AFriendlyFace

That would be my understanding of YY as well. Hmm, that's not completely true. I mean it is, but it's not the whole story. Variations do occur such as triple X syndrome (also known as Trisomy X) or XYY syndrome or Klinefelter's syndrome But yeah, as far as I know I don't think YY would be viable. In other words I don't think a YY baby would be carried to term. I could very easily be wrong of course. **shrug** -Kevin

Is it appropriate for you to tell me what FTW stands for? Don't worry about being "cut off" from the gay community. You may lose contact with your current friends (although if you really try I'm sure you can avoid that as well), but you can always re-establish contact at your new school in your new community Good Luck I'm sorry to hear about your ex, it is great that you and Michael have formed a close friendship though Beasty, I am so proud of you! Good luck with the activism and stuff Also, I just might go check out that thread. I hadn't really gotten around to reading it. That's awesome! You'll find that that's usually the case. I mean obviously the majority of conversations I have with my gay friends have absolutely nothing to do with being gay, or else being gay is simply an incidental part of that. That sounds wonderful! LOL, thanks, Menzo Actually I have a very positive bias toward lesbians (beyond just getting along with them I'd say). I think it's just life experiences. I've had quite a few very positive experiences with different lesbians, and they've always been there for me through rough times. As a result I automatically tend to trust them more and assume I'll like them when I first meet one. LOL, and coincidentally as I was replying to this thread I was sporadically texting back and forth with two of them -Kevin

I'm most certainly with Graeme on this one, on all points! Eugenics, while it might sound good on paper, can be a very dangerous and destructive thing in practice. Obviously, as Graeme pointed out the Nazi's did horrible things in the name of eugenics. I think we would also be foolish to think that gay people could never fall victim to eugenics if the rich, powerful, and homophobic had their way. I don't know about you guys, but I would find it remarkably appalling and all around blood boiling if people attempted to eliminate gay people from the gene pool, even if they didn't do anything to existing gays. Anyway, I think we (I) have gone off topic. I think Graeme's also quite right in that we would need to be certain that the children would be as healthy and safe as traditionally conceived kids. However, I most definitely support the idea in general as well as the (ethical of course) research in this area! I think it's wonderfully exciting! People often get up in arms when things are done to prevent or encourage conception that wouldn't normally take place. However, I most definitely favour this completely as long as the practices are safe. People should have kids when they're ready to and when they really want to, and they really shouldn't when they're are not. Just my thoughts, Kevin

Hi everyone! Graeme's comment about my "straight guy friends" thread being biased toward people who had a lot of gay friends got me thinking, and I'm sure he's right. For the last couple of years I've been very active in the GLBT community in my city, and I know alot of gay people. I almost exclusively go to gay bars and clubs, I belong to various equal rights and activism groups. Indeed, I think I want my long-term career to actively involve, if not be centered on gay rights, gay culture, and/or gay support. I also tend to hang out and go places in the "gay district" whenever possible, the parties I attend are usually hosted and attend by gay people, and of course all of my closest friends are either GLBT themselves, or actively supportive. So yeah, I kinda forget sometimes, especially here at GA which I consider to be yet another part of the gay community I love, enjoy, and am actively involved in, that not everyone who is gay knows a lot of gay people. Of course I know this intellectually, but it's something I sorta forget. Anyway, I guess the primary function of this poll/thread is actually to gage other people's level of involvement in the gay community, but of course mostly to gauge how many other gay people they know and what their degree of comfort and closeness with these people is. My poll results were, I have tons of gay friends, my best friends are gay, and I'd like more gay friends (they're delightful! They're just like candy! They come in all sorts of delicious flavours and varieties and I could happily have them all day long if I weren't concerned about them going to my butt (kidding!) ) So what are your experiences and situations? Take care all and have an awesome day! -Kevin

That sounds like a very healthy attitude! LOL, I actually knew what was...I can't quite comprehend why one would be so excited about owning one, but I know what one is. The only thing I've ever been excited about getting for my vehicle is Margaret (my GPS). LOL, I was going to say I'd probably enjoy the company of a metro straight guy friend more than regular straight guys. At least we could go shopping together, or get our hair done. I have this problem with my close female friends. They all eventually turn out to be lesbians! It doesn't piss me off, but it does amaze me. Hmm, why do I suspect you don't mean like 'the centers of photographs' or 'the glass on their mirrors' with that comment? EDIT: Sorry, I cross posted with Graeme. For some reason I have a tendency to forget that not all gay people know a lot of other gay people in real life. Anyway, you could still want MORE straight male friends, even if you've already got plenty. Sorry for the thoughtlessness though.

Hmm, well I certainly agree that there may not be very much practical reason to further discuss it. I was just having a really good time discussing it. Indeed, I can say without reservation that I've enjoyed this thread more than any other in recent memory (not that I haven't enjoyed the others as well of course). Also, I feel like discussing it and thinking about it so deeply has helped me further flesh it out in my own mind. It's given me new things to think about as well. Finally, I feel as though I know additional (and very relevant information IMO) about the people involved in this discussion. I do feel a bit closer to them That certainly makes sense, and I'll sit here and define my concept of a moral system all day (and enjoy it ), but of course when it comes down to it I agree that the important thing is just that it works for me. -Kevin

Would he object to you being more out in these contexts? I assume that the part about wanting to sit down with other guys in your life that you know are gay and just be frank with them would of course more than likely end up outting him as well, so I suppose I can see his point there (although of course personally I would certainly be comfortable being out to other gay people...but then I'm pretty out in general so I suppose it is different). My question then, is would he have a problem with you going to the Dallas convention by yourself (or would you have a problem with this?) Just because he doesn't want to go meet and mingle doesn't seem like a reason for you not to. I mean especially in this context none of us have ever even met him, nor are we ever likely to unless he wants to meet us. He'd be no more out either way. He would still just be "Tom's boyfriend" in our minds, just as he is now. Just curious, Kevin

Hi everyone, This poll is only about our friendships with straight guys. I've recently become very aware that several of my friends long for more or closer friendships with straight guys. A few of my friends already seem to have a few, or a few very good ones, and they're always trumpeting them to be the best thing since sliced bread. Frankly, I don't really see the big appeal. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to criticise straight guys. I'm sure they can make really excellent friends, especially on a case by case basis. As a whole though, I'm not super eager to befriend them. A little about my history. From kindergarten through high school most of my closet friends were straight guys, with only a few notable exceptions. I had very satisfying friendships with them, and I never doubted their loyalty. I've never actually had a notable bad experience with a straight guy, and certainly not one I used to be close with. It's not like I've gotten "burned" or anything. Instead, it's more life I've grown away from them. I wasn't out till after high school nor did I have any interest in being so. Once I came out though, and developed more friendships with other gay guys, lesbians, and straight women I found that I just "clicked" better with them. I felt more connected. Don't get me wrong, I really cared about my old straight friends, it just felt like I didn't have much in common with them anymore, and the conversations and activities with the other three demographics were usually much more interesting and satisfying. Gradually I lost touch with my straight male friends. Several of them I miss, and I suppose I really ought to make an effort to reconnect. However, I really only miss them because I used to care alot about them and we used to share our lives. Making new straight guy friends just isn't as appealing without the old history, and even with the old friends, given our geographic distance and completely different interests, goals, and life styles (many of which have nothing to do with sexuality and are instead simply related to people going different directions after high school), I don't see how we'd maintain a re-established friendship. Anyway, point is, I have fond memories of these guys and I'd be happy to see them, but in the same way that I'd be happy to see an old friend whom I've lost touch with in any of the other demographics. As things stand right now, I don't have any close friendships with straight guys. I have a few casual, pleasant friendships with some guys from church, and I always develop casual friendships with my male-coworkers, but while I've gone with them on group outings and parties and stuff, I can't think of any times in which I felt compelled to socialize with any of them on a one-on-one basis. I'm really quite satisfied with this. I have quite a few very close gay male and lesbian friends, and some really significant friendships with straight girls. I find this more than satisfying socially (usually I love it, but sometimes I even wish I had a little more time to myself). So I guess what I'm asking is: What's the big appeal? What exactly do you get from your friendships with straight guys that you can't from anyone else? (I usually get the generic "guy stuff" answer, but I get the guy stuff from my gay male friends). Do you yourself have a longing for more straight guy friendship? As a former psychology major I can't help but try to analyze people (okay, actually enjoy it ). My conclusion is that most gay males who want more friendships with straight males are trying to work out earlier feelings of rejection that they experienced from straight males. They find it particularly affirming to their masculinity and self-esteem to have friendships with these straight males. I can get that I suppose, and if that's the case then as long as they're fairly aware of it and still accept themselves, I guess it can be healthy. Personally though, I feel like I've "had my fill" of friendships with these guys, and I actually tend to find my friendships with GLBT people more satisfying and affirming. With straight women...I guess I just often do find them interesting and find that we "click" fairly well. Of course I'm completely labeling and stereotyping people. I'm aware of that. I don't actually see my friends as "gay guy", "straight girl", "lesbian", "straight guy". I see them all as individuals and I relate to them on an individual basis. I'm just generalizing here. Obviously I can easily imagine meeting a straight guy I click really well with and having him become a close friend. It's certainly possible and if it happened then of course I would be glad. I would just be glad because "hey look a new friend". His gender and sexuality would be incidental. So thought? BTW: my poll answers were, I have a few straight guy friends, most of them are casual, and I'm comfortable with things as they are. Take care all, Kevin

It ends in "@msn.com" I believe the only way you could have one of these is if you'd at one point had MSN as an ISP

Fascinating article! I really like it's central message that gay and straight relationships have a lot to learn from each other! I certainly can't imagine yelling very often (if ever) during an argument with a partner, so this seems to hold true. It's not our fault we're innately witty I agree with the speculation and explanations offered by the article and the other poster in this thread for the most part. Fascinating! I'm not sure what I think about this. Too much unresolved tension over a long period of time would certainly sour me on the relationship. However, apathy does seem pretty destructive too. Obviously, the idea solution would be to feel, express, and resolve the tension as it arises. Failing that, which of the two options (prolonged tension or apathy) would I find more damaging to my relationship...well I would certainly think tension intellectually. Perhaps I would find it to be different in the actual relationship, but I think unresolved tension would burn me out and make me break up more quickly than apathy. Apathy might be more personally painful in the long-run if after several years I found myself in a loveless, unsatisfying relationship but lacked the momentum to leave it. But that's precisely the point, I would endure the apathy longer whereas I'd have probably long ago resolved or walked out on the tension. I'm going to disagree. I do agree that the researchers aren't making perfectly comparable comparisons, but I think that's almost impossible to do in the first place, and it's certainly impossible if we're discussing US couples who can't have a federally sanctioned marriage at this time. The best they can do is ask long-term gay couples who "consider" themselves to be married to participate. Also, I think that while people may possibly be mislead by and not realize these differences, I think that some research and information is certainly better than none. Also, the article itself seems to handle these differences (and indeed discuss them) in an open, sensitive manner. If someone does conclude the wrong thing, I think that's a problem of the person and not the research. Also, I feel like this article's general positive slant outweighs any potential harm. Also, while I won't quote them, I think Zot, Rec, and Jamie made some really excellent points! I certainly have every confidence that you guys will be just fine Hmm, yes and no IMO. I think younger people in general might face more difficulties in maintaining a close intimate relationship simply because they may change and evolve as people, and there's also so many external factors in their lives at that age (school, work, family, etc.) that could pull them apart. This is true for gay, straight, and lesbian youth IMO. Once you're older and more settled in on you career, place to live, and familial role I think it gets a little bit easier. I see a very positive trend among today's gay youth in terms of their attitudes toward relationship, self-esteem, and general psychological health and I think these things will certainly be major boons to them when they form their relationships! Have an awesome day all Kevin

That sounds like a good theory. I'm a tad confused I think. Logging into MSN how? You mean logging in then logging out of the email address twice in a row? Using the messenger (which is actually linked to the hotmail account ) or logging on to MSN as a browser (which I don't think I've done in a good 6 or 7 years). EDIT: I just tried logging out of the email account and then logging back in again and it still did the same thing.

You succeeded in scaring me...till I realized that I don't mind if the government has access to my coupon offers, ads about penile enlargement, and links to straight porn

Personally, I think that's his business. It wouldn't be a good enough reason for me to stay in the closet in general. It may be a good enough reason for me to not come out to said Mormon parents, but in any case I respect Tom's prerogative to choose. (I'm sure you weren't actually criticising his freedom to do so either, as much as you were stating your opinion) I'm sorry that happened to you, Menzo. Obviously I could prattle on with clich

Hi everyone, I just thought I'd pose a question to those more technologically savvy than myself. Recently, for about the last two weeks I would say, I've been noticing a very odd problem with one of my email accounts. I have several email accounts including an exceedingly old MSN account (back before broadband was common and MSN was actually my dial-up ISP) and a much more recent hotmail account. Anyway obviously I now log into both using the hotmail page. Well there's no issue at all with the hotmail account I only mention it as a relevant contrast. However, every time I first attempt to log into the MSN account it tells me my password is incorrect and to try again. I then type my password again and it logs me on. At first I was barely cognizant of this occurrence. I assumed that I'd made a typo while typing too quickly. Then I noticed that I always seemed to "make a typo" on my first attempt, yet never on my 2nd. So for the past week I've been very carefully typing my password just as it's supposed to be. It still tells me it's incorrect on the first try, then I type the identical password again and it happily logs me in on the 2nd attempt. It hasn't logged me in a single time on the first try since I've noticed this happening. So anyone know why (or have a theory)? My password is not incorrect, I'm not mistyping it, and I'm not doing anything at all different the 2nd time. I don't particularly care since it's not that big a deal to just re-type it. However, I am very curious, and I'm also concerned that this could be the beginning of a more serious problem. The only thing I've been able to guess is that perhaps the MSN account is too old? Or maybe I have some sort of very odd virus? **shrugs** Take care all and thanks for any info/suggestions, Kevin

Any other thoughts from anyone? Especially those we haven't heard from yet?

As Tom said, I think all children should be supported. Seriously though, I can understand your hesitation, but once we get over the initial shock would really be that much different from test tube babies or infertility treatments? (which of course I happen to support) -Kevin

So what you mean is, it might just look greener because there's a topless girl laying on it?

I agree that that can often be a major and unfortunate outcome if not done very carefully...well actually maybe it's inherently impossible unless the characters are themselves sexually ambiguous. There seems to be a major disagreement about semantics going on! This is my definition and understanding of "slash" as well. And this is my definition of "gay fiction" Semantically I'm definitely in complete agreement with Graeme Once again, as I've come to expect from you now, I find your post incredibly insightful, Corvus My primary reason for writing gay fiction (not that I do it particularly often ) could be best summed up as a desire for creative expression of something which will add to gay culture. Have an awesome day everyone, Kevin

*gasps* the conclusions some people jump to! -Kevin

**inserts tongue firmly in cheek** That problem begs for an obvious solution

Well this is certainly nifty! Thanks for the info, Ixyam! Hmm, failing some sort of odd, painful, destructive process of which I am unaware, I can't imagine objecting to this on moral grounds. (I mean I can't imagine finding it objectionable...I can't imagine certain other individuals not finding it so) LOL, I'm so bi-polar on this issue. You'd be hard pressed to find a more vociferous proponent of (over)population control than myself...and yet I undoubtedly agree more with Tom than Menzo in terms of what my personal feelings would be in the situation. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for adopting, and see it as a noble and worthy thing. Indeed the chances I'll some day undertake it are quite high...still for whatever reason my own biological child does hold a certain appeal Take care all -Kevin

Excellent point, corvus! As Trab also pointed out, I think in many ways this gets to the crux of the matter. Who are we trying to make happy? The artist/writer or the general public? Whose wishes and satisfaction are paramount? I won't even begin to answer that question or venture an opinion right now, but I think that is key point. LOL a noble result from ignoble motives!

What an awesome post, Tarin! You rock! That's wonderful! I think it's important to really think about these things and I'm glad you're considering it I'm sure you'll have amazing success with this as well (precisely because you are taking the time to examine what you want and how to get it!) Hmmm Hmmm again Well first off, I have to admit that I'm kinda unlikely to date someone more than a few years older than me anyway (ideally I tend to be interested in guys my age. If not I prefer a bit younger to older), so I suppose it's all a moot point really. However, if we're just straight up talking about whether it's more or less acceptable for younger guys to be closet than older guys... Well, I'm very conflicted on this. As someone under 30, I think there's a huge tendency for us to be less patient with the older generation in terms of coming out. We see it as, "well, they've got their own life, they don't need anyone's approval, they aren't dependent on anyone, what's taking them so long?". I think this will pretty much be true as our generation ages and passes 30. What we must remember is that the older generations grew up in a completely different context. It is much more acceptable to be gay today than it was 20 or 30 years ago! I think this difference in society really is something that people will internalize to some extent in their formative years. Don't get me wrong, I agree that objectively the majority of older people don't have as rational a reason as they may think to remain in the closet (of course some may, but just generally), at least not with regards to external factors. However, I think there's a great deal more internal pressure on them than there is on the younger folks. We, for the most part, have grown up thinking they have a problem if they don't accept us (and I would agree with that of course). Many of the older generation may have grown up thinking that they themselves had the "problem" by being gay in the first place. We must further remember that, particularly in the gay male culture, there's a premium on youth. I'm not particularly worried about it because I 1) expect older gays to become more visible as our generation does age, and 2) expect to take many if not most of the friends and resources I have now with me into older age. But I would be much more overwhelmed trying to come out at 30 than 20, and a great deal more overwhelmed than that trying to come out at 40, 50, or older than at 20. The pressures a younger person (say 20 or below) faces on average deal with things like parental acceptance (and reliance on these parents), fear of bullying/ostracism at school, and in general more physical, material threats. These are extremely real and serious, and by no means am I trying to marginalize them or encourage kids to come out before they are ready, able, and safe. I also realize that there can be a great deal of internal confusion and angst as well. I just think the younger generation has opportunities and resources that have never been available before. In sum, I guess what I'm getting at is that older folks may have more internal difficulties coming out, and younger folks may have more external difficulties, but individuals in both groups can easily face the opposite to the same or a greater degree. Happily though, I think individuals in both groups may find the coming out process easy and relatively painless Anyway, let's cut each other some slack Take care all Kevin

Yet again we're in agreement

Indeed I learned who Wally Szczerbiak is today Once again, I've got to agree with Menzo. Well, contrary to what my last several posts might indicate, I actually tend to be very trusting until someone gives me a reason why I shouldn't be. I'm not just talking about safe sex exactly, I am going to be very cautious with that, even in a serious relationship, but in general... For example there are several guys right now that I'm really close with platonically and thinking about it, I'd have a lot of trouble not trusting them almost completely right away if we ever did get into a relationship. I think Menzo's strategy is more sensible, but I do tend to be ruled by my heart and emotions in these matters. -Kevin