[AFriendlyFace] Giving Up by AFriendlyFace

[NickolasJames8]

A lot of authors benefit from criticism, but sometimes it's best to do so privately (like via PM or email). Just an observation.

[steph]

Excuse me, but how do you share a kiss *through* lips? And -- "mutually busted"? Are we talking about Al Capone or ghosts? I wouldn't object if this story were a parody, but since it doesn't seem to be one, I'm afraid this is simply writing that doesn't work. I don't know what you wanted from the reader, Kevin, but the response it elicited from me was a disbelieving choke.

Personally, I love Kevin's narrative voice, but I'm a sucker for engaging dialogue and when thoroughly engaged, tend to ignore some of the descriptions that might not make complete sense. I remember pausing at corvus' example, but dismissed it as quirky and funny and kept reading.

 

My biggest annoyance at this story was that it was sort of like watching a car wreck... I couldn't tear my eyes away, but I didn't really want to be reading it --which goes back to my comment on flow... I probably would have stopped reading if there were any downtime in the story. I still can't decide if I actually liked the story, but I know I enjoyed Kevin's dialogue.

 

 

A lot of authors benefit from criticism, but sometimes it's best to do so privately (like via PM or email). Just an observation.

I understand both your and corvus' points of view. I'm sure Kevin will speak up if he did not appreciate corvus' public criticism.

[AFriendlyFace]

A lot of authors benefit from criticism, but sometimes it's best to do so privately (like via PM or email). Just an observation.

Thanks, Nick, I really appreciate the support

 

I understand both your and corvus' points of view. I'm sure Kevin will speak up if he did not appreciate corvus' public criticism.

Of course I would speak up!

 

As a matter of fact, while as I said I really appreciate the support, and I also definitely agree with Nick that detailed criticism is often best done in private (you never know how the author will react unless he/she has mentioned it before). In my particular case I have no objection to it at all and actually really appreciated Corvus' thoughtful comments!

 

To adequately respond to Kevin's inquiries, I'll provide more commentary than did my previous review. It'll be a bit more frank (i.e. harsh), but, since I want people to respond honestly to what I write, I better not be a hypocrite and do the opposite.

Thanks Crovus, I too would be a massive hypocrite if I did take offense since not only did I directly ask for your further feedback on this, but I definitely always say (and mean) that I appreciate constructive criticism. Indeed, while I appreciated your first comment alot, I ultimately have to say that I find this one much more useful.

 

I read stories predominantly to be emotionally engaged and moved. Trevor and Greg's story didn't engage me very much because: a) I couldn't take the narrative voice seriously, and b ) I couldn't take the characters seriously.

 

Example of a):

 

Excuse me, but how do you share a kiss *through* lips? And -- "mutually busted"? Are we talking about Al Capone or ghosts? I wouldn't object if this story were a parody, but since it doesn't seem to be one, I'm afraid this is simply writing that doesn't work. I don't know what you wanted from the reader, Kevin, but the response it elicited from me was a disbelieving choke.

I'm glad you pointed this out, and also glad that Steph commented on it as well. I have a fairly 'colourful' style of describing things and I was genuinely unaware that this description was ill-fitted.

 

Personally, in an idiomatic sense, I think you can share a kiss through lips, but I think you can only do so if the lips have an adjective attached. I know that sounds weird but what I mean is:

 

"They shared a kiss through lips"

 

Sounds ridiculous to me. However:

 

"They shared a kiss through hungry lips"

"They shared a kiss through throbbing, desperate lips"

"They shared a kiss through lips which had been lonely for far too long"

 

All sound okay to me. I'd say that the style of "through mutually busted lips" is most similar to example number two. I know it seems ridiculous that I base the suitability of the idiom on whether or not there is an adjective/descriptive phrase attached to 'lips', but in terms of simply reading it and deciding whether it's acceptable or ridiculous, that is the criteria I used in this case.

 

However, I don't want my stories to only sound acceptable to me. You and Steph have both stated that that phrase stood out. Steph ultimately seems to have decided it was acceptable (please correct me, Steph, or feel free to add to the topic), but for you it obviously didn't work at all. I definitely need to know these sorts of things. I by no means am trying to argue that 'shared a kiss through mutually busted lips' is acceptable, only that it seemed acceptable to me. That's why it's so useful for people to comment on these things, otherwise I'd never have given it any thought at all.

 

You found "mutually busted" inappropriate as well? Why? Did you find the word 'busted' too colloquial?

 

That general style is definitely common for me to use - not just in writing but in speech as well. I routinely say things like "I'm similarly afflicted" if my friend is telling me about a cold or other ailment which I am also experiencing. Or I might say, "equally hungry", "correspondingly suitable", etc. So "mutually busted" (or 'mutually bloodied' if it's 'busted' that you object to) is definitely something I would naturally say and write.

 

However, here again, I try to inject flavour into my writing, but I don't want my characters and narration to sound exactly like me. In fact, I want my characters to be completely unique. In one recent chapter of BMAD I had Aaron use the word 'queue' because I'd already used 'line' in the same paragraph. I was very concerned that it would seem unrealistic or troublesome to the reader. I use words like 'queue' on occasion, but I'm aware that the average southern boy Aaron's age might not. Sharon and Tim didn't object though - in fact Tim complimented the use - so I decided it was ok and worked given Aaron's generally odd 'voice'.

 

But yeah, I definitely want to know about these sorts of things!

 

I've singled this out because it's an egregious example. But there's a lot of clumsiness throughout the story, such as the excessive and maudlin descriptions, the strange lack of commas (have you been talking to Gary??), etc. These, unfortunately, make me unable to take what's written seriously.

 

If you are readily able to supply other examples I'd love to hear them! I found the ones you mentioned quite useful and interesting.

 

Regarding the lack of commas, lol no Gary had nothing to do with that. I'm actually a bit surprised. I thought I would tend to stray more toward over over comma use rather than under. I think my informal, conversational style writing (forum posts for example) is definitely more comma-heavy than my 'formal' (or what passes for it) writing style. Regarding Gary, as I understand it he used to be a journalism editor; they're notorious for their minimalistic approach to comma usage. Perhaps I am subconsciously affected by this approach.

 

Do you find my forum posts to be spartan on commas? You've read some of my other work, right? Have you noticed this there as well?

 

This is definitely something I'll ask Sharon and Tim about. Have any of the rest of you guys found this to be the case?

 

 

Explanation of b ):

Trevor and Greg had lots of volcanic interactions. Lots of highs and lows, yes. But I never had a feeling that what I was reading involved real people interacting. I'll take the scene starting with Trevor's infidelity as my example. Firstly, Trevor's motivation would be feasible only if he were stupid, arrogant, or manipulative (or a combination of all three -- but given his dialogue, only the first is possible).

Only the first was possible? I definitely meant for him to be manipulative; indeed that was supposed to be one such example.

 

Stupid and arrogant are debatable, but not inappropriate by any means. (Well, I didn't intend for him to be 'stupid' in terms of intellect, but stupid in terms of judgment certainly)

 

Secondly, the mis en scene is unrealistic -- except in horribly corny TV serials, you'd notice if you were pouring out your heart in a supermarket. Thirdly, the dialogue ("I'll follow you anywhere!") would give anyone diabetes.

I didn't/don't find the scene particularly unrealistic. They were supposed to have been apart for a year (I believe it was a year, I'd have to check, but in any case it was their longest separation) and they were also supposed to have been pretty miserable and obsessed with each other the whole time. After a year of agony and obsession, I don't find it odd that they'd get carried away and create a scene in the supermarket. I particularly don't find it odd given that it's Trevor and Greg.

 

When I was in school one of the biggest laughs and most notable moments was when one of my female classmates removed her shirt in public. She was not trying to be an exhibitionist nor was she stupid. She was simply oblivious and focused on what she was doing, which was chatting intently with her friends. They were walking toward the locker room - where obviously they would be undressing - and she simply got a headstart without thinking about it.

 

Point is, if you're not a particularly self-conscious, introverted person AND you're focused on a more selective task, I think it's very easy to act socially inappropriate without being aware of it.

 

Another factor is that even if they were peripherally aware of their setting I don't think they would have particularly cared (Trevor certainly wouldn't have, Greg may have a bit I suppose *shrug*). I'm not one for making a scene in public, but I think their conversation was more important than simply following the rules of polite society. If I were miserable and I ran into someone and was faced with the opportunity to perhaps remove or lessen that misery (at least in my own mind), I hope I would be willing to knowingly create a scene if necessary, and I'm really not the kind of person who goes around causing scenes. Indeed I try to avoid them, but in my opinion what that boils down to is, "You're just buying groceries. This is my life we're talking about! Deal with it"

 

Objection a) is based on tenants of what I believe good writing should be; objection b ) is based on my personal taste.

Thanks Corvus, as I said I really appreciate your comments about 'a)' and please feel free to point out more if you think of any. I think they're definitely worth my attention and may indeed result in me deciding to write slightly differently.

 

Regarding 'b )', I also appreciate hearing your opinions, but I'm afraid I do agree that it's just your personal taste and I'm less likely to change my writing as a result of it. However, I'd love to hear more thoughts you might have about it, and I'd love to hear from anyone else (and obviously if it's universally thought that this sucks I would consider changing it!)

 

Hmm. I'll refrain on the entertaining bit. You did portray a controversial and atypical relationship, but I didn't think about whether the characters should be together, because I was more concerned with how I'd review the story frankly without being... mean.

Well don't worry about that for my stories! I appreciate the review and I'm sorry if you felt you had to censor yourself in the first place.

 

I couldn't imagine myself being as melodramatic as either Trevor or Greg, so I didn't put myself in their shoes. The closest I came to considering the relationshippy questions you aimed for the reader to think about was to be aghast at how similar Trevor's words were to my ex's. He'd say: "I love you!" "I know it's not a justification for _______, but I love you!" "I've tried so hard to forget you, but I caaan't!" later: "I know you hate to hear this, but I love you!"

Obviously I love gay males (I'm a gay male, I date gay males, and the majority of my close friends are gay males), but believe me when I tell you that, as someone who's known quite a few of them and had extensive contact, the only segment of the population that could possibly rival the 'average' gay male in terms of melodrama is the 'average' teen girl.

 

That's obviously just my opinion, and it's just my opinion about the 'average' person in those groups (not that I even really believe in 'average people' anyway). Also, I'll concede that quite a few gay males (and teen girls) aren't melodramatic at all (perhaps you for example).

 

 

Thanks, Corvus

 

Take care and have a great day!

-Kevin

 

BTW, the sunglass thing drives me crazy too!

Edited July 29, 2008 by AFriendlyFace

[AFriendlyFace]

I found it quite easy to take them seriously. Perhaps that comes from ample experiences with the messiness of life and relationships. Their situation may have been a slight exaggeration for dramatic effect, but it felt like reality to me.

Thanks Richard! I'm really grateful for more feedback on how this came off!

 

Personally, I love Kevin's narrative voice, but I'm a sucker for engaging dialogue and when thoroughly engaged, tend to ignore some of the descriptions that might not make complete sense. I remember pausing at corvus' example, but dismissed it as quirky and funny and kept reading.

Thanks Steph! I'm really happy and flattered that you found it an engaging read!

 

I'm also glad (in the sense that it's informative) to know that you also paused over Corvus' example. I'll have to try to consider these things more carefully. On the other hand you ultimately decided that the line was a net positive for the story? Or that it was simply largely irrelevant?

 

 

My biggest annoyance at this story was that it was sort of like watching a car wreck... I couldn't tear my eyes away, but I didn't really want to be reading it --which goes back to my comment on flow... I probably would have stopped reading if there were any downtime in the story. I still can't decide if I actually liked the story, but I know I enjoyed Kevin's dialogue.

Thanks

 

Sounds like it came off - for you (and several others ) - exactly as I intended, so yay lol!

[kitten]

Excuse me, but how do you share a kiss *through* lips? And -- "mutually busted"? Are we talking about Al Capone or ghosts? I wouldn't object if this story were a parody, but since it doesn't seem to be one, I'm afraid this is simply writing that doesn't work. I don't know what you wanted from the reader, Kevin, but the response it elicited from me was a disbelieving choke.

 

It worked for me. It's colourful language that evokes a picture and mood. The fact it's not strictly literally accurate is irrelevant. If a story says 'Jon could swim like a fish' do you expect it to have the literal meaning 'in the manner of a fish' (in which case you might ask what sort of fish, because different types of fish swim differently) or do you expect the more usual meaning of 'as well as a fish'? However, even the more usual meaning is unlikely to be any more strictly accurate than 'kiss through mutually busted lips'.

 

But there's a lot of clumsiness throughout the story, such as the excessive and maudlin descriptions, the strange lack of commas (have you been talking to Gary??), etc. These, unfortunately, make me unable to take what's written seriously.

 

Whether or not maudlin descriptions are excessive is a matter of taste, depending on how much one enjoys them. If by clumsy you mean they seem awkward to you, then that, too, is a matter of taste. If you mean clumsy as in unintentional (which one presumes you do, because you use lack of commas as another example of it) then how do you know the maudlin descriptions were not intented to be so?

 

Explanation of b ):

Trevor and Greg had lots of volcanic interactions. Lots of highs and lows, yes. But I never had a feeling that what I was reading involved real people interacting. I'll take the scene starting with Trevor's infidelity as my example. Firstly, Trevor's motivation would be feasible only if he were stupid, arrogant, or manipulative (or a combination of all three -- but given his dialogue, only the first is possible). Secondly, the mis en scene is unrealistic -- except in horribly corny TV serials, you'd notice if you were pouring out your heart in a supermarket. Thirdly, the dialogue ("I'll follow you anywhere!") would give anyone diabetes.

 

Obviously, you have little experience of real gay people if you think that the above examples are unrealistic. I can assure you that I've seen gay men behave in ways that are far more theatrical than those described in this story. I've also seen both gay couples and straight couples who somehow manage to stay in relationships that are at least as dysfunctional as the one in this story.

 

Objection a) is based on tenants of what I believe good writing should be; objection b ) is based on my personal taste.

 

Presumably, here you mean tenets, not tenants?

As far as I can see, much of what you list under a) is very much also your personal taste.

 

I don't object to your portraying highs and lows, but I'd like to see highs and lows I can actually believe in.

Since I didn't feel involved in the highs and lows (i.e. they didn't affect or resonate with me), I didn't feel the story needed more down time.

 

Again, I can believe in such highs and lows because I've seen such things in real life (e.g. my parents!) and they affected me and resonated with me. Just because your limited experience of life does not enable you to believe in something does not mean that that something is unbelievable.

 

Hmm. I'll refrain on the entertaining bit. You did portray a controversial and atypical relationship, but I didn't think about whether the characters should be together, because I was more concerned with how I'd review the story frankly without being... mean. I couldn't imagine myself being as melodramatic as either Trevor or Greg, so I didn't put myself in their shoes. The closest I came to considering the relationshippy questions you aimed for the reader to think about was to be aghast at how similar Trevor's words were to my ex's. He'd say: "I love you!" "I know it's not a justification for _______, but I love you!" "I've tried so hard to forget you, but I caaan't!" later: "I know you hate to hear this, but I love you!"

 

A story can be a way of trying to get a glimpse into the totally different lives of others. It doesn't always need to relate directly to one's own experiences and one's own personality. I can't really imagine myself with Alzheimers, but if I read a good story about it, then maybe I can get a glimpse into the life of someone with a disappearing and fragmented memory.

 

Kit

[kitten]

When I was in school one of the biggest laughs and most notable moments was when one of my female classmates removed her shirt in public. She was not trying to be an exhibitionist nor was she stupid. She was simply oblivious and focused on what she was doing, which was chatting intently with her friends. They were walking toward the locker room - where obviously they would be undressing - and she simply got a headstart without thinking about it.

 

 

Actually, that sort of thing has happened to me a few times...

 

Like the time I drove into uni in my slippers and didn't notice until I'd parked the car and got out. I had lectures all morning so couldn't get home to change into shoes until lunchtime. (They were lectures I especially didn't want to miss, and as there were only nine people in my class, I would have been missed!)

 

Or the even more embarrassing time in a pub, when I was chatting with friends at the bar, decided to sit down and, without looking, reached out for the empty barstool behind me. Unfortunately, since I'd last seen that the stool was empty, someone had sat down in it and I ended up accidentally groping his bum. Fortunately, the guy accepted my explanation and apology! (Although maybe he wouldn't have been quite so understanding if I'd been on my own and not with several friends!)

 

Kit

[AFriendlyFace]

It worked for me. It's colourful language that evokes a picture and mood. The fact it's not strictly literally accurate is irrelevant. If a story says 'Jon could swim like a fish' do you expect it to have the literal meaning 'in the manner of a fish' (in which case you might ask what sort of fish, because different types of fish swim differently) or do you expect the more usual meaning of 'as well as a fish'? However, even the more usual meaning is unlikely to be any more strictly accurate than 'kiss through mutually busted lips'.

Thanks, Kit! I'm relieved that for some it did successfully evoke the imagery I had in mind.

 

Presumably, here you mean tenets, not tenants?

Oh I dunno. As an author 'good writing' is the ideal entity of which to be a 'tenant'. Indeed, I hope to get a lease there myself one day.

 

 

In all seriousness, I've made the exact same error before and only narrowly managed to catch it and edit it out before everyone noticed. Darn homophones!

 

 

Again, I can believe in such highs and lows because I've seen such things in real life (e.g. my parents!) and they affected me and resonated with me. Just because your limited experience of life does not enable you to believe in something does not mean that that something is unbelievable.

 

 

 

A story can be a way of trying to get a glimpse into the totally different lives of others. It doesn't always need to relate directly to one's own experiences and one's own personality. I can't really imagine myself with Alzheimers, but if I read a good story about it, then maybe I can get a glimpse into the life of someone with a disappearing and fragmented memory.

 

Kit

Thank you, Kit! I really appreciate these comments and I think those are excellent points!

 

 

Actually, that sort of thing has happened to me a few times...

 

Like the time I drove into uni in my slippers and didn't notice until I'd parked the car and got out. I had lectures all morning so couldn't get home to change into shoes until lunchtime. (They were lectures I especially didn't want to miss, and as there were only nine people in my class, I would have been missed!)

 

Or the even more embarrassing time in a pub, when I was chatting with friends at the bar, decided to sit down and, without looking, reached out for the empty barstool behind me. Unfortunately, since I'd last seen that the stool was empty, someone had sat down in it and I ended up accidentally groping his bum. Fortunately, the guy accepted my explanation and apology! (Although maybe he wouldn't have been quite so understanding if I'd been on my own and not with several friends!)

 

Kit

 

I got a big kick out of these stories! They seem like exactly the sort of situations I'd find myself in as well.

 

[sat8997]

Like the time I drove into uni in my slippers and didn't notice until I'd parked the car and got out.

 

At least you had some type of 'shoe' on your feet. I managed to get all the way to work one morning before I realized I didn't have my shoes.

[Tiff]

A lot of authors benefit from criticism, but sometimes it's best to do so privately (like via PM or email). Just an observation.

I agree with, Nick. It's best if it's done in private, because when everyone else sees it, it can come off as an attack. Then the one writing the comment comes off looking harsh and unreasonable. But Kevin, you're awesome, and nothing fazes you! You're way better than me. I'd be whipping out the weaponry

 

....

 

Uh, yeah, I'm totally kidding...

 

 

I read stories predominantly to be emotionally engaged and moved. Trevor and Greg's story didn't engage me very much because: a) I couldn't take the narrative voice seriously, and b ) I couldn't take the characters seriously.

 

Example of a):

 

Excuse me, but how do you share a kiss *through* lips? And -- "mutually busted"? Are we talking about Al Capone or ghosts? I wouldn't object if this story were a parody, but since it doesn't seem to be one, I'm afraid this is simply writing that doesn't work. I don't know what you wanted from the reader, Kevin, but the response it elicited from me was a disbelieving choke.

I think you can be emotionally engaged in a story without the characters or narrative being "serious." Don't take everything literally and just get lost in the little fantasy that the author creates. You just have to allow yourself to feel the emotions and the deeper meaning he's trying to get across.

 

IMO the whole point of the story was to show two men who were so in love with each other that they'd do anything to stay together, on any terms, good and bad. It was about accepting something, because you don't know anything else. If you relate that to a marriage, I think it's very realistic. How many married couples stay together even if they fight constantly because they have so much history? (And usually they have kids and all that other good stuff, but you get the idea...)

 

As for the "share a kiss through lips," sure, it might come off a bit awkward, but I didn't. I was too lost in the emotional aspect and for me, it seemed to work. You really can't share a kiss "through" lips, but you got what Kevin was trying to say right? They were sharing a heated and passionate kiss.

 

Explanation of b ):

Trevor and Greg had lots of volcanic interactions. Lots of highs and lows, yes. But I never had a feeling that what I was reading involved real people interacting. I'll take the scene starting with Trevor's infidelity as my example. Firstly, Trevor's motivation would be feasible only if he were stupid, arrogant, or manipulative (or a combination of all three -- but given his dialogue, only the first is possible). Secondly, the mis en scene is unrealistic -- except in horribly corny TV serials, you'd notice if you were pouring out your heart in a supermarket. Thirdly, the dialogue ("I'll follow you anywhere!") would give anyone diabetes.

 

I don't object to your portraying highs and lows, but I'd like to see highs and lows I can actually believe in.

You may not believe in the highs and lows in this story, but that doesn't mean it's not realistic. Everyone has different experiences, and trust me, there are very dramatic people out there, and that stuff actually occurs.

 

Trevor's infidelity was feasible, considering he was so desperate for Greg to show something, to react. When people are desperate, they do very dumb things. So in a way, you're right; Trevor was a little stupid, but also very desperate, which leads to to being manipulative, petty, etc.

 

Ok, "I'll follow you anywhere!" was a little cheesy, but I thought it was sweet and a total "Awww" moment. But it's not like Trevor was screaming it at the top of his lungs (right?) That would have been over the top, lol. But if he was just saying it to Greg, because he was so emotional, as they hadn't been together in three months, I still think it could happen.

 

End note: I really think to enjoy a story, you don't have to worry so much about every little tiny detail. Kevin's story was well-written and a fun verbal volley that I enjoyed reading. It was like I could see the back and forth nature of the fight in front of my eyes.

 

Ok, I know I'm not the type to be a harsh critic, but I don't believe in dissecting a story and questioning every little thing. Writing is story-telling and truthfully, nothing has to be realistic at all. If he wanted to, Kevin could have had clowns doing back flips down the supermarket aisles! We, the readers, would frown, laugh, and be confused, but it's still part of a the silly fantasy we create when we write. Now come on, what about sci-fi/fantasy genres?! Can that get any more unrealistic??? And people still love it.

 

Alrighty, enough of my rant. I hope I made sense. And I hope I didn't offend anyone.

[Duncan Ryder]

What a nasty little story -- and I mean that in the best possible way! I mean, we've all seen charming stories of this type that build on the exquisite moments of tenderness in a couple's life...and even some that show a mixture of tough and tender, where the tender overcomes the tough and explains why it all works. But here is one crafted from little vignettes of pain, manipulation and disaster. Very clever.

 

And its a tribute to your story telling ability that I stayed with the story despite the fact that I really didn't LIKE either of the characters... (I did alternately feel sorry for them and want to wack them upside the head, but that's something else altogether. ) I didn't have to like them to want to follow them from disaster to disaster.

 

Good job!

[corvus]

As a matter of fact, while as I said I really appreciate the support, and I also definitely agree with Nick that detailed criticism is often best done in private (you never know how the author will react unless he/she has mentioned it before). In my particular case I have no objection to it at all and actually really appreciated Corvus' thoughtful comments!

I would not have made my second post if Kevin hadn't been broad minded enough to invite more comments. Moreover, it's given everyone a chance to vent their spleen about their perspectives on good/bad writing, so I think I've done a deed of net positive karma points.

 

"They shared a kiss through lips"

 

Sounds ridiculous to me. However:

 

"They shared a kiss through hungry lips"

"They shared a kiss through throbbing, desperate lips"

"They shared a kiss through lips which had been lonely for far too long"

 

All sound okay to me. I'd say that the style of "through mutually busted lips" is most similar to example number two. I know it seems ridiculous that I base the suitability of the idiom on whether or not there is an adjective/descriptive phrase attached to 'lips', but in terms of simply reading it and deciding whether it's acceptable or ridiculous, that is the criteria I used in this case.

They all sound quite horrible to me, but that is apparently just me. There's a lot of different ways I might tell this scene, depending on the voice I'd have chosen to adopt. I might have written:

 

"(Greg) stared. Then -- though he had no idea why -- he leaned forward and pressed his lips against Trevor's, ignoring the shrill sting of pain and the odd feeling, once more, that he had lost."

 

Or:

 

"(Greg) stared. Then he lurched forward -- Trevor did the same -- and winced as their lips pressed together in a blistering kiss."

 

Or *something.* I, like you, Kevin, can't be sure about the basis of my selectivity, but... there it is. My objection isn't centered on the word "mutual" or the word "busted" -- although I find the former too formal, the latter with the wrong connotations -- but they're part of the summated effect given by the sentence.

 

 

If you are readily able to supply other examples I'd love to hear them! I found the ones you mentioned quite useful and interesting.

Another example -- the narrative description pegged to each line of the first... 6? 8? lines of dialogue. It's generally better to have the dialogue speak for itself. If you're insistent on having narrative supplements, try to vary the form.

 

Do you find my forum posts to be spartan on commas? You've read some of my other work, right? Have you noticed this there as well?

I've only noticed such tendencies for this story. Your posts have perfect comma balance.

 

Only the first was possible? I definitely meant for him to be manipulative; indeed that was supposed to be one such example.

I want to avoid this sort of discussion, actually, because judgment of character believability is open to greater interpretation than judgment of writing quality. But I will address this: if Trevor was so manipulative, why'd he get depressed for three months? Of course he'd have gotten depressed by the separation, since he's so attached to Greg after all, but shouldn't he feel something more complicated than mere depression, e.g. remorse, anger at himself, doubt, etc.? Maybe not. It's quite possible that he not feel any of that. I do know people who would purposefully smash something and say, "Boo hoo, but I'm in love, that's why!" and actually mean it, with no compunction. However, because I don't think people are *generally* that shallow/deluded/psychopathic, I would expect the author (or Greg...) to note it, or otherwise demonstrate awareness of this sort of behavior. It's all right if the story takes place in the Twilight Zone, as long as I don't get the feeling that the author still thinks we're in Kansas (if you get my meaning).

 

 

 

Another factor is that even if they were peripherally aware of their setting I don't think they would have particularly cared (Trevor certainly wouldn't have, Greg may have a bit I suppose *shrug*). I'm not one for making a scene in public, but I think their conversation was more important than simply following the rules of polite society. If I were miserable and I ran into someone and was faced with the opportunity to perhaps remove or lessen that misery (at least in my own mind), I hope I would be willing to knowingly create a scene if necessary, and I'm really not the kind of person who goes around causing scenes. Indeed I try to avoid them, but in my opinion what that boils down to is, "You're just buying groceries. This is my life we're talking about! Deal with it"

I'm not saying it's unrealistic to make scenes in public (I have, according to other people; and I've written such a scene myself), but that's not the point. I think the best way of getting my sentiments across is that, if the line: "You're just buying groceries. This is my life we're talking about! Deal with it" were part of the dialogue in the story, the scene would be a lot better. Certainly I'm not saying social mores are more important than disentangling personal conflicts, and it's not like I haven't done idiotic things without noticing -- I've gone into the bathtub with socks on, worn this and that inside out, backwards, blabla, etc. And I realize, maybe, that it isn't how *realistic* I find the scene -- it's the fact that it's presented in a way that doesn't convince me it did occur.

 

That's obviously just my opinion, and it's just my opinion about the 'average' person in those groups (not that I even really believe in 'average people' anyway). Also, I'll concede that quite a few gay males (and teen girls) aren't melodramatic at all (perhaps you for example).

Yeah. I think it's well established by now that I'm a dour bastard.

 

 

Whether or not maudlin descriptions are excessive is a matter of taste, depending on how much one enjoys them. If by clumsy you mean they seem awkward to you, then that, too, is a matter of taste. If you mean clumsy as in unintentional (which one presumes you do, because you use lack of commas as another example of it) then how do you know the maudlin descriptions were not intented to be so?

If the maudlin descriptions were intended to be maudlin, this story would be a parody, and I would have greatly enjoyed it. However, upon reading, I did not receive the requisite paradigmatic signals that I was reading a parody; hence, I could not treat it so, and my sensibilities suffered.

 

Obviously, you have little experience of real gay people if you think that the above examples are unrealistic. I can assure you that I've seen gay men behave in ways that are far more theatrical than those described in this story. I've also seen both gay couples and straight couples who somehow manage to stay in relationships that are at least as dysfunctional as the one in this story.

As I have tried to make clear in my earlier responses, I meant "unrealistic" as "unbelievable in a storytelling sense." There's no single term that encapsulates the confluence of literary and real-life components. Sorry for the confusion.

 

 

Presumably, here you mean tenets, not tenants?

Actually, I mean tenants. I was intending a metaphor so complex that EB White himself rose from the grave to warn me of its inevitably failure. Foolish as I was, I didn't listen, and here I am, confusing you all. Sigh.

[canundra]

I can't quite figure out what I should be feeling after I finished reading this.

 

I'm trying to figure out if I feel all fuzzy and warm inside because they 'love' each other and can't live without one another. Or do I feel frustrated with them because they're staying in a relationship that clearly isn't healthy.

 

I don't know if this whole thing is good or bad.

 

Just all around very confusing.

 

But I still enjoyed it

[AFriendlyFace]

IMO the whole point of the story was to show two men who were so in love with each other that they'd do anything to stay together, on any terms, good and bad. It was about accepting something, because you don't know anything else. If you relate that to a marriage, I think it's very realistic. How many married couples stay together even if they fight constantly because they have so much history? (And usually they have kids and all that other good stuff, but you get the idea...)

I think that's a great analogy, Tiff! A huge part of it was definitely that they just didn't know how to be without the other.

 

Ok, I know I'm not the type to be a harsh critic, but I don't believe in dissecting a story and questioning every little thing. Writing is story-telling and truthfully, nothing has to be realistic at all. If he wanted to, Kevin could have had clowns doing back flips down the supermarket aisles! We, the readers, would frown, laugh, and be confused, but it's still part of a the silly fantasy we create when we write.

Darnit! Have Sharon and Tim been showing you the rough drafts?

 

Ssshhh, don't tell anyone but Bozo and Chuckles ended up on the cutting room floor! I tried to sneak them in, and I think it might have worked if I hadn't had them riding on circus elephants, but Sharon and Tim thought it was a bit too much.

 

What a nasty little story -- and I mean that in the best possible way! I mean, we've all seen charming stories of this type that build on the exquisite moments of tenderness in a couple's life...and even some that show a mixture of tough and tender, where the tender overcomes the tough and explains why it all works. But here is one crafted from little vignettes of pain, manipulation and disaster. Very clever.

 

And its a tribute to your story telling ability that I stayed with the story despite the fact that I really didn't LIKE either of the characters... (I did alternately feel sorry for them and want to wack them upside the head, but that's something else altogether. ) I didn't have to like them to want to follow them from disaster to disaster.

 

Good job!

Wow! Thanks, Duncan! I'm incredibly flattered!

 

 

Another example -- the narrative description pegged to each line of the first... 6? 8? lines of dialogue. It's generally better to have the dialogue speak for itself. If you're insistent on having narrative supplements, try to vary the form.

Well, I do have to disagree with you there, or at least rebel and fly in the face of that advice. It's just a little quirk I have, and maybe it's horrible writing, but I don't particularly like describing non-character related things. It's extremely unlikely that I'll have a character walk into a room and then pause and describe the room. Instead, the only way you'll know anything about the room is by the way the characters interact in it, and that tends to come tied to dialogue.

 

My first 6-8 lines were basically establishing the setting. Where are the characters? Their Bedroom What are they doing? They just finished having sex.

 

Of course I could have taken a moment to say in a separate place that they were in bed having just had sex and describe their physical orientation to each other...but I didn't want to. I'd rather do it by attaching it to the dialogue tags. As I said, maybe it's poor writing, and periodically I'll try to mix it up just to challenge myself and try something new, but I naturally prefer not to spend much time describing something except in how it relates to the characters or the direct action of the story.

 

I want to avoid this sort of discussion, actually, because judgment of character believability is open to greater interpretation than judgment of writing quality. But I will address this: if Trevor was so manipulative, why'd he get depressed for three months? Of course he'd have gotten depressed by the separation, since he's so attached to Greg after all, but shouldn't he feel something more complicated than mere depression, e.g. remorse, anger at himself, doubt, etc.? Maybe not. It's quite possible that he not feel any of that. I do know people who would purposefully smash something and say, "Boo hoo, but I'm in love, that's why!" and actually mean it, with no compunction. However, because I don't think people are *generally* that shallow/deluded/psychopathic, I would expect the author (or Greg...) to note it, or otherwise demonstrate awareness of this sort of behavior. It's all right if the story takes place in the Twilight Zone, as long as I don't get the feeling that the author still thinks we're in Kansas (if you get my meaning).

I assume he did feel those things. That's definitely a logical conclusion to draw. What didn't feel logical or natural to me was explicitly writing them into the story. I didn't say he didn't feel those things, so it's open to interpretation, but no, I didn't feel the need to explicitly state that he felt those other things. I think he did; that's what I would have assumed too, but it wasn't what I chose to focus on. I may have made a poor selection on this point, but yeah, it just wasn't an aspect into which I felt it necessary to go.

[AFriendlyFace]

I can't quite figure out what I should be feeling after I finished reading this.

 

I'm trying to figure out if I feel all fuzzy and warm inside because they 'love' each other and can't live without one another. Or do I feel frustrated with them because they're staying in a relationship that clearly isn't healthy.

 

I don't know if this whole thing is good or bad.

 

Just all around very confusing.

 

But I still enjoyed it

 

Woo hoo! Glad you still enjoyed it

 

I think the ambivalence you're feelings is actually what I was shooting for (so in a sense you are feeling what I intended although you're certainly welcome and encouraged to feel whatever you feel ).

 

I think very few things, especially in relationships, really are 'good' or 'bad'. I think there's usually a little ambiguity, a little middle ground.

 

Many people have pointed out a lot of cons to Trevor and Greg's relationship that I think are very real and accurate. Many pros and positive points have also been espoused on which I feel are very real and accurate. The truth is their relationship is definitely in some sort of gray area between being a wonderful, affirming experience and being a never-ending misery fest. I think most relationships fit that bill actually. Personally I hope most relationships are a bit healthier and happier than Trevor and Greg's, but I think they've all got a lot of pros and cons which only seem stronger the longer the couple has been together.

 

Just my opinion though : )

 

In any case, as I said I'm really pleased that you enjoyed it and thanks very much for the comment!

 

-Kevin