check my wits about me. The last few chapters were such a swirl of emotion. My only regret is there was little if any proofreading or editing in these last chapters. It didn't ruin the story. But my editor's eye had a hard time getting past them. I have other reasons too but I'll deal with them via PM.

It was tough wrapping my mind around this story and I might need a few days before I come back to this forum to rant my thoughts. This story just really got to me, period. I can't even express everything, no matter how hard I tried.

 

Actually, even from the very beginning, the chapters were emotional, although subtle- like Mike's loneliness and unhappiness with his family, or how everything rubbed off on him. It seems each chapter seemed to get more and more emotional or would unravel your insides until you felt queasy. You know? That's how I feel- a churning stomach.

 

 

I agree with both of you. I was still thinking about the story days after i read the last chapter. But i take that as a good sign I like that it is "not the usual" story, and "not the usual" happy end. A story that makes you think, and that lasts for a while.

So, lets all try to convince Corvus to write a sequel at some time. I'd like to see how Winston is dealing with this new situation. Will he finally come out to his wife at some time ? Which wouldn't necessarily mean that he has to get a divorce and leave his wife and kid behind... Will Mike find someone special to share his life ? With all the complications that come with that... yea, i see a lot of potential for a sequel

*nudges Corvus*

 

I love that this story is unqiue in that it isn't very long, nothing is overdone or drawn out, but it's truncated(right word choice?), simple. Like flashbacks of the past only occur in certain areas and there isn't too much descriptions, so that it never gets boring.

 

The fact that it's not your typical happy story with a wonderful cheesy ending definitely makes it more memorable, but god help me, I am such a sucker for happy endings. I wish I could write something that makes the reader think and feel, empathize and sympathize, and maybe even hurt, but I don't have Corvus's talents.

 

I think a sequel is necessary. The ending felt like a sucker punch to the gut! It hurt. I can't get the whole Mike chasing Winston to the train, or him yelling for him to call, or even him crying at the end.

 

Seriously, Corvus just kung-fued me through his writing. I'm sore and in pain.

[GaryK]

I can't get the whole Mike chasing Winston to the train, or him yelling for him to call, or even him crying at the end.

I'm 51 years old, but I read this story from Mike's point of view because I prefer older men. So I can totally relate to what Mike's going through with Winston and why he did what he did at the end. That's part of what I liked about this story so much. Also, I'm so tired of happy endings. This was a much more realistic ending even if I am still in emotional knots about it two days later.

 

Also, the more I think about it the more I'm convinced there shouldn't be a sequel. This story will be a GA classic and it will be able to stand on its own for many years to come. All it needs is some editing to clean it up and it'll shine like it should.

[Tiff]

I'm 51 years old, but I read this story from Mike's point of view because I prefer older men. So I can totally relate to what Mike's going through with Winston and why he did what he did at the end. That's part of what I liked about this story so much. Also, I'm so tired of happy endings. This was a much more realistic ending even if I am still in emotional knots about it two days later.

 

Also, the more I think about it the more I'm convinced there shouldn't be a sequel. This story will be a GA classic and it will be able to stand on its own for many years to come. All it needs is some editing to clean it up and it'll shine like it should.

Happy endings are overrated, I definitely agree with you on that. Realism, even if it hurts and is ugly, well, it's real.

 

Although I would love a sequel for my own selfish well-being, this story can totally stand on its own and everyone who reads it will remember it because of how it really hits you to your core.

 

Great story, great story.....sigh....still thinking about it.

[corvus]

As much as an apology might be in order for Gary's emotional knots and the kung fu-ing that occurred to Tiff, I really can't, because it's what I intended from the beginning. Still, I hadn't expected such a strong response -- and I'm quite pleased for it. Tickled, in fact.

 

There certainly is potential for a sequel, but -- sorry YaP, Tiff -- I don't think I'm going to write one. Maybe when I'm 30 and have more life experience, I'll be able to come back and do Mike and Winston justice, but at this point, a sequel would be gratuitous. (I'll also see if M&W has indeed become a GA classic, Gary, as you've prophesized.)

 

The ending to M&W certainly isn't happy, but IMO, it's not really depressing either. I think Mike's in a better place at the end of the story than he was in the beginning. There's no doubt that he's changed, and I think the change was for the better. As for Winston... it's very sad, and sadder than Mike's situation by far when you think about it. Who knows how many Winstons there are out there? I was partly inspired to write M&W after reading an article in which the writer interviewed a married, closeted father who did exactly what Winston did -- go on craig's list and have one night (or lunch) stands. The guy's acceptance of his whole situation and his unwillingness to even think about it were pretty chilling. The article is linked somewhere on GA but I can't find it now. In any case, it makes people like our own Graeme highly exceptional.

 

So yeah, those are my little author's notes, which I can finally reveal. Haha.

 

M&W is done except for the editing, which Gary has kindly volunteered to help me with, and whose expertise I shall be relying on. I swear I'm half dyslexic. :wacko: Also, I'm going to start a new story soon -- I think I want to try to write something less "gut-wrenching" for a change, which would be the first time in more than four years, and I want to try first person, which I've *never* done before. It'll be exciting. (Yes Tiff... POV inspiration is a two way street!)

 

Thanks, again, for reading and reviewing! You guys are great. I confess I was probably as emotionally wrecked as you guys were when I posted the last two chapters and saw that there were, like, no reviews for the first six hours... (Yes I have a life! I do. *nod*)

[Tiff]

Rule number one of writing: never feel the need to apologize. If this is the direction/ending you intended from the beginning, then it's your story and it will remain that way. I know sometimes readers responses can get to you; it has to me in the past, but now I've learned that not everyone will be happy with what you write. I guess as long as you, the author is, then that's all the matters. Good for you!

 

I agree with Gary, it will be a GA classic. Maybe it needs more promotion or whatever, but it can be a classic. It's not a very long series, but you managed to pack a lot in so little. Well done.

 

Winston's situation is definitely very sad. You portrayed him very well, in very small and brief snippets, showing how unhappy he is, but willing to live a lie, or unwilling to live the truth. Again, well done.

 

Yay for starting a new story! Double YAY for something less "gut-wrenching." I don't think I can handle anymore of this emotional roller-coasters. I think I've developed an ulcer! LOL. POV inspiration indeed. I think first person is sooo easy! I guess we're the exact opposite. I tried writing in third person a few days ago, but I messed up the pronouns, because I went back into my habit of first. :wacko:

 

You are so funny! You were worried when you didn't see a review?? Really? Reviews are never that instaneous, are they? Anyway, I read the two newest chapters ASAP, but then again, I felt sucker punched, so I needed time to recover, as did Gary. But we persevered and here we are talking about it. I guess that makes us true and dedicated fans.

 

We'll probably be your biggest cheerleaders from now on. I'll be on the lookout for future stories from you.

 

Btw, I read in another forum thread that you played instruments- the piano and something else? How Asian of you!!! You're not a banana then! Liar!!!!

 

I've been called Twinkie. Twinkie Tiff.

[YaP]

Although I would love a sequel for my own selfish well-being, this story can totally stand on its own and everyone who reads it will remember it because of how it really hits you to your core.

 

Thats what I meant when i wrote that the ending is "open" to a sequel, but does not require one. Lol, there is a reason why I am NOT an author, struggling too much with putting my thoughts into words (especially in a foreign language). It doesn't leave "lose ends" that _need_ to be picked up in a sequel, even though it does leave some things open. Which makes it in my opinion a really good ending... fitting to the story. Icing on the cake

 

Yay for starting a new story!

 

Hear! Hear!

[Procyon]

No kidding, you posted it rather quickly. Good, because I'm so impatient and it wasn't a very long series. I get antsy. Anyway, I read this last night, but I couldn't post anything because I needed time to process the story. It was written well, but it didn't leave a good feeling in my gut; it was sad and had loose ends, and it's still in my head!

 

For me it's almost the opposite way around; on the surface the ending was very sad, especially for Winston, although it's easy to forget that he probably did have a longing for a child that was real, or he wouldn't have said the things he said in earlier chapters, and secondly he didn't really want to come out in the first place, his hesitation was so much greater than Mike's. But yeah, a dreary married life for him in the long run with all the complications that would most likely arise, and then possibly a painful divorce where his kid or kids would get hurt, etc. Very sad for everyone involved...

 

But Mike -- he grew so much, and his life changed so much during these few weeks, and most of it was good for him. He wasn't really in love with Winston, although, of course, they were close in a special way both because of the sex and because of what they knew about each other. But in the last chapter there were so many possibilities opening for Mike -- moving in with Dan, and the fact that he'd come out to both him and his mother (and father). I often find open endings frustrating but this is one of the few exceptions -- it was really satisfying. In the beginning Mike was alone and hiding, at the end he had a friend with beautiful eyebrows and he didn't have to hide anymore from the people who mattered to him.

[Tiff]

For me it's almost the opposite way around; on the surface the ending was very sad, especially for Winston, although it's easy to forget that he probably did have a longing for a child that was real, or he wouldn't have said the things he said in earlier chapters, and secondly he didn't really want to come out in the first place, his hesitation was so much greater than Mike's. But yeah, a dreary married life for him in the long run with all the complications that would most likely arise, and then possibly a painful divorce where his kid or kids would get hurt, etc. Very sad for everyone involved...

 

But Mike -- he grew so much, and his life changed so much during these few weeks, and most of it was good for him. He wasn't really in love with Winston, although, of course, they were close in a special way both because of the sex and because of what they knew about each other. But in the last chapter there were so many possibilities opening for Mike -- moving in with Dan, and the fact that he'd come out to both him and his mother (and father). I often find open endings frustrating but this is one of the few exceptions -- it was really satisfying. In the beginning Mike was alone and hiding, at the end he had a friend with beautiful eyebrows and he didn't have to hide anymore from the people who mattered to him.

The whole Winston thing makes me feel sad. I don't really see a happy life for him, if he's trying to live a straight life and raise a family, when he really rather be with men. I don't know how it would be personally, but if you're living a lie, then how happy or fulfilling can one's life be?

 

Mike, things did get better for him, that's for sure.

 

LOL- I love your eyebrow comment. You're right, Dan had hot eyebrows that Mike liked. And he was cool with the gay thing. So there are possibiltiies for growth and as for coming out, that was definitely a burden off his shoulders. And his mother will come around. It seems promising on that front.

 

This does have an open ending and most times it never bothers me. This doesn't bother me either, except that it makes me...well...hurt!

[GaryK]

M&W is done except for the editing, which Gary has kindly volunteered to help me with, and whose expertise I shall be relying on.

Thanks for mentioning that. I thought you had forgotten. I'll start working on it right away.

 

I agree with Gary, it will be a GA classic. Maybe it needs more promotion or whatever, but it can be a classic. It's not a very long series, but you managed to pack a lot in so little. Well done.

Once he's done a few more stories I think he'll warrant at least Promising Author status. Hopefully Hosted Author status. As for promotion, put a link to Mike & Winston in your signature. I do that for the authors I really respect.

 

You are so funny! You were worried when you didn't see a review?? Really? Reviews are never that instaneous, are they? Anyway, I read the two newest chapters ASAP, but then again, I felt sucker punched, so I needed time to recover, as did Gary. But we persevered and here we are talking about it. I guess that makes us true and dedicated fans.

Yeah, sucker punched. That defines exactly how I felt, Tiff. And that, I suspect, happened to a lot of readers which is why there were no immediate reviews as has been the case with earlier chapters.

 

Anyway, I finally did a review. I try not to put any spoilers in my reviews and just let the stars speak for themselves. Hope your tests go well corvus.

[Tiff]

Hey Gary, do you have an emoticon thing for 'sucker-punched?' That's something that's necessary for all stories that give you an emotional POW!

 

If we can't express our review or feelings through words because the story has rendered us speechless, we can just use that and it basically explains it all....until we're ready to talk.

 

And you're definitely right: Corvus will get Promising Status when he writes another series or something. He has the talent.

[GaryK]

Hey Gary, do you have an emoticon thing for 'sucker-punched?' That's something that's necessary for all stories that give you an emotional POW!

 

If we can't express our review or feelings through words because the story has rendered us speechless, we can just use that and it basically explains it all....until we're ready to talk.

 

And you're definitely right: Corvus will get Promising Status when he writes another series or something. He has the talent.

I have an emoticon for nearly everything, Tiff.

 

Hey corvus, this is what you did to your loyal readers...

[Duncan Ryder]

Lovely slice of life story. Real and immediate and touching; the sadness that makes you feel so...disconnected at that age.

[Tiger]

I just read the entire story last night. I really liked it. Great job! You'll hear more from me about it in due course