Deeping Lore

[Nephylim]

I'm starting this thread because I really like this story and I think there is going to be a lot to discuss.

 

Also I wanted to make the comment that I really like murdering bastards

[Kavrik]

I'm starting this thread because I really like this story and I think there is going to be a lot to discuss.

 

Also I wanted to make the comment that I really like murdering bastards

 

 

With this project, if anything, there were two things that I wanted to practice. One of them was world-building. I've read some articles on it, thought about how or what I'd want to do with it, and am planning on making some attempt at introducing it bit by bit without having some annoying infodump. The other thing I wanted to practice was writing about fundamentally flawed characters and exploring whether or not there was any real appeal to them or if it just made the overall manuscript disgusting and not worth reading. Also, I'm curious as to where the line is drawn between being just evil or being vile, or if one is synonymous with the other. I know which direction I want to go, and in starting chapter two, I think that exploration of the characters I'm talking about may inadvertently also build upon the world so I'm hoping that's the case. But I've also heard that people dislike flashbacks, so I think I may avoid those.

 

The thing that I want to establish with Kian is that he's a religious fanatic and that's where all of the evil things that he does come into play. If his church were to tell him to jump, he'd say how high? If his church were to order him to kill a hundred babies, he'd do it without question. The priest's motivations on the other hand, are unmotivated by religion. His motivations are personal--he wants power and lots of it and he believes the world is his personal oyster to enjoy. It may come into question if the priest has any real faith at all at some point in the story, although that might not make sense since faith on Wynwrayth is the wellspring from which all power flows.

 

Thank you Nephy, btw for adding this forum discussion. I fail at such things--took me a while to figure out exactly how to post a story once I gestated an idea in my head.

[Nephylim]

You're welcome hun.

 

I don't know anything about world building. In my stories which are set on different worlds they just happened as I described the characters and their surrounding and how one interacts with the other. I never really thought about it so I can't really say anything helpful.

 

I love fundamentally flawed characters. They are interesting. Being a religious fanatic isn't easy and Kian can't be wholly blamed for that given his background. Evil or vile... or maybe neither. He's an assassing and killing what assassins do and I'm fine by that. What he does in his interpersonal relationships that, for me decides whether he's a flawed good character, an essentially evil one or a vile one. There has to be SOME redeeming characteristics otherwise people won't care about him or what happens to him. OR there has to be another character that people care about who act/s as a foil to him.

 

I am really liking him so far I have to admit and I don't have one single problem with the fact that he is a murderer. The priest on the other hand is a thoroughly nasty piece of work. He is interesting in his vileness though and the very fact that I already want to cut off his balls and stuff then down his throat is testament to the quality of writing in creating him. I am really looking forward to his corruption of Kian. I like characters I like to suffer some

[Kavrik]

I got Chapter two done and uploaded. Going along with more world-building techniques, I introduced a few other things such as the two wondrous metals in the world, corobidian and cibrian, which both have vastly different qualities. I definitely know where I'm going with the next few chapters as I've set them up pretty much with the ending of this one.

[Kavrik]

Hey Nephy, I added another chapter in the wee hours. Should be validated soon I think.

[Nephylim]

I hope so. I am realy looking forward to reading this one.

[Kavrik]

Out of curiosity, was the way I introduced a bunch of characters at the beginning of Chapter 3 okay because I was wondering how to accomplish that? When I reread it, I feel like it might be a dreaded info dump and wonder if readers are annoyed by it. Depending on what feedback I get regarding that may determine if I ever use it again in the future for stories I may want to write or try to go about introducing a slough of characters in another way.

[Nephylim]

I have to admit that this was the only complaint I would have about the chapter. It was a lot to take in especially as many of the names were very similar and some quite difficult to pronounce even in your head

 

Some of the descriptions were a bit clumsy, like a list.... he is x and his name is y and his special talents are z. I appreciate that much of it is necessary. The new characters had to come in, be named and identified etc I was wondering whether it would be better if you cut down on the description when you introduce them and bring some of their characteristics while the story goes along. That's easier said than done I appreciate.

 

I usually keep to a few characters for this very reason. The only story with a lot of characters is Fallen and I have been very aware of this issue and of introducing the characters slowly.

 

Having said that this does not detract from the fact that this was a well written and very enjoyable chapter. The little touches like the cloaks and the mocking about sexual... stuff... were gold and the fight at the end was particularly exciting.

 

That priest is such a creep. i hate him.

 

Oh and I am still loving Kian to bits. Even though he is a homicidal maniac he does it with such flair. He even blinks away the dead bodies to keep it all nice and tidy.

[thatboyChase]

love me some world building

[Nephylim]

Love the way you build them

[Andrew Q Gordon]

Kavrik

 

Love the story, very imaginative and well written. I am glad I waited to post my comments - well got busy is more like it so it wasn't a conscious decision - because the beginning of Chap. 4 answer my burning question - if Kian is immune to magic, how did the priest hurt him like that - and well that was the first scene in Chap 4.

 

Okay, couple comments - and I prefaced these by saying I am sure others on here - her resident vampireness specifically - will disagree with me on at least one.

 

I think you hurt your story using Dolmani's perspective. As most who read my comments know - and Nephylim and I did agree here - I don't like multiple perspectives in a story. Most published works are restricted to one characters perspective unless it is 3rd person omniscient. BUT in those cases were there are more than one perspective, it is usually limited to one group - good guys or bad guys - here you are - IMHO - ruining the suspense by letting us know Dolmani has it in for Kian and Kragar for that matter. It would be better if Dolmani's thoughts were not included and we got the story from Kian's perspective only. This is not to say you can't narrate scenes where he is not, only refrain from giving us his thoughts. For an example in current popular fiction - Harry Potter - there were scenes through out the novel that focused on Snape where Harry was not present. We saw/heard what was said as if we were flies on the wall but we never heard Snape's thoughts. If we had we would have known he was a double agent for Dumbledor and not Voldemort. Had we heard his thoughts that would have ruined the suspense. Here we know Dolmani is out for Kian and he is out for Kragar because we heard his thoughts. hence, leaving the parchment with Kragar's seal - we know why that was done, where had we not gotten Dolmani's perspective, we wouldn't know it was to frame Kragar, we might think it was a message or part of the plan or whatever, until the trap was sprung.

 

Second, Kian's character changes dramatically from the first chapter to the second third and forth. His deference, nay subservience to Dolmani is an almost 180 from how he treated him at the first meeting. I got the part where he tells Tenander that he sees Dolmani as the voice of Tethyr but it seems a bit dramatic, maybe it was just me, but I didn't expect him to ask 'how high' when Dolmani said jump when they were eating in the common room. Just seemed out of Character. BUT that said, I could be jumping the gun again.

 

Third, I really like how you fill us in bit by bit. Slowly we find out more and more about your characters, the world and the important events. I like that you don't just cram it on us all at once. Even with this slow addition of information I had to re read things a couple times to keep things straight, because there is a lot to digest. Great job with that, highly imaginative.

 

I also think you do a great job of creating your characters and keeping them in character - the Kian deference thing aside - we can almost predict how most of the character will react - even Kian, because know we know he is deferential to the priesthood.

 

I am very interested to see where you take this next. Darker? Really? Wow, I might need my hellion repellent to read on.

 

 

Andy

[Kavrik]

Kavrik

 

Love the story, very imaginative and well written. I am glad I waited to post my comments - well got busy is more like it so it wasn't a conscious decision - because the beginning of Chap. 4 answer my burning question - if Kian is immune to magic, how did the priest hurt him like that - and well that was the first scene in Chap 4.

 

Okay, couple comments - and I prefaced these by saying I am sure others on here - her resident vampireness specifically - will disagree with me on at least one.

 

I think you hurt your story using Dolmani's perspective. As most who read my comments know - and Nephylim and I did agree here - I don't like multiple perspectives in a story. Most published works are restricted to one characters perspective unless it is 3rd person omniscient. BUT in those cases were there are more than one perspective, it is usually limited to one group - good guys or bad guys - here you are - IMHO - ruining the suspense by letting us know Dolmani has it in for Kian and Kragar for that matter. It would be better if Dolmani's thoughts were not included and we got the story from Kian's perspective only. This is not to say you can't narrate scenes where he is not, only refrain from giving us his thoughts. For an example in current popular fiction - Harry Potter - there were scenes through out the novel that focused on Snape where Harry was not present. We saw/heard what was said as if we were flies on the wall but we never heard Snape's thoughts. If we had we would have known he was a double agent for Dumbledor and not Voldemort. Had we heard his thoughts that would have ruined the suspense. Here we know Dolmani is out for Kian and he is out for Kragar because we heard his thoughts. hence, leaving the parchment with Kragar's seal - we know why that was done, where had we not gotten Dolmani's perspective, we wouldn't know it was to frame Kragar, we might think it was a message or part of the plan or whatever, until the trap was sprung.

 

Second, Kian's character changes dramatically from the first chapter to the second third and forth. His deference, nay subservience to Dolmani is an almost 180 from how he treated him at the first meeting. I got the part where he tells Tenander that he sees Dolmani as the voice of Tethyr but it seems a bit dramatic, maybe it was just me, but I didn't expect him to ask 'how high' when Dolmani said jump when they were eating in the common room. Just seemed out of Character. BUT that said, I could be jumping the gun again.

 

Third, I really like how you fill us in bit by bit. Slowly we find out more and more about your characters, the world and the important events. I like that you don't just cram it on us all at once. Even with this slow addition of information I had to re read things a couple times to keep things straight, because there is a lot to digest. Great job with that, highly imaginative.

 

I also think you do a great job of creating your characters and keeping them in character - the Kian deference thing aside - we can almost predict how most of the character will react - even Kian, because know we know he is deferential to the priesthood.

 

I am very interested to see where you take this next. Darker? Really? Wow, I might need my hellion repellent to read on.

 

 

Andy

 

 

The Scourge that Dolmani used on Kian supercedes his immunity to magic because it was made to keep the Church firmly in control of their elite warriors like Kian. That way they'd never get into their own minds to do a coup on someone they didn't like. I read on a writer's blog at how successful J.K. Rowling was in staying with one character the entire time (Harry Potter) and his perspective via third person and never switching. Hmmm. Sometimes a scene can be written so many ways from so many points of view it's fascinating to try and choose one. This is an entertaining story to write and I think my mind is in danger of really slipping off into the gutter LOL. /smokes a cigarette.

[Nephylim]

The Scourge that Dolmani used on Kian supercedes his immunity to magic because it was made to keep the Church firmly in control of their elite warriors like Kian. That way they'd never get into their own minds to do a coup on someone they didn't like. I read on a writer's blog at how successful J.K. Rowling was in staying with one character the entire time (Harry Potter) and his perspective via third person and never switching. Hmmm. Sometimes a scene can be written so many ways from so many points of view it's fascinating to try and choose one. This is an entertaining story to write and I think my mind is in danger of really slipping off into the gutter LOL. /smokes a cigarette.

 

 

Do it I like it in the gutter and could do with some company

 

As far as the perspective is concerned I write like a television programme. In a good drama the camera switches to whichever person has something to say at that time. It pans and zooms and switches. As long as the movement is smooth I think that is by far the better way of writing than focussing on only one character.

 

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Harry Potter books and I have read them all numerous times. However they are not exactly the greatest works of literature

[Andrew Q Gordon]

The Scourge that Dolmani used on Kian supercedes his immunity to magic because it was made to keep the Church firmly in control of their elite warriors like Kian. That way they'd never get into their own minds to do a coup on someone they didn't like. I read on a writer's blog at how successful J.K. Rowling was in staying with one character the entire time (Harry Potter) and his perspective via third person and never switching. Hmmm. Sometimes a scene can be written so many ways from so many points of view it's fascinating to try and choose one. This is an entertaining story to write and I think my mind is in danger of really slipping off into the gutter LOL. /smokes a cigarette.

 

Yeah I got the whole Scourge thing, that was my point, had I commented after three like I wanted, i would have asked, why is he hurt by magic when he is immune, but then I didn't reply and read four and the scourge was explained - hence I am glad I waited as it was quickly explained.

 

It's not that you can't write more than one perspective - I said it wrong in my post, Nephylim and I did NOT agree [i left out the 'not' in the original] you can give multiple perspectives, Nephy did it well in Hostage - but you shouldn't give out the perspective of the antagonist was my point. Telling us Dolmani's thoughts takes away from the suspense. If we didn't know he had it in for Kian, using the scourge on him wouldn't make as much sense to us but it would set us up for the plot twist when you reveal his true motives. Same with the parchment with Kragar's seal. We know he is framing Kragar, it would be better if we didn't know that until it came to light. That was my point.

 

I still maintain, one perspective is best despite the allure of using more than one, but that is a preference not a complaint. I do however think it should be limited to one type. To use Hostage as an example, we only 'heard' from the two main characters. We didn't hear from anyone who would give away a plot twist. So when we learned that Neive is more than she let on it was a shock.

 

Anyway, I will shut up from now on and keep my comments to my self.

 

So when is Chapter 5?

[Nephylim]

Don't you dare keep your comments to yourself. When you have something to say it's always worth listening to. I know I always did.

[Kavrik]

Okay I understand you now, and I completely agree with you Quonus. I'm so thankful for the readers on this website, it never occured to me that I'd be ruining suspense by putting the reader on the inside of the head of one of the villains. Now that I'm aware of that, I'll see what I can do to heighten suspense using perspectives. To digress just a little bit, right now I'm reading some George R.R. Martin that a friend of mine, James, recommended to me and although he's a good writer and seems to be really talented at differing perspectives and shifting from character to character, his writing doesn't resonate with me because I'm not straight. James and I have had lengthy discussions by phone on how I told him that he recommended a series to me where it's just a straight male's fantasy of young women being annointed all the time, screwed up against walls, hair all wound up etc. His argument was, "Mike, that is not the whole story". I said, "Of course it isn't, James, but it's on every other page so its not like I can't ignore it and I find it to be incredibly sexist." Anyway, this topic isn't to disparage George who obviously is an amazingly talented writer but I have to say that maybe a small part of why I started this story was to see if I could write something in that genre that was really gay. Because lord knows, published fantasy is dominated by straight people.

 

I got a review by email that had some really good points. Here's a cut and paste of it from skywriter4:

 

Truly enjoyed this story and the intricate world that you have created. Read all four chapters in one sitting, can't wait for the next one. Extremely detailed and well written. The characters are intriguing and starting to develop very well. Now I do have a few constructive comments that I'd like to give you. Take them for what they're worth and I just want to preface them saying that I really like your righting and see amazing potential. If I didn't I wouldn't bother at all, so I'm only pointing these things out because I really like your writing and want to try and help it to be great writing. So I hope that you can take it in the spirit that it's meant and if I'm way off base feel free to disregard it, won't hurt my feelings

 

The first thing that was difficult for me to understand was if Kian is an assassin of legend that people didn't even think existed who was trained and gifted by a god. Why would the group dynamic be so disrespectful of him? Shouldn't someone shrouded in legend inspire awe and respect instead of disdain and disgust? And if such disrespect was shown, someone hundreds of years old who's killed literally "countless" numbers of people put a stop to that pretty damn quickly? I mean, I understand the priests disdain for him and you explained his ability to show such respect very well, but why everyone else did was hard for me to grasp. Even with the cultural prejudice you explained I felt would be out weighed by Kain's fame/legend status and obvious ability to kill everyone but the priest pretty damn fast.

 

The second thing that baffled me was Kian's inability to read. Someone who is hundreds of years old, who has a vast fortune and who started the "Slayer Tsincaat", which has yet to be elaborated but is obviously something complex and causing problems. Would not only be able to read and write, but I would assume have command over several languages both written and spoken. So if this is something you want to stick it's going to need a lot more explanation. I can see that you want to go somewhere with it, that it has a purpose to the dynamic between the priest and Kain, but at this point, to me it is totally unbelievable.

 

The last thing I would caution on is some of the transitions were a little confusing. When the legend of Deepening Lore is first told, I had a hard time understanding who was telling the story, and then it's told again by the priest. The first telling was better, but I still feel slightly confused by the legend all together, not really sure what happened or what's going on. The other one that I can think of is the "vision" that he has w/ the apparition of his future son. I had to read that part three times just to make sure I understood what was going on and what he was seeing.

 

Like I said, this is constructive criticism and I hope you take it in the spirit that it's meant. I really enjoyed your writing and am not trying to belittle it in any way. I wouldn't have done this at all if I didn't think you're writing was great. Anyway, would love to hear your thoughts/responses and hope that I was helpful. So please feel free to shoot me an email anytime and I'll try to respond in a timely manner.

 

Thanks,

 

Ty

 

COMMENT: Skywriter (a.k.a. Ty) brought up some really good points. I think that the answer to the first part of why so many people view him with disdain is because they are, quite frankly, jealous of his legendary status. They "view" themselves as being in the same category as him (we'll just call it the murdering bastards of the world category or M.B.W.C.). Now people that belong to the M.B.W.C. don't like showering praise on other members of that same organization. Rather, they believe that they should be the ones that are admired. I'm using the psychology of lobsters in a basket forever reaching up and pulling that one lobster that is trying to get out back down into the basket so that no one escapes. To truly see his reputation out there, you'd have to get away from these self-same folks which the story hasn't done yet. In future chapters and from different religions, his reputation and respect is going to be formidable. I obviously fail to get that across in my writing but that is the intent behind why he gets picked on by people that honestly have the ego to think of themselves as equal or at least a peer of Kian's, even though they aren't at all and don't even possess a fraction of his natural talent.

 

His second comment that he made was about the illiteracy. I really put a lot of thought into this before I started writing that first chapter. The reason Kian is illiterate is because he was a sex slave as a child and they didn't teach him anything and wanted him to stay ignorant. He grew up hating the influential people that raped him because of his beauty and wanted to murder them all. The way I see it, he was discovered by a professional killer that saw in him raw talent and desire to murder people and kidnapped him from the slavehouse in which he was trapped. He also has a brand on his foot where he was marked by a former owner...that's why his last name is Lightfoot. He hopped around on one leg as a kid after they branded him and the men laughed at him struggling to walk like that and gave him that name. Kian actually doesn't know what his real last name is but wants to find out.

 

Now this guy that taught him the art of assassination; he was really good. He also told Kian about the legendary sword Bloodbane and took care of him, etc., and didn't mistreat him at all. He told Kian that Bloodbane was an ancient weapon and that anyone that wielded it, would become the best killer in the world. When his Master who'd been searching for this sword all of his life, finally figured out where to find it through clues he'd gathered, Kian murdered him and went after the sword and claimed it for himself. Now, back on the literaracy question... he never learned to read as a child, once he became an adult, he got too busy to devote time to it. Plus, he's full of pride and just doesn't want to reveal that he doesn't know how to read because people might think less of him. In addition, he became a religious fanatic of a God whose followers practice a strictly oral tradition...no written records are kept. So this further discourages the need for him to be able to read.

 

Finally, Kian's entire race is extinct. The Atlanteans were all murdered, conquered, and enslaved and with it, the language he would have wanted to learn became dead. I believe that language is going to arise from economic superpowers, so, the two superpowers in the world of Wynwrayth are the two enormous empires, Sulasia and Thularum. Kian wouldn't learn either of these languages simply because those two governments never lifted a finger to help any of his people. In fact, they were responsible for enslaving many Atlanteans and selling them to Nykorans who liked to skin them.

 

Anyway, I'm working on Chapter Five. You guys are awesome.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nephylim]

That makes a lot of sense. It looks like you have a very detailed back story which always adds to the richness of a story. The only thing I would say is that with such a lot of detail in your mind be careful that you don't assume the reader knows what you do.

[Kavrik]

That makes a lot of sense. It looks like you have a very detailed back story which always adds to the richness of a story. The only thing I would say is that with such a lot of detail in your mind be careful that you don't assume the reader knows what you do.

 

Oh heck yea. I know I'm gonna be messin' up all over the place so I appreciate it when people can point it out. I am making an effort to tell a good story but world-building has got my head swimming. It's definitely more complex than I originally thought.

[Nephylim]

It's not complex at all. The more you think about it the more artificial it will be. Have a view in your head of what your world is like and just unfold it as the need arises. Don't assume that people need to know everything about the world, only what they need to know for the story.

 

In Hostage I didn't even have a picture of the world as it was in my head. I have no idea if it was this world in the future or a completely different world altogether. I don't know if Rowan had three eyes or Astrin had purple skin... although maybe I covered that one... I don't know what all the continents look like or what the governement system was like in practice. I simply told the story as it came to me with the additional extras I needed to enrichen the plot

 

Of course you have to have some kind of idea about the world your characters are living in but if you plan it down to the last detail, unless it is an epic then it only spoils the flow of the story. Let it come out naturally and make a note as it does so that you build up the building blocks rather than build the house and try to describe it brick by brick. Readers are perfectly capable of filling gaps when they need to.

[Andrew Q Gordon]

At the risk of making Nephy like me or something, I totally agree with her on this.

 

I wrote/writing a fantasy story. The 'world' has evolved several times and it grew - i.e. places were added along the way - more than once. You can drop hints about this or that, but really, IF these people knew the social structure of their world and understood that this was the biggest country and this was small etc, no one would sit around discussing the various places, it would already be known.

 

Think of it this way, would you and your friends, or even someone you knew, sit around discussing what countries are the dominate powers in the world? I mean, maybe if you are debating it, but if you met a friend for lunch it likely wouldn't be a topic, same if you met a new business acquaintance. So in that regard, it is not the most interesting for the reader to get a several paragraph long recitation of the structure of the world.

 

Personally I think you are doing a brilliant job of giving us info as we need to know it. Do NOT feel compelled to give us a chapter on the various places of the world. Stick to your current plan - that's my opinion.

 

Andy

 

[Happy Nephy? I didn't shut up. So please don't bite me now.]

[Nephylim]

Aw Come on Andy you know you like it

[Kavrik]

Thanks for the quick review Nephy...you are one fast reader.

[Nephylim]

Just the right place at the right time hun And I get sucked into stories I really like and speed read This story has more twists and turns than a very twisty turny thing.

 

 

[Kavrik]

Here's a picture of what I think the Nykoran warriors look like that I tried to describe in my dark fantasy story.

 

 

Also in Chapter 7, I'm going to introduce a new race called the Harefeet. This character is going to be relatively important to the story and I'm going to try and describe it without being silly as I think they are very distinguished even though they are rabbits. This particular one is going to be a good guy (sort of) but will be in love with the gray dwarf (Sarilor) that I introduced in Kian's vision at the end of Chapter 4. He's in love with her because she is so powerful and short like he is even though she's a bad person. Nevertheless, his goal is gonna be to put her down AFTER he informs her how much he loves her.

 

 

This is a pic that I drew of Sir Dylan Avery. He's the knight with whom Kian is in love and vice versa. The armor he's wearing is pretty typical of how I see Valion Knight armor; the enlarged spurs are for riding dragons and not for riding horses (they ride silver dragons).

 

And this is kinda how I picture Kian. Please forgive my bad drawing on both Dylan and Kian as I just basically have only had high school art as far as training goes and played a little with photoshop. So proportions may be off but it's kinda what I had in my mind. Anyways, I hope that by posting these it doesn't ruin the mental picture you had of them in your mind because by all means, what you have up in your brain of how they should look like is more important. I just sometimes like to look at pics or illustrations because they help me visualize what I may struggle to put into words. Also forgive the grayscale, just picture the lighter colors on his killsuit as silver because it's supposed to be silver and black (and yes that's how the killsuit essentially looks with the helmet off).

[Andrew Q Gordon]

Kavrik

 

Wow, that was some impressive pictures. If that is what you consider bad art, I'll take it.

 

Me personally, I don't think they ruin my mental image. I picture Kian similar, now quite the same but pretty similar.

 

One question: I got that Kian had a sort of ambivalent sexuality - which I take to be bi-sexual, BUT I haven't read the newest chapter yet, so maybe this is covered, but in the previous chapter you mentioned a female wizard who was very powerful whom Kian loved but whom he didn't pursue because he couldn't have children based on the curse. You also mentioned that of all his partners he only loved Dylan. Seemed a dichotomy there. Now I get that he could have HER as his ideal woman, but Dylan as the only person he had a dalliance who he ever truly loved, but it seems he has two true loves. Did I miss something or is that accurate??

 

I do so love being able to ask the author questions, rather than coast along wondering, this who discussion forum idea is a great way to read books, if the author is willing to respond. [And I know you respond, that wasn't a hint you needed to do more, just a general observation]

 

Andy