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Posted

I was just watching Curb Your Enthusiasm and David's manager says that

 

"There is no such thing as an effeminate man, you're either gay or you're not."

 

What do you think?

 

Is it possible that someone as out there as Harvey Fierstein could be straight?

 

We've all seen the married Harvey's with kids. :thumbdown:

Posted
I was just watching Curb Your Enthusiasm and David's manager says that

 

"There is no such thing as an effeminate man, you're either gay or you're not."

 

What do you think?

 

Is it possible that someone as out there as Harvey Fierstein could be straight?

 

We've all seen the married Harvey's with kids. :thumbdown:

 

 

 

I know it's a dumb question, but we've all asked it countless time. There's even a thread where they discuss the host of American Idol, who I don't think is.

Posted (edited)
I know it's a dumb question, but we've all asked it countless time. There's even a thread where they discuss the host of American Idol, who I don't think is.

 

 

I know you're reading this.. Why no replies?

 

Is it too sophomoric or sophomoronic to warrant a reply?

 

Obviously I don't think so, since I am now discussing this with myself. And I am not interested in post self debating or posterbating.......

Edited by dyanov
Posted
I know you're reading this.. Why no replies?

 

Is it too sophomoric or sophomoronic to warrant a reply?

 

Obviously I don't think so, since I am now discussing this with myself. And I am not interested in post self debating or posterbating.......

Hey Dyan :D

 

Perphaps no one with an opinion about it has read it yet. There's always only a small fraction of people who actually read a post that reply to it. I actually don't know who you mean, I don't watch tv, and haven't since before that show came on I'm afraid :( . Though I have heard good things about it.

 

In general I don't think I'd agree with the "either or" line that he seems to be drawing. I'm a complete relativist; nothing is ever completely black and white as far as I'm concerned. What about bisexuals? Metrosexuals? People who identify one way or the other but might have the occasional random attraction? Some straight guys are effiminate and some gay guys are really butch. And that's what makes life so fun and unpredictable anyway ;)

 

Well have an awesome day and take care! :D

Kevin

Posted
In general I don't think I'd agree with the "either or" line that he seems to be drawing. I'm a complete relativist; nothing is ever completely black and white as far as I'm concerned. What about bisexuals? Metrosexuals? People who identify one way or the other but might have the occasional random attraction? Some straight guys are effiminate and some gay guys are really butch. And that's what makes life so fun and unpredictable anyway ;)

 

Well have an awesome day and take care! :D

Kevin

 

 

Thanks for a really good, intelligent response.

I agree with you that people fall into the many shades between black and white.

 

What I was looking at was the case of a man who denies any attraction to men, but who nonetheless presents himself like Harvey Fierstein. (I don't mean to pick on Harvey, but I am just using him as an example whom we all kow.)

 

 

I just want to hear peoples' visceral reactions. If you met Harvey Fierstein andhe told you he was straight would you believe him? I think almost all of us would not. Now we would not know how gay he was, where he would land on the line, but would anybody believe he is completely straight? Would you?

 

 

I know we have no way of knowing, and how we view Harvey is interpreted through our own lenses, and therefore my point defies a logical proof. However, I am examining whether we are all of us -- ragrdless of sexual orientation -- operating under a prejudice, that prejudice being to interpret a person's sexual orientation through their mannerism, how they present themselves.

Posted
.

 

As best I can understand it, his statement is illogical and based on erroneous premises.

 

"There is no such thing as an effeminate man" and "you're either gay or you're not":

 

1. are both incorrect statements, and

2. have no logical relationship to each other.

 

The term "effeminate" is generally used in our culture in a derogatory manner and is also extremely sexist. Given all of the possible permutations of sexuality/gender orientation, which are becoming more and more common and acceptable (as Kevin mentioned), IMO the concept of "effeminacy" is losing its relevance.

 

That said, going by the dictionary definition of "effeminate" to mean a man who has an excess of "feminine" characteristics (looks or behavior), there most certainly do exist effeminate men. Some identify as gay, some as straight, and some anything in between. Up until recently, I lived in the Deep South U.S., and it is full of "effeminate" men, and most of them identify as straight straight straight. (As to whether they really are, who knows? Some probably are, and some aren't. Ironically, but maybe not coincidentally, even though the Southern culture is very homophobic, many Southern men tend to display a lot of feminine characteristics.)

 

As far as I'm concerned, "effeminacy" and sexuality are two totally separate concepts. The two certainly overlap, but you can't predict one from the other.

 

Also, what I hear clearly in the above statement is the speaker equating "man" with "heterosexual". A definite statement of heterosexual male privilege.

 

 

I think your question illustrates that trying to decipher someone's sexual orientation based on looks or behavior (or marital status) won't get you very far nowadays.

 

Maybe it depends on what your definition of "is" is. :P

 

To throw the ball back into your court, dyanov, how do you interpret what David's manager said?

 

BTW, I don't think this is a sophomoric question at all. Could be the reason you haven't gotten many replies is because it is a complex (and IMO fascinating) subject.

 

Kitty

 

 

You really took the time to work through this complicated topic. And your reply has helped me to clarify my own thinking.

I agree with you that the equation of man with hetrosexual is unfortunate. I think what David's manager meant was "there is no such thing as an effeminate straight male." (and perhaps he might have even used the word straight in the show, but I didn't catch it.

I also agree with you that while there is an overlap between effeminacy and orientation the former is not a reliable predictor of the latter.

 

And you are right to point out the vagaries of the word "effeminate." It's meaning is not precise or clear, and it is generally a derogatory word in our society.

 

What am I looking at, is whether the equation of "effeminacy" and "gay" is just a prejudice.

If it is completely a prejudice, then it is shared by almost everyone in our society, regardles of sexual orientation. On these forums there is a topic is "Ryan Seacrest Gay?"

 

Let me ask you the direct question. Would you believe that Harvey Fierstein was straight, had no sexual inclinations towards other men?

And if you assumed that Harvey could not be straight, would you characterize your response as a prejudice?

Posted
Let me ask you the direct question. Would you believe that Harvey Fierstein was straight, had no sexual inclinations towards other men?

And if you assumed that Harvey could not be straight, would you characterize your response as a prejudice?

I really don't have an opinion about the man myself, to be completely honest I have no idea what he even looks like. You said that he's Larry David's manager?? I know who Larry David is, and wouldn't think him gay, but I really don't know Fierstein.

 

Assuming however, that I did characterize him as gay (at least to some degree) based on his appearance and mannerisms I would definitely not categorize my conclusion as a prejudice. I hold no negative opinions toward "effiminate" men, "butch" women, "typical" people, very "masculine" men, nor very "feminine" women. So if I concluded that he acted effiminate, and therefore must/might be gay then I would readily admit that my perception was a conditioned response from the society I live in. Clearly the general, pervasive societal beliefs regarding behaviour and sexuality (whether right or wrong) has leaked into my psyche and would be affecting my judgement. However, since this judgement would not, for me, come attached to any sort of value statement about the behaviour/orientation then I wouldn't actually call it a prejudice.

 

I realize I'm probably missing the actual point of this thread completely. Which I'm assuming isn't so much to argue whether or not behaviour/mannerisms predict orientation, nor is it to debate the value and correctness of these interpertations. I realize the main point is probably just to debate the specific case of Harvey Fierstein's sexuality (as per the Ryan Seacrest thread); however, unfortunately I really can't make an actual statement about that :( .

 

I have enjoyed the discussion I've had with you and Kitty thus far though, even if that isn't exactly the "point".

 

Anyway take care and have a great day :)

Kevin

Posted
I realize I'm probably missing the actual point of this thread completely. Which I'm assuming isn't so much to argue whether or not behaviour/mannerisms predict orientation, nor is it to debate the value and correctness of these interpertations. I realize the main point is probably just to debate the specific case of Harvey Fierstein's sexuality (as per the Ryan Seacrest thread); however, unfortunately I really can't make an actual statement about that :( .

 

 

Kevin

 

 

You need to google harvey fierstein.

Actually I am only using poor Harvey as my criteria for "effeminate."

The point of this thread is self-education about my own prejudices, my own assumptions about peoples sexual orientation. I am learning that my belief that I can tell someone's sexual orientation just by looking at them, can be misleading. I'm also learning that many people share this prejudice regardles of their sexual oreintation. It is just as pervasie in the gay community as any other segment of society.

 

What do you think ?

Posted
lol Why do I get the feeling we might have a little bit of a "generation gap" going on here? :D;)

 

Harvey Fierstein is a very accomplished actor, writer, playwright ("Torch Song Trilogy"), producer, and Tony award winner ("Hairspray"). I had the impression that Harvey Fierstein has been around forever, but when I checked out his biography, lo and behold, he is actually a tad younger than I am *yikes*. Or maybe it just seems like I've been around forever ^_^ .

 

dyanov, I've been ruminating on this today while I've been going about my business, and as soon as I get some thoughts together, I'll make another post.

 

Kitty :)

 

edited to add: I imagine Harvey Fierstein would be quite amused to think that people were debating his sexuality.

 

Thank you for coming to the resuce. I incorrectly assumed that everyone on this site would know who Harvey is.

I think you are right it is generational.

 

Poor Harvey is wondering why am I picking on him. Why have I chosen him to be the poster boy for all that is "effeminate." Actaully Harvey has a completely unique voice, its raspy and chock full of gravel.

 

I imagine Harvey getting a hold of me and confronting me face to face,"Do you think this is funny?"

Posted
lol Why do I get the feeling we might have a little bit of a "generation gap" going on here? :D;)

 

Harvey Fierstein is a very accomplished actor, writer, playwright ("Torch Song Trilogy"), producer, and Tony award winner ("Hairspray"). I had the impression that Harvey Fierstein has been around forever, but when I checked out his biography, lo and behold, he is actually a tad younger than I am *yikes*. Or maybe it just seems like I've been around forever ^_^ .

 

dyanov, I've been ruminating on this today while I've been going about my business, and as soon as I get some thoughts together, I'll make another post.

 

Kitty :)

 

edited to add: I imagine Harvey Fierstein would be quite amused to think that people were debating his sexuality.

Actually having checked out that link of Kitty's, I do know who he is. I just didn't recognize the name at first. I'd say it's iffy either way personally.

Posted

NOW I REMEMBER HIM. He was the gay brother on Mrs. Doubtfire! AWESOME MOVIE!! As far as his sexuality goes, I have only that movie to go on, and as far as I know, that was all acting.

Posted
NOW I REMEMBER HIM. He was the gay brother on Mrs. Doubtfire! AWESOME MOVIE!! As far as his sexuality goes, I have only that movie to go on, and as far as I know, that was all acting.

 

What is the world coming to when even the sexual orientation of Harvey "Torch Song Trilogy" Fierstein is questioned on a gay site.

 

I gues it means what every one has been telling me. You can't tell nothing about nothing from anything.

 

But I swear I thought Harvey was gay. And even Harvey swears he is gay. But i guess that just because a guy has never had a sexual relation with a woman, has only male lovers, swears up and down he is gay, is a gay icon, doesn't mean he is really gay.

 

After all he could secretly have a wife and kids in the suburbs. And no one would ever suspect.

 

 

I bet half the people we think are gay are leading a double straight life.

Posted
What is the world coming to when even the sexual orientation of Harvey "Torch Song Trilogy" Fierstein is questioned on a gay site.

 

I gues it means what every one has been telling me. You can't tell nothing about nothing from anything.

 

But I swear I thought Harvey was gay. And even Harvey swears he is gay. But i guess that just because a guy has never had a sexual relation with a woman, has only male lovers, swears up and down he is gay, is a gay icon, doesn't mean he is really gay.

 

After all he could secretly have a wife and kids in the suburbs. And no one would ever suspect.

I bet half the people we think are gay are leading a double straight life.

 

 

Where's Kitty she promised to come back and reply to this.

And what about the rest of you.

Posted
Where's Kitty she promised to come back and reply to this.

And what about the rest of you.

LOL I was just thinking how amusing it was that this ENTIRE thread has consisted of only the four of us (me, Dyanov, Kitty, and RK) talking amongst ourselves.

Posted
LOL I was just thinking how amusing it was that this ENTIRE thread has consisted of only the four of us (me, Dyanov, Kitty, and RK) talking amongst ourselves.

 

Around 4 people is the maximum that engage in a conversation in which everyone gets to be heard and listened to.

 

I'm just happy that I am not talking to myself..... again.

Posted
But I swear I thought Harvey was gay. And even Harvey swears he is gay. But i guess that just because a guy has never had a sexual relation with a woman, has only male lovers, swears up and down he is gay, is a gay icon, doesn't mean he is really gay.

 

After all he could secretly have a wife and kids in the suburbs. And no one would ever suspect.

I bet half the people we think are gay are leading a double straight life.

 

That's really funny.

 

I've not said anything in this thread before because I don't really have anything much to say on the topic. I realize that I rarely let that stop me in other threads.

 

As I think over the folk whom I know to be gay, I don't see a lot of pattern. Hardly any of them would I call effiminate, and I don't think they are "acting straight," but just being themselves. I've known guys who were sort of swishy who I can easily believe are about as straight as one can get. I even wonder if sometimes effiminate gays are the ones putting on an act. A guy told me about his real estate agent who had been a big college football star (maybe went on the the pros--I dont' recall). He said the agent had now adopted a very stereotypically gay manner. Well, which is the real person, the macho football player or the large swishy real estate agent? Both? Neither?

Posted
That's really funny.

 

I've not said anything in this thread before because I don't really have anything much to say on the topic. I realize that I rarely let that stop me in other threads.

 

As I think over the folk whom I know to be gay, I don't see a lot of pattern. Hardly any of them would I call effiminate, and I don't think they are "acting straight," but just being themselves. I've known guys who were sort of swishy who I can easily believe are about as straight as one can get. I even wonder if sometimes effiminate gays are the ones putting on an act. A guy told me about his real estate agent who had been a big college football star (maybe went on the the pros--I dont' recall). He said the agent had now adopted a very stereotypically gay manner. Well, which is the real person, the macho football player or the large swishy real estate agent? Both? Neither?

 

 

Nice that you came out, out for this thread. Glad to have you join us.

Well this whole thread only proves that all of us, but especially me, can never be certain of anything. And I'm not even sure that I can be certain of my own uncertainty.

Posted (edited)
Nice that you came out, out for this thread. Glad to have you join us.

Well this whole thread only proves that all of us, but especially me, can never be certain of anything. And I'm not even sure that I can be certain of my own uncertainty.

 

 

I just took a test that said i am 80% girlish.

 

http://www.blogthings.com/howboyishorgirlishareyouquiz/

 

try it yourself

Edited by dyanov
Posted

70% boyish

 

You reject traditional gender roles. However, you don't actively fight them.

You're just you. You don't try to be what people expect you to be.

Posted

90% boyish, w00t.

 

As for Harvey, did he says he was gay? I wouldn't know. Hell if Brad Pitt came out, I wouldn't know it, but that has more to do with him being fugly than it does anything else.

Posted

You Are 60% Boyish and 40% Girlish

You are pretty evenly split down the middle - a total eunuch.

Okay, kidding about the eunuch part. But you do get along with both sexes.

You reject traditional gender roles.
However, you don't actively fight them.

You're just you.
You don't try to be what people expect you to be.

 

About what I would have expected, and I definitely do reject traditional gender roles and just want people to be themselves.

 

I even wonder if sometimes effiminate gays are the ones putting on an act.

I've wondered this myself. Not that I think they're trying to actively "fool" anyone, I just think some may go overboard (more than they'd naturally be) because that's how they think they're supposed to act. I don't have a problem with it if they're happy though, and I definitely don't mind the naturally effiminate.

 

A guy told me about his real estate agent who had been a big college football star (maybe went on the the pros--I dont' recall). He said the agent had now adopted a very stereotypically gay manner. Well, which is the real person, the macho football player or the large swishy real estate agent? Both? Neither?

Hmmm, I think I'd go with "people change and may behave differently throughout their lives".

 

Hell if Brad Pitt came out, I wouldn't know it, but that has more to do with him being fugly than it does anything else.

I think he's kinda hot. Although when I watched Mr. & Mrs. Smith I was more into Angelina Jolie (but she's one of my all time favourite female celebrity crushes). But I'd definitely have been more into him in his "better days"; he was much cuter with longer hair and no facial hair...but then again that's typically my opinion about all guys :P (just typically though, and I don't like really long hair, to the shoulder is actually longer than I usually like)

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