Video Games are Toys! Let's Give them ALL to Children!

[PatrickOBrien]

I posted this in my blog, but figured it might be a good debate starter for the forums.

 

Okay now, I've been reading some interesting articles online, and feel the need to put my two cents in. I don't know, maybe I'm the stupid one, but to me, the truth of the matter is so glaringly obvious that I can't help but wonder, what is wrong with people?

 

Grand Theft Auto IV.

 

The media is going, and will more than likely continue to go crazy over the violence in this video game. People who continue to trash Rockstar Games for releasing such a violent game, because they don't believe children should be playing it. The funny thing to me is, Rockstar Games is on the exact same page as they are. That's why the game is rated "M" for "Mature", as in, 18 and up. Last time I checked, 18 years old is not a child.

 

I'm not naiive enough to think a simple rating on the cover of a game is going to stop kids from doing anything. The problem with this whole situation is the fact that, in general, parents are stupid when it comes to what their kids do for entertainment. They think, "Oh, it's just a video game, it's harmless." If you're a parent out there and thinking that same thought, slap yourself and get it out of your head. An "M" rated game is NOT for children. Porn is for people 18 and up, and you wouldn't DREAM of giving it to a minor, so why would you give an "M" rated game to one?

 

People need to leave Rockstar alone. They've done what's been asked, and that's rated their game according to its content. When was the last time you saw an "R" rated movie get the kind of negative press this game has gotten? Simple truth is, you haven't. If GTA was a movie, it would be winning all kinds of awards, and get nothing but accolades in the press. Just ten minutes ago, I read that Jack Thompson, a Florida attorney (read his wikipedia article, he's basically against the first amendment, lol) is referring to the game as a "Cop Killing Simulation Game". What a load of total horse manure. I just can't stand it when people in positions of power say things like that, having never played the games themselves.

 

Ugh, my point is simply this. The only reason it's getting the negative press that it is, is because it's Grand Theft Auto. There was a game that came out for the X-Box 360 called "Saint's Row", which is for all intents and purposes, a clone of GTA. But I'll bet that unless you're a gamer, you've never heard of it. In "Halo 3", highest selling game of all time (for now, GTA IV is probably going to take that title), you kill thousands upon thousands of aliens, and in the online multiplayer, human opponents, but it's never criticized for being violent. Hell, technically Mario is cruel to animals. He goes around killing turtles and...weird little brown mushroom people when all they're doing is pacing back and forth, yet his games are marketed specifically for children.

 

CRAZY!

 

O_o

Edited May 5, 2008 by wrathofmagneto

[Razor]

It's not about being eighteen, it's about maturity level. I would let my kid play/watch/read anything if I thought they were mature enough to handle it and remember that there is a line between fiction and reality. Porn is fine, just remember that it's an overinflated and incorrect representation of sex, and you will most likely never be doing anyone who would make it as a pro porn star. Everybody has some flaws... some guys have rosacea on their chest/back, some have other things, and nearly every single penis is different and doesn't quite measure up to porn star standards. Real life means that you go to jail forever for doing the shit you do in GTA.

 

Point is, it's a GAME. It's FICTION. People should grow up and realize this. Parents should judge their own kids' maturity and act accordingly. It's not the video game company's problem, it's the parents' problem. Jeez, take some damn responsibility instead of pawning it off on everyone else because you don't wanna do your job.

 

~shrug~ That's what I think, anyway. And I'm right on this one, I am absolutely certain. Parents should raise their kids properly so they don't have to worry about a violent video game influencing them to a great extent.

[Tiger]

I agree. I, for one, have played the game. Yes, I enjoy the violence, but who doesn't? I'm an adult, and I happen to love gaming. I have been an avid game since before it was fashionable. I agree with Jamie about maturity level. If a person is capable of discerning truth from reality, then he or she should be able to play violent video games without a problem. I remember there was a s**t storm over GTA: San Andreas because of "hot coffee". "Hot coffee" was not even that graphic. It was more humorous than anything. Also, the code for "hot coffee" was hidden and there was a special way to access it.

[Drewbie]

Right, Parents need to decide if there kid can handle it, many in media, in politics, games are an easy target, to try to get banned, and none of them really do a study, or look into it, it makes them feel good when they take on the gaming industry, instead of taking on real issues.

 

 

it's also a good stress reliever. believe it not it can give you some other skills not really to kill, but other ones, keeps you thinking.

[Graeme]

I agree with everything that's been said above.

 

To put a different spin on things, there's this evil thing called the Cartoon Network that my boys were introduced to on our recent USA trip. One of the cartoons they watched was Tom and Jerry. Talk about violent!

 

Er... wait. Tom and Jerry is one of the cartoons I grew up on. Another one was the coyote and roadrunner cartoons, where that poor coyote is blown up, smashed, and dumped off cliff after cliff.

 

If you seriously go back and watch the old shows from the 60s and 70s, you'll find a lot of things that, by some standards, kids shouldn't get to see -- but we did. Kids generally have a healthy understanding of the difference between reality and fiction, and we shouldn't try to over-control what they see and do.

 

Having said that, before we went to to the USA, my six-year-old's view of what happened in America was dictated by The Simpson's episodes....

[Drewbie]

Lol, also though alot of hte old cartoons are now censored, esp where they get blown up boo.

[Lugh]

ok.. in two camps here...

 

first -- parents should monitor what their children see/do/play more closely

 

BUT

 

second -- the people who sell video games should treat the labels like other items geared at the 18+ crowd and not sell them to minors without parental consent.

 

My son will be turning 13 this week, he keeps reminding me that he is now OLD enough for the "T for teen" rated games, a concept the clerk at the local game store found extremely humorous when DC asked for a "T for teen" rated game just after christmas.. and I told him he wasn't a teen so put it back. The clerk actually said to me... most the kids who buy that game are his age (now DC looks younger than turning 13 -- been accused of being 11 recently). I personally don't care what the other kids are doing.. my house, my rules.. DC knows this and he put the game back and didn't bring it up again, until recently. I am one of the parents who rely on the game ratings to help determine if it's appropraite as I don't play them... but how many other parents have a clue? the clerk's attitude makes me wonder.

[AFriendlyFace]

I posted this in my blog, but figured it might be a good debate starter for the forums.

 

Okay now, I've been reading some interesting articles online, and feel the need to put my two cents in. I don't know, maybe I'm the stupid one, but to me, the truth of the matter is so glaringly obvious that I can't help but wonder, what is wrong with people?

 

Grand Theft Auto IV.

 

The media is going, and will more than likely continue to go crazy over the violence in this video game. People who continue to trash Rockstar Games for releasing such a violent game, because they don't believe children should be playing it. The funny thing to me is, Rockstar Games is on the exact same page as they are. That's why the game is rated "M" for "Mature", as in, 18 and up. Last time I checked, 18 years old is not a child.

 

I'm not naiive enough to think a simple rating on the cover of a game is going to stop kids from doing anything. The problem with this whole situation is the fact that, in general, parents are stupid when it comes to what their kids do for entertainment. They think, "Oh, it's just a video game, it's harmless." If you're a parent out there and thinking that same thought, slap yourself and get it out of your head. An "M" rated game is NOT for children. Porn is for people 18 and up, and you wouldn't DREAM of giving it to a minor, so why would you give an "M" rated game to one?

 

People need to leave Rockstar alone. They've done what's been asked, and that's rated their game according to its content. When was the last time you saw an "R" rated movie get the kind of negative press this game has gotten? Simple truth is, you haven't. If GTA was a movie, it would be winning all kinds of awards, and get nothing but accolades in the press. Just ten minutes ago, I read that Jack Thompson, a Florida attorney (read his wikipedia article, he's basically against the first amendment, lol) is referring to the game as a "Cop Killing Simulation Game". What a load of total horse manure. I just can't stand it when people in positions of power say things like that, having never played the games themselves.

 

Ugh, my point is simply this. The only reason it's getting the negative press that it is, is because it's Grand Theft Auto. There was a game that came out for the X-Box 360 called "Saint's Row", which is for all intents and purposes, a clone of GTA. But I'll bet that unless you're a gamer, you've never heard of it. In "Halo 3", highest selling game of all time (for now, GTA IV is probably going to take that title), you kill thousands upon thousands of aliens, and in the online multiplayer, human opponents, but it's never criticized for being violent. Hell, technically Mario is cruel to animals. He goes around killing turtles and...weird little brown mushroom people when all they're doing is pacing back and forth, yet his games are marketed specifically for children.

 

CRAZY!

 

O_o

 

 

It's not about being eighteen, it's about maturity level. I would let my kid play/watch/read anything if I thought they were mature enough to handle it and remember that there is a line between fiction and reality. Porn is fine, just remember that it's an overinflated and incorrect representation of sex, and you will most likely never be doing anyone who would make it as a pro porn star. Everybody has some flaws... some guys have rosacea on their chest/back, some have other things, and nearly every single penis is different and doesn't quite measure up to porn star standards. Real life means that you go to jail forever for doing the shit you do in GTA.

 

Point is, it's a GAME. It's FICTION. People should grow up and realize this. Parents should judge their own kids' maturity and act accordingly. It's not the video game company's problem, it's the parents' problem. Jeez, take some damn responsibility instead of pawning it off on everyone else because you don't wanna do your job.

 

~shrug~ That's what I think, anyway. And I'm right on this one, I am absolutely certain. Parents should raise their kids properly so they don't have to worry about a violent video game influencing them to a great extent.

Personally, I agree with every word of the above two posts.

 

 

I agree. I, for one, have played the game. Yes, I enjoy the violence, but who doesn't? I'm an adult, and I happen to love gaming. I have been an avid game since before it was fashionable.

Well, since you asked, I didn't care for the violence or the content the few times a friend talked me into playing the original GTA and GTA 2, a few years ago. I'm assuming I'd be even less inclined to like GTA 4 since undoubtedly the graphics and violence are enhanced and since my own tolerance for violence in entertainment has significantly decreased over the years.

 

However, that said I'm all for you playing the game and having a good time; I just mentioned this because you asked

 

I agree with everything that's been said above.

 

To put a different spin on things, there's this evil thing called the Cartoon Network that my boys were introduced to on our recent USA trip. One of the cartoons they watched was Tom and Jerry. Talk about violent!

 

Er... wait. Tom and Jerry is one of the cartoons I grew up on. Another one was the coyote and roadrunner cartoons, where that poor coyote is blown up, smashed, and dumped off cliff after cliff.

 

If you seriously go back and watch the old shows from the 60s and 70s, you'll find a lot of things that, by some standards, kids shouldn't get to see -- but we did. Kids generally have a healthy understanding of the difference between reality and fiction, and we shouldn't try to over-control what they see and do.

 

Having said that, before we went to to the USA, my six-year-old's view of what happened in America was dictated by The Simpson's episodes....

Actually, while I agree with you to some extent about older cartoons and many of the ones from my early childhood, I think that there's a considerable and disturbing trend for modern day cartoons to be, what I at least, would consider to be too gross and immature. I felt this way about a large contingent of the ones from my own childhood (even when I was a kid) as well. Some of the ones from my childhood were 'ok', other's were just stupid, gross, and disturbing. Nowadays, almost all the ones I come across peripherally seem to be of the later ilk, but I concede that if I were actually still a kid actively watching and searching out cartoons I'd probably still find a sizable decent population.

 

Anyway, I'll probably still let my kids watch standard, contemporary children's cartoons since I do just find them gross, stupid, and immature as opposed to 'poison' or something, but I confess I'd much rather them be watching the 'classics' and I'll probably try to steer them in that direction (doubt it'll work though).

 

ok.. in two camps here...

 

first -- parents should monitor what their children see/do/play more closely

 

BUT

 

second -- the people who sell video games should treat the labels like other items geared at the 18+ crowd and not sell them to minors without parental consent.

 

My son will be turning 13 this week, he keeps reminding me that he is now OLD enough for the "T for teen" rated games, a concept the clerk at the local game store found extremely humorous when DC asked for a "T for teen" rated game just after christmas.. and I told him he wasn't a teen so put it back. The clerk actually said to me... most the kids who buy that game are his age (now DC looks younger than turning 13 -- been accused of being 11 recently). I personally don't care what the other kids are doing.. my house, my rules.. DC knows this and he put the game back and didn't bring it up again, until recently. I am one of the parents who rely on the game ratings to help determine if it's appropraite as I don't play them... but how many other parents have a clue? the clerk's attitude makes me wonder.

That's an excellent point.

 

I'll try to be an involved parent who 'does his homework', but for the most part I'm sure I'll be relying on content labels as well. They're pointless if the clerks (or other parents) ignore them and allow my kids access anyway.

 

This isn't a big issue for me in the first place. I'll probably be fine with allowing my 15 or 16 year old to play games with an M label because as long as the teens are mature and do know the difference between fantasy and reality I don't see much of a point with trying to hide all things with sexual or violent content from them (especially since if they want to find such things it won't be hard to do at that age anyway). I think the most important thing by the time they reach middle to late teens is teaching them that movies and video games don't equal real life, and instilling in them a respect for other people's bodies (rather their urges are to jump that person's bones or break them).

 

Just my thoughts,

Kevin

Edited May 5, 2008 by AFriendlyFace

[ashessnow]

It's Not Just About Killing Hookers Anymore

http://www.slate.com/id/2190207/

[Dalmatia]

Well I

[Benji]

Well I

[Tiger]

.........Ok, my take is going to be a little different, and probaly get met with disdain! But one reason I did not install a computer in our home was because of these "games", my kids were spending way too much time playing. I told to go outside and run around or do something.

That doesn't mean that Mom and Dad shouldn't be able to have a computer of their own. I can understand wanting your kids to do something other than playing video games.

[Benji]

That doesn't mean that Mom and Dad shouldn't be able to have a computer of their own. I can understand wanting your kids to do something other than playing video games.

 

 

.......Well, Dad has one, I mean now, but I really don't use it much!

[greenmann]

Well, if you could count on parents to actually "do their job" as you say, then this debate wouldn't really be necessary, and quite possibly, games like this wouldn't spiral into the kinds of violence we are seeing now.

 

And I have to say this, I have watched halo, and a bit of GTA (dunno nor care which version, personally it left me feelign rather sick to my stomach) and one of the major differences between these games and the old cartoons, is the realism with which the violence is shown.

 

Tom and Jerry would never survive a half hour if the kinds of things they do to each other if they were shown more realistically, but its all shown with swirling stars and a wink and a nod. There is a tacit understanding that the violence is slap stick comedy, not real. You even get people arguing over whether or not Tom and Jerry LIKE each other. The same could be said of most of the old slapstick comedy, including things like Laurel and Hardy, the Three Stooges, etc.

 

But these new games, and some of the cartoons too, have an oddly stylized, but still realistic portrayal of the violence- you shoot something and blood splatters all over the place, bodies scream and writh in pain as the car hits them... this is not at all comical, not portrayed as an escape from reality, its portrayed as an alternate reality. In the hero cartoons when I was growing up, things would get blown up, and the heroes and villains would punch and fight each other, but nothing more than torn clothing was ever shown. These video games are such a drastic change from that more innocent portrayal of violence its like night and day.

 

It's also very different to WATCH a violent cartoon and be entertained vicariously through the actions of those on the screen, and physically DIRECT that violence with your charecter, shooting at or driving over the enemy and getting rewarded for your kills with virtual points. Studies have shown that the two forms of entertainment are VERY different, especially in developing brains. Once those connections are made, they are extremely difficult to break. Brain wave patterns for kids watching cartoons are very different than those playing video games, you can't really compare the two.

 

If an adult wants to play these games fine, but letting these get into the hands of especially young kids can be dangerous for their mental health. My sister is a kindergarten teacher. A year or two ago she had a kid in her class that all the other teachers in her day care center were warning her about before she even got him. As it turns out, his father thought it was fun to play halo with him, and let him play it on his own as well. The kid had very little in the way of social skills, partly because his answer to any argument was to fight his way through. When asked to do any kind of creative writing, art projects, any of that, his work was always about blowing something up, fighting and killing things. In recess if he didn't get the ball, someone was going to get punched, that kind of thing. During conferences, when the near constant violence was brought up, the father shrugged and more or less said "boys will be boys, what's wrong with that?" and dismissed the teachers worry that this kid was sliding into anti-social behavior.

 

So these kinds of games DO have an effect, and they may well affect you and your kids even if you never watch them yourself. I don't like censorship at all, but sometimes I do wonder if things like this kind of violence have a place in a "civilized" society.

[Graeme]

So these kinds of games DO have an effect, and they may well affect you and your kids even if you never watch them yourself. I don't like censorship at all, but sometimes I do wonder if things like this kind of violence have a place in a "civilized" society.

Be careful with cause and effect. Are these games really having much of an effect, or is it other things that are making the kids anti-social?

 

You, I think, hit the nail on the head when it comes to the parents. If the parents don't care, then the kids have to learn for themselves how they should react. Their peers are the primary source of instruction, if they parents don't do their job, and let's be honest -- young teens want to impress, especially young teen males. If it is cool to kill things and boast about how many monsters they blew up the previous night on Halo 3, then that's what they'll be doing. The games are a symptom, not the cause of the problem.

 

That's my view.

 

Our boys play some violent games (at one point one boy loved designing rollercoasters in Roller Coaster Tycoon 2, and having the coasters crash during testing....), but it is balanced with other play. I don't think they believe violence is the way to solve problems. Indeed, we come down heavily on them if we think they are too violent towards each other. As long as everything is in moderation and balance, I don't see a problem.

[greenmann]

Be careful with cause and effect. Are these games really having much of an effect, or is it other things that are making the kids anti-social?

 

I'm not so naive as to believe violent games are the only cause of such behavior, but I think a pretty strong, if circumstancial case could be made that they are a contributing factor in cases like the young kid I reffered to. My sister was constantly talking aobut how this kid basically obsessed over the violent aspects of the game. He would literally act out scenes from it in his play time. Maybe that's not normal, but it certainly is a fairly clear affect of playing the game.

 

And jsut as clearly, the attitude of the parents in this case was a huge influence on the child as well. Their inability to see it as a problem, and in some ways even encouraging the aggressive behavior by refusing to punish aggressive acting out, and calling it "cute", create an environment where there is no reason for the child to react otherwise. My sis is afraid this kid is a budding sociopath. It was literally that bad.

 

As long as everything is in moderation and balance, I don't see a problem.

 

And there is exactly the problem. "Balance" is key, but that is often a difficult thing for parents to achieve. The above is an extreme case for sure. But any teacher can tell you that 9 times out of 10, the problem child is one whose parents simply don't know or care enough to figure out how to cope with bad behavior. It's the "my little darling would never do that" response that is all too common.

 

Sometimes I think that parents should have to go through mandatory parenting classes... after all, to get a gun or drive a car you have to get licensed. Why not make people get licensed for perhaps the most important thing you will ever do in your life? But then, whose version of morality would you teach new parents? ANd really, thats probably the most important part of parenting, teaching morality and ethics. As a society we are slipping more and more into forcing teachers into this role (which is one of the reasons I think so many people are opting out and either home schooling or sending their kids to private schools). The problem with this is that the US is such a mongrel culture, with no clear religious or other cultural common denominator that everyone can agree on as "the" ultimate arbitor of morality. We can't even agree on what is politically correct half the time, lol. So those poor kids that aren't taught this stuff at home are taught the barest bones basics in the classroom, usually barely enough to get through school.

[Graeme]

I'm not so naive as to believe violent games are the only cause of such behavior, but I think a pretty strong, if circumstancial case could be made that they are a contributing factor in cases like the young kid I reffered to. My sister was constantly talking aobut how this kid basically obsessed over the violent aspects of the game. He would literally act out scenes from it in his play time. Maybe that's not normal, but it certainly is a fairly clear affect of playing the game.

 

And jsut as clearly, the attitude of the parents in this case was a huge influence on the child as well. Their inability to see it as a problem, and in some ways even encouraging the aggressive behavior by refusing to punish aggressive acting out, and calling it "cute", create an environment where there is no reason for the child to react otherwise. My sis is afraid this kid is a budding sociopath. It was literally that bad.

To use a sporting analogy, if you are physically unfit you can hurt yourself playing sport. That doesn't mean sport is at fault -- the error is in performing an activity that you are not suited for.

 

Violent games are largely a mental activity and if you are not mentally fit, you can hurt yourself. The activity is not at fault -- the error is in performing a mental activity (playing a violent game) that you are not suited or ready for.

 

When is a person ready for such a mental activity? It depends on the person, and for children it will depend on the training they've received from their peers, family and school.

 

Children acting out something they have seen (eg. on TV or at the movies), read or experiences is perfectly normal. My boys do it all the time (Transformers and Star Wars are the two main influences on them at the time). In your case, it sounds like the parents haven't provided the balance of other activities for the kid to experience, and so he's focused on the main thing he has experienced that he's enjoyed.

 

There is no doubt that the kid needs help, but the violent games are a symptom, not a cause. At least in my completely unqualified (apart from being a dad) opinion.

[greenmann]

Hmm, well I think you missed my meaning, at least in part. There is a difference between "acting out" in pretend, in play mode, and "acting out" by taking on the persona of the charecter you are acting as. One you can put on and take off like a pretend costume. The other is a deeper connection to the charecter, identifying yourself with that charecter. I used the term "obsessed" deliberately, it was not meant for dramatic effect.

 

And sure, both forms of acting out are in most cases normal behavior for young kids. You want them acting out various roles to learn how to handle different situations in a safe way. You even want them to emulate heroes and such (both "super" and otherwise; doctors and police, firemen and even mundane roles like dads, shop keepers etc...) This is normal healthy behavior most of hte time. Its also why these games are completely innappropriate for very young kids, since the violence is NOT the kind of behavior you want them identifying with and emulating.

 

So I will have to dissagree that the games aren't a causal affect in violent behavior in SOME kids (or adults for that matter). Not all, but some. And not the whole cause of violence, but certainly a contributing factor. I really don't think human behavior is so simplistic there is just one cause for most of our behavior.

 

And that is my completely unqualified opinion, lol.

[rknapp]

Any parents who say that video games are the root of child behavior need to have their children taken away from them. Parents are the root of child behavior, plain and simple. All children look up to their parents to determine what is right and what is wrong, so if the parent buys this sort of game for their eight-year-old they're basically telling them that the contents of the game are ok to repeat in real life.

 

Some people need to be realistic and understand that the ESRB didn't create a video game rating system for their health. Just like movie rating systems, security systems, etc., they're useless if they're ignored. Sure, some clerks are dumb enough to sell such games to people who are clearly too young, but I have yet to meet one. My sister still gets carded from time to time when she buys an M-rated video game and she doesn't at all look sixteen (M-rated games are for people who are 17+), she is actually 25 now.

 

As for the story about the violent kindergarten boy -- the game has absolutely positively NOTHING to do with the boys actions. It is entirely the fathers fault, as evidenced by his clear indifference to the boy's actions.

 

I have been playing these games for a long time and GTA is by far one of my favorite franchises. I play it largely to steal cars and break things. What's really entertaining in this latest installment is that if you hit a low wall at high speed you will fly through the windshield. It was hilarious the first time it happened! The other day I went to Blockbuster with a friend of mine and on the way out of the store, there was a group of high school punks pulling Jackass moves in a shopping cart (one guy sits in it while the other pushes him into a curb). When we got into my car and started to leave the other punks were approaching the guys messing around with the cart, laughing like the idiots they were. I was SO TEMPTED to just hit them with the car. Want to know a secret? Don't tell those fanatical absent-minded parents and politicians, but GTA was FAR from my mind when those thoughts occurred. I wanted to do that only because every single one of those shit heads was a drain on society with their Jackass-like antics. Particularly since they were shoving shopping carts around near my car.

[Dalmatia]

Tom and Jerry would never survive a half hour if the kinds of things they do to each other if they were shown more realistically, but its all shown with swirling stars and a wink and a nod. There is a tacit understanding that the violence is slap stick comedy, not real. You even get people arguing over whether or not Tom and Jerry LIKE each other. The same could be said of most of the old slapstick comedy, including things like Laurel and Hardy, the Three Stooges, etc.

 

I remember that they wanted to stop showing Tom and Jerry on Tv at one point because children were starting to do the stuff they saw on the show. So in that case isnt the cartoon violence just as bad? And at least GTA shouldnt be played be kids, it has 18 on it for a reason. That much cant be said about Tom and Jerry

 

Our boys play some violent games (at one point one boy loved designing rollercoasters in Roller Coaster Tycoon 2, and having the coasters crash during testing....), but it is balanced with other play. I don't think they believe violence is the way to solve problems. Indeed, we come down heavily on them if we think they are too violent towards each other. As long as everything is in moderation and balance, I don't see a problem.

 

I still build rollercoasters like that Accept I normaly open them with out a test run... I

[glomph]

When I was little, I heard about boys who were injured because they believed they could fly if they just wore a towel like a cape. I watched the Superman TV series all those years in the '50s, and it would have never occurred to me (or anybody I knew) to do that.

[AFriendlyFace]

As for the story about the violent kindergarten boy -- the game has absolutely positively NOTHING to do with the boys actions. It is entirely the fathers fault, as evidenced by his clear indifference to the boy's actions.

I'd have more or less agreed with that statement if it had simply been "The game has little to do with the boy's actions". However, I think it's very clear that while the father is indeed the root of the problem, and should indeed be the target for a solution, the game is still involved.

 

That's like the argument that people give regarding firearms, "guns don't kill people, people kill people." I certainly agree that the people are culpable, but again the fact remains that without the guns those people wouldn't have been shot.

 

Drunk driving accidents do have to do with cars. Yes, they have to do with irresponsible, reckless idiots, but cars are still involved.

 

The key here is "potentially dangerous item" + "stupid/careless/mean/crazy/psycho" = bad results

 

Yes, we've still definitely got a big problem with just the 2nd part of the equation, but I'm all for keeping the first part of the equation out of their hands.

 

I was SO TEMPTED to just hit them with the car. Want to know a secret? Don't tell those fanatical absent-minded parents and politicians, but GTA was FAR from my mind when those thoughts occurred. I wanted to do that only because every single one of those shit heads was a drain on society with their Jackass-like antics. Particularly since they were shoving shopping carts around near my car.

That's an unfair, overly critical statement IMO. Believe me, I wouldn't have enjoyed seeing them act like that either, and I'd be annoyed and disappointed if I found out my son was behaving in that fashion. However, if you're talking strictly about an economic and resource drain on society then almost all teens (and younger, as well as most of the very old) are a 'drain on society'. Yeah, they're acting dumb and not exercising good judgment, but nearly all individuals have done something like that in their lifetime (especially in their teens), to say that they should just be removed society strikes me as a bit too far since no one would then be allowed to 'grow up'. For all we know in 10-20 years those boys might be doctors, scientists, politicians, lawyers, etc.

 

I still build rollercoasters like that Accept I normaly open them with out a test run... I

[Demetz]

Last I heard Jack Thompson was banned from filing anything in florida anymore because no judge takes him seriously between his stupid crusade against video games and because his paranoia over some rival lawyer lead him to formally submit pornography to the public record. He's a sleezeball hack with a bullhorn and nothing more.

 

As for the games... I wouldn't go by the rating system for anything. Parents should spend some time and play the games themselves. My mom freaked out when I was playing Diablo and Diablo 2 as a young teenager because of the M sticker and apparently it was satanic. Apparently in that regard I was more mature than my mother because I was under no delusion that slaying demon-creatures and killing off an entity which called itself the lord of terror meant that I would be granted magical powers to use in real life and start committing mass murder, raising skeletons from the grave, casting curses and so forth........

[Tiger]

That's like the argument that people give regarding firearms, "guns don't kill people, people kill people." I certainly agree that the people are culpable, but again the fact remains that without the guns those people wouldn't have been shot.

That is true, but what would they use instead of guns? I've heard that there have been a few cases where people rob stores with needles. People who intend to commit crimes will do so whether or not they have guns or not. I think I'd rather be shot than stabbed repeatedly or bludgeoned to death with a baseball bat. People are always responsible for their own actions. Anyone with even below average intelligence knows that you cannot shoot a cop and not suffer severe consequences. The same can be said of visiting a hooker and then shooting him/her and leaving the corpse to take the money. Doing these things in GTA can have consequences, but I think most people understand that if you're "wasted" you don't come back to life after a hospital visit.

[JamesSavik]

It is sad but inevitable that many young people get terribly confused by our societies many mixed messages about violence. Watching television for any length of time, you are likely to see dozens or maybe even hundreds of cowboys/indians/drug dealers/thugs/terrorist acquire toe-tags. Watch the news and they are in fact doing it for real. It looks so easy to use a gun.

 

Sadly it takes a little living to discover that there are very few people who are worth the price of a bullet. Many are fit for killin' but none are worth the price in personal destruction.

 

With age, and more than a little meaness, I can reasonably say that it is much more satisfying to make your enemies miserable for a long time.