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OMG!!!! i can't believe that you have done that to poor toby. He better get well... if you let him die i'll have to go over to tw and kick your ass.... lol just joking. But we love our toby and he better get well soon. I think tobys death would devistate connor even more than anything that he has been through in his whole life. But anyway... i am glad that ryan and connors vacation was awesome... and i loved how you made elton john wink at them when he saw that they were holding hands... that was awesome. Anyway... what is up with Ryan why is he being so distant.

 

Any way i about to make a prediction about that... Ryan is being so distant because he is afraid that if he remains close to toby and he loses him that it will hurt him even more than it wouldnt if he kept his distance. I really dont think that it is anything to do with jealiousy... so it has to do with some internal conflict of ryan.

 

anyway... great chapter david :2thumbs:

 

later ~ nick :read:

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Hey everyone!

 

Awesome chapter :)

 

Any way i about to make a prediction about that... Ryan is being so distant because he is afraid that if he remains close to toby and he loses him that it will hurt him even more than it wouldnt if he kept his distance. I really dont think that it is anything to do with jealiousy... so it has to do with some internal conflict of ryan.

 

I think you're right, Nick, that it isn't so much a matter of jealousy as it is an internal conflict; however, I think what Ryan is dealing with is more along the lines of denial.

 

 

"He's really gonna be okay, babe,"
....and you're freaking out about this when I already told you there is absolutely nothing to worry about,"

 

There is something to worry about. It's important to maintain a positive attitude, but this is life threatening. Ryan's refusing to give it the gravity that it deserves. I personally think this is because he feels like there's nothing he can do. As was so often pointed out by Connor in this chapter, Ryan has always been very protective of Toby. Yet there's no way for him to "protect" Toby against this.

 

Well, I'm his brother. I'll take care of him, so just drop it,...

 

Clearly Ryan feels the responsibility to protect Toby, but he can't. So instead he's refusing to acknowledge the seriousness of the situation. If Toby does die **hides behind the hedges to avoid getting stoned** , or just get really near death, I predict a major emotional scene involving Ryan crying and trying to explain his feelings to Connor.

***

I thought Connor and Ryan's first time was very well-written, powerful, and...HOT :boy: . However, I was troubled by two things, one of which was the condom issue, but Kitty's excellent note at the end resolved that for me. The other issue was actually an on-going concern from the last couple of chapters: why couldn't Ryan have just bottomed? Sure he made the offer after it was all over, and I'm sure he would. But it seems obvious to me that someone who's been raped is probably not the best person to bottom the first few times. It is important that Connor gets over this, and for that reason it may actually be important that he does bottom again, if for nothing more than his psychological health. However, to me it would make more sense if they'd eased into that more with their sexual relationship beginning with Ryan bottoming. After Connor had gotten used to sex as a healthy, positive experience I think the transition would have been easier. But it worked out I suppose, and it was an EXCELLENT scene!

***

I was also slightly disapointed with the completely negative attention Christianity recieved in this chapter.

 

The most vocal had been the school's Young Christian Club, which had their own booth at the fair, where they were passing out booklets about the impending "Second Coming" and "family values" or some crap like that.

Not all Christians are anti-gay, many groups are actually accepting. The entire matter is very debatable and any Christian (or gay activist) who tells you otherwise is unfairly simplifying the issue.

 

Also most Christians I've known aren't especially focused on the "Second Coming"/rapture/apocalypse. The issue has been recieving more attention in recent years due to the Left Behind series, but while that is usually a central part of Christian dogma, it's actually a pretty "hot issue" too, and also very open to interpretation.

 

Furthermore, I thought Connor wearing a gaudy gold crucifix with the main objective being to tick of Christians was just wrong. That's openly mocking someone's faith, and no faith, IMO, deserves to be openly mocked. It would have been an entirely different matter if he identified with some aspects of Christianity and was wearing it as part of his own spirituality (like Cody and his eclectic, yet respectful spiritualism). If that were the case then it would be entirely wrong for the Christians to redicule him on this point, he has the right to express his spirituality in any means he pleases. It would even have been one thing if he'd just wanted to wear it for no motivation other than thinking it was "pretty", but to wear it for the purpose of mockery leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

***

The other thing I wanted to mention (and would have had I been able to comment on the last chapter), is that the phallic shaped cake (which I thought was really amusing and got a huge kick out of) is not a concept completely hitherto undiscussed at Gay Authors. Bits and Pieces , was a blog entry done by reapersharvest on Jan. 6th . It was quite amusing! Anyway I was delighted to see the concept returning :lmao: . I also don't mean to imply that I don't think it was an original idea; I do. It's such a fun notion that I'm sure lots of people have come up with it independently.

***

I also thought that the songs Connor performed at the spring fair were very powerful and moving! I'd never heard "Silent Legacy" before and unfortunately still haven't :( , but the lyrics were very intense, and "Imagine" has always been on of my favourite songs! I'm sure such a performance could have a very deep, positive effect on people.

 

Anyway I loved this chapter and really enjoyed it. I hope I didn't come off as critical; I didn't mean to be. Quite the opposite I thoroughly enjoy reading stories which present things in ways I wouldn't otherwise have thought about. It's no fun if the story goes exactly as I'd written it/tried to live it. Anyway awesome job, David! I really can't wait to read the next chapter and find out who Toby's doing!

 

Have an awesome day everyone and take care!

Kevin

Edited by AFriendlyFace
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Furthermore, I thought Connor wearing a gaudy gold crucifix with the main objective being to tick of Christians was just wrong. That's openly mocking someone's faith, and no faith, IMO, deserves to be openly mocked. It would have been an entirely different matter if he identified with some aspects of Christianity and was wearing it as part of his own spirituality (like Cody and his eclectic, yet respectful spiritualism). If that were the case then it would be entirely wrong for the Christians to redicule him on this point, he has the right to express his spirituality in any means he pleases. It would even have been one thing if he'd just wanted to wear it for no motivation other than thinking it was "pretty", but to wear it for the purpose of mockery leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

 

It would have been mocking if he'd been wearing an upside-down crucifix or some other intentionally blasphemous symbol. He was wearing a crucifix ... and he is gay. A gay guy can't/shouldn't wear a crucifix because some Christians are offended by gays? Sorry, but that's just B.S. And wearing a crucifix doesn't have to have anything to do with spirituality. I have crucifix earrings and necklaces, and I am nowhere close to being a Christian ... sometimes fashion is just fashion. No need to always read so much into things. B)

 

The narrative said, "I was kind of hoping it would piss off the Christian fundamentalists." It was the last line in the paragraph that was about his wardrobe, and was added as a kind of afterthought on his part. So, the way I see it, it's primary function was to complement his outfit, and served the secondary purpose of being a slight bite at the people who had the intention of causing trouble in the first place. Also, note that he (I) said "fundamentalists" ... in my mind, there's a big distinction between "Christians" and "Christian fundamentalists" ... I choose my words carefully. And, believe me, if I wanted to take a swipe at someone (or a group of people), it would be a lot more obvious than just a one-off comment/gesture like that ... gimme some credit here! ;)

Edited by LittleBuddhaTW
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I agree with the others, I think Ryan may have trouble handling his emotions, if he allows the full weight of Tobys illness to come down on him he might not be able to pull it back together. But if Toby's condition gets worse, he is probably going to fall hard. :wacko: Now lets see if Connor is mature enough to realize whats going on with Ryan, or if Ryans behavior will test their relationship to its limits. If he can't think straight about Toby's illness, there could be some misplaced aggression toward Connor and his doting over Toby. The lack of communication between those two has caused alot of anguish and misunderstanding before.

 

I had a really good mental picture of that concert, it was like I was right there with them. They finally did it! :2thumbs: The setting and the timing were fantastic and it was really erotic.

 

I didn't see Connors earing being any big deal, its not like he is offically OUT anyway, although he and Ryan, and playing for the GSA booth, haven't left much for people to wonder about. It's not like he jumped up on the piano, mooned the crowd, then yelled into the mic, "This is for you Bible thumpers"! :devil:

 

Good job David and Kitty! :D

 

Ex.

Edited by ex52tech
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Hey everyone :)

 

Thanks for responding to my previous post.

 

When I was going through this chapter, I had a feeling the parts involving religion were going to be a bit controversial. I personally don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. While I know that religion, like politics, is one of those things that can get people stirred up and cause dissension, it doesn't have to, if people are able to remain non-defensive.

 

For purposes of full disclosure, I was raised in a non-fundamentalist Protestant religion, which meant church every Sunday. What I learned about Christianity had to do with the things the Bible specifically says that Jesus said and taught, being the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes. Those have to do with how a person acts and treats other people. My observation is that those are what most mainstream Christian churches focus on. I can't remember as a child ever hearing much about the rapture or Leviticus or having to be "born again" or trying to "save" other people.

 

The way I read this chapter, when Connor referred to "Christians", he was not talking about mainstream churches. In my experience, generally speaking (and I know that a person can get into trouble making generalizations :) ), it's not the mainstream Christians who form clubs called "Young Christians" and picket GSAs.

 

Now the challenge I'd say this presents for a Christian who doesn't ascribe to the fundamentalist view is that certain more extreme or idiosyncratic sects have currently co-opted the term "Christianity" for their own exclusive use. Rather than focusing on the messenger, I guess I'd suggest a better approach might be to look at the message and find ways of taking back the term. Use it or lose it, in other words.

 

I'm aware there are probably people reading this who identify as fundamentalist, and I don't mean to offend anyone with this or say what they should or shouldn't believe. (Because one of my beliefs is that I don't have the right to say that, or the knowledge to know what's best for anyone. I have all I can do to know that for myself.)

The way I interpreted Kevin's post was not that gay guys should or shouldn't wear crucifixes. It was more about using the symbol of someone's beliefs purposely to mock or offend them. You've raised an additional point ... what about using someone's sacred symbol in a non-sacred way, for example, as a design element? It's like when I sometimes see an image of the Buddha used by Westerners in advertising for a cosmetic product. It's not meant to be offensive, but I can see how someone could see it as being insensitive. I usually laugh and see it as a wry reminder of the interesting times we live in. :) The image of the Buddha is not the Buddha, and a crucifix is not Christ.

first off I completely agree with Kitty's thoughts on the matter, and she did interpret what I meant in the way I meant it. Also, thank you Kitty, for pointing out that the "fundamentalists" are probably the ones more likely to be members of that club. I am guilty of not taking note of the fact that the likely constituency of the club in question ARE more likely to be the sort that do go on about "end times" and do the "fire and brimstone" thing.

 

It would have been mocking if he'd been wearing an upside-down crucifix or some other intentionally blasphemous symbol. He was wearing a crucifix ... and he is gay. A gay guy can't/shouldn't wear a crucifix because some Christians are offended by gays? Sorry, but that's just B.S. And wearing a crucifix doesn't have to have anything to do with spirituality. I have crucifix earrings and necklaces, and I am nowhere close to being a Christian ... sometimes fashion is just fashion. No need to always read so much into things. B)

actually I specifically allowed for both those possibilities.

It would have been an entirely different matter if he identified with some aspects of Christianity and was wearing it as part of his own spirituality (like Cody and his eclectic, yet respectful spiritualism). If that were the case then it would be entirely wrong for the Christians to redicule him on this point, he has the right to express his spirituality in any means he pleases.

I fully meant that gay people who identify as Christians, or indentify with aspects of Christianity shouldn't be hassled by Christians (Fundamentalist or otherwise).

 

Also:

It would even have been one thing if he'd just wanted to wear it for no motivation other than thinking it was "pretty",

Perhaps I didn't express it properly but what I meant was if he attached no meaning to it (respectful or disrespectful), and simply did like the way it looked I didn't have a problem with it.

 

Actually I don't have a "problem" with it anyway, even if he is being malicious or stereotyping. I don't have to agree with everything in a story to enjoy the story. Even in real life I don't have to completely agree with people's opinions, even on "important" matters, to be friends with them. If I met Connor in real life, and it was clear that he was purposely wearing something considered "sacred" in someone's religion (ANY religion), WITHOUT doing it through actual belief or simply as a fashion accessory, but instead with the intent to tick people off (EVEN people who didn't treat him with respect - two wrongs don't make a right), then I'd probably make it a point to explain my views on the matter (In a manner similar to how I just did). Then I'd just get over it. I'm fairly opinionated and I WILL state my opinion, but once I've made myself understood, I really don't care if I convert other people to my way of thinking or not. (which is the whole reason I'm posting for the 2nd time about this, because I wanted to clear up the fact that I do think it's fine for gay people (or any other group) to wear religious symbols out of sincere belief or simply as a fashion statement).

 

I've been close with all sorts of people of differing degrees of devoutness and/or agression toward various faiths. I don't think I've ever met anyone who's ever shared all my viewpoints on religion. Indeed it would probably be all but impossible since I have a very unique blend of beliefs (but then what fairly intelligent, open-minded, free-thinking person doesn't). I sincerely apologize if it sounded like I was attacking anyone, or operating from a position of "moral certainty". My own beliefs are that pretty much everything is ambiguous and relative; there's rarely, if ever, an absolute "right" or "wrong" and even if there is, IMO, it's a case by case interpretation.

 

Besides, David, you know how highly I regard you and SOOTB :hug: . I'm very sorry if I gave any offense. You're the author and you can write the story any darn way you please, and if you say you didn't mean it offensively (and I again I wouldn't care even if you did), then I'll happily accept that and shut up.

 

Anyway take care everyone and have a great day!

Kevin

Edited by AFriendlyFace
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What a poignant chapter!!!

 

I saw the announcement Friday, but due to the DNS change couldn't view it until now, or get into GA at all Saturday. It's now 2am Sunday, so I'll come back with more comments tomorrow, but for now just wanted to say that this was a great chapter, even though I keep saying "Oh, no, not Toby!".

 

The first thing I'd like to say is, THANK YOU (and Kitty too) for the AIDS parts. In an earlier chapter when Maggie told Connor he was OK because he had been given a fast HIV test, I nearly choked, so I'm delighted to see it clarified like this. Aids is nothing to take chances with.

 

IMHO, Ryan is in denial, and pulling away from Toby. This will come back to bite him BIGTIME if Toby gets worse, or doesn't make it, and/or if Ryan lets it drive a wedge between him and Connor. The reason for my hunch here is that I've seen plenty of people react just that way (taking the "oh, everything's ok, no big deal" denial route when a family member is gravely ill, and becoming distant from them. My Mother reacted this very way when she was told (against my wishes) late last year that I had a less then 50% chance of living through that week. It didn't bother me because I understood why she was reacting that way (this was WAY out of character for her, so it was obviously denial) but I can certainly understand how it would look to a lot of people, especially someone on the "sidelines" such as Connor is.

 

As for Toby having leukemia... OK, LB (B for Beelzebub! :P ), do you remember the following comments and replies in the Chapter 16 thread?

 

From my point of view, the presentation of the symptoms, especially the intermittent nature, does not fit with a cold. Just a hunch on my part, though. I hope I'm wrong.

 

Then again, perhaps it is just something minor and temporary, and LBTW just threw it in there to make some of us go crazy(er)???

 

Y'all are so pessimistic! :( Sheesh ...

 

 

You do realize that this quote shall appear frequently if Toby becomes gravely ill? :devil::devil::devil:

 

Well, LB, don't say I didn't warn ya... So, what do you think of my new sig file? :devil::devil::devil:

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Well, LB, don't say I didn't warn ya... So, what do you think of my new sig file? :devil::devil::devil:

 

I love it! hehe ;)

 

Glad you enjoyed the chapter! :D

 

I was so tired when I posted that, that I said it was 2am Sunday, when it was actually 2am Monday!

 

So, LB, do y'all still think that we were being pessimistic when we thought Toby's early symptoms meant Leukemia? :P:P:P:P:P:P:P:P

Edited by C James
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As usual, I'm not good making long comments.

 

1) Ryan needs to learn how to trust Connor better.

2) The Elton concert...was *snores*. Sorry, it's a matter of personal taste...I don't like Elton too much. I could tell you to make a Bj

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As usual, I'm not good making long comments.

 

1) Ryan needs to learn how to trust Connor better.

2) The Elton concert...was *snores*. Sorry, it's a matter of personal taste...I don't like Elton too much. I could tell you to make a Bj

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But if you killed me, then there would be no more chapters ... and the people looking forward to reading the two new serials I have planned might be sad ... and, of course, you'd be sending BoyNeedsTherapy and VLista into deep and potentially unrecoverable states of depression ... and think of poor Kitty! :(

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Why a quick, painless death? You could do so much with a chopstick before killing the person off in a hour or two. :lol:

 

Ahhhh, someone who enjoyes the finer points of creativity... :devil:

 

Toby shall be avenged! :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

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But if you killed me, then there would be no more chapters ... and the people looking forward to reading the two new serials I have planned might be sad ... and, of course, you'd be sending BoyNeedsTherapy and VLista into deep and potentially unrecoverable states of depression ... and think of poor Kitty! :(

Fine...I'll be merciful...

 

I'll find a twin. :D

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Okay, okay ... back to discussing the actual chapter and what happened (and what might happen in future chapters) instead of devising ways to kill me for making Toby's leukemia come back ... :P

 

Doesn't anyone else think that Ryan is totally hot in his baseball uniform??? Or is he hotter in his lacrosse uniform? Or maybe he should join the military, and we could see him in one of those uniforms ... hmmm ...

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Okay, okay ... back to discussing the actual chapter and what happened (and what might happen in future chapters) instead of devising ways to kill me for making Toby's leukemia come back ... :P

 

Ummm, does this mean that you prefer that we set up a new thread dedicated solely to plotting your demise? 0:)

 

As for the actual chapter... The more I think about it, the more I wonder why Maggie hasn't noticed that Ryan is pulling away from Toby...

 

Doesn't anyone else think that Ryan is totally hot in his baseball uniform??? Or is he hotter in his lacrosse uniform? Or maybe he should join the military, and we could see him in one of those uniforms ... hmmm ...

 

I liked the baseball uniform... And thought your description and portrayal was excellent. But for me to really take, ummmm, very intense notice, he would have to become a swimmer, diver, or water polo player, or something that causes him to be at least shirtless. :devil::devil::devil:

But, that's just my own particular preference.

Edited by C James
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well, nice chapter! (As always...)

 

I am not that mad at you for making toby become sick again because you reasonably can't kill him... right...?

 

I am mad at Ryan though... Then again, it's a nice thing that he becomes a little less perfect, maybe Connor's popularity is even going to rise above Ryan's now ^^ Well, hopefully you won't make him act too badly though, I like liking Ryan (does that even make sense?).

 

I agree with the comment on how Ryan certainly could have offered to bottom on their first night... I mean, I guess real couple are more flexible and don't always play the same part... (OK, since I'm not a gay guy, I guess I don't really know how it really goes as well)

 

A side question: I didn't even know what lacrosse was untill a few minutes ago (thank you google!); I lived in the US a couple of years ago (just for 1 year) and I have never heard of that sport, and now, I have read 2 stories that have a lacrosse team... Is that a popular sport actually?

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Okay, okay ... back to discussing the actual chapter and what happened (and what might happen in future chapters) instead of devising ways to kill me for making Toby's leukemia come back ... :P

***hides David***

Doesn't anyone else think that Ryan is totally hot in his baseball uniform??? Or is he hotter in his lacrosse uniform? Or maybe he should join the military, and we could see him in one of those uniforms ... hmmm ...

Yes, I'd say Ryan's pretty hot in his baseball uniform, I like the lacrosse better though. And NOOOO to the military uniform, I find those unattractive

 

 

As for the actual chapter... The more I think about it, the more I wonder why Maggie hasn't noticed that Ryan is pulling away from Toby...

Well for one thing I'd say Maggie has alot on her plate. I mean she's dealing with Toby's Leukemia, I'm sure that's very demanding emotionally, plus she has so many practical considerations to deal with at the same time. Then I imagine her attention is more likely to fall on Connor than Ryan. Connor's the one who's been traumatized, and is known for being emotionally unstable etc. Of the three kids in her charge the sad truth is that Ryan's probably "the least of her concerns" right now, and understandably, if regrettably so.

 

Also, even if she has noticed that doesn't mean she knows what to do about it. It's a very delicate situation and I'm sure the last thing she wants to do is convince Ryan that Toby really might die. Anything she does could potentially upset Toby and Connor more and will definitely upset Ryan. That's not a good position for a woman with a very sick child and an unstable ward to be in. I think we might see an intervention soon though, I just think for now at least we can forgive Maggie's reticence.

 

I am not that mad at you for making toby become sick again because you reasonably can't kill him... right...?

well of course since Toby is one of my favourite characters I want him to be okay, but I think his death could make for some very powerful, moving chapters. (I'm not in favour of this, I'm just saying...)

 

A side question: I didn't even know what lacrosse was untill a few minutes ago (thank you google!); I lived in the US a couple of years ago (just for 1 year) and I have never heard of that sport, and now, I have read 2 stories that have a lacrosse team... Is that a popular sport actually?

Naw, it's not that popular, but the uniforms are pretty hot for it! LOL, they're more reminiscent of soccer (football) uniforms. I've always been into soccer boys! ....well actually that's just wishful thinking on my part :P:boy: LOL in high school though it was definitely the soccer boys and the swim boys that held my attention the most. I hardly noticed the (American) football, basketball, or baseball players....well except the ones that were also on the scoccer or swim team. B)

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Well for one thing I'd say Maggie has alot on her plate. I mean she's dealing with Toby's Leukemia, I'm sure that's very demanding emotionally, plus she has so many practical considerations to deal with at the same time. Then I imagine her attention is more likely to fall on Connor than Ryan. Connor's the one who's been traumatized, and is known for being emotionally unstable etc. Of the three kids in her charge the sad truth is that Ryan's probably "the least of her concerns" right now, and understandably, if regrettably so.

 

Also, even if she has noticed that doesn't mean she knows what to do about it. It's a very delicate situation and I'm sure the last thing she wants to do is convince Ryan that Toby really might die. Anything she does could potentially upset Toby and Connor more and will definitely upset Ryan. That's not a good position for a woman with a very sick child and an unstable ward to be in. I think we might see an intervention soon though, I just think for now at least we can forgive Maggie's reticence.

 

Those are very good points. It's definitely a no-win situation, at best.

 

I sure do like the way that this story seems to be portraying the real psychological aspects of a life-threatening illness, especially the (assuming I'm right) denial and pulling away. It's all too common, and can be very hurtful if the person being "rejected" doesnt understand what is happening, and why.

 

well of course since Toby is one of my favourite characters I want him to be okay, but I think his death could make for some very powerful, moving chapters. (I'm not in favour of this, I'm just saying...)

 

ACK!

Please, please, don't be giving the Evil One any justifications!! Poor Toby! :P:P:P:P:P

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:(:(:( I started this story two days ago and finally got all caught up and now I want to unread this chapter.........I think I'll really be upset if Toby dies :( He's like my favorite charater along with Cody. Anyway, I love this story, LB. I just wanted to let you know :)
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:(:(:( I started this story two days ago and finally got all caught up and now I want to unread this chapter.........I think I'll really be upset if Toby dies :( He's like my favorite charater along with Cody. Anyway, I love this story, LB. I just wanted to let you know :)

 

Thanks, Nicko ... that really means a lot! :hug:

 

I'm really enjoying "My Jump Off" as well! :2thumbs:

 

*Hugz*

 

Buddha

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Thanks, Nicko ... that really means a lot! :hug:

 

I'm really enjoying "My Jump Off" as well! :2thumbs:

 

*Hugz*

 

Buddha

Its a really good story.....it's not all wacked out like a lot of the stories I read online. Actually, I was wondering why you're not on the main page yet, since in my opinion you're way better than some of the hosted authors that are on the main page.

 

 

 

BTW, thanks for the props on My Jump Off . Of course, I would've rather seen Conner and Ryan go to a Lil Flip concert, but I know you love Elton John :)

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Its a really good story.....it's not all wacked out like a lot of the stories I read online. Actually, I was wondering why you're not on the main page yet, since in my opinion you're way better than some of the hosted authors that are on the main page.

 

An author is only as good as their editor, and Kitty is probably one of the biggest reasons the story has turned out so well. She is definitely the unsung hero of this whole thing. I've definitely noticed how much of a difference there has been in your writing since you've had TalonRider helping you out, so I'm sure you understand! :D

 

And as for the "full hosted author" thing ... there's a good chance that could be changing in the next 24 hours or so ... keep posted for details ... ;)

 

*Hugs*

 

Buddha

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