Paternity

[methodwriter85]

Over in reviews...Tim said...

 

I also like that the reality of who Tony is, at least right now, came out as well. The sooner Will figures out that Tony is a long way away from BF material and that Will figures out he is years away from being ready for a serious relationship the better.

 

I liked Will's wake-up call, as well. I think we all have that person- either in a platonic sense or a romantic sense- who you feel so strongly drawn to but it's not something that can really work out.

 

I also like seeing "50 Shades of Gay" when it comes to Tony. It reminded me of a friend I had, who genuinely enjoys having sex with woman, but can only be both physically and emotionally satisfied by men. That is what made it so hard for him to accept being gay, because he liked having sex with women but it was more emotionally satisfying to have sex with men. I'm assuming Tony's similiar- he's gay and struggling hard against it, but his ability to enjoy sex with women makes it easier for him to deny it.

[centexhairysub]

Well, I tried to leave a review but everytime I try and click on the link my page times out; so I guess I will just give everyone my dose of wisdom here... LOL...

 

I really enjoyed Will and Nana's conversation while riding. I think this was a great way to look back out how many of the men in this story have real significant issues with their mothers. I think Will wants more from Jeanine than Brad or Robbie have with their mother. I think it is as he stated that his counselor has helped him see he can't give up on Jeanine while she is going through this crisis. I think they always had a rather congenial relationship rather than a close one before she got pregnate. A case of post partum depression as bad as she appears to have can radically alter a person's behaviour. I think it would be really important for Will to try to not only help make sure Jeanine is getting the best treatment possible; but to make sure he did everything to keep the door open between them until there is no alterantive but to close it forever, I don't see this happening...

 

I think it is really important that Will have some adult relationships with older people that are to some extent outside the family sphere; a plus that Nana isn't overawed or intimidated by the family. Will needs someone that can give him a honest unbiased view of what is going on in his life and family. A view from someone that can see the situation clearly but not be influenced by anyone involved; Nana fits this bill perfectly. It amazes me how often parents will shut grandparents out of their childrens lives when they don't approve of something; this really hurts the children and denies them an important link to someone to learn from.

 

I thought the way the situation with Will and Tony was handled was really great; very well done, Mark... I enjoy Will and Tony's interludes but they are at such different places in their lives right now; plus even though Tony is more comfortable having sex with Will, I don't think he is anywhere close to being ready to have a real relationship with a man because of his father's past... Will handled this much better than he would have even a few months ago... He did not cause a scene but removed himself from the situation and gave himself time to process how he felt about the events. A very mature move on his part. In some ways, Will is more mature and aware of himself than Tony is; so much of Tony's actions and reflexes can be traced back to how he views Sam's actions. Tony has never really dealt with his feeling on this and until he does; probably shouldn't be in a serious relationship with anyone male or female.

 

I just cringed when I saw the set up with John Carrullo coming up. I think that Carrullo will be horrified when he realizes who Will is and how young he is. Carrullo was obviously intoxicated and somewhat impaired; this seems to be an ongoing state with him and bothers me somewhat. That being said, you don't expect a 14 year old to be at a frat party. Will is physically mature and appears to be able to pass for a high school senior or college freshman fairly easily and I will just about bet anything that Carrullo thought he was one or the other. I can sympathies with him on this issue...

When I was 20 years old and in a bar in Austin, Texas many years ago; I ran into a similar situation. The drinking age had been changed from 18 years old to 19 years old in the state and bouncers and bartenders were really checking ID before selling alcohol to anyone. I had a really hot guy drinking next to me and we hit up a conversation and both bought each other a couple of drinks before deciding to leave together. The guy looked, at least to me to be older than I was, and he had mentioned that his car was in the shop; so I drove him back to his place. He had a garage apartment in a pretty good neighborhood and I ended up spending the night. The next morning we spent a little extra time in bed and he asked me if I could run him to school as he was going to be late for his first class. I said sure and said what location and he started giving me directions. Austin has several colleges but it did not take me long to realize his directions were leading me to a high school in the area... By the time I had pulled up in front of the high school, I was really mortified... The guy turned out to be a senior and 17 years old but at that time, I had never slept with anyone younger than I was and just kept waiting for the police to pull me over and take me away. This was of course way before sodomy was decriminalized in Texas. I did end up hooking up with the guy about eight months later after he turned 18 but I never forgot the incident and was always much more aware of the age of those men I were sleeping with...

[PrivateTim]

-dealing with high school really seems like nothing more than "kid stuff" as opposed to actually being important for the sake of his education and such. With the way he is now, having to deal with a "closed" HS social environment comes off as purely a step backward.

 

Except that he has a "play date" scheduled with Alistair still and it remains to be seen what that interaction with a peer will be like and what longing or epiphany Alistair provides Will with.

 

I don't think Mark has the time with Alisatair as a "throw away" filler, but as a vehicle to set something else up.

[PrivateTim]

Speaking of ice hockey.....

 

PAC 8 allies with You Can Play

[BeysJoshersLepton V2]

Just out of personal curiosity (as it isn't really key to whats going on currently). Everyone seems to be in therapy in these families & I wondered if J.P. ever has the odd conversation with Yalom who's been at Stanford since the early 60's. I only really made the connecion between the two in how hes written after i'd finished re-reading The gift of Therapy this morning. I doubt it was a concious attempt (sorry Mark no ones that good ) but just shows how the amazing backstories of these characters are & can continue to be woven into the the real world. I often like looking through these stories especially the newer ones (will have to re-read them all one day) through various theraputic orientations.

[Mark Arbour]

Just out of personal curiosity (as it isn't really key to whats going on currently). Everyone seems to be in therapy in these families & I wondered if J.P. ever has the odd conversation with Yalom who's been at Stanford since the early 60's. I only really made the connecion between the two in how hes written after i'd finished re-reading The gift of Therapy this morning. I doubt it was a concious attempt (sorry Mark no ones that good ) but just shows how the amazing backstories of these characters are & can continue to be woven into the the real world. I often like looking through these stories especially the newer ones (will have to re-read them all one day) through various theraputic orientations.

 

To do that consciously would require a much deeper knowledge of therapy than I possess.

[JLK9N]

Is it bad of me to hope that the judge smacks Will down when the court hearing happens?

[Mark Arbour]

Is it bad of me to hope that the judge smacks Will down when the court hearing happens?

 

Not really, but this time I think Will is right. I think it's important that Jeanine's care is managed by her whole family. His outrage that Darius has been excluded is to me the thing that really resonates.

[JLK9N]

Not really, but this time I think Will is right. I think it's important that Jeanine's care is managed by her whole family. His outrage that Darius has been excluded is to me the thing that really resonates.

 

Well, there is that.

 

I dunno, I guess I shouldn't be so annoyed by Will... he is only 14, after all. Maybe it's because it seems to me that anyone who could have a real shot at helping him get his head on straight (Stef, JP, Wade, heck even NANA!) just seem to 'enable' him.

[B1ue]

See, here's the thing with that. Whatever level of maturity Will may or may not posses, which is another argument, Will is a flight risk. There's only so far his elders can guide him before risking him just saying "I'm sorry you feel that way," and walking away. And however emotionally stable you read him as, he is not a typical 13 or 14 year old in that regard, because he can actually do that and have it stick. So in this respect, his elders are limited to treating him as they would an adult child, which is somewhat true in his case, and hope that's enough.

 

That Robbie, JJ, and Brad between them are doing their absolute best effort to piss the entire rest of the clan off simultaneously is not helping. Will can, and does, act like a spoilt brat at times, but when his parents also act that way, who are they to choose between?

 

It's also been my impression that Robbie has been more tolerated than embraced, so they aren't exactly inclined to side with him anyways. But that may be my own personal reaction forcing things into the text that isn't really there. Robbie gets on my nerves like Will gets on Tim's and JJ gets on Sharon's.

[Mark Arbour]

See, here's the thing with that. Whatever level of maturity Will may or may not posses, which is another argument, Will is a flight risk. There's only so far his elders can guide him before risking him just saying "I'm sorry you feel that way," and walking away. And however emotionally stable you read him as, he is not a typical 13 or 14 year old in that regard, because he can actually do that and have it stick. So in this respect, his elders are limited to treating him as they would an adult child, which is somewhat true in his case, and hope that's enough.

That's a very good assessment. I would submit that they get better results that way, anyway.

 

That Robbie, JJ, and Brad between them are doing their absolute best effort to piss the entire rest of the clan off simultaneously is not helping. Will can, and does, act like a spoilt brat at times, but when his parents also act that way, who are they to choose between?

I'm not seeing Will's behavior in this current situation as obnoxious or wrong, but that's me. Your mileage may vary. I see his sense of responsibility to his mother trumping the pain she's caused him. I'd consider that a good thing.

 

 

It's also been my impression that Robbie has been more tolerated than embraced, so they aren't exactly inclined to side with him anyways. But that may be my own personal reaction forcing things into the text that isn't really there. Robbie gets on my nerves like Will gets on Tim's and JJ gets on Sharon's.

I think, as regards Robbie, it's a little of both. He has some annoying traits that bug the shit out of Stef, JP, and some of the others. His whining would be one thing that would personally drive me crazy, his stubbornness another, and his unwillingness to listen to reason would be the deal killer for me. On the other hand, he's generally got a good heart, and when he's in a stable mode (not freaking out), he's a good guy.

[B1ue]

I'm not seeing Will's behavior in this current situation as obnoxious or wrong, but that's me. Your mileage may vary. I see his sense of responsibility to his mother trumping the pain she's caused him. I'd consider that a good thing.

 

I didn't quite mean this situation. I think I'm more surprised he cares than anything else, and look forward to seeing where it goes.

 

I'm trying to parse what exactly he does that makes me think "spoiled," and I think it's his lack of a middle gear. He can moderate himself, we just saw him do so with Tony, but that's not exactly his favorite tactic. He has a tendency to reach for the biggest hammer he has and whack any obstacle in his path as hard as he can when they present themselves. Actually, that's not fair. He does that when the big hammer will work, he does bow to the inevitable when he recognizes it.

I may still be doing the character a disservice. All of his problem lately have been big hammer problems, so perhaps that's where I'm getting that impression from. Although I can't help but see a future moment where Stef yells, "Will, you're grounded! No talking to your lawyers for two weeks!"

 

I think, as regards Robbie, it's a little of both. He has some annoying traits that bug the shit out of Stef, JP, and some of the others. His whining would be one thing that would personally drive me crazy, his stubbornness another, and his unwillingness to listen to reason would be the deal killer for me. On the other hand, he's generally got a good heart, and when he's in a stable mode (not freaking out), he's a good guy.

 

Oh, he has his good points. It's just my personal impression. And that whining is probably the most annoying trait I can find in an adult, male or female.

[Mark Arbour]

Although I can't help but see a future moment where Stef yells, "Will, you're grounded! No talking to your lawyers for two weeks!"

 

 

That's hilarious!

[methodwriter85]

I loved that this chapter was basically a preview of coming 2000's trends. The only thing missing was a guy who likes wearing girl jeans, eyeliner, obscure band t-shirts, and flat-ironed hair. (My friend Josh was a prototype Emo Boy, several years before that came into style.)

 

I remember when leather pants were a big deal circa the late 90's/early '00s. David Boreanaz on Buffy rocked the hell out of that look...

 

 

Anyway, I really liked Marie's characterization. You can see how she's Claire's daughter, but at the same, she feels like a totally different and new character and not a re-tread.

[PrivateTim]

I loved that this chapter was basically a preview of coming 2000's trends. The only thing missing was a guy who likes wearing girl jeans, eyeliner, obscure band t-shirts, and flat-ironed hair.

 

Hunh, that must have been a Delaware 2000's trend that skipped coastal CA

 

One word in the last chapter triggered a thought in me.

 

Surely given JP's prominence with money and Stanfurd elitism he'd be invited to Bohemian Grove. I'd love to see Brad, JP, Wade, Jeff and Will at Bohemian Grove.

[methodwriter85]

Hunh, that must have been a Delaware 2000's trend that skipped coastal CA

 

Tim, that was a reference to the emo boy look, which was huge with a certain segment of young people in the mid-2000's. They would dress like that, and then post pictures of themselves on Myspace with funny angles.(Myspace. Man, I'm dating myself with that reference.) It was a national trend that faded out during the late 2000's- most of them aged out and became hipsters.

 

 

They were to my generation what "goths" were to your generation, and I'm not surprised you missed out on seeing that trend. It was pretty specific to a certain segment of people, who I don't really associate with being into sports. I personally never did the look- I was more into wearing cargo shorts, t-shirts, and flip-flops, and wearing a faux-hawk. But I had friends who were into the look. I'll never forget the time I walked in on my friend Long Island Hipster Steve making out with this emo boy at a St. Patty's Day '07 party. Despite the ridiculousness of the styles, I loved how comfortable emo guys were with gay people, to the point that they'd post Youtube videos of them making out with other guys to show how cool they were.

Edited December 11, 2012 by methodwriter85

[MJ85]

There's something about Marie that sort of annoyed me in this chapter - she struck me as someone who thinks she's the cool one by rebelling and seemingly not "fitting in" while in reality she's really conforming to the mainstream version of "not fitting in". And that's before we even get to the $700 shoes...

 

Oh, and nevermind the fact that it'll be Stef who has the last laugh in the end seeing as it's all about the designer labels these days...

 

With Will already being physically big for his age anyway, should he even be one to be wearing tight jeans anyway?

 

All things considered though, it's more often than not that I'll be wearing combinations that aren't all from one label, head-to-toe. I sometimes feel like I'd be a "label whore" when I do match completely like that. For me, it's more about what I think looks good on me and what I feel like wearing.

 

As for Noah: He's closeted, he and Ferris had a thing, the closet broke them up, and Ferris isn't the type to either get over that or deal very well with gay guys who aren't uber-gay. How far off am I?

[Mark Arbour]

Hunh, that must have been a Delaware 2000's trend that skipped coastal CA

 

One word in the last chapter triggered a thought in me.

 

Surely given JP's prominence with money and Stanfurd elitism he'd be invited to Bohemian Grove. I'd love to see Brad, JP, Wade, Jeff and Will at Bohemian Grove.

 

I'm not sure that JP is Bohemian Grove material. That's probably a little too Republican for him. I can see Jack being involved, though, primarily through his own family connections.

[centexhairysub]

Mark, thanks for the bonus chapter, it was great and really seemed to move the story along...

 

I think Stef and Claire are right and part of Brad's attitude is that he really sees the situation with Jeanine in the same light that Will and Darius does. I think that Brad is more pissed off at Robbie and JJ then he is at Will in this instance. It seems to me that Will is acting in a very mature and responsible manner toward Jeanine; what's wrong with getting a second opinion??? Jeanine seems to be in worse shape now after being with this doctor then she was when she started treatment. Not every doctor/counselor works with every patient; some can be toxic together. I think reaching the conclusion of this side of the story is going to be very explosive.

 

I really like this introduction to Marie; she reminds me of Claire in so many ways but with a really new spin. I hope that Claire and Marie are both around more often. Claire has always been one of my favorite people in the CAP series. I found Marie's comments about Noah and Carter both very interesting. After very little exposure, it looks like Will and Marie may have a great deal in common...

 

Will seems to really have feelings about Noah, and I like it that he hasn't slept with him yet and isn't even sure how he feels about him. It would be nice to see Will take longer than 20 minutes to get someone in bed. I do think that Will needs to be careful that he doesn't come across as overbearing with Noah. Noah is obviously from more of a working class background and often someone with a lot of money can act in a way that is normal for them; but to someone from another background their actions seems overbearing.

 

In general, I have always been more of a Robbie fan than a Brad fan. I do find Robbie's whinning annoying but I think a great deal of that is because of insecurity, which Brad's actions and behaviour is responsible for in no small part. That being said, Robbie's refusal to act in an adult manner in regards to Will and now about Jeanine's treatment is pushing me away from both of them. I can't tell if I think that Robbie is trying to use the Jeanine situation to get back at Will for coming out on top of Brad in their fight, although it was more of a Brad surrender in the end, or if there is some other issue in play.

 

The less said about JJ right now the better, I just can't deal with his issues right now.

 

I really want to see Will get back to Malibu and see what happens with Alistair. I can't see where this is leading but I do think that it maybe important to Will; I don't think Will finds Alistair attractive at all physically but I think he senses something there and I can't wait to see where Mark leads us.

 

 

p.s. Is anyone else having problems getting into the chapter reviews? This is the second chapter in a row that I can't seem to get into. I can get into older ones but not the last two... Any suggestions?

[methodwriter85]

There's something about Marie that sort of annoyed me in this chapter - she struck me as someone who thinks she's the cool one by rebelling and seemingly not "fitting in" while in reality she's really conforming to the mainstream version of "not fitting in". And that's before we even get to the $700 shoes...

 

MJ, she's 14. Wanting to think you're cool because of the way you dress is incredibly normal and common for that age. And her point is that people like Stefan and Ella will ONLY wear popular labels instead of going out of the box and trying and experimenting with new looks that mix and match different styles to create something edgy and cool. It's not that she refrains from designer stuff, either- just that not everything needs to match with her, because her style is more eclectic.

 

I was kind of surprised that Will didn't pick up a poor boyfriend from his tutoring days at the shelter...I'm liking the entry of Noah. He reads to me as a poor scholarship kid who is begrudingly but barely tolerated by the popular crowd, who scrimped and saved up for the one or two Abercrombie polo shirts he wears to try and fit in with Carter's clique. I like Will having a friend from the wrong side of the tracks. I mean, there was Gathan, but Gathan also got injected with a 5-million dollar trust fund and was about to go off to college anyway, so Will never really had a poor high school friend.

 

I also really liked the entry of Marie's crowd. As someone who tended to lean more towards the eclectic people in high school and parts of college, I liked the reminder that it's not just preppy jocks vs. nerds in high school...high school/college was much more nuanced than that stereotypical viewpoint of it. I think this is the first time since Mouse that Mark has depicted people who fell outside of either the preppy jock category or the surfer boy category, which I'm appreciative of.

Edited December 11, 2012 by methodwriter85

[B1ue]

He DID pick up a poor boyfriend. The hell was his name, Drew I think? Whoever, the formerly rich kid that Brad took in for a couple weeks.

 

Also, how old is Marie again? I had thought she was younger than she apparently is.

 

Edit: Ah, you gave Marie's age. Yeah, I'd thought she was about 11 or so.

Edited December 11, 2012 by B1ue

[PrivateTim]

I'm not sure that JP is Bohemian Grove material. That's probably a little too Republican for him. I can see Jack being involved, though, primarily through his own family connections.

 

Bohemian Grove is a lot less Republican than you might imagine, it is more about the power elites of both parties in government and business. Both Stanford and Cal are well represented.

[methodwriter85]

He DID pick up a poor boyfriend. The hell was his name, Drew I think? Whoever, the formerly rich kid that Brad took in for a couple weeks.

There's a big difference between "formerly rich" and someone who grew up with the mindset of being poor. Brad even noted that, in a sense, he was more comfortable with Drew because he didn't belong to the shelter crowd in Millenium; that there was something "different" about Drew that made him stand out among the kids there. And Drew went back to his family and private school life, and likely pretends that his time on the street never happened.

 

Also, how old is Marie again? I had thought she was younger than she apparently is.

 

Edit: Ah, you gave Marie's age. Yeah, I'd thought she was about 11 or so.

 

Marie was born April 18th, 1986- she's older than Will by about five months, but Will is kept in the same grade with her because of California's late kindergarten-cut off. In most states, Will would have been in the class of 2005 with John, who was born in July 1987 and is currently thirteen. And in JJ's case, if he had been born about five days earlier, he would have been in the class of 2003 instead of in 2004. Mark had me figuring out the ages and classes of this generation while we were on the late states of Millenium- Darius, Tony, and Gathan are the class of 2000, Ella is the class of 2001, Zach is the class of 2003, JJ, Marie, and Will are the class of 2004, and John's the class of 2005. Courtney Clearault would be the class of 2013, therefore a senior in high school right now. There isn't much overlap between her and John, but I wouldn't be surprised if Mark would up having characters who were born circa 1989-1992 to represent more late 2000's/early 2010's classes. Or we might just stop with high school stories once we get to John Hobart's graduation in '05, and the stories will just focus more on college kids/twentysomethings. It depends on how much of the 2000's Mark wants to skip or how much of a teenaged viewpoint on this decade Mark wants to have, I think.

 

I thought it was kind of cool how it worked out that both Brad and Claire have a set of Irish twins each- JJ and Will are 9 months apart, while Marie and John are about 15 months apart. I'm kind of surprised though that Claire and Jack didn't have more kids- they seemed like the type who would have had a big brood- at least three or four. That they stopped at two makes me wonder if Claire has some kind of career that just hasn't been mentioned.

 

As for Bohemian Grove, Hampton Sides wrote a pretty cool story about it that I read in my American Culture and Counterculture Class. The impression that he gave is that it's mostly middle-aged men and elderly men, so I'm not sure how much appeal that would be to Will...no college-aged guys to be jailbait for. LOL. *waits for Private Tim to correct me and insist that there's tons of hot young men from the elite families of California traispsing around there sans clothing for Will to get it on with*

Edited December 11, 2012 by methodwriter85

[PrivateTim]

The impression that he gave is that it's mostly middle-aged men and elderly men, so I'm not sure how much appeal that would be to Will...no college-aged guys to be jailbait for. LOL. *waits for Private Tim to correct me and insist that there's tons of hot young men from the elite families of California traispsing around there sans clothing for Will to get it on with*

 

Sorry I signed a confidentiallity waiver

[MJ85]

Wouldn't the existence of said confidentiality waiver be proof enough for his point?

 

There isn't much overlap between her and John, but I wouldn't be surprised if Mark would up having characters who were born circa 1989-1992 to represent more late 2000's/early 2010's classes. Or we might just stop with high school stories once we get to John Hobart's graduation in '05, and the stories will just focus more on college kids/twentysomethings. It depends on how much of the 2000's Mark wants to skip or how much of a teenaged viewpoint on this decade Mark wants to have, I think.

 

And it's assuming we ever get there. Millenium, which brought us into 2000, wrapped in March of last year, and at the rate we're going, by the time we get to this next March, we won't be far into 2001.