Paternity

[rjo]

Having been a teacher in a former life, the rule in Wisconsin was December 1st, however in others it was the beginning of the school year.  Parents  could hold back a child if they thought he or she was not ready for school. Some did most did not. I taught 5th and 6th grades so saw a wide range of ages in class.

Edited December 21, 2012 by rjo

[PrivateTim]

California Penal Code, Sections 261-269.

 

Even with all of Will's sexcapades, though, I don't imagine that this will ever actually come up. Not unless...not unless it's a scenario like I suggested above:

 

The question is not is it stautorially against the law, but would a police department ever investigate it and would a DA ever prosecute it. The answer, especially with two 9th grade boys, is no.

 

In the absence of other circumstances, acts of consensual sex in CA are rarely prosecuted. CA passed the Teenage Pregnancy Prevention Act of 1995 (oddly enough it wasn't actually passed until 1996) and that is partly where the 261.5 statues come from. They thought if they started prosecuting minors for sex that that would have a deterrant effect on teen sexual behavior (I know, they actually thought that).

 

The reality was that when they went to prosecute violations of the above statutes, starting with the most obvious offenders, pregnant minors and their impregnators, they got huge pushback in several communities. The reality of how it stands today is that unless there is a parent screaming at the police and DA's office, there will not be an investigation, let alone a prosecution. Even if there were screaming parents, if both participants are underage, the police or ADA would point out to the screaming parents that they would need to investigate and potentially prosecuteboth, not just one of the participants and that would usually end the screaming of the parents.

 

Can you imagine the reaction in police station or district attorney's office when a bitchy 14 year old JJ's goes to report that his younger brother is having sex with another 14 year old?

[MJ85]

LOL...given all that, I think I can.

 

Something like...equally bitchy, if not more?

[methodwriter85]

    See though, I just don't think JJ is enough of a schemer to even think of doing that. It would be funny, but I can't see it being likely. Because if JJ's brother got arrested for having minor sex, wouldn't that reflect badly on him? You gotta remember that JJ needs to maintain a Disney-friendly image at all times to stay in the good graces of the USAFSA, and accusng his brother of being a sex offender and trying to turn it into big hullaboo just doesn't fit into that.

[Mark M]

I really hope good things for Jeanne, cuz change is the worst for a Person with Bi-polar, IE: moving houses, moving atmosphears, stressed atmosphears, even if there uncomfortable (Hot humid out-door weather) Can screw things up, especially if there spoilt with Air conditioning. also to understand the simple things like the use of money, and what they can and can't buy also gets them in hot water, I'm kind of surprised there's been no "Manic" state other then a little bit in norway. the volience can be very dramatic and instantaneous too. So i hope Darius can look out for her, and get the regularities up. However! sucide is totally a big issue with them, it just depends when there mind is made up. I suggest no Rivers, pools, or anything that she can drowned herself in, cuz that's an easy way to go. Darius has his work cut out for him, myself i think an extravagent, totally supervised home would be the best place. Maybe since this family has money, they can start a home for families with people who have bi-polar. Gardens, choores, Craft days, bingo, just things for them to get together and soicalize, not only with bi-polar people but non-bi-polar people. My Mom loved doing things, it's when she stopped things got bad. They got to be kept busy that's for sure then they can't think about things and confused themselves. But NOT to the point of drugging them like they did to wade's grandmother, that's NOT the thing to do. but meds help I'm currious where you take this whole thing with jeanne, it's intriguing, especially since it directly relates to my younger life. However, I'm very surprised in Will, to turn around and take charge of his mom at 14 is definatly a mature thing, cuz i sure as hell didn't.

 

I also hope Will/Noah work out and this Tony/will thing dies in buring flames. I really don't like Tony, at all because he has feelings but not really lol. Robbie and JJ just need the D, then maybe they'll smarten up.

 

anyway What our christmas presents looking like this year mark???? :D

[JLK9N]

I'm one of Robbie's biggest fans, but I can't support his actions in this most recent chapter.  JJ should be able to invite (or exclude) whomever he wants for his birthday party (the one on Saturday) but Friday's dinner is for family, and that means everyone, including Will.  Even though Brad and Robbie have their favorites among the three boys, they are parents to all of them and have to teach them 'family values' from time to time.  In this case, JJ doesn't get to ban his brother from a family dinner, even for a birthday.  So, I am not happy with Robbie over allowing this to happen. 

 

I'm never all that happy with Will because of how he acts in general, but that's a whole 'nother story....

[MJ85]

After this chapter, I feel like we're waiting for that *SHOCKING!!!* moment where somehow they're at the hospital, and Will happens to overhear JJ and Jeanine talking, to the point where it basically reveals that it really is all about total control for JJ.

 

Even if that's not it, I'm sensing foreshadowing for yet another Big Dramatic Event involving Will and JJ, one that doesn't involve JJ's birthday. The hospital thing is just the first thing that came to my mind, even if it's not that likely to be the thing.

[B1ue]

I am not one of Robbie's biggest fans, but I can at least see the logic in asking Will to be the bigger man. In a way, it's kind of good for everyone. By asking Will to step aside, even for a family function, he's acknowleding that Will is the more mature brother, more willing to make sacrifices for the sake of family peace. That's going to have consequences, especially when Robbie finally does get a handle on his emotional reaction to the whole situation. And the entire rest of the family is going to remember that JJ pulled this crap.

 

I'm starting to wonder if JJ is shaping up to be another Billy after all. He may die, sure, but unlike Brad, Will actually is extending olive branches towards JJ, and JJ is the one being totally unreasonable.

[PrivateTim]

I also hope Will/Noah work out and this Tony/will thing dies in buring flames. I really don't like Tony, at all because he has feelings but not really lol. Robbie and JJ just need the D, then maybe they'll smarten up.

 

anyway What our christmas presents looking like this year mark???? :D

 

I really hope ANYTHING besides Tony works out for Will. More and more he is showing signs of the classic closet case, go out with the girlfriend until 11PM then head over to your FB's house to get your gay on. Even if Tony has a legit reason for not being available until 11PM, I still think he and Will are light years apart in their sexual identity maturity. Noah may not be certain where he is yet, but that would be normal for a 16 year old, less so for a college freshman, especially one with his background.

[PrivateTim]

I am not one of Robbie's biggest fans, but I can at least see the logic in asking Will to be the bigger man. In a way, it's kind of good for everyone. By asking Will to step aside, even for a family function, he's acknowleding that Will is the more mature brother, more willing to make sacrifices for the sake of family peace. That's going to have consequences, especially when Robbie finally does get a handle on his emotional reaction to the whole situation. And the entire rest of the family is going to remember that JJ pulled this crap.

 

I'm starting to wonder if JJ is shaping up to be another Billy after all. He may die, sure, but unlike Brad, Will actually is extending olive branches towards JJ, and JJ is the one being totally unreasonable.

 

Actually I think it shows what a total wimp Robbie is. When JJ whines to him about Will being at a FAMILY party, not the Saturday friends party, it is time to start attitude adjustment with JJ and start telling him about the dark, lonely future he is setting up for himself with his diva attitude.

[Mark Arbour]

I'm one of Robbie's biggest fans, but I can't support his actions in this most recent chapter.  JJ should be able to invite (or exclude) whomever he wants for his birthday party (the one on Saturday) but Friday's dinner is for family, and that means everyone, including Will.  Even though Brad and Robbie have their favorites among the three boys, they are parents to all of them and have to teach them 'family values' from time to time.  In this case, JJ doesn't get to ban his brother from a family dinner, even for a birthday.  So, I am not happy with Robbie over allowing this to happen. 

 

I'm never all that happy with Will because of how he acts in general, but that's a whole 'nother story....

 

You and Tim have both made this point, and I totally agree with you.  Within a few chapters, you'll find out that you're not the only ones who are unhappy about this.  

 

I think it's easy to be frustrated with Robbie, because Robbie is probably really frustrated with this whole situation.  He's trying to do what he thinks is right, by reaching out to JJ.  In essence, he's trying to step in and fill Jeanine's shoes, only JJ and Jeanine had a really twisted relationship, so Robbie's being sucked into that same vortex.  It's so easy for us to see it looking from the outside in, but from his perspective, things aren't as clear.  He feels the need to envelope, protect, and nurture JJ along, and because JJ's current modus operandi is to lock everyone else out of his life, Robbie ends up relatively isolated, alone with JJ.  

 

Raising kids isn't easy.  

[MJ85]

My thought is, as long as Will continues to hook up with basically any guy who's hot who even has a pulse, forget about anyone who's even currently on the radar as a long-term partner for him.

 

As for JJ...forget about telling him about any kind of consequences for the way he's acting now, and expecting him to listen. I'd see him cutting everyone else out of his life before even thinking of backing down now. He's the kid who'd make a perfect son for Elizabeth, rather than Wade or Beau.

[JLK9N]

You and Tim have both made this point, and I totally agree with you.  Within a few chapters, you'll find out that you're not the only ones who are unhappy about this.  

 

I think it's easy to be frustrated with Robbie, because Robbie is probably really frustrated with this whole situation.  He's trying to do what he thinks is right, by reaching out to JJ.  In essence, he's trying to step in and fill Jeanine's shoes, only JJ and Jeanine had a really twisted relationship, so Robbie's being sucked into that same vortex.  It's so easy for us to see it looking from the outside in, but from his perspective, things aren't as clear.  He feels the need to envelope, protect, and nurture JJ along, and because JJ's current modus operandi is to lock everyone else out of his life, Robbie ends up relatively isolated, alone with JJ.  

 

Raising kids isn't easy.  

Aint that it!  And, (why not suck up a bit to the author, right? ) in all seriousness, it's a tribute to your skills that we feel so much about these characters, whether it be good or bad.  So thanks for the ongoing gift of your writing, Mr. A.  

[Mark Arbour]

My thought is, as long as Will continues to hook up with basically any guy who's hot who even has a pulse, forget about anyone who's even currently on the radar as a long-term partner for him.

 

As for JJ...forget about telling him about any kind of consequences for the way he's acting now, and expecting him to listen. I'd see him cutting everyone else out of his life before even thinking of backing down now. He's the kid who'd make a perfect son for Elizabeth, rather than Wade or Beau.

 

I think that Will is going to continue to hook up with pretty much every hot guy he can until:

 

1.  He turns 30.

2.  He gets a real boyfriend.  

 

Can't say that I blame him for that at all!  

 

I think that with JJ, consequences are real and tangible to him.  He's being a very bitchy little diva, but when push comes to shove, he'll tow the line. Remember, he's conditioned to do that, yielding to authority, in his sport, and he doesn't have the luxury of creating a ruckus like Will did.  He has to worry about his image.  

[rjo]

It is sad Robbie has been sucked in by JJ. Many of the characters in the saga can decide on something quickly, but Robbie takes his time. It is not that he is dumb, just thoughtful. I think it drives Brad and Stef crazy, but that is the way he is. I think he is very worried about JJ. He remembers Billy, He does not want to loose him. In doing that however, he is only reenforcing JJ's bad behavior. We also must remember that JJ is 10 going on 15. Compared to Will 14 going on 25. I am wondering if JJ was the youngest would things have been different. At this point Mandy isn't in the picture. Will JJ feel threated by her too? Will's relationship with Mandy and Riley seems to be close, where as JJ, as far as we know, doesn't seem to care much about them. In ten years, what will happen to JJ? I agree with Jeremy he could be pretty lonely. Burning his bridges, he could be a lonely has been. How very sad.

[methodwriter85]

I really hope ANYTHING besides Tony works out for Will. More and more he is showing signs of the classic closet case, go out with the girlfriend until 11PM then head over to your FB's house to get your gay on. Even if Tony has a legit reason for not being available until 11PM, I still think he and Will are light years apart in their sexual identity maturity. Noah may not be certain where he is yet, but that would be normal for a 16 year old, less so for a college freshman, especially one with his background.

 

Yeah. Even though Tony blames his dad being gay for his death from AIDS, it's 2000 and he should realize by this point that being gay doesn't automatically equal AIDS. Sam's family seemed remarkably progressive for an Italian-Catholic family in the 1960's and 1970's(he still had a relationship with them rather than being cut-off), and the interaction with Tony's mother basically suggests that Tony's mother hasn't raised Tony with a homophobic attitude. St. Louis isn't exactly Mayberry, so it's not like Tony grew up in some narrow-minded small town like Claremont, either. So it's all because of Tony's outdated view of the AIDS epidemic that's causing all this internalized homophobia.

 

I can understand being closeted in a place like an all-boys Catholic school like Tony seemed to go to, but the fact that he's got almost an entire semester of college down where there's no doubt he's met openly gay people and he's still in deep denial is pretty annoying. I wouldn't have patience for that, and I have such a hard time understanding why someone would try so hard to be straight when they're not, to the point where they're hurting people.

 

Burning his bridges, he could be a lonely has been. How very sad.

 

 

   Well, techically, if JJ continues in this vein, he'll be a lonely never-was, because he'll never win an Olympic medal. There's a trainwreck aspect in watching someone basically sacrifice everything for something you know will never work out.

 

     I do like the idea that Robbie's attaching himself to JJ because in the back of his mind, he's remembering Billy.

 

I think that with JJ, consequences are real and tangible to him.  He's being a very bitchy little diva, but when push comes to shove, he'll tow the line. Remember, he's conditioned to do that, yielding to authority, in his sport, and he doesn't have the luxury of creating a ruckus like Will did.  He has to worry about his image. 

 

     It's going to be an interesting conflict for JJ growing up- how does he maintain a Disney-fied, wholesome image considering the kind of family he comes from? I mean, the dude won't even be able to smoke pot with Brad when he's 17 like Brad did with Darius. JJ's going to be subjected to random drug testing, which means that the only kind of drugs he'd experiment with are likely the ones that race through your body quick, like amphetamines. Pot takes too long to clear out, so I can't see JJ ever touching it.

Edited December 23, 2012 by methodwriter85

[MJ85]

See, this could be another reason why Tony has a more "fluid" sexuality or could be bisexual. Are we sure it's simply that he blames Sam's being gay and not his flat-out reckless behavior along with it? Either he's held himself back from really being able to know better, or else he's been given at least a better idea...but there's more to it. By now he definitely senses his own general attraction to guys...but what if he's still attracted to women as well? He'll have had no real frame of reference for being attracted to both sexes, and actually that could be even worse, because despite Sam's being gay, Sam did impregnante Tony's mother. That could make him fear that he's destined to be just like his father - is it any wonder that he'd hate any idea of same-sex attraction with that kind of fear? And never mind the bi-phobia that comes from some gay people even today...

[B1ue]

I can understand being closeted in a place like an all-boys Catholic school like Tony seemed to go to, but the fact that he's got almost an entire semester of college down where there's no doubt he's met openly gay people and he's still in deep denial is pretty annoying. I wouldn't have patience for that, and I have such a hard time understanding why someone would try so hard to be straight when they're not, to the point where they're hurting people.

I knew several guys that couldn't quite work out what they wanted their freshman year of college. Plus, it's not like the answer is completely nailed down even then. I was still attracted to and dating women when I was 18, my attraction to males didn't completely outpace that until I was about 19, I think there's some room for legitimate confusion.

[Westie]

Ok, so I have a few things to go through.... Firstly, Tony. I take exception to some of the comments made here about Tony. Some of them are really judgemental, talking about what Tony "should" realise etc. There is something about the gay community that I really despise and I think - whether consciously or not - we see it a lot here at GA. It's this perception that a guy who is still closeted is not quite a real gay - a second class gay if you like. People who are "out" and spent very little time in the closet seem to have this superior attitude and sit in judgment over those who go through more internal turmoil than others. I don't want to single people out and I'm sure it's subconscious but I read this above particularly in methodwriter's post. I hope I'm wrong about that. What methodwriter is saying here is all very logical... But you forget that when you are in the closet and struggling with a million tons of baggage from the past, rational thought is completely impossible. The heart doesn't feel - or in this case, FEAR - in a rational way. You can't talk about what Tony should or should not realise. 

 

That said, I do agree that the relationship between tony and Will is poisonous to both of them.

 

On to Robbie... This is a guy who has a natural tendency to let others take control. He is easily manipulated because he allows himself to be vulnerable emotionally. This is why he and Brad are so great together - whether he likes it or not Robbie needs someone to steer him in a way that he is incapable. The problem here is that Robbie is allowing other people to cloud his mind. JJ is manipulating him, and Robbie can't see it because he is trying to protect JJ... He see's JJ as vulnerable in a way that he actually isn't. He is manipulated by Janine because he needs to be liked and loved - so he confuses what she wants with what she needs. Most importantly, he still resents Brad being in control - mostly, I suspect, because he cannot face his incapability, and transfers this blame on Brad instead of himself. Moving on to Brad, this guy feels a massive weight of responsibility that is not his. When he is backed into a corner, his actions are explosive. It took Will to intervene in the last chapter to save the family from Brad's "nuclear option" by providing everyone with an exit that left nobody with egg on their faces.

 

Moving on to young Will - this guy is so like his father it's scary. He needs to be in control, and he has a massive temper. BUT - this is controlled somewhat by a more strategic mind. At the same time, compromise is not an option for him. He goes all out to win. What we saw in this latest chapter was Will achieving his goal - which was to ensure adequate care for his mother. The fact that the end solution allows him to keep her completely at arms length and not deal with her is actually a bonus for him. Having Darius appointed guardian actually was more selfish on Will's part than he might like to admit...

 

On to Darius... This guy is an enigma. He is honourable, responsible, yet his judgement is sometimes unpredictable. If the "Will" character is a progression of the "brad" we saw in the 1980's, then it follows in the same way that "Darius" is the new version of "Ace".

 

At this point, there is an interesting dynamic that we should consider, and that is Stefan and JP. Stefan is increasingly acting as a moral compass to the other characters, and you might see this as attempting now to deflect or even protect people from JP getting involved. The JP character has gone through many changes in the background of almost every story since Be Rad. Now he is getting older, the very fact that he has to get involved is more powerful than any action he might take. More so since he was ill and in hospital. So Stefan acts as his first line support - but does so with methods more reminiscent of Tonto's activism than the "smart power" practiced by the likes of "Grandmamen" Marie Crampton, and passed to her son JP.

 

It so happens that the real leader of this family - or rather the emerging leader - is the only true child of JP. Exceptional judgement and almost universally respected, Claire is the new matriarch in waiting. She has all the best qualities of Marie Crampton, JP, Isidore and Sam. Cool, calm and controlled, she is above the mere squabbles of Brad, Robbie, Will Et all. I suspect that is Stefan is JP's first line, then Claire is the special forces element of the family arsenal.

 

As for what I would like to happen next... I'm not sure. I like to be surprised by Mark. I know that some of this will go in a direction none of us expect... My own feeling is though that since millennium ended these stories are much more soap like - with many smaller plots instead of one over-arching story. I know some of you like this evolution, and your view is valid. But I for one would like the next story to be another... Adventure. If that makes sense.

 

Anyway, enough of my ramblings... I'm off to watch "the grinch" in Czech with my in laws...

Edited December 23, 2012 by Westie

[rjo]

Of all the comments which have been left here over the years Westies's comment is the best I have ever read, His thoughtful comments are right on in my mind. I salute you sir. I have nothing to add because he said and did very thing that needed to be said.

Edited December 24, 2012 by rjo

[PrivateTim]

It isn't about being judgmental about Tony if he decides to be in the closet, it is being judgmental about wanting to have your cake and eat it too. If the extent of your gayness is getting it on behind closed doors with guys you find hot and then only late at night after you've gotten your straight groove on, it is wrong. It is doubly wrong with someone you know likes you a lot and is maybe hoping one day you'll come around.

 

I've seen a lot of great guys get strung along by these kind of guys, sometimes for years and even AFTER the guy has married a woman. A couple of friends of mine in particular went through this, passing up a lot of guys they could have been happy with. In one tragic case, my friend eventually swallowed a mess of pills and whiskey to end the pain of seven years of this kind of relation. Yes, he was responsible for his own actions, but the guy who was stringing him along certainly saw all the damage he was doing and didn't care, he was all about his own pleasure.

 

I see Tony through this jaundiced lense.

[Mark M]

JJ Needs the D. In my opinion, Enough said.

[Mark Arbour]

I have to totally agree with RJO.  I'm really pissed off that I ran out of "likes", but I'll catch up tomorrow when my quota is reset.  But you got a "like" from Sharon, and she passes those things out like Scrooge hands out gold coins, so that counts for a lot more anyway.

 

Ok, so I have a few things to go through.... Firstly, Tony. I take exception to some of the comments made here about Tony. Some of them are really judgemental, talking about what Tony "should" realise etc. There is something about the gay community that I really despise and I think - whether consciously or not - we see it a lot here at GA. It's this perception that a guy who is still closeted is not quite a real gay - a second class gay if you like. People who are "out" and spent very little time in the closet seem to have this superior attitude and sit in judgment over those who go through more internal turmoil than others. I don't want to single people out and I'm sure it's subconscious but I read this above particularly in methodwriter's post. I hope I'm wrong about that. What methodwriter is saying here is all very logical... But you forget that when you are in the closet and struggling with a million tons of baggage from the past, rational thought is completely impossible. The heart doesn't feel - or in this case, FEAR - in a rational way. You can't talk about what Tony should or should not realise. 

 

That said, I do agree that the relationship between tony and Will is poisonous to both of them.

 

On to Robbie... This is a guy who has a natural tendency to let others take control. He is easily manipulated because he allows himself to be vulnerable emotionally. This is why he and Brad are so great together - whether he likes it or not Robbie needs someone to steer him in a way that he is incapable. The problem here is that Robbie is allowing other people to cloud his mind. JJ is manipulating him, and Robbie can't see it because he is trying to protect JJ... He see's JJ as vulnerable in a way that he actually isn't. He is manipulated by Janine because he needs to be liked and loved - so he confuses what she wants with what she needs. Most importantly, he still resents Brad being in control - mostly, I suspect, because he cannot face his incapability, and transfers this blame on Brad instead of himself. Moving on to Brad, this guy feels a massive weight of responsibility that is not his. When he is backed into a corner, his actions are explosive. It took Will to intervene in the last chapter to save the family from Brad's "nuclear option" by providing everyone with an exit that left nobody with egg on their faces.

 

Moving on to young Will - this guy is so like his father it's scary. He needs to be in control, and he has a massive temper. BUT - this is controlled somewhat by a more strategic mind. At the same time, compromise is not an option for him. He goes all out to win. What we saw in this latest chapter was Will achieving his goal - which was to ensure adequate care for his mother. The fact that the end solution allows him to keep her completely at arms length and not deal with her is actually a bonus for him. Having Darius appointed guardian actually was more selfish on Will's part than he might like to admit...

 

On to Darius... This guy is an enigma. He is honourable, responsible, yet his judgement is sometimes unpredictable. If the "Will" character is a progression of the "brad" we saw in the 1980's, then it follows in the same way that "Darius" is the new version of "Ace".

 

At this point, there is an interesting dynamic that we should consider, and that is Stefan and JP. Stefan is increasingly acting as a moral compass to the other characters, and you might see this as attempting now to deflect or even protect people from JP getting involved. The JP character has gone through many changes in the background of almost every story since Be Rad. Now he is getting older, the very fact that he has to get involved is more powerful than any action he might take. More so since he was ill and in hospital. So Stefan acts as his first line support - but does so with methods more reminiscent of Tonto's activism than the "smart power" practiced by the likes of "Grandmamen" Marie Crampton, and passed to her son JP.

 

It so happens that the real leader of this family - or rather the emerging leader - is the only true child of JP. Exceptional judgement and almost universally respected, Claire is the new matriarch in waiting. She has all the best qualities of Marie Crampton, JP, Isidore and Sam. Cool, calm and controlled, she is above the mere squabbles of Brad, Robbie, Will Et all. I suspect that is Stefan is JP's first line, then Claire is the special forces element of the family arsenal.

 

As for what I would like to happen next... I'm not sure. I like to be surprised by Mark. I know that some of this will go in a direction none of us expect... My own feeling is though that since millennium ended these stories are much more soap like - with many smaller plots instead of one over-arching story. I know some of you like this evolution, and your view is valid. But I for one would like the next story to be another... Adventure. If that makes sense.

 

Anyway, enough of my ramblings... I'm off to watch "the grinch" in Czech with my in laws...

 

If I made observations on every point, it would just be cheerleading, but I will make one comment on Will.  You mentioned his all-or-nothing approach, and inability to compromise.  Wade pointed this out to him during the emancipation drama, noting that he tended to see things in black and white, and there weren't shades of gray.  I don't know that he will ever really change how he looks at things, but I think that as he matures, he will be able to compromise more.  I thought this latest round, picking Darius as the leader, was an example of that evolution.  

 

I recall a charming Czech man who used to hang around in these forums, and he would exhibit a maddening ability to get into my mind and read where I was going.  Seems you have found a way to, uh, channel his abilities.    Does that mean we're having a psychic threesome?   

Edited December 23, 2012 by Mark Arbour

[Mark Arbour]

Yeah. Even though Tony blames his dad being gay for his death from AIDS, it's 2000 and he should realize by this point that being gay doesn't automatically equal AIDS. Sam's family seemed remarkably progressive for an Italian-Catholic family in the 1960's and 1970's(he still had a relationship with them rather than being cut-off), and the interaction with Tony's mother basically suggests that Tony's mother hasn't raised Tony with a homophobic attitude. St. Louis isn't exactly Mayberry, so it's not like Tony grew up in some narrow-minded small town like Claremont, either. So it's all because of Tony's outdated view of the AIDS epidemic that's causing all this internalized homophobia.

 

I can understand being closeted in a place like an all-boys Catholic school like Tony seemed to go to, but the fact that he's got almost an entire semester of college down where there's no doubt he's met openly gay people and he's still in deep denial is pretty annoying. I wouldn't have patience for that, and I have such a hard time understanding why someone would try so hard to be straight when they're not, to the point where they're hurting people.

 

OK, I was going to just let this fly by, but I think this needs to be addressed.  

 

First off, St. Louis can be a narrow-minded town just like Claremont.  Tony grew up in suburban St. Louis, and went to a Catholic Boy's School.  I don't remember if I said which one.  During his young years, he would have been raised in "The Hill," the Italian section of the city.  St. Louis is unique in that the city itself divorced the county a long time ago, so the city of St. Louis is not actually in St. Louis County.  That's created two entirely different cultures.  You have an inner city, which has the usual problems big cities have, ringed by an affluent county, which is loathe to share it's money with the city unless it's for things like parks, zoos, or athletic teams.  And of course, there are strong racial undercurrents to this whole structure.  The city is extremely segregated.  North St. Louis is almost exclusively black, while the South side used to be all white, but is now more integrated.  The County follows these patterns, with North County being integrated, South County being mostly white, and West County also being mostly white, but also containing the region's wealthiest areas.  East is Illinois, which is separated by the Mississippi River, but might as well be separated by an ocean.  

The power and politics are consolidated into the hands of the good old boy network.  Social mobility is not a huge force.  If you are born wealthy, you will probably remain wealthy, even if you are an idiot.  If you are born poor, the odds are stacked against you.  Tradition rules, and innovation is viewed with suspicion in the ruling circles.  But St. Louis does not exist in a vacuum, even though it seems that way.  The city itself is home to a thriving gay community, and has a gay bar or two. But that doesn't mean that being gay is considered "normal" or "good", at least not in the 90's, when Tony was growing up.  

 

Tony's family is Italian, and Catholic.  It's hard to imagine two cultural backgrounds that are more homophobic, although perhaps I'm disparaging Italian-Americans too much with that.  All you have to do is listen to the latest rants by the current Pope, or look at how the Catholic church so aggressively funded California's Proposition 8 campaign.  

 

Tony's father was ostensibly bisexual, and lived with a man, as his partner, for over ten years before marrying his mother.  Because his father wasn't able to ultimately deal with his gay side, he cheated on Tony's mother, contracted AIDS, and left Tony without a father for most of his life.  Tony's memories of his father would have been as a 5 year old boy.  He probably last saw him laying in the hospital in the final throes of that dreaded disease. He isn't blaming AIDS on gay people, he KNOWS his father caught AIDS from a gay guy, from Jake.

 

Sam's family was clearly very proud of him, probably because of his success in the academic world, and because he took care of his family.  Here's a guy who made it big, then came back to St. Louis and bought his parents a new Oldsmobile.  Don't think that Mr. and Mrs. Carbone didn't brag about that to all of their friends.  I would suspect that Tony's family chose to ignore his gayness, and the way he died, and to focus instead on the positive things he did.  He left his wife widowed at a young age, and left two young children behind, but he left enough money to make sure they were well-provided for.  They probably view his legacy with mixed emotions, and choose to forget the negative parts of it.  The things that Tony learned about his father (how he fucked Jake, etc.) were probably learned from eavesdropping on bitter adult conversations held behind closed doors with only family members involved.  Unless he accidentally walked in on Jake and Sam while Sam was changing the oil in Oldsmobile, so to speak.  

 

I don't see that Tony has an outdated view of AIDS as the gay epidemic, and I don't see that he's homophobic. He blames AIDS for taking his father from him, and he blames his father for being a cheating slime ball, and giving into his gay desires that ultimately caused him to contract that disease.   He feels those same desires in himself, and he hates that part of himself.  He is fighting an enormous internal battle, one that many closeted men have fought.  On the one hand, he has the entire crushing force of his family, his heritage, and his background, proclaiming that he should be a nice, straight Italian boy who marries a nice Italian girl and have nice Italian-American babies.  On the other hand, he's got urges and hormones screaming at him, telling him to fuck another guy.  Like many young guys, he can channel those drives into sex of any kind, into sex with a woman, but that won't satisfy him like sex with a man would.  He's had a semester at school to change his attitudes, and we've seen him change in the way he relates to Will, but it's not enough to overcome all the conditioning he's had.  

 

What you are expecting from him is so far beyond where he's at.  He has a long way to go to get there, if he ever does.  

Edited December 23, 2012 by Mark Arbour

[methodwriter85]

   Yeah, like I said, on an intellectual level I get it. But I don't understand it emotionally, because I've never been at that place. It's not that I don't feel bad for Tony, but a part of me thinks that he shouldn't be taking that long, and a part of me really takes Tim's viewpoint on this. I get that I shouldn't find Tony's journey annoying, but...I don't know. The classic tortured closet case angst story has been done sooooo many times, and I'm just more interested in Will's journey as the new vanguard of that first generation of gay guys who really could say they were never in a closet, because I relate to that more. I've been out since I was 14, I've only lost a friend or two for being gay, and the general reaction I've gotten from people for being gay is "It's whatever".

 

     I'm not saying that Tony's story isn't important and I get why it's there, but I'm just not particularly enamored by yet another tale of the tortured closet case who sleeps with men on the side while maintaining a straight facade to people. That was edgy  and groundbreaking on Melrose Place back in 1994; not quite so much anymore. At the same time, I think it's good for Mark to explore such a storyline, as I'm sure there are people who can relate to it.

Edited December 23, 2012 by methodwriter85