PrivateTim

Feel free to cite any scientific, scholarly or medical study on the Madonna whore complex. Should be easy if there is a tremendous amount.

Everything that Alex has done has been all about Alex? Based on what? Was going to watch JJ skate and supporting him before he knew JJ was crushing on him all about Alex? People seem to be mad at Alex because Wade hurt Matt (who people HATED for two books by the way until we saw a story from Matt's POV). Maybe Wade didn't want to be treated like a princess, but wimp that Wade is he never talked to Alex about his issues in the bedroom he merely had tried to make Alex more aggressive and tried to modify Alex's behavior during sex, which is the exact wrong time to address issues in the bed. Alex didn't get Wade's passive-aggressive behavior and was caught off guard by Wade while they were having sex. It is Wade's fault that Alex didn't understand, not Alex's. As to how he had sex with Matt. I didn't hear any complaints. What "rage" did Alex have? We never even saw the scene, we have an off-handed, one sentence from Wade about it. If that is rage, what do you call Will's actions through half the books? Alex is not a "guest" at the house in Boston, he lives there, Will was the guest. As to Alex and his attitude about Will, surely he has heard what an oversexed, aggressive slut Will is. He actually waited until Will was 16 and didn't approach him before that. Sounds admirable to me. As to how to treat guests in your home, maybe we can recall how Will treated Ethan as a guest by aggressively going after Joe, who was Ethan's guest and Will did so without a thought to maybe Ethan and Joe were an item, it was all about what Will wanted. Who presented Alex as a classy, solid, monogamous, etc anything? That was all in Wade's mind. Alex certainly didn't present himself like that? He didn't even know Wade was a love sick puppy for him initially. Any notion about Alex was based in Wade's mind, not in anything Alex said or did. And no, the "Madonna/whore complex", if it exists at all, has not changed at all. It has to do with a man's feeling about women, not men. According to Freud it is rooted in the Oedipal complex of men and shapes how they feel about and treat women. You can't have an Oedipal complex that shapes how you feel about men unless your mother was a man, which even today, is still quite impossible. The "fact" that Alex has issues that could hurt JJ? There has been no fact established and even if there was an established fact, how could it hurt JJ? Having sweet, gentle sex? Being put on a pedestal? As noted JJ is very inexperienced other than with a very aggressive man who took sex from JJ. At this point no one has any idea what JJ likes in bed so it is quite premature to say that any behavior could hurt him. So what if he and Alex don't work out for a relationship, most relationships don't and they are painful when they don't. That is how one gets experience. The concern about talking to JJ about Alex is that the person contemplating talking to JJ about Alex is the person who ruins sports cars and wardrobes when people try to talk to him about his life. Pot, kettle, stones, glass houses and all that. "Hurt characters we care about" pretty much describes Will the entire second half of Paternity and apparently it is okay to hurt characters we don't care about, which is what Will does when he sleeps with the guy from Palo Alto, knowing he is in a relationship. I know that for the 4 billionth time I will be accused of being a Will hater and for the 4 billionth and first time I will say that Will is one of my favorite characters and narrators, but I don't understand why people excuse behaviors from him that others are called to account for. It would be nice to see consistent accountability for behaviors, no matter who is performing the behavior.

If the Madonna-whore complex was first postulated by Freud and Freud's theory was that it was Oedipal it by definition makes it a "straight thing" because it is only towards women from men. It is great if you want to fall back on the "Will is just a teen" argument, but if "Will is just a teen" then he doesn't get input on the adults lives because he doesn't have the life experience to make those kinds of judgments. You can't have it both ways, but people continue to want to. As to worrying about the experience gap between JJ & Alex, 1) it is not Alex's issue if JJ gets too hung up on him and 2) no one seemed to worry about the experience gap between Will and any of his intergenerational hook-ups.

Still at a loss to figure out what it is that Alex has done wrong. He didn't ask for Wade to fall for him and he didn't treat Wade badly, quite the opposite he treated Wade with great respect and care. And since he was unaware that JJ had a crush on him his interest in JJ's skating was genuine. Some people called him a "predator" because he was aggressive with Will, but when Will all but raped the contractor on Maui people sloughed it off with, 'well it was what the contractor really wanted anyway.' The only reason Will DIDN'T respond to Alex was because JJ liked him, otherwise it would have been 'what he really wanted' and they would have done the whorizontal mambo. The trouble with the whole notion behind this 'Madonna-whore complex' theory is that it is only seen in straight men in their attitude towards women and it isn't that they treat the woman they love with care and deference and then have wild unbridled sex with bad girls it is that they are unable to perform sexually with the women they put on pedestals. No lead in the pencil. The women they do have sex with are not just bad girls, but ones that are debased. Freud, who first identified the issue, thought it had its roots in Oedipal complexes, which is one reason it is seen in straight men. As to Will. Will is being Will, which means he cares mostly about Will and thinks he knows what is best for everyone concerned. He has continued to tell people what they should do and when they should do it and now he is poised to interfere in JJ's love life, while people interfering in his makes him go ballistic, but he is The Will, so it is okay. He didn't drive to Lafayette because he loves Zach, but because he loves Will and Will wanted sex with the guy he thinks he loves, so he shows up unannounced for his needs. Next up is Waikiki. He doesn't care that getting a room in the same hotel could expose his and Zach's relationship. Will just wants what he wants. He might even want to get caught. I can't think of any other reason for him to get a room in the same hotel when he has a choice of some 70 other hotels in Waikiki that are not the De La Salle team's hotel or the hotel where his family is staying. The De La Salle hotel will be full of parents, players, DLS staff, siblings, etc. Will is sure to be seen. It might be easy to explain his presence in the hotel lobby, but less convincing on a floor in the hotel or coming off an elevator. When Will and Zach do get caught the inevitable result is that Zach will hate Will for ruining all his dreams (maybe a yellow sports car gets torched?). At the pace they are going, they are sure to be caught and it is much more likely on a trip like the Oahu trip than being caught in CA where the group is more dispersed. Whether Will's desire to get caught is conscious or unconscious I don't think he has thought through how Zach will react when Will destroys the only thing Zach truly cares about. That is when this story will get interesting and less The Waltons. Goodnight John-boy.

Or you could have gone to Berkeley, never taken a puff ever and still get high every weekend just hanging out in the dorm

Except that anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal and not an objective study or studies. And Matt, when you've lost NPR you know it is over Marijuana May Hurt Developing Teen Brain

Yes, but there is the philosophical belief, which I share with you since I am a little L libertarian and then the reality of breaking laws and getting caught doing so. That does cause problems.

Will was rude and dismissive of Jeanine long before she became ill and long before she took up her interest in JJ's career. I'd even argue that it was Will's treatment of her that both drove her to JJ and contributed to her mental condition. That Will "smokes pot no more than his dad" et al isn't a justification. He is a 15 year old. There are more dangers in marijuana for youth than there is for adults. A person wise beyond their years would make an individual decision, not be a "monkey see, monkey do" drone. You also ignore his drinking and going to 21+ clubs at 15. The sex with older guys shows how poor Will's judgment is for the danger he places them in for what is important to him (getting his rocks off). How was Will supportive of Brad when he broke into Brad's bedroom? He, at 15, decided he knew better than his father, whom his father should sleep with. How supportive of Matt has he been dating back to when we first met Matt? How much did he treat Matt like family the entire time Matt dated Wade? How supportive of JJ was he when he was sleeping his way through the Norway competition? The common thread has been that Will does what Will wants to make Will happy and anyone who gets in his way gets run over. Calling concern over Will's behavior as hate for Will is a straw man. The sect that thinks Will has this infallible moral compass and is wise beyond his years dismisses any evidence, especially textual examples, of his poor judgment and then wants to fall back on the "he is only 15" argument. Okay, fine, if he is only 15 then maybe he shouldn't dictate to his father whom he can sleep with; maybe he shouldn't decide how Zach's parents should interact with him and he shouldn't interfere in their relationships. What Zach is pursing could cause irreparable damage with his parents and force his brothers to choose sides in a family fight. I had an actor friend in high school get emancipated about 6 months before his 18th birthday because he thought his mother's rules (10PM curfew during the week, 12AM on weekends and no overnight "guests") were unreasonable. She said if he pursued emancipation they were done. He did. They are. And everyone is miserable. It has been a festering sore for 20 years and blown apart the family (parents divorced, grandparents choosing sides, the whole 9 yards). Of course the capper is that the relationship he was in that seemed oh so important, important enough to seek emancipation didn't last three months beyond emancipation. Then of course, just like his mother predicted, he foolishly blew through the large amount of money he had made in his acting career in about 3 years when it should have been enough to see him through his whole life. Point being, I've seen what can be the consequences of a teen thinking he knows best and making life choices that were not good because they were so shortsighted. I have now seen it professionally as well. I've been pretty thorough in using textual references to support what I've had to say about Matt, Will, Zach and the rest, in as much as the text exists. It isn't angst. Will is defended in all his actions by people who believe him to be Will the Wise, who is smarter than the adults around him and knows better what should be done. It is okay to have the swing from maturity to irrationality because most 15 year olds have parents or guardians to moderate their behavior and keep their behaviors from being dangerous or destructive. The difference is that Will is emancipated, which is fine when it comes to Will making decisions about himself, but when he presumes to make decisions for Brad and Matt and even Tony, who should have died two books ago, he steps into areas he doesn't have the maturity to assess the situations and areas where it is really none of his business. He would have thrown one of his tantrums (as in the previous chapters) and maybe burned someone's car.

Yes and their screen names all have "boi" and "kewl" somewhere in them even though they are no longer either

If you do, please get fat all over..... I hate those formerly skinny twinks who only have Dunlaps (my belly dun' lap over my belt) but still have narrow hips, a spoon chest, skinny legs and pencil thin arms.

I won't copy all of that to respond, but we can go back and look at the stories and the discussions of the time. Respect is a two way street. When did 13+ Will ever respect Jeannie? He blew her off and treated her like hired help because Brad let him get away with it. If Will didn't like what Jeannie said he went to Brad to countermand what she had said. That was very bad parenting by Brad and bit him in the ass because it was part of Will's "I know better" attitude or "if it displeases me, I ignore it." Of course there are clueless adults and wise teens, but there are far more wise adults and clueless teens than the other way around. No disrespect, but I am far closer to my teen years than you and remember them well. I was much smarter than Will at that age and knew far better what was good for me and what wasn't than my parents did..... or so I thought. It is only in retrospect from a more mature viewpoint did it occur to me that maybe at 15 I wasn't as smart or well informed as I thought I was. And wait.... Will didn't fall into the traps of frustrated kids such as booze and drugs? (what about the "sex" trap) We are talking about Will, who drinks like a fish, smokes weed like it is no one's business and frequents gay 21 and over clubs, right? Will of the 30 or so sexual partners at 15, half of whom were illegal for him to have sex with? If that is "as much restraint" as most of the teens you know, then I might suggest you know some pretty wild teens? Will does not worship everything JP & Stef have to say no matter how much he might love and respect them. If need be I can go back to the textual references where he blew off or was mad at Stef. JP examples are fewer, but not non-existent. There are also different kinds of respect. There is the "I respect you as a person" which is different from "I respect that you have authority for me". It is possible to not respect your parents because they are so "mean and clueless" compared to all the cool parents your friends have, but recognize that they still have the responsibility for you until you are 18 and that when they give you a midnight curfew on weekends you have to respect that authority or suffer the consequences. Will has never had to suffer consequences for his destructive behaviors.

The point is that Will is 15 at this time and is portrayed and defended as a 15 year old who is wise well beyond his years and always knows better than the adults around him what is best, not just for himself, but for others as well. And the point on this one is that most 15 year olds have parents or other adults to moderate these wild swings and reduce the damage the teen can do to themselves. Will has no such restraint on him. He might consider what a JP or Stef has to say, but he has had his moments where he blows them off as well and thinks he knows better than them. He absolutely disregards(ed) anything that Brad, Robbie or his mother might have had to say.

So like sequence shots.....

Does anyone else want to see pics of B1ue in his skinny jeans???

Fun, interesting chapter. You do wonder what is up with Cody, but I suspect it has to do with fears he has. I like the young earl, it will be interesting to see what he is all about. I guess I am going to have to go back a few books and read up on Kevin. I don't really remember him.

OMG we've jumped the shark! A Granger crossover episode. All we need now is a spinoff of the zany antics of the Hispanic driver/cook and I can get you a package deal on the CW Network How long will it be before the ghost of George has sex with Will and I can open negotiations on a movie deal?

I'd invite you to our BBQ Sunday except the sushi keeps falling through the grill.....

The set up for the drama is the growing nature of this trip..... Brad, Wade, Matt...... Zach & Will..... all on one trip? A re cipe for dis aster. ;P

It is always amusing in a discussion when because you won't switch your belief to the other person's view, you are the one being unreasonable. Here are the examples of "Matt the sounding board, but not influencing Zach": “He really values his relationships with his father, with JP, with Stef, with Wade, and with you. You just shit on two of those.” Dude, there are guys at Stanford that would give their left nut to do something like that with JP, and you just tossed it away like it’s no big deal.” Then you’ve got your advisor, who wants you to do this deal in Nebraska. He doesn’t care about you growing as a person; he just cares about maximizing how much exposure you get. (which is his job by the way) How is that not Matt telling Zach what he should do? It is very passive-aggressive. Despite his later, "I'm not telling you what to do", he already has. Who cares what Pete Carroll thinks? Why Zach does, because that is where Zach wants to play football, so Zach cares very much what Pete Carroll thinks. It isn't a case of not knowing about the camp, obviously he would know know about the camp. What he would not know until he started to promote Zach was that Pete Carroll, Urban Meyer, Joe Paterno el al want to see Zach Hayes at it. I am starting to get the idea you don't really understand how D1 college football works and what the recruiting process is. And of course Zach is spineless. He has dumped Will once already in Claremont, and dumped him again in a manner for the Nebraska camp. Now because Zach is with Will and his family he stands up to his parents who aren't there. How will he react the next time he falls in their sphere? Will didn't "share" with Zach, he screamed at Zach and bullied and cowed him into submission. A mature person who sees things clearly, would have sat down calmly with Zach and talked things through. Which is exactly what Will did not do. He through down a gauntlet, stormed out of the room and slammed the door behind him. I can point to all these behaviors in the text of chapter 26. Where is this clear thinking Will who shared things with Zach?

My interpretation is that Zach saw Will getting angry so he tried to shift the focus to Barry. A not uncommon defense mechanism, not a contradiction. Zach, the spineless wonder, seems to move in any direction he gets a blowing wind from. While Matt didn't tell Zach what do decide, he picked on what Matt was saying as to what was more important. It was clear that Matt thought Europe was more important so it was natural that Zach would bend the direction of that pressure. I will repeat what I said earlier, Pete Carroll couldn't give a rip about an internship with a Stanfurd professor. It is more logical that if it was a bigger than Barry realized thaten it was because Barry got that feedback after he started to promote Zach, not because he is trying to break up Zach and Will.

Several thoughts..... last things first, Zach has said pretty consistently that nothing is more important to him than football and his future in football and that includes Will and Will knows that. We can go back a few pages in the discussion where I brought up the point that that Will chafe against those priorities and it was going to cause problems (or I can go back and find the relevant texts). Next, Mark is taking some poetic/dramatic license with the camp/exhibition. The combines for high school hadn't really started by 2002. The gold standard is the National Underclassman Combine and their "Elite 100" has become crucial to athletes getting recruited and the final combine is broadcast on ESPN. There were camps of course before the NUC 100 and there were ones that were more important than others, but nothing on the scale of the NUC 100. If you can provide textual evidence of the "few contradictions" that make it clear that the camp (exhibition) wasn't important, but was just a "plot" I am willing to listen, but in reference to the scene of the blow up where Will talks about "vows" and "promises", I cited the extent of the vows and promises in post #327 and it didn't sound like a vow or promise to me, just a general understanding about the Europe trip. Again, people have to remember that Barry has been Zach's advisor less than three weeks. No one knows why or how this exhibition became important, did Barry receive a phone call from a college coach(es) where he was told to have his best prospects there? Did Barry send out information about Zach to camps and college coaches, as he would have done when he became Zach's advisor, and now invites are coming in from more camps for him? That speculation seems as valid as the speculation over the "conspiracy" between Barry and Wally & Clara. In fact, if Barry is as sharp as he has been portrayed, he would have figured out that Zach's backers, Brad Schluter et al were far more important than Zach's parents in the scheme of things.

The indignation was at all script writers like Josh Schwartz who try to write about things they nothing about; i.e. athletics, fraternity & sorority houses; coaches, cops, etc. I don't know if Josh Schwartz had even actually been in Orange County when he wrote The O.C. It was written from a typical Los Angeles County viewpoint of what Orange County was like. Having lived in several different counties in So Cal growing up I got to see what they were really like vs how they were presented.

When my grandfather was born in 1930, he was born in the French Hospital of Los Angeles and the area was Los Angeles' Little Italy and there were smatterings of the previous French community still there. Remnants from those days include Philippe the Original (restaurant where the French owner, Philippe, invented the French Dip) and Little Joe's Italian Restaurant. Little Joe's was in business for decades, but gave way to urban renewal in 2013 when they tore down the building.

I think I'll pick the LA Kings.

Hate for Simon Legree led to the Civil War, hate for Phil Connor and Durham led to the FDA, and hate for Bob Ewell led to the passage of the civil rights acts. Never sell literature short. Mr. Arbour is several notches better than Harper Lee.